00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.11 03:15:28 --- quit: rob_ert (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) 06:57:16 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth 07:45:59 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-64-175-123.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:59:14 hi futhin 07:59:30 any good news? 08:19:56 hi 08:20:16 good news? almost finish reading the book Thinking Forth. it's due back today 08:20:31 s/finish/finished/ 08:20:44 i recommend Thinking Forth 08:20:46 to you 08:20:51 and everybody else 08:26:30 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 08:26:52 hi rob 08:27:25 Hey futhin :) 08:27:26 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 08:27:44 howdy folks 08:28:10 howdy qless 08:28:12 Hey hey :) 08:28:23 qless: you should have autojoin #forth :P 08:28:28 heya rob_ert, futhin, what's shakin? 08:28:41 <-- get's notified, and then has to wait 2 minutes before you get on #forth!! 08:29:00 <--- uses gaim which isn't exactly a 'full featured' irc client 08:29:13 use a full featured ine : 08:29:15 one * 08:29:28 naah 08:30:02 someday when i have free time in my retirement home, i'll improve gaim to do all the stuff i want 08:30:18 qless: why not use ircii ? 08:30:29 or bx 08:30:51 futhin, don't like bx, ircii is nice, but i'm running X11 so might as well use something graphical 08:31:08 then use x chat 08:31:12 futhin: is Thinking Forth available in electronic form? 08:31:13 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust242.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 08:31:21 onetom: nope :( 08:31:26 good question though 08:31:27 x-chat is nice too, but its overkill 08:31:30 Hey I440r 08:31:36 hi 08:31:41 i i440r 08:31:44 hi 08:31:51 mrreach was saying it would be nice to get Thinking Forth and Starting Forth in electronic form, online 08:32:08 making changes to time.f rite now - making it calculate the current year, day, time etc from "time since epoh" 08:32:09 heh 08:32:12 hi qless 08:32:24 futhin: yeah, id also b happy 2 c Starting Forth online 08:32:27 qless: then use a dang x term and run ircii.. make the background transparent or put a picture in, and that'll be X'y enuff for you 08:32:29 i think starting forth is better :) 08:32:40 where is mrreach ? 08:32:50 futhin: i only have it in a poor xerox format 08:33:15 i440r: no, Thinking Forth is better.. it talks about software design, it doesn't teach you Forth at all, but I think it's a pretty good book to read for Forth programmers 08:33:17 onetom i can tell you how to get a copy of a first edition starting forth :) 08:33:20 futhin, but then i wouldn't get my nice pop-up window that says, "Futhin is online, probably goofing around procrastinating again" :-) 08:33:39 u know he "appologises" now for what he said about oop in that book ? 08:33:45 wow, gaim is powerful 08:33:46 complete reversall of opinion 08:33:48 i440r: what?! 08:33:53 yup 08:33:57 leo brodie likes oop now 08:34:05 OMG!! OMG!! 08:34:13 i agreed with his argument against OOP 08:34:13 go google his web page 08:34:16 in the book 08:34:28 brb 08:34:37 onetom: you got usenet figured out now? 08:34:56 how can leo brodie like OOP? wasn't he influenced by chuck moore? does chuck moore use OOP now? lol 08:35:13 qless: not yet 08:36:22 I440r: how? 08:36:29 ? 08:36:31 how what 08:36:35 I440r: how can i get a copy of a first edition starting forth? 08:36:45 oh hehe hang on ill get you a email :) 08:37:06 when the book went out of print this guy baught all the books the publishers had left over :) 08:37:37 another good online book is 'The Forth Programmers Handbook" good reference 08:37:38 im gona /msg it to youtho - i dont want clog logging this guy :) 08:38:07 ./msg me ? 