00:00:00 --- log: started forth/02.03.03
01:06:04 <onetom> mornin
03:04:33 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth
03:39:59 --- quit: segher ("ircII EPIC4-1.1.2 -- Are we there yet?")
05:25:09 --- join: I440r (~mark4@1Cust6.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth
05:25:33 <I440r> i got sockets now :))))
05:25:58 <I440r> hi tom :)
05:26:07 <I440r> u new in here ?? :)
05:27:31 <rob_ert> Hi I440r.
05:27:37 <I440r> hi rob :)
05:27:50 <I440r> i got my forth to connect on a socket last nite :)
05:27:52 <rob_ert> Hi :-) I'll bbl.
05:27:52 <I440r> now im writing a bot
05:27:54 <rob_ert> Cool.
05:28:02 <I440r> ill have it connect in ehre and you can do things like
05:28:10 <I440r> : xyzzy 10 0 do i . loop ;
05:28:14 <I440r> and it will compile that
05:28:16 <I440r> xyzzy
05:28:18 <I440r> and it will go
05:28:24 <I440r> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
05:28:25 <I440r> heh
05:28:29 <I440r> in HERE!!!!
05:28:36 <rob_ert> cool!
05:28:44 <rob_ert> Online forth
05:28:47 <rob_ert> Go for it!
05:28:50 <I440r> exactly :)
05:56:37 <onetom> hi
05:57:11 <onetom> yeah, im absolutely new. has arrived this very day
05:58:29 <onetom> I440r: if ud like 2 do such an online forth thing
05:58:50 <onetom> it would b nice to make it multi user
05:59:24 <onetom> just to avoid redefinitions by the various irc members
05:59:30 <onetom> what about it?
05:59:38 <I440r> well
06:00:01 <I440r> if it allowed more than one person at a time to compile definitions into the dictionary it would get real confusing
06:00:01 <I440r> im not sure how im going to do it
06:00:11 <I440r> but i think it will HAVE to have access levels
06:00:41 <onetom> access levels? hmm... cant get the point
06:01:10 <I440r> ok lets say i start doing
06:01:10 <I440r> : xyzzy .....
06:01:25 <onetom> ive thought of sg like: also <nick> definitions <msg> evaluate
06:01:35 <I440r> and half way through you start doing
06:01:35 <I440r> : abcde .....
06:01:35 <I440r> the definitions will get interleaved if the bot allowed it
06:01:50 <onetom> right, go on
06:02:44 <I440r> i might have to do a complete new forth kernel where every word has an access level
06:02:56 <I440r> only people with the access level to execute a word may execute that word
06:03:17 <I440r> when i define a new word here i can change ITS access level 
06:03:31 <I440r> would complecate things tho
06:03:41 <I440r> so what brought you to #forth :)
06:05:47 <I440r> ?
06:11:59 <I440r> onetom: you still there ?
06:16:01 <rob_ert> I440r: Done with your bot yet? :-)
06:16:27 <I440r> not quite :)
06:16:27 <I440r> be a cpl of days yet
06:16:34 <rob_ert> *sob*
06:17:04 <rob_ert> When someone is bored, he could code a new word on your bot ;-)
06:17:46 <I440r> only if he had access :P
06:17:50 <rob_ert> After a while, I'm sure we'll have discovered a bug and written delete-hard-disk-of-I440r
06:18:33 <I440r> no format c: /u for you :P
06:18:42 <I440r> fdisk /mbr
06:18:42 <I440r> heh
06:18:52 <I440r> mke2fs /
06:18:52 <I440r> hjeh
06:19:04 <I440r> mental note - dont run the bot as root :P
06:19:07 <rob_ert> rm -rf /etc
06:19:11 <rob_ert> :P
06:19:26 <rob_ert> good security tip, yes :)
06:19:28 <I440r> that would be difficult
06:19:44 <I440r> whtn the bot runs it will be in somewhere/forthbot and will chroot to that dir :P
06:20:34 <rob_ert> then why not create 10000 files and fill them with the word "Pumpernickel"?
06:21:19 <I440r> heh 
06:22:00 <I440r> the sockets stuff isnt going to be released
06:22:20 <rob_ert> huh?
06:22:32 <rob_ert> you want to sell it instead? :-)
06:22:49 <rob_ert> or what do you think of?
06:22:57 <I440r> commercial possabilities
06:23:38 <I440r> ill be writing an irc server, web browser (console) etc
06:24:21 <rob_ert> :-)
06:24:57 <rob_ert> Hum.. Do you know any place where the different socket syscalls are listed?
06:25:14 <rob_ert> For UNIX, that is
06:25:19 <rob_ert> Linux, *BSD...
06:25:37 <rob_ert> Or maybe it's Linux-specific, that call I'm thinking of
06:26:17 <I440r> theres only one socket syscall
06:26:36 <I440r> try man 2 socketcall
06:27:05 <I440r> it basically tells you  "you dont need to know this - go away"
06:27:31 <rob_ert> I don't even have that manpage 
06:27:49 <rob_ert> And yes, I know that syscall, but not what numbers all the functions have.
06:27:57 <I440r> i did alot of reverse engineering to figur out how to do this shit heh
06:28:10 <rob_ert> Hehe
06:28:17 <I440r> apt-get install -f mandb :P
06:28:25 <rob_ert> "If it was hard for me, it should be hard for you!" ;)
06:30:53 <onetom> ugh sorry
06:30:57 <I440r> :)
06:30:57 <onetom> just some sec
06:31:01 <onetom> brb
06:31:05 <I440r> if it aint hard - it aint worth doing
06:31:05 <I440r> i.e. C
06:31:15 <I440r> wb :)
06:32:27 <rob_ert> I440r: I'll go find that list myself then...
06:32:28 <rob_ert> hrm
06:33:03 <I440r> send it to me if you find it:)
06:33:13 <I440r> complete dox on the socketcall syscall would be good :)
06:33:23 <I440r> i know function 1 and 3
06:33:23 <I440r> funciton 1 is allocate socket
06:33:35 <I440r> function 3 is connect
06:33:47 <I440r> no idea about 2 and 4 thru 65536 geg
06:34:12 <rob_ert> Hm
06:34:13 <I440r> hmmm or does it got to FFFFFFFF ? :)
06:34:20 <rob_ert> I've seen a list somewhere
06:34:26 <rob_ert> gotta find it again
06:35:00 <I440r> theres a list of syscalls
06:35:10 <I440r> but it dont say SHIT about the socketcall syscall
06:35:23 <rob_ert> Np
06:35:25 <rob_ert> No
06:35:26 <I440r> every list ive found - even the ones for asm coders are formatted for C scripters
06:35:34 <I440r> basically only have the same info as is in the lame ass man pages
06:35:34 <rob_ert> hehe
06:35:42 <rob_ert> I'll go check...
06:42:52 <rob_ert> http://linuxassembly.org/linasm-src.html
06:42:57 <rob_ert> a few of them...
06:44:11 <onetom> finally, im back
06:44:13 <I440r> i know every single item at that site
06:44:30 <rob_ert> good :-)
06:44:40 <I440r> i mirrored it locally
06:45:02 <rob_ert> http://www.skyfree.org/linux/kernel_network/socket.html
06:45:05 <rob_ert> there it is...
