00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.10
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02:52:27 --- nick: Soap` -> SoapSleep
07:20:16 <rob_ert> Silent in here...
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08:24:59 <rob_ert> Hi
08:25:19 <Etaoin> hello
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08:50:34 --- log: started forth/02.03.10
08:50:34 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
08:50:34 --- topic: 'Forth is a programming language, an operating system, a philosophy, and a way of life. feel free to ask questions and discuss all things forthy :-)'
08:50:34 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Tue Mar 05 17:56:49 2002]
08:50:34 --- names: list (clog Etaoin rob_ert SoapSleep @ChanServ)
09:41:53 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XIV-95.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth
09:42:28 <rob_ert> Hyvää päivää, XeF4 :)
09:42:56 <XeF4> päivää!
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10:13:02 <rob_ert> Hey I440r.
10:13:06 <I440r> xef!
10:13:13 <I440r> robbie :)
10:19:11 <XeF4> Mark!
10:20:20 <I440r> hi :)
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10:20:28 <I440r> heh
10:20:33 <I440r> poor boy
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10:32:28 <I440r> wb :)
10:32:42 <I440r> found a bug in isforth
10:32:55 <I440r> for some reason its segfaulting under certain conditions during fload
10:33:23 <I440r> ./me has to investigate that
10:33:23 <I440r> grr
10:33:41 <XeF4> is the fpu stack full? :D
10:34:23 <I440r> heh isforth duesnt have an fpu stack :)
10:34:33 <XeF4> then what is fload?
10:34:58 <I440r> maybe ill add double numbers (sorta half there already) and have 64 bit integer math :)
10:35:10 <I440r> ohh heh
10:35:21 <I440r> fload is how you interpret from a file
10:35:59 <I440r> when fpu stuff is added it wont conflict because ill have vocabularies by then ehh
10:36:34 <XeF4> mmhmm
10:36:34 <I440r> i could probably make nasm assemble words to different vocabularies but it would make the macros VERY complex
10:38:27 <XeF4> nasm macros make everything very complex
10:38:45 <I440r> heh
10:39:01 <I440r> when i get an asm extention i can start writing the meta compiler
10:39:11 <I440r> then i can permanantly rm -rf nasm
10:39:56 <XeF4> aha.  fwiw, I have still not tried isforth
10:41:20 <I440r> eek!!!!!!!!!!!
10:41:21 <I440r> heh
10:41:43 <I440r> im writing stuff now to read terminfo stuff
10:42:02 <I440r> wrote a word last nite to search the environment for any variable and return a pointer to the string it equates too
10:42:09 <I440r> search for TERM=
10:42:22 <I440r> and it returns a string (in my case) to Eterm (from x)
10:42:35 <I440r> now i gotta open /usr/share/terminfo/E/Eterm
10:42:46 <I440r> read and interpret what i find there
10:42:57 <I440r> then ill be able to write cursor control shit for isforth
10:43:04 <I440r> windows- color etc
10:43:11 <I440r> a status line!!!
10:43:12 <I440r> eep!
10:43:39 <XeF4> whee.  I have just been assuming that every terminal is vt102 compatible
10:45:11 <I440r> not true :(
10:45:13 <I440r> eterm isnt
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10:45:20 <I440r> linux terminal is 
10:45:24 <I440r> but eterm isnt :(
10:45:31 <onetom> hi
10:46:40 --- nick: onetom -> onet_celeb
10:46:58 * onet_celeb celebrates his nameday
10:47:34 <XeF4> i440r: yes, but half the reason I have no net connection to my PC is to keep Rasterman's products a safe distance away
10:48:31 <I440r> hehe
10:48:42 <I440r> i like eterm
10:50:08 <XeF4> I've mostly stopped running X "for  reasons of system performance"
10:50:14 <I440r> :)
10:50:21 <I440r> actually MOST of what i do is in an eterm
10:50:33 <I440r> i like being able to run codewrite in wine tho to do source edits
10:51:09 <XeF4> I have been mostly using fbcon with the top half used for graphics and a term on the bottom
10:54:13 <I440r> yea ?