08:38:16 qless: didnt have time 2 fuck about usenet yet 08:38:24 qless: url? 08:38:27 no - im gona messge onetom with an email eh 08:38:41 why not me? :P 08:38:54 I440r: uuu? u mean u could email me starting forth??? 08:39:11 no - i cant - you can contact the guy that baught all the books tho :) 08:39:13 onetom: go to www.forth.com, where you can download and register for a trial version of swiftforth. the download contains 2 online books in pdf 08:39:28 i want to buy thinking forth and starting forth and all the other forth books 08:39:32 erm 08:39:53 the first edition starting forth book is worth $7245782435872873453782 now :P 08:40:02 or. its a collectors item at least :P 08:40:11 qless: what are the names of those two online books 08:40:14 qless: thx 4 the info 08:40:31 The Forth Programmers Handbook, and the Swiftforth User's Manual 08:40:58 you can get a paper version of the 1st from forth.com or amazon 08:43:08 you can get thinking forth at amazon 08:43:40 you cant get starting forth there - specially not a first edition 08:45:11 what's the big deal with first edition? 08:45:15 isn't second edition better? 08:45:38 second edition has some updates and corrections 08:46:11 well i only logged in to check mail 08:46:26 i got to fix this time stuff so isforth can display the current date etc :) 08:46:36 ans my question first! :D 08:46:37 and ive started working on the terminfo stuff 08:46:44 i did 08:46:52 isn't second edition better? 08:46:56 i said 08:47:02 it has some updates and corrections 08:47:07 yeah 08:47:14 therefore it's better? 08:47:22 but first edition is RARE!!! heh 08:47:24 gtg 08:47:42 --- quit: I440r ("abort" Reality Strikes Again"") 08:50:15 * qless likes the cartoons in starting forth 08:52:10 http://213.163.52.70/home/tom/www/starting4th.png ;) 08:52:18 --- join: segher (~segher@a43195.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth 08:52:31 onetom: 404 08:52:33 Hi segher 08:52:35 hi segher 08:52:37 hi 08:52:43 hoe gaat het? 08:52:47 segher: you figure out does> i've seen some does.fth files 08:52:55 i figured it out 08:53:28 it turns out that ANS does _not_ require all code fields to be the same size 08:54:01 in fact, it only requires words created by CREATE to have a (reachable) data field 08:54:01 that would allow for inline code 08:54:05 yes 08:54:52 so i create 2-cell code fields for CREATE'ed words, and 1-cell code fields for all others 08:55:04 the ANS Standard killed Forth. seriously. many people say this :) 08:55:12 why? 08:55:38 dunno, but gtg for a bit 08:55:39 bbl 08:55:42 cu 08:55:54 bye 08:56:07 there's an article about it on some forth site 08:56:20 i _have_ to be ANS compliant anyway; this is an Open Firmware implementation 08:56:37 i know, i'm not arguing against your use of it :) 08:56:48 OF requires some further sane requirements, btw 08:56:59 like, (at least) 32-bit cells 08:57:09 and 2's complement math 08:57:27 and floored division 08:57:51 what's that? 08:58:08 division with remainder the sign of the dividend 08:59:05 erm 08:59:13 remainder the sign of the divisor 08:59:58 5 -2 /mod ==> -3 -1 09:00:17 the other thing is called symmetric division 09:00:32 And that is? :) 09:00:42 5 -2 /mod ==> -2 1 09:00:42 http://213.163.52.70/~tom/starting4th.png 09:01:14 fm/mod is floored division, sm/rem is symmetric division 09:01:19 onetom: that book loks... old 09:01:24 /mod can be either 09:01:57 Hm, I've never used modulo with negative numbers 09:02:06 you shouldn't :) 09:02:28 That's why I haven't done it :D 09:02:57 -5 2 fm/mod ==> -3 1 09:03:13 -5 2 sm/rem ==> -2 -1 09:03:47 most cpus' division instructions are floored, nowadays 09:04:46 What does the ia-32 use? 09:05:15 floored, i think 09:06:07 mkay 09:07:49 actually, idiv and div truncate their results toward zero 09:08:25 hrm 09:08:28 that's dumb 09:08:44 nobody ever said ia-32 was /sane/ :-) 09:08:52 toward zero == symmetric 09:08:55 or ia-64 09:09:01 toward negative infinity == floored 09:09:22 any idea what ppc uses? 09:09:41 segher, nope 09:09:50 or what C99 requires? 