06:48:10 <I440r> does it doccument the socketcall syscall ?
06:48:40 <onetom> what 4thz r yall using?
06:49:30 <rob_ert> I440r: It contains a list with the socket subfunction of syscall 102
06:49:39 <rob_ert> subfunctions*
06:50:14 <I440r> yes
06:50:24 <I440r> syscall $66 (102) is the socketcall
06:50:33 <I440r> this info i would have loved to have last night
06:50:43 <I440r> it would have saved me an awful lota reverse engineering heh
06:50:47 <rob_ert> :-)
06:50:49 <rob_ert> www.google.com
06:50:52 <rob_ert> :P
06:51:16 <I440r> yea well. i wasnt online last nite heh
06:51:47 <onetom> I440r: u r using debian, aint ya. why didnt u check the dox come w it?
06:52:13 <onetom> I440r: howtos, ldp dox like kernel hackers guide
06:52:42 <onetom> I440r: im sure there must b good example code 4 socket handling
06:53:05 * rob_ert is starting to get annoyed by onetom's writing style ;)
06:53:06 <onetom> I440r: anyway, what forth has u extended w socket support?
06:53:12 <I440r> i doubt it. not on THIS level
06:53:37 * onetom sorry. has warned every 1 :(
06:53:38 <I440r> MY forth :)
06:53:59 <I440r> the linux x86 direct threaded forth im writing that does all i/o with syscalls
06:53:59 <I440r> heh
06:54:22 <I440r> my forth is available for download if you want it
06:54:43 <I440r> its not 100% finished yet
06:54:43 <I440r> work in progress
06:54:53 <I440r> no assembler yet. no metacompiler
06:54:53 <I440r> yet
06:55:10 <I440r> the kernel is built with nasm - then you fload isforth.f to extend
06:55:19 <I440r> ver few extentions as of yet
06:55:29 <onetom> c
06:55:43 <onetom> and where can i dl it from?
06:56:42 <onetom> rob_ert: what r the most annoying elements of me style?
06:57:07 <onetom> rob_ert: i could try to avoid some of them
06:57:16 <rob_ert> hnn
06:57:23 <rob_ert> <onetom> what 4thz r yall using?
06:57:29 <rob_ert> 4thz <-- ;)
06:57:49 <onetom> rob_ert: except using: u r
06:58:03 <onetom> what about simply 4th?
06:58:11 <onetom> it is also annoying?
06:58:57 <onetom> coz, the 1st forth ive every used was 4th forth for zx spectrum
06:59:08 <rob_ert> forth
06:59:18 <rob_ert> what's so hard with that? :)
07:00:14 <onetom> as ive told u i was a young child when i 1st met 4th
07:00:37 <onetom> and this notation has cauterized into me
07:01:30 <onetom> and only my fater, a friend of him, the creator of 4th-forth and i used it for year
07:01:34 <onetom> nobody else
07:02:47 <onetom> can u imagine now how hard would it b to avoid using this notation?
07:03:23 <onetom> iirc i was about 7 yrs old that time
07:03:51 <I440r> you farter knows chuck moore ?
07:03:56 <onetom> treat it as a cultural difference ;)
07:04:01 <onetom> I440r: lollllll
07:04:27 <I440r> well thats what i thunked you said
07:04:35 <onetom> I440r: it was the sweetest question ive heard nowdays ;)
07:05:18 <onetom> uknow: no, he doesnt know, he is :)))
07:05:53 <onetom> but back to privilege levels
07:06:07 <onetom> i dont think u should implement priv lvls
07:06:38 <I440r> oneton. what do you mean
07:06:44 <I440r> your dad IS chuck moore ?>
07:07:08 <onetom> its just enough to have different dictionaries by default
07:07:29 <onetom> I440r: yes, i was trying to mention that, but certainly im joking
07:07:51 <I440r> damn
07:07:57 <I440r> i was hoping you were for real heh
07:08:09 <I440r> i was hoping you could get daddy to give me a job!!!!
07:08:12 <I440r> i REALY need one
07:08:30 <onetom> after that long lollll & :))) u should have think that
07:08:50 <onetom> well....
07:09:05 <I440r> tom do you run linux ?
07:09:07 <I440r> x86 ?
07:09:16 <onetom> probably we could talk about job anyway
07:09:28 <onetom> i definetly need a coder-mate
07:09:47 <I440r> coding what. earning how much - located where ?
07:09:55 <I440r> <<-- works as a consultant
07:10:04 <onetom> coz im not enough making our dreams come true
07:10:23 <onetom> yes, i use debian
07:10:37 <onetom> coding a house automation project
07:10:45 <I440r> x10 ?
07:11:00 <onetom> no, an own development
07:11:09 <I440r> ok
07:11:18 <I440r> but you know what x10 is right ? heh
07:11:24 <I440r> located where and how much...
07:11:30 <onetom> but what i should do now r the following:
07:12:04 <onetom> 1. an optimizing, native code generator forth compiler for PIC microcontrollers
07:12:27 <onetom> 2. a multiuser/multitasking forth 1st for PC
07:12:55 <onetom> location doesnt matter
07:13:00 <I440r> well isforth will be multi tasking. doesnt need to be multi user. the operating sys already is
07:13:07 <I440r> but it COULD be
07:13:13 <onetom> how much is the biggest issue...
07:13:30 <I440r> yes. but if im working at home i have home distractions to deal with.
07:13:57 <onetom> if i will succeed w this project
07:14:08 <onetom> ill gain money from it
07:14:19 <onetom> if not... well it sux
07:15:13 <onetom> but we already have 2 working systems right now
07:15:17 <I440r> how far are you into the project
07:15:23 <I440r> are you able to hire ?
07:15:34 <I440r> and where ARE you located heh
07:15:39 <onetom> it controlls lights
07:15:55 <onetom> and it has an experimental heat control support
07:16:43 <onetom> and now, i have to implement infra sensor interface 2day
07:16:55 <onetom> im living on the internet ;)
07:17:05 <onetom> im from hungary, anyway
07:17:18 <I440r> and can you afford my rate ?
07:17:32 <I440r> and how would you pay someone in usa ?
07:17:35 <onetom> and the financial circumstances r terrible here
07:17:38 <I440r> i dont think it would work
07:17:40 <I440r> ya
07:17:47 <I440r> damn cuz i aint worked in 7 months
07:17:55 <onetom> neither too :(
07:18:44 <onetom> the payment in the usa is amazing
07:18:53 <onetom> even for the dumbest jobs
07:19:10 <onetom> hungarian salary cant compete w those
07:19:29 <onetom> but now, i have to go
07:19:44 <onetom> b back some hours l8r
07:20:13 <onetom> we should discuss this multitasking/user thread deeper
07:20:25 <onetom> could u give me a pointer to isforth?
07:21:07 <I440r> its on my ftp
07:21:12 <I440r> dns me - its in /pub
07:21:26 <onetom> im on the way hackin tile-forth right now
07:21:37 <I440r> tile forth is crap
07:21:38 <onetom> thx, sec & ill try
07:21:43 <onetom> why?
07:21:47 <I440r> i wont have anything to do with a forth written in c
07:21:53 <I440r> tile forth is written in c
07:21:59 <I440r> my forht is written in assembler.