11:02:08 <XeF4> and then I'm thinking to implement a simple text-terminal widget thingy ( not vt102 compatible, just with what I need)
11:03:34 <I440r> :)
11:03:40 <XeF4> since /dev/vcsa is not mmapable
11:05:37 <I440r> vcsa ?
11:06:41 <XeF4> linux' map of text console memory
11:07:06 <XeF4> under plain VGA, each virtual console has a vcsa device with a copy of the memory to be copied straight to the VGA buffer
11:08:05 <I440r> ft and we cant map it and write to it and therefore write to display ?
11:08:06 <XeF4> linux software-renders from the same buffer to fbcon
11:08:38 <XeF4> we can write/read it with syscalls, but we can't map it
11:09:05 <XeF4> which makes it extremely slow to draw a simple vertical line
11:09:13 <I440r> how do we find the geometry of the display so we can calculate x and y and therfore file offsets ?
11:09:21 <I440r> oh
11:09:24 <I440r> dont want slow :P
11:09:26 <XeF4> first 2 bytes of /dev/vcsa
11:09:56 <XeF4> are height:width, then comes x:y cursor position, then the framebuffer
11:10:26 <I440r> hrm - we cam move the cursor by just overwriting byte 2 and 3 ?
11:10:32 <I440r> then just do ." foo" ?
11:10:59 <XeF4> supposedly, but I've not tried it.
11:11:24 <XeF4> otoh, that might get reset by the tty emulation every time you put a char.
11:11:24 <I440r> i MIGHT just try that instead of this terminfo bullshit
11:11:29 <I440r> any drawbacks to doing that ?
11:11:37 <I440r> oh 
11:11:38 <I440r> grr
11:11:40 <XeF4> but it does let you move the cursor out of the way for ascii art
11:11:43 <I440r> close tty ? heheh
11:11:55 <I440r> ohhh
11:12:08 <XeF4> drawbacks are that it won't work anywhere but a linux tty
11:12:15 <I440r> x y set-xy ." xxx"
11:12:20 <I440r> all im interested in is linux :P
11:12:23 <I440r> erm
11:12:26 <I440r> not bsd ?
11:12:34 <XeF4> not a serial term connected to a linux box
11:12:41 <XeF4> nor an xterm
11:12:47 <I440r> oh
11:12:50 <I440r> hrm
11:12:58 <I440r> ok - back to the terminfo bs :)
11:13:14 <XeF4> and then the no-mmap restriction makes scrolling slow
11:15:06 <I440r> is there any way to memory map a terminal ?
11:15:33 <XeF4> depends on the terminal.  Most terms just send and recieve single characters
11:15:38 <XeF4> so there isn't anything to map
11:15:48 <I440r> point
11:16:08 <I440r> NEED to be able to do [blahblah:blahbnlah bullshit 
11:17:01 <I440r> once i got this part done ill be able to add command history too
11:17:01 <XeF4> I did write a quick'n'dirty by copying&pasting from the console_codes manpage
11:17:15 <XeF4> quick'n'dirty termio, even
11:17:42 <XeF4> (vt102 and compatibles only, blabla)
11:19:24 <I440r> yea. im goign to need isforth to work on any terminal if its going to be "accepted"
11:19:34 <I440r> and theres VERY LITTLE info i need from terminfo
11:19:43 <I440r> just how to set x, y and move arround and set colours
11:21:11 <I440r> the terminfo data will be ata known location tho - so any user apps can extract any info they need from it np
11:21:49 * XeF4 jumps around the office screaming and kicking wastebaskets over
11:21:58 <XeF4> why not write a termio vocabulary?
11:22:22 <I440r> cuz i dont have vocabularies yet hehe
11:22:29 <I440r> what words would it have
11:22:41 <I440r> also - i dont want to bloat things with shit nobody is ever going to use
11:23:50 <XeF4> setfg setbg decstbm (set scrolling region) decom (cursor relative to scrolling region) ekey, blink noblink set-xy linedel linesdel setins setdel
11:23:52 <XeF4> etc
11:26:10 <XeF4> user interaction is important, people will use it.