09:11:58 gcc does it symetrically. is that C99? 09:12:14 i think so 09:12:19 yeah i think so too 09:12:40 gcc is almost completely C99 compatible, nowadays 09:15:45 man, we should all buy forth cpus and forget about intel :P 09:16:16 made by amd! 09:16:27 heh 09:16:28 good idea 09:16:41 get a 65F11 :) 09:16:45 NEWSFLASH: THE PH33RSOME CHARLES MOORE TEAMS UP WITH AMD TO WUP SOME INTEL ASS! 09:17:27 actually, there _is_ (or was?) an AMD Forth cpu (some 88000 thingy) 09:18:28 HM? 09:18:34 you mean stack-based cpu? 09:18:43 lemme find it :) 09:18:44 stack-based cpu != forth cpu 09:18:55 forth cpu = machine language _is_ forth :D 09:18:59 ah 09:19:05 stack machine, then :) 09:19:20 forth cpus are leet! 09:19:35 i think it had DOCOLON and EXIT insns, though... :) 09:20:09 the amd cpu? 09:20:28 yeah 09:20:53 it was a modified version of the normal 88000 09:30:04 hrm 09:30:15 i'm wondering how best to handle stack under- and overflow 09:30:53 i don't want to actually _test_ for overflows ;) 09:32:08 maybe unmapping the memory pages above and below the stacks will be easiest 09:32:23 --- quit: onetom (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 09:32:44 oh duh. the 88000 is a motorola cpu, not an amd cpu 09:36:18 --- join: onetom (tom@adsl52070.vnet.hu) joined #forth 09:38:42 hm, i think the forth cpu handles stack under/overflows nicely, but i forget 09:48:53 is there anybody here, who has already implemented a REAL forth processor? 09:48:59 i mean physically? 09:49:09 s/\?/./ 09:50:59 66.140.25.157 - - [11/Mar/2002:18:37:39 +0100] "CONNECT 198.186.203.27:6667 HTTP/1.0" 405 231 09:51:03 ROOT@ex:~> host 66.140.25.157 09:51:04 Name: proxyscan.openprojects.net 09:51:04 Address: 66.140.25.157 09:51:14 what the hell is it? 09:51:39 (the 1st log line comes from /var/log/apache/access.log 10:24:34 --- quit: segher ("hopla") 10:30:29 --- part: qless left #forth 10:38:52 --- join: Etaoin (~david@ljk2-11.sat.net) joined #forth 11:29:37 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust110.tnt3.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:30:16 well isforth can now display the year, time and day of the week -- but i cant figur out how to get the month 11:32:04 Hey I440r 11:32:25 hi :) 11:33:47 Onetom: 11:33:54 - OPN cannot guarantee access to users whose IRC clients run on hosts with open proxies, IIS servers or other categories of software determined to present special risk to our server environment. We reserve the right to use automation to attempt to 11:33:54 - detect such software on your host, as you connect to our servers and while you remain connected to OPN. 11:33:54 It's in the MOTD :/ 12:21:20 Soap`: :/ thx 12:26:49 i440r: doesn't the clock hold the month? 12:41:34 no 12:41:58 gettimeofday syscall tells you how many seconds have elapsed since midnight jan 1 1980 12:42:49 plus it tells you your current timezone offset in hours 12:43:05 apply the offset to the "time" and you get your LOCAL # seconds since epoic 12:43:07 epoc 12:43:24 60 /mod . \ display seconds 12:43:33 60 /mod . \ display minutes 12:43:43 24 /mod . \ display hours 12:43:56 hello. 12:44:13 7 /mod 3 - . \ display current day (sunday based) 12:46:24 i cant figure out how to extract current month/day of the month 12:51:18 how do you extract the year? 12:51:25 what about leap days 12:51:27 and stuff like that 12:51:37 what algorithm are you using..? 