07:22:05 <I440r> nasm generates the kernel
07:22:08 <I440r> then you extend
07:22:20 <I440r> eventaually ill get an assembler extention and get rid of nasm
07:22:25 <onetom> it doesnt matter in my case
07:22:33 <I440r> isforth will eventually metacompile itself
07:22:51 <onetom> multi* functionality is much more important than speed in my case
07:23:01 <I440r> well ftp to 65.224.142.6
07:23:05 <I440r> look in /pub
07:23:15 <I440r> isforth-1.00b.tgz is what you want
07:23:37 <I440r> ive updated it a little since then but its work in prpgress. that tgz's abort" has a bug in it tho heh
07:23:51 <onetom> got it, thx
07:24:02 <onetom> is it an actively maintained forth?
07:24:12 <onetom> will i find website 4 it?
07:24:16 <I440r> i am working on it every day
07:24:21 <I440r> theres no web site for it 
07:24:23 <I440r> yet
07:24:28 <onetom> sounds promising :)
07:24:37 <I440r> i used to have a sourceforge project with it but i deleted the sourceforge account
07:24:39 <onetom> u wrote it, ha?
07:24:43 <I440r> too much administrative overhead
07:25:00 <I440r> last night i coded the socket stuff for it. but im holding that back heh
07:25:00 <onetom> ok, listen
07:25:16 <onetom> lets schedule a meeting now, k?
07:25:29 <I440r> sure - if i can be there i will
07:25:44 <onetom> what time will u b accessible for some serious disussion?
07:26:06 <I440r> well if you log in and see me - im available.
07:26:15 <I440r> right now tho i cant guarantee being online 24.7 :(
07:26:23 <onetom> but what could i expect?
07:26:32 <onetom> roughly?
07:26:42 <I440r> even that im not able to say for sure
07:26:47 <onetom> ill b back in about 5-6 hrs
07:26:53 <I440r> ill try be here then
07:27:15 <onetom> k, c u than & thx 4 isforth
07:27:20 <onetom> b4n
07:27:31 * onetom is in a hurry
07:28:11 <I440r> :)
08:04:45 --- join: CaffeineJunkie (~l@195.30.184.52) joined #forth
08:04:54 <CaffeineJunkie> 'oi
08:06:07 <I440r> caffine i got isforth to connect to a socket last nite :)P
08:06:13 <I440r> im writing a sockets interface :)
08:06:24 <I440r> and it allocated and connected a socket!!!
08:06:26 <CaffeineJunkie> cool man
08:06:32 <I440r> didnt do anything with it yet but it will soon
08:06:45 <I440r> im writing an irc bot that will allow people to extend the bot onine :)
08:06:54 <I440r> interpret : foo 10 0 do i . loop ;
08:06:58 <I440r> bot> ok
08:07:02 <I440r> interpret foo
08:07:09 <I440r> bot> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ok
08:07:11 <I440r> etc etc
08:07:31 <CaffeineJunkie> interpret : foo 100 0 do r> drop loop  ;
08:07:36 <CaffeineJunkie> bot> blrgh
08:08:19 <CaffeineJunkie> bot> autorestarting ...
08:08:24 <I440r> hehe
08:08:35 <I440r> that would be guaranteed to upset the bot :)
08:09:45 <CaffeineJunkie> maybe you could play a sound file
08:09:55 <CaffeineJunkie> "the sound of strangling john denver"
08:10:42 <CaffeineJunkie> "you came on my piiiiiiiilloooooooow ..... kwrrrrgh  ..."
08:10:52 <CaffeineJunkie> "thank you"
08:11:26 --- nick: CaffeineJunkie -> Speuler
08:11:32 <I440r> he
08:12:52 <Speuler> i got the mp3 :)
08:14:20 <Speuler> know bonzo dog doodah band ?
08:14:33 <I440r> nope
08:19:44 <Speuler> some of their sounds could be associated with crashing forth interpreters too
08:21:24 <rob_ert> Speuler :)
08:21:53 <Speuler> hi northling
08:22:22 <Speuler> forth warrior from the cold
08:22:22 <rob_ert> nordling
08:22:40 <rob_ert> (if you're making fun of "öst" = east)
08:22:50 <Speuler> eats meast wets
08:22:50 <rob_ert> norr/nord = north
08:23:00 <rob_ert> söder/syd = south
08:23:12 <rob_ert> öster/öst/ost = east
08:23:18 <rob_ert> väster/väst = west
08:23:30 <Speuler> my client doens't show the tremas
08:23:36 <Speuler> nor the Angstroms As
08:23:45 <Speuler> nor the o/
08:23:51 <futhin> i440r!!!! :D!!!!
08:24:29 <futhin> ugh, gtg
08:24:31 <rob_ert> futhin :)
08:24:32 <rob_ert> bye
08:25:17 <I440r> my h. still segfaults on some large numbers :(
08:25:31 <I440r> fu thin chu!
08:28:46 <I440r> bongo tell me what you thing this code does....
08:28:52 <I440r> : foo
08:29:01 <I440r>   dup   $ff and 8 u<<
08:29:14 <I440r>   over 8 u>> $ff and + 8 u<<
08:29:28 <I440r>  over 16 u>> $ff and + 8 u<<
08:29:33 <Speuler> byteswap  256 *
08:29:37 <I440r>  swap 24 u>> $ff and + ;
08:29:52 <I440r> it converts between network and host order
08:29:56 <I440r> i optimized it :)
08:30:11 <Speuler> i does it look after your optimization ?
08:30:18 <Speuler> how ...
08:30:18 <I440r> split swap 8 u<< split + swap 8 u<< split + join
08:30:32 <rob_ert> isn't there an i386 instruction for that?
08:30:34 <I440r> $ffeeddcc becomes $ccddeeff
08:30:48 <I440r> is there ?
08:30:54 <rob_ert> yes, I think so
08:31:07 <rob_ert> so your method is very unoptimized :P
08:31:07 <Speuler> can't you just c@ c! the bytes into proper order ?
08:31:30 <I440r> erm on the stack ?
08:31:46 <Speuler> not a good idea - may not work on all cpus
08:31:56 <I440r> rob what processor has that instruction ?>
08:32:04 <Speuler> some cpus don't allow random access to stack mem
08:32:24 <I440r> well any processor running linux has to
08:32:27 <I440r>  push param 1
08:32:29 <rob_ert> uhm
08:32:31 <I440r>  puth param 2
08:32:37 <I440r>  mov ecx, esp
08:32:40 <I440r>  call syscall
08:32:45 <I440r> where ecx points to the data
08:32:45 <Speuler> not any cpu forth runs need to
08:33:00 <rob_ert> I440r: I know IA-32 has it
08:33:08 <rob_ert> CHeck intel manual
08:33:10 <I440r> 386 ?
08:33:16 <rob_ert> bswp or something
08:33:21 <rob_ert> yes, 386
08:33:25 <I440r> hrm
08:33:26 <I440r> fsck
08:34:04 <rob_ert> hehe
08:34:06 <I440r> dammit i like my forth code :P
08:34:10 <rob_ert> ;-)
08:36:14 <Speuler> i just joined tcl ...
08:36:19 <Speuler> they are talking forth there ...