11:27:35 <I440r> yes - those i want
11:28:00 <I440r> thats not bloat - thats needed heh
11:46:48 <XeF4> if I may be so bold, for isforth to be accepted, it must play well with other software in general
11:47:02 <I440r> it will 
11:47:14 <I440r> i want a way to interface libc etc too
11:47:16 <I440r> eventually
11:54:32 <XeF4> and dump .elf .so's? :)))))
11:56:55 <I440r> no
11:57:09 <I440r> isforth wont write any linkable elfs
11:57:10 <I440r> BUT
11:57:17 <I440r> if you wanted it to you could write the extention
11:58:13 <I440r> actually - when isforth fsaves the extended kernel theres somethig slightly not right with the elf module
11:58:19 <I440r> gdb wont debug it :P
11:59:36 <XeF4> gdb sometimes refuses to debug code that is perfectly right, eg. if you do your own relocation
12:00:06 <XeF4> afaik, there _is_ somewhere you can put the symbol tables, but ...
12:00:18 <XeF4> rather.. somewhere you can put generated symtabs after boot
12:01:17 <I440r> fsave doesnt generate a string table section
12:01:27 <I440r> its an OPTIONAL section that gdb "requires"
12:06:08 <XeF4> gdb on siis yhtä unix-mielinespaskaa
12:07:20 <I440r> ?
12:07:44 <I440r> say again in english ?
12:07:52 <XeF4> "thus gdb is quite some unix-minded shit"
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12:08:27 <I440r> :)
12:08:43 <I440r> i dont know abot "unix minded"
12:08:49 <I440r> but it is definatly SHIT :P
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14:08:38 <I440r> hmm ok - thats ennuff mudding - now i gota go do some coding
14:08:39 <I440r> bbl
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14:31:30 <futhin> good morning :P
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17:20:28 <uiver> maybe
17:20:30 <uiver> oops
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17:39:57 <qless> howdy folks
17:45:08 <Soap`> 'ello
17:45:21 <qless> heya soap
17:47:26 <uiver> it's meant to be used ;)
17:47:32 <uiver> grr
17:47:40 <uiver> wrong chan again...  *sorry*
17:48:05 <qless> thought u meant soap was meant to be used... :-)
17:48:32 <uiver> heh
17:49:26 <uiver> : soap create does> forget dirt ;
17:49:41 <qless> :)
17:56:00 <uiver> : negate 0 swap - ; : + negate - ;
17:56:24 <uiver> minimalism is good :)
17:56:37 <qless> twisted
17:56:49 <uiver> heh
17:57:04 <uiver> : swap 1 roll ;
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22:10:56 <futhin> ho ender
22:11:30 <Soap`> ho bean?
22:11:41 <rob_ert> hey futhin :)
22:12:39 <futhin> soap`: yay, you read the book :)
22:13:48 <futhin> rob_ert: you need to read the book: ender's game    it's a great book :)
22:14:00 <rob_ert> Nope.. what is it about?
22:14:35 * Soap` liked EG... the sequels kinda sucked tho'.
22:14:37 <futhin> it's a great sci-fi book :)
22:14:54 <futhin> soap`: yeah, i read speaker for the dead, but it sucked..
22:15:50 <Soap`> rob_ert, it's one of those books that are all the better if you don't know too much about it beforehand 
22:16:08 <rob_ert> Hehe
22:16:25 <rob_ert> You don't happend to know the swedish title? :)
22:16:31 <rob_ert> Or at least the writer..
22:17:39 <Soap`> Author is Orson Scot Card, I think
22:17:58 <Soap`> Just to be confusing, it might be spelled differently, tho'
22:18:06 <rob_ert> Okay
22:18:47 <futhin> orson scott card
22:19:13 <futhin> rob_ert: read it in english :P
22:19:20 <futhin> although there probably is a swedish translation
22:19:21 <rob_ert> futhin: Sure, go buy it for me.
22:19:42 <rob_ert> futhin: Or make our library to buy an english edition.
22:19:48 <futhin> heh
22:20:04 <futhin> do an interlibrary loan :P
22:20:32 <rob_ert> Hm.. nah, and if I read it in Swedish, I got a fair chance of understanding the text :)
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.03.10