12:51:53 leap years 12:51:59 im writing this myself heh 12:52:19 given the number of days since the epoc do this 12:52:23 1969 12:52:24 begin 12:52:26 1+ 12:52:29 tuck 3 and 12:52:32 fo 364 12:52:38 ( thats an if) 12:52:44 else 365 12:52:46 then 12:52:48 - 12:52:50 dup 0> 12:52:59 while swap repeat 12:53:04 drop !> year 12:53:36 i've heard speuler make a reference he was coding some jules calendar algorithm.. also mrreach or some other forth guy was doing a calendar algorithm.. 12:54:00 but mrreach isnt here now is he hehe 12:54:24 im trying this right now.... 12:54:47 create dpm 31 c, 28 c, (etc -- # days in each month) 12:55:07 given the number of days since the epic do this... 12:55:12 : doesnt-work 12:55:20 !> x \ # days since epoc 12:55:23 0 0 12:55:25 begin 12:55:29 over x < 12:55:30 while 12:55:46 dup dpm + c@ rot + swap 1+ 12:55:48 repeat 12:56:04 drop ; 12:56:20 should return number of months since epoc but it doesnt seem to work 12:57:07 you put 1969 on the stack and then tuck 3.. but what are the other stack items? 12:58:06 number of days since epoc 1969 12:58:16 1969+1 is 1970 - the epoc 12:58:58 i think it's "epoch" , also, the word "extention" is acutally "extension" :) 12:59:06 er, actually 12:59:10 so i cant spell 12:59:14 i can code :P 13:00:17 heh 13:00:29 cept i cant code this obviously :P 13:00:29 heh 13:01:10 um. i don't understand you code. what is dpm and x ? 13:01:40 and how is this code detecting months when you have all these months with different amount of days.. 28, 31, etc.. 13:02:10 ugh i told you 13:02:18 i have a table with the number of days in each month 13:02:26 dpm = days per month table 13:02:46 ohh i jus thtunked of something - brb 13:09:05 grrr this isnt working! 13:09:12 you suck :P 13:09:37 :) 13:23:07 does anybody know how to write a program (preferably in forth) that generates a bunch of pretty lines & text that can be printed out ? 13:23:34 like.. i was thinking of generating a file that could be printed 13:23:55 pdf or something.. 13:24:50 no, I don't know 13:25:28 Isn't PostScript forth-based? 13:25:42 yeah.. but i'd have to learn it :P 13:26:57 waa 13:28:31 futhin: just as u should do in case of other piece of sw than postscript 13:30:10 futhin: but there r many, proven sw outthere that do pretty printing just fine 13:30:40 what's the easiest way to print out pretty lines? (i was thinking, create a file that could be printed out.. like .dvi or .ps or whatever) 13:32:20 futhin: but if u inevitable need to control the look of a page then its worth learning ps 13:33:01 come on, tell whats yr actual problem! 13:33:15 tell us 13:33:50 need to draw schematics based on a bunch of numbers that get entered by the user 13:37:26 spreadsheet! 13:37:35 eh 13:37:37 no 13:37:45 in what environment? 13:37:48 need to draw a bunch of lines 13:37:54 the lines make a picture 13:38:01 show us an example 13:38:04 there's measurement numbers attached to the lines, etc 13:38:05 heh 13:38:14 cad? 13:38:16 draw a sample in gimp 13:38:20 heh 13:38:59 just pretend it's drawing a rectangular box 13:39:15 4 lines 13:39:17 thats a weighted graph then 13:39:20 no 13:39:22 it's not a grap 13:39:26 it's not a graph 13:39:34 it's an item the shop produces 13:39:40 k, then dont tell but draw 1! 13:39:47 quickly! 13:39:52 a rectangular box and some measurements attached to it 13:39:53 heh 13:40:18 shop? 13:40:24 what shop? 13:40:26 * futhin has to download gimp for windows 13:40:31 hardware store? 13:40:39 it's a schematic that gets sent to shop, where they build the item in the schematic 13:40:41 r u using gimo? 13:40:52 ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H 13:40:56 r u using windows? 13:40:57 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 13:41:09 hi cueless ;) 13:41:17 greetings 13:41:23 queue-less? 13:41:28 (did i miss my cue?) 13:41:30 :-) 13:41:34 queue< 13:41:50 its spelled q< actually, but that's classified 13:42:07 oops, now everybody knows 13:42:40 ***** 13:43:11 clueless! 13:43:11 heh 13:43:19 hehe 13:43:33 * qless with a nick like this, nobody expects much 13:44:14 i440r, when i see your nick i think "I ate her". dunno why 13:44:55 its my guitar :) 13:44:59 Ibanez 440 radius 13:45:07 440hz is the A tone 13:45:16 they havent read isforth readme ;) 13:45:44 i440r, thats astonishingly cryptic 13:45:56 q deliberatly so 13:46:07 nobody ever steals a nick they dont understand :) 13:46:47 --- nick: qless -> i440s 13:46:49 like mine :D 13:46:53 right about that 13:47:24 emmm, what does yours 1 mean? 13:47:48 mine? 13:47:52 yup 13:48:16 FU is an acronym. and Thin just for the hell of it :P 13:48:31 thin = efficient, streamlined, etc 13:48:43 thin code, thin everything else.. 13:49:00 --- nick: i440s -> kung_futhin 13:49:29 heeey-ya! 13:49:33 heh 13:49:51 i took Gung Fu for a year 13:49:53 q< does the conversation via the /nick command :) 13:50:00 i know how to use my waist power ;) 13:50:08 Gung? 13:50:17 yeah 13:50:23 not kung? 13:50:34 --- nick: kung_futhin -> twotom 13:50:39 :))))))) 13:50:43 damn i'm seeing double 13:50:49 lolllll 13:50:58 no idea, i think Gung Fu is supposed to be the correct translation.. 13:51:06 r u drunk 2day? ;) 13:51:12 --- nick: futhin -> sixtom 13:51:17 translation? 13:51:25 yeah, of the chinese word 13:51:28 --- nick: sixtom -> futhin 13:51:55 gung fu means "to be especially skilled at", so you can say you have the Gung Fu of cooking, or driving, or anything really 13:52:02 u speak chinese? 13:52:44 so gung fu is the synonym of hacker in chinese.. c 13:53:08 that's what they mean when they say "your gung fu is the best" 13:53:30 --- nick: twotom -> qless 13:53:41 --- nick: qless -> q 13:54:04 Qss 13:54:08 --- part: q left #forth 13:54:35 ? where has he gone? 13:55:08 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 13:55:32 oops, got smoked by the nickserv 13:55:45 we have a word in hungarian: kuss 13:56:11 u can write it in an elite way as Qs 13:56:12 onetom: heheh.. gung fu is hacker, funny :) 13:56:19 and it means ... nu, what? 13:56:31 any idea? 13:56:37 <-- is kind of thinking of changing his nick 13:56:40 futhin: do u know the hacker howto? 13:57:14 yes, i'm familiar with hacker lore :P 13:57:24 ever booted a naked floppy? 13:57:25 i know that hacker != cracker 13:57:31 nope 13:57:38 ever tripped a halon system? 13:57:49 hoped so, but 13:57:55 * Soap` hides from the BOFH 13:58:18 prove me that u r talkin about that how2 that im 13:59:20 --- nick: qless -> BOFH 13:59:54 hello, technical support. you need more disk space? sure. hold on. 14:00:05 you now have 5 Megs 14:00:12 ugh, i hate BOFH heh 14:00:31 http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html 14:00:31 -- you DELETED all my files!!! 14:00:33 a total asshole, can't even do something better, like help the world? :P 14:01:04 --- nick: BOFH -> drq 14:01:06 i like user friendly 14:01:09 thats realy funny :) 14:01:20 Has anyone seen Salmon Days? 14:01:34 futhin: probably i refered 2 this doc, though im not sure, coz ive just read its hungarian translation yet 14:01:58 Soap`: not yet & not even heard of it 14:02:09 url? ;) 14:03:20 * onetom resting a bit 14:05:13 onetom: here's an url for you groups.google.com 14:09:50 onetom, www.salmondays.tv if i remember right 14:14:37 .date 14:14:47 Mon Apr 11 2002 17:14:19 :))) 14:14:54 now i gotta make sure its ALWAYS right heh 14:15:12 oopts 14:15:14 april eh 14:15:16 thats wrong 14:15:20 hrm why is that 14:15:23 oh yea i know why heh 14:15:31 * drq volunteers to stare at the clock for a few hours 14:15:50