08:36:32 <Speuler> <davidw> I managed to get a forth interpreter running in the linux kernel
08:37:35 <rob_ert> :-)
08:47:03 <futhin> ok
08:47:05 <futhin> i'm back
08:47:15 <futhin> i440r~!!!!!
08:47:20 <futhin> you got socket?!
08:47:29 <I440r> ya ?
08:47:35 <futhin> internet sockets?
08:47:36 <I440r> :)
08:47:50 <I440r> its not ready for release yet. and i might not release it
08:47:58 <I440r> yes
08:48:05 <futhin> omg!!!!
08:48:08 <futhin> omg!! :D
08:48:26 <rob_ert> ?
08:48:27 <futhin> i'm coding a forth mud..  but i haven't bothered to figure out how to interface with the sockets library..
08:48:35 <I440r> ya :P
08:48:39 <futhin> maybe i can code the damn mud in isforth! :D!
08:48:47 <rob_ert> :-D
08:49:36 <I440r> yes
08:49:42 <I440r> maybe :)
08:50:01 <I440r> how far have you coded it
08:52:10 <futhin> um
08:52:12 <futhin> barely
08:52:32 <futhin> haven't figured out database or sockets.. and those are the two main obstacles
08:52:45 <I440r> will it be gpl ?
08:52:48 <futhin> i've got maybe 15 lines of code
08:52:53 <futhin> yeah, probably..
08:52:53 <I440r> ugh 
08:52:58 <futhin> lol
08:53:02 <I440r> heh
08:53:02 <I440r> thats not even started yet :P
08:53:04 <futhin> i know
08:53:08 <futhin> :)
08:53:12 <I440r> figure out the database stuff
08:53:13 <futhin> <-- lazy coder
08:53:51 <futhin> you get the sockets working and i'll worship you!
08:54:02 <I440r> ull never get a mud written like that :P
08:54:22 <futhin> hm?
08:54:43 <futhin> if i start coding, magic will happen, the stars will align, and maximum energy will flow
08:55:18 <I440r> sockets is already working :)
08:55:25 <I440r> i connectd a socket last night
08:55:31 <I440r> didnt do anything with it. but it connected
08:55:37 <futhin> how much code did it take to make the socket stuff??
08:55:38 <I440r> thats what counts :)
08:55:50 <I440r> but the sockets stuff is going tobe propriatory prolly
08:55:52 <I440r> very little :P
08:56:46 <futhin> why proprietory?!
08:57:09 <I440r> so. if you are making your bot gpl the sockets part (if i let you use it) will NOT be gpl
08:57:16 <I440r> because i need a way to make money
08:57:47 <I440r> and sockets code has commercial potantial
09:04:17 <I440r>   but i might let you use it :)
09:04:25 <I440r> if your nice to me :P
09:06:49 <futhin> i'm nice to you :P
09:07:13 <futhin> no matter how many times i harass you.. :P
09:07:31 <I440r> sure...
09:07:31 <I440r> sure@
09:07:41 <futhin> @ ?
09:08:04 <I440r> !
09:08:21 <I440r> u shudn know by now i cant type :P
09:08:21 <I440r> dummy
09:08:31 <futhin> lol
09:08:54 <futhin> the ability to not be able to type is probably vital to a forth coder :P
09:11:56 <I440r> yes
09:12:50 <I440r> heres one line of code from my irc bot
09:13:00 <I440r> localhost af_inet bot-port sockaddr_in bot-socket
09:13:21 <I440r> it creates a slightlhy modified sockaddr_in structure called bot-socket
09:20:25 <futhin> man, you are some super coder?  immediately after having most of isforth working, you are coding web browser, irc bot, etc etc 
09:21:00 <I440r> ip family port sockaddr_in name
09:23:11 <futhin> i440r: don't worry about the #forth logs, i'll do what you asked within the week
09:23:54 <I440r> heh
09:24:04 <I440r> thers no real rush on that :P
09:24:14 <I440r> but it would be nice to have some hunerous quotes etc from in here
09:24:17 <futhin> when do you see isforth being fully releasable ?
09:24:24 <I440r> im sure ther have been SOME at least heh
09:25:10 <futhin> yep
09:25:18 <futhin> such as stupid stuff you've said ;P
09:25:28 <I440r> well it is fully released already
09:25:35 <futhin> heh
09:25:37 <I440r> but as in - i consider it to be a complete forth ?
09:25:37 <I440r> well
09:25:49 <futhin> yea, that was my intent for the question
09:25:54 <I440r> it needs an assembler extention and a meta compiler
09:26:03 <I440r> then ill consider it FULLY releasable
09:26:14 <futhin> yep
09:26:20 <futhin> how long will it take?
09:26:26 <futhin> for you to do that?
09:28:26 <I440r> well. i dont think i could write an assembler extention myself
09:28:26 <I440r> thats why im hoping mrreach will pull through with one
09:28:39 <I440r> he said about 6 weeks after starting it it would be done
09:36:27 <futhin> why couldn't you do it?
09:36:36 <futhin> not good at assembler stuff?
09:37:08 <I440r> ive never written an assembler
09:37:19 <I440r> and x86 instructi0n encoding is complex :P
09:37:34 <futhin> uh..
09:37:52 <futhin> if you are familiar with asm, you shouldn't have any trouble.. 
09:38:04 <futhin> need a few reference books prolly
09:38:29 --- quit: rob_ert (": ^ 1 swap 0 do over * loop swap drop ;")
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09:39:20 <futhin> i440r
09:39:31 <I440r> ya ?
09:39:38 <futhin> what's up with mrreach? i haven't seen him on #forth lately 
09:40:02 <I440r> i dont know
09:40:43 <I440r> and he is n/a on icq too
09:40:51 <I440r> im hoping he is ok
09:40:57 <futhin> he always is n/a on icq
09:41:09 <futhin> i've messaged him a few times recently, but no response
09:41:25 <futhin> well
09:41:27 <futhin> i'm gonna go
09:41:29 <futhin> eat and stuff
09:41:56 <rob_ert> ok
09:41:57 <rob_ert> have fun
09:41:58 <I440r> :)
09:41:59 <rob_ert> cu later
09:42:33 * futhin is reading Thinking Forth too :D
09:43:14 * rob_ert is really thinking instead.
09:45:19 * I440r never thinks
09:48:05 <rob_ert> Take care of that gift ;)
09:52:20 <I440r> heh
10:43:46 <Speuler> l8er ...
10:43:59 --- part: Speuler left #forth
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10:57:56 --- part: aaronl left #forth
10:58:29 <onetom> re
11:10:37 <I440r> ho 
11:10:44 <I440r> im here
11:10:52 <I440r> just had to go get a coffee :)
11:13:22 <onetom> k
11:13:41 <I440r> :)
11:13:50 <I440r> so what did u wanna chat about ?
11:14:17 <onetom> sec
11:15:05 <rob_ert> He wants to ask you to be his wife, and love him forever, I guess.
11:16:06 <I440r> heh
11:16:06 <I440r> i dont think so :P
11:16:31 <onetom> rob_ert: no, i want your head 2 b tied ;)
11:16:45 * rob_ert hangs himself.
11:16:56 <onetom> I440r: today seems inapropriate 4 me
11:17:12 <onetom> rob_ert: nooo, i didnt say neck, but head
11:17:34 <I440r> well if im online im in here
11:17:34 <I440r> :)
11:17:41 <onetom> ok, thx
11:18:19 <onetom> i hope we could cont. the discussion in very near future
11:18:30 <onetom> bye all
11:18:56 <rob_ert> bye
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11:42:26 --- quit: futhin (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
11:53:34 --- quit: Speuler (Remote closed the connection)
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12:16:38 <MrReach> hihi!
12:20:23 <I440r> hi!!!
12:20:32 <I440r> i got sockets :)))
12:21:02 <I440r> basic still - all i did was connect. didnt xmit or recieve
12:30:02 <MrReach> good!
12:30:24 <MrReach> you used only kernel calls to do this?
12:31:44 <I440r> yes
12:31:52 <I440r> socketcall syscall
12:31:58 <MrReach> I'm impressed
12:32:13 <MrReach> what does the forth HL interface look like?
12:32:19 --- nick: MrReach -> MrBRB
12:33:01 <I440r> it doesnt look bad - but its just the beginnings yet
12:33:36 <I440r> i dont know if im releasing this code or not - it has commercial potential.
12:33:42 <I440r> and i realy need a money maker right now
12:33:42 <I440r> BADLY
12:39:16 --- nick: MrBRB -> MrReach
12:39:57 --- part: MrReach left #forth
12:40:00 --- join: MrReach (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
12:40:09 <MrReach> ok
12:40:27 <MrReach> can you show here how a typical usuage might look?
12:40:29 <I440r> wb
12:40:43 <MrReach> thanks, was messing with nickserv
12:40:58 <I440r> actually, i dont mind showing you the sources as they are right now.
12:41:25 <MrReach> ok
12:41:39 <I440r> give me about 15 minutes to finish this apt-get upgrade heh
12:42:03 <MrReach> sure, no prob
12:42:10 <I440r> i want it to be a complete library - its realy basic right now tho
12:42:29 <MrReach> I've been thinking about how to implement such an animal
12:42:52 <MrReach> right now, I'm leaning towards something like a creation/connection pair
12:43:11 <I440r> its actually turning out to be not so difficult - tho when ur looking at what gets passed to the socketcall syscall at this level it looks REALY weird in some places heh
12:43:34 <I440r> yes - i havent got that far yet :)
12:43:44 <MrReach> yeah, there's LOTS of low-level stuff
12:43:46 <I440r> but i want to be able to write servers with it etc
12:43:57 <I440r> not just open a socket and throw data down it 
12:44:18 <MrReach> s" www.yahoo.com" 80 SOCKET ( hdl )
12:44:19 <I440r> but thats where im most at home
12:44:30 <MrReach> or, conversely ...
12:44:47 <I440r> having a registered copy of the interactive disassembler is REALY helpfull heh
12:45:03 <I440r> s" isnt defined - not sure what it does 
12:45:11 <MrReach> ['] handler 80 SOCKET-LISTEN ( hdl )
12:45:19 <I440r> s, is but tcn wrote it and i think its wrong
12:45:19 <I440r> it doesnt , its own count byte
12:45:26 <MrReach> ha!
12:45:27 <I440r> u gota do dup , s, hhe
12:45:46 <I440r> yes - thats the sort of thing im looking for
12:46:04 <MrReach> S" leave address and count on stack, C" leaves address of counted string
12:46:05 <I440r> some-signal ' handler signal
12:46:29 <MrReach> oh! cool! signals are *SO* useful
12:46:36 <I440r> i already have ip: defined 
12:46:42 <MrReach> but lead to entrancy nightmares
12:46:45 <I440r> ip: localhost 127.0.0.1
12:46:45 <I440r> heh
12:47:13 <I440r> erm actually thats wrong i need to do
12:47:13 <I440r> ip: localhost 127.0.0.1.
12:47:20 <I440r> must hyave that trailing dot - would perfer not to have to do that :P
12:47:22 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-123.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
12:47:27 <I440r> its sloppy
12:47:31 <MrReach> hiya, futhin
12:47:44 <I440r> 9 more minuts
12:47:47 <futhin> argh, my router shut down or something
12:47:48 <MrReach> I440r: I would think a parsing word to be "sloppy" in the first place
12:48:01 <futhin> hi mrreach! :D
12:48:10 <futhin> the man is back! :D
12:48:21 * MrReach bows in warmest greetings.
12:48:32 <I440r> i like them
12:48:42 <I440r> makes the sources more HUMAN readable
12:48:50 <futhin> mrreach: been up to anything?
12:49:16 <MrReach> heh, that implies that you can't read reverse polish very well yet
12:49:17 <futhin> i440r: sloppy parser makes sources more human readable?  what is a non-sloppy parser?
12:49:28 <MrReach> futhin: getting ready for a camping trip
12:50:02 <I440r> not for another 7 minutes or so your not :P
12:50:08 <MrReach> futhin: I meant to say that all parsing words are considered "sloppy" in forth terms
12:50:25 <I440r> where u going camping ?
12:50:44 <I440r> yes 
12:50:47 <MrReach> Columbia Gorge, Pacific Ocean, Puget Sound
12:50:50 <I440r> forth is usualy parameter function
12:51:00 <I440r> parsiong words make it function parameter
12:51:11 <I440r> but parsing the input stream is very useful :)
12:51:18 <MrReach> yup
12:51:23 <I440r> fun!
12:51:29 <MrReach> blah
12:51:32 <I440r> how long for ?
12:51:40 <MrReach> has to be immediate or can't use inside colon defs
12:51:48 <I440r> till you get bored of it ??? :)
12:52:11 <MrReach> 4 nights, about 1500 miles
12:52:29 <I440r> what does - a parsing word ? - not if you want to do the parsing at run time :)
12:52:43 <MrReach> ha! I might if my wife weren't with me, but she has commitments, and honors them
12:52:58 <I440r> :)
12:53:05 <futhin> naw, you have to code the assembler for isforth :P
12:53:18 <MrReach> I've actually thought about going walkabout for a while
12:53:19 <I440r> tell her - get out and walk home ???hhehe
12:53:31 * I440r isnt married - can you tell ?
12:53:39 <futhin> nope
12:53:43 <futhin> you look find to me :P
12:53:47 <I440r> and please dont make it like linas assembler heh
12:53:55 <MrReach> heh, no doubt
12:54:00 <I440r> tho it does seem line a neat idea
12:54:10 --- nick: futhin -> thelazyoder
12:54:13 --- nick: thelazyoder -> thelazycoder
12:54:14 <MrReach> he's obviously put a lot of thought into it
12:54:18 <thelazycoder> eeps
12:54:21 <I440r> yes
12:54:35 <I440r> and yes i have seen it before :)
12:55:01 <MrReach> unfortunately, the thought led to an explosion of details, which he never recoelesced into something elegant
12:55:13 <thelazycoder> :D
12:55:45 <I440r> it would be good if we could convert mov eax, [ebx*2+esi] into his syntax as a first stage and then assemble from there
12:55:53 <MrReach> I still like the assembler that comes with SwiftForth the best
12:56:02 <I440r> what lisence does he have on it ?
12:56:06 <thelazycoder> so rip it shamelessly
12:56:17 <I440r> what lisence does THAT have on it
12:56:18 <MrReach> not sure, didn't look at the license for Lina
12:56:22 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder can keep your secrets
12:56:26 <I440r> i cant use anything thats pure gpl
12:56:27 <MrReach> it's proprietary
12:56:36 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder plans on naming his baby girl Lina
12:56:37 <I440r> it will taint my lisence
12:57:02 <I440r> oh yea
12:57:02 <I440r> swiftforth is forth inc
12:57:06 <MrReach> yep
12:57:17 <thelazycoder> i440r: thelazycoder wants to know what license is isforth?
12:57:27 <I440r> you have a baby girl ?
12:57:30 <MrReach> I said I liked it, not that I intended to use its source code
12:57:33 <I440r> its modified lgpl
12:57:36 <I440r> read the readme
12:58:27 <MrReach> I think thelazycoder meant he'll name his little girl that when he has one. He's still WAY young, if I recall
12:58:52 <MrReach> well, that doesn't neccessarily mean no children    *SIGH*
12:59:20 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder has no children yet
12:59:35 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder plans on having a girlfriend sometime in this lifetime.
12:59:38 <MrReach> brb
12:59:46 --- nick: MrReach -> MrBRB
13:02:41 <I440r> thelazycoder: u been looking at isforth sources ?
13:02:46 <I440r> and you didnt read the readme ? heh
13:02:55 <I440r> ive updated the readme a little
13:03:46 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder is too lazy to actually connect to the ftp server that is i440r, and download the spawn of forth
13:04:59 <I440r> duh
13:05:12 <I440r> u mean it would just go over your head so why bother ??? :L)
13:05:14 <I440r> heh
13:06:45 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder knows asm and knows enough forth to read some of the source.  thelazycoder is just lazy
13:07:17 <I440r> :)
13:07:27 <I440r> well no lazy ppl allowed in here
13:07:29 <I440r> :P~
13:09:56 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder notes most forth coders are lazy coders
13:10:52 <thelazycoder> thelazycoder notes there is a correlation between laziness and intelligence.  forth coders pick forth because it is the best language, since they are extremely lazy
13:11:17 --- nick: thelazycoder -> futhin
13:11:34 <I440r> :)
13:12:25 <futhin> thelazycoder is an annoying guy, i'm glad he's gone
13:12:39 <I440r> :)
13:13:05 <I440r> no being lazy on my time
13:13:13 <I440r> i dont pay you enough to be lazy :P
13:21:18 <futhin> i440r
13:21:25 <I440r> ya ?
13:21:30 <futhin> which files in pub?
13:21:34 <futhin> or should i just download them all
13:21:35 <futhin> bah
13:21:46 <I440r> just the isforth tgz
13:21:55 <I440r> thats the only one thats u need
13:22:22 <I440r> isfororth-1.00b.tgz
13:22:43 <I440r> forth.asm isnt my forth heh
13:22:44 <futhin> bwahaha, i'm getting your codingstyle one
13:22:46 <futhin> bwahahaha
13:22:47 <futhin> :P
13:22:48 <I440r> hehe
13:22:55 <futhin> what's forth.asm ?
13:23:02 <futhin> should i get your pr0n  *.jpg files?!@
13:23:09 <I440r> they arent pron
13:23:17 <I440r> they are fotos of me and of my guns :)O
13:23:46 <futhin> that's pr0n i say!
13:24:10 <I440r> :)
13:24:16 <I440r> did u get isforht tgz ?
13:24:24 <futhin> yes
13:24:28 <futhin> why?
13:24:31 <I440r> ok
13:24:42 <futhin> you wanna disconnect me, to prevent me from getting bot.tgz and mr.tgz? :P
13:24:50 <I440r> theres a bug in abort" in there
13:24:52 <I440r> i fixed it but didnt update yet
13:25:14 <futhin> i'll fix it myself. hmpf! what? you don't think i can code forth? :P
13:26:11 <I440r> its an easy bug - i challenge you to fix it
13:26:28 <I440r> why have you got FIVE idle connections :P
13:26:29 <I440r> he
13:26:33 <futhin> heh
13:26:34 <futhin> leechftp
13:26:37 <futhin> what can you say?
13:26:44 <I440r> heh
13:26:51 <I440r> what files did you get ?
13:26:57 <futhin> the .jpgs
13:26:59 <futhin> and bot.tgzz
13:27:08 <futhin> but not mr.tgz, that file disappeared :D
13:27:08 <I440r> i think bot.tgz has a bug in it now
13:27:17 <I440r> i cant get it to connect
13:27:24 <I440r> thats cuz it was never there
13:27:29 <I440r> you were halucinating :P
13:27:35 <futhin> nope
13:27:39 <futhin> clicked and dragged it
13:27:40 <futhin> that's all
13:27:46 <I440r> heh
13:27:53 <I440r> ull get to see it eventually
13:27:55 <I440r> maybe :)
13:27:58 <I440r> but its not ready yet
13:28:03 <futhin> what is it?
13:28:07 <I440r> secret
13:28:15 <futhin> mr == mrreach
13:28:26 <I440r> maybe :)
13:28:52 <futhin> hm, be more careful about what you put in pub :P
13:29:15 <I440r> heh
13:29:17 <futhin> i notified you, in case you didn't want to distribute it..
13:29:33 <futhin> did i download anything you don't want me to have? :P
13:29:38 <I440r> its still hush hush rite now
13:29:47 <I440r> actually, its not worth distributing yet :P
13:30:32 --- join: Speuler (l@195.30.184.52) joined #forth
13:30:48 <I440r> bongo!
13:30:52 <Speuler> hi agn
13:31:17 * Speuler pulls his imaginary one-man-band out
13:32:06 <futhin> man
13:32:20 <I440r> grr i need mrreach to get back here!
13:32:28 <futhin> it's annoying when people who only know procedural languages like C, pascal, etc..   think all other languages are procedural..
13:32:30 <I440r> i wanna go have a shpower and go code
13:32:34 <futhin> annoying
13:33:05 <Speuler> who is MrBRB ?
13:33:11 <Speuler> not MrGone ?
13:33:32 <Speuler>  MrBRB is ~rreach@209.181.43.190 (Mr. Reach)
13:33:35 <I440r> ya i know
13:34:05 <I440r> brb usually means brb - not - see you next month heh
13:34:20 <Speuler>  MrBRB has been 33 minutes and 36 seconds idle
13:43:08 <MrBRB> yep
13:43:33 <futhin> where's mrreach? hmpf! :P
13:43:33 --- nick: MrBRB -> MrReach
13:43:37 <futhin> ah
13:43:41 <futhin> here he is :P
13:43:50 * MrReach reads backscroll
13:43:58 <futhin> maybe he can tell us what mr.tgz is? :D
13:47:18 <Speuler> g'd evening mrreach
13:48:49 <futhin> it's always a relief when i see people's pictures and they look relatively normal :D
13:49:29 <I440r> hehe
13:49:31 <I440r> u mean me ?
13:49:34 <I440r> NORMAL ???
13:49:35 <I440r> heh
13:49:42 <I440r> i saw fares foto the other day
13:49:45 <I440r> supprised me
13:49:55 <I440r> he looks quite distinguised :)
13:49:55 <futhin> yeah, saw fare, water, you..
13:50:04 <futhin> i'm normal looking too
13:50:07 <futhin> :D
13:51:03 <Speuler> lets me pull the decorative bone out of my nose
13:51:45 <I440r> heh
13:52:11 <I440r> i picture you with a green tipped mohican and eye brow piercings bongo :)
13:52:35 <Speuler> zes, and red stipes from forehead down to chin
13:52:41 <Speuler> yes
13:52:52 <Speuler> (again another kezboard lazout)
13:53:10 <Speuler> keyboard layout
13:53:10 <I440r> heh
13:53:52 <Speuler> seal black camouflage all over the skin
13:54:00 <Speuler> and yellow contact lenses
13:54:09 <futhin> i've actually thought about buying a ninja suit
13:54:13 <futhin> and just walking around in it
13:54:15 <futhin> it'd be fun
13:54:23 <futhin> make it part of my wardrobe
13:54:25 <Speuler> urban spaceman
13:54:36 <futhin> i'd cover up my face
13:54:43 <futhin> just walk around, maybe have a wooden sword
13:54:48 <Speuler> hehe
13:54:49 <futhin> just to bonk people with
13:54:56 <futhin> bushido
13:55:08 <futhin> go to class 
13:55:12 <futhin> in my ninja suit
13:55:30 <MrReach> erm ... what, exactly, is a ninja suit???
13:55:44 <futhin> eh? :(
13:55:56 <futhin> let me find some good pictures then
13:56:36 <futhin> a really ugly suit (not proper fit) http://www.magicmakers.com/retail/ninja/ninjasuit.html
13:57:30 <futhin> note that there are special shoes for fighting that go with it
13:57:32 <futhin> http://www.pentagondefense.com/ninfootspik.html
13:57:45 <I440r> bah ninja's are wimps
13:57:48 <futhin> there's space between your big food and the other feet
13:57:52 <futhin> so you can grip ninja stars
13:57:56 <futhin> and knives
13:57:59 <I440r> a wing chun master would whoop their buts :P
13:58:01 <futhin> and also climb easier
13:59:19 <MrReach> I440r and I were talking about a forth wiki in /msg
13:59:34 <MrReach> for those who don't know what a wiki is, read ... http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiWikiWeb
14:00:07 <futhin> a skilled ninja has insane endurance, can run at very high speed for days if necessary, can hit an object 11 times in a second, can conceal himself with ease, etc :D
14:00:19 <I440r> futhin wants to write a forth for the computer in the topic :)
14:01:21 <I440r> i think his GF made it ;)
14:02:41 <MrReach> futhin: are you serious? ninja were the rejects of the japanese warrior class, who had dishonored themselves and either lacked the courage for suicide or were prevented from it
14:03:04 <MrReach> something like the brawlers you might find in a biker bar today
14:03:20 <I440r> however - the TRUE warrior class used the ninja's to do their dirty work for them
14:03:22 <futhin> haha, this site is funny: http://www.robotfrank.com/evidence.htm
14:03:29 <I440r> which is the same as doing dirty work
14:05:00 <futhin> mrreach: um, ninjas were assassins, there were even powerful ninja clans back in those times..
14:06:17 <futhin> the true warrior class were wimps :D
14:06:20 <futhin> ninjas were leet
14:06:35 <futhin> i440r: this is funny http://www.robotfrank.com/evidence.htm
14:07:48 <I440r> looking...
14:09:54 <I440r> heh
14:10:16 <futhin> ninjas came from nonuse (the art of stealth)  which priests developed and became skilled at, and then ninjas appeared later after that
14:14:04 <MrReach> Ive got guests arriving any minute
14:14:13 <MrReach> so I'll disappear suddenly
14:15:00 <I440r> i got sleep arriving any minute :)
14:15:08 <I440r> c u guys l8er :)
14:15:08 <MrReach> yep, the time has come
14:15:16 <MrReach> be well, all of you.
14:15:19 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
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14:50:06 <onetom> me back :)))
14:50:41 <rob_ert> :)
14:51:13 <onetom> im a bit l8, he? :)
14:51:38 <rob_ert> Yes.
14:51:52 <onetom> nevemind, ive 2 work.
14:52:15 <onetom> the infra sensor query stuff...
14:52:43 <onetom> how come u r always available here?
14:52:57 <onetom> u r the moderator?
14:53:26 <onetom> oooor u r just an intelliget bot? ;)
14:53:41 <onetom> written in 4th, ofcoz ;)
14:54:33 <rob_ert> rob_ert iq .
14:54:35 <rob_ert>  0 ok
14:55:47 <onetom> :)
14:56:06 <onetom> what r u doing anyway?
14:56:12 <onetom> whats your job?
14:56:35 <rob_ert> I'm 15.
14:56:37 <rob_ert> :P
14:57:05 <onetom> eh, u must b jokin! i know :)
14:57:16 <onetom> u must b .... @ least ...
14:57:20 <onetom> hmm, 16? ;)
14:57:32 <rob_ert> In a few days, yes.
14:57:37 <rob_ert> But atm I'm 15.
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15:00:08 <rob_ert> Hi
15:00:10 <rob_ert> night all :-)
15:00:38 <onetom> :-/ hardly believe...
15:00:49 <rob_ert> onetom: ?
15:01:06 <onetom> i mean u r just 15
15:01:10 <rob_ert> lol
15:01:16 <rob_ert> I take that as a compliment ;)
15:01:19 <rob_ert> Night onetom.
15:01:33 <onetom> :) gnight
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15:57:50 <onetom> hi
16:00:00 <Etaoin> hello
16:24:43 <onetom> nothin interesting happenin here. im just enginieering infra-sensor handling code. whats up overthere?
16:26:46 --- nick: onetom -> onetom2
16:27:08 <onetom2> (testing irc)
16:27:56 --- nick: onetom2 -> onetom
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16:53:28 --- nick: uiver -> segher
16:57:59 <segher> hi, anyone awake here? :)
17:04:42 <onetom> yaaa, me awake
17:22:31 --- join: futhin (~thin@h24-64-175-123.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
17:23:28 <futhin> hello etaoin, segher ..
17:25:39 <segher> howdy
17:25:48 <futhin> you do much forth coding?
17:25:53 <segher> yeah
17:26:17 <futhin> got any forth projects besides openbios ?
17:26:36 <segher> heh
17:26:58 <segher> forth was my 2nd compute language
17:28:22 <segher> i'm implementing an indirect threading engine right now
17:28:41 <futhin> what's your 1st?
17:28:43 <segher> i have a small problem ;)
17:28:55 <segher> 1st is 6502 assembler, of course :)
17:29:35 <onetom> could some1 advice a good multitasking/multiuser, portable forth engine?
17:29:48 <segher> gforth is pretty portable
17:30:12 <onetom> and pretty singleuser, yeah
17:30:24 <segher> there are some multitasking packages for it
17:30:46 <segher> no idea how good they are, though
17:30:50 <onetom> anyway gforth too complicated...
17:31:03 <futhin> onetom: how portable/
17:31:06 <futhin> onetom: how portable?
17:31:25 <onetom> "a lot" - life of brian ;)
17:31:32 <futhin> heh
17:31:48 <segher> should binary program images be portable?
17:32:07 <onetom> hmm... well, it would b nice, if it was written in C and forth
17:32:09 <futhin> are you looking for a multitasking & multiuser forth that runs on linux and windows and macos ??
17:32:42 <futhin> onetom: C isn't actually portable..  people have to code c compilers where ever you want to run c..  forth can be ported much easier since only 5 k of code needs to be coded :D
17:32:43 <onetom> mainly linux
17:33:10 <segher> futhin: not the easiest 5k, though ;)
17:33:10 <futhin> why are you looking for a "portable" forth  when you are only interested in linux ??
17:33:19 <futhin> segher: it's pretty easy.. it's asm
17:33:19 <onetom> yeah, u r right, i know ;)
17:33:29 <futhin> segher: but uh, it's more like 2k or maybe 3k
17:33:53 <onetom> coz, l8r id like to port it to 16bit core pic controllers
17:34:25 <futhin> onetom: there's bigforth and there's gforth.   there's also isforth which i440r is coding.  i think he's going to code isforth for windows eventually
17:34:47 <onetom> but for the 1st time, i actually need some guidelines in this area
17:34:57 <futhin> onetom: well that's not really a big deal.  code it on whatever forth you want.  if you want to "port" it to some controllers, all you have to do is modify the low-level words...
17:35:21 <futhin> also, stay with f-83 coding style..  don't do any ANS
17:35:33 <onetom> ok, forget portability now
17:35:36 <futhin> well, you could do ANS, but then you'd have to define all the ANS words
17:35:38 <futhin> if you want to port it
17:35:56 <onetom> lets consider it unimportatn 4 now!
17:36:01 <futhin> heh
17:36:03 <onetom> --------------------
17:36:05 <onetom> tabula rasa
17:36:24 <onetom> lets talk about multitasking/multiuserness
17:36:44 <onetom> how can i find good docs on this topic?
17:36:44 <futhin> yeah ok
17:36:49 <futhin> hm
17:37:02 <futhin> search for them on google? :D
17:37:03 <onetom> i mean, in relation with forth
17:37:26 <onetom> is there any standard describing this?
17:38:05 <onetom> ive seen the word user in many 4thz, but
17:38:17 <futhin> ugh
17:38:20 <futhin> don't say 4thz
17:38:25 <futhin> heh :)
17:38:41 <onetom> havent seen examples and exhaustive explanation of it
17:38:56 <onetom> what should i say instead of 4thz?
17:39:00 <onetom> 4ths?
17:39:05 <onetom> 4thes?
17:39:29 <onetom> really dont know
17:39:33 <futhin> no, you say forths
17:39:45 <onetom> i usually talk about 1 4th, not more
17:39:53 <futhin> then say forth
17:39:57 <futhin> don't use numbers
17:40:14 <futhin> or you'll get kicked :P
17:40:16 <onetom> sorry, i use numbers extensively
17:40:34 <futhin> why? are you a warez script kiddie? 
17:40:45 <onetom> both in english and in my native lang.
17:41:12 <futhin> it's much more readable to have it as "forth" instead of "4th"
17:41:17 <onetom> no, im just a slow typer and its a way speeding me up
17:41:53 <onetom> in the special case of 4th, its a tradition
17:42:15 <onetom> my 1st 4th sys was named 4th-forth
17:42:34 <onetom> i ran on zx spectrum
17:42:47 <onetom> and i was only 7 yrs old
17:43:21 <onetom> and i havent seen other 4ths for ~10yrs
17:43:43 <onetom> so its burnt into me mind
17:44:41 <onetom> and in2 me hands
17:46:13 <onetom> but we have already dicussed it - and other linguistic related problems - yesterday w others
17:46:22 <onetom> so plz skip it
17:47:42 <onetom> s/w /the /
17:49:23 <onetom> anyway, its racism if u say things like: "don't use numbers or you'll get kicked :P"
17:49:48 <onetom> treat is plz just as a cultural difference
17:51:28 <onetom> tabula rasa again, right?
17:54:29 <Etaoin> not realy recism
17:54:36 <Etaoin> er, racism
17:54:41 <onetom> why?
17:55:09 <Etaoin> it's not descriminating against you based on your race
17:55:28 <onetom> ugh, what is race?
17:55:40 <onetom> could u define it plz?
17:55:59 <onetom> from a biological viewpoint
17:56:13 <onetom> its definition is quite clear
17:56:39 <onetom> hmmm... probably u r right
17:56:42 <Etaoin> um? that last sentence seems to contradict what you've been saying
17:56:57 <onetom> not racism, but _____ discrimination
17:57:28 <Etaoin> descrimination against people who type in a way that makes it hard to read
17:57:41 <onetom> yeah, contradicts, coz ive just noticed that probably u r right :)
17:58:01 <onetom> yes, thats it
17:58:06 <Etaoin> here we go
17:58:18 <Etaoin> mind if a paste a big long definition of "race"?
17:58:28 <onetom> well....
17:58:36 <onetom> its not important now
17:58:57 <onetom> ive alrady corrected meself
17:59:00 <Etaoin> and you made me go and look it up. :(
17:59:14 <onetom> its not racism, but _____ discrimination
17:59:33 <onetom> but, anyway, im interested in the definition ;)
18:00:13 <futhin> onetom: people judge each other thru irc by their intelligence, their use of the language, etc..  not by skin color, deformities, etc..  i think the former is much better than the latter.  the latter is not based on logic..
18:00:15 <onetom> @least next time i wont use racism incorrecly
18:00:41 <onetom> m-w? merriam-webster?
18:00:46 <Etaoin> yes
18:01:04 <onetom> wow
18:01:21 <onetom> in this case, i was right
18:01:30 <onetom> the 2nd definition is about me
18:01:58 <futhin> ?
18:02:02 <futhin> paste it
18:02:10 <onetom> tho, i belong to a very special group
18:02:20 <Etaoin> yes. that's not the reason you were about to get kicked, though.
18:02:35 <onetom> than what?
18:02:50 <onetom> then what?
18:04:05 <Etaoin> 2 a : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock b : a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>
18:04:10 <onetom> futhin: my girlfriend is a linguist. she could talk about discrimination caused by language...
18:06:09 <onetom> she has proved me many ways that people do discrimination becasue of lang. tho they dont tend 2 admit it
18:08:32 <onetom> they dont even notice it becasue they dont do it consciously 
18:09:21 <onetom> but lets really skip this topic 4 a while
18:09:34 <Etaoin> I wouldn't mind that
18:10:11 <Etaoin> so, do forth-ers typically construct a type system on top of forth for some stuff or am I influenced too much by higher level languages?
18:10:11 <onetom> u will c - promise - it wont annoy u after an hour of conversation
18:10:29 <onetom> and probably l8r, if u dare 2 try it
18:11:28 <onetom> u will b amazed, but - i could promise it again - u will tend to start applying it
18:11:44 <Etaoin> you have stopped making sense
18:11:48 <Etaoin> to me
18:12:10 <onetom> sorry
18:12:21 <onetom> lets talk about 4th instead
18:13:12 <Etaoin> sure.
18:13:39 <onetom> i do very low level programming in forth
18:14:41 <onetom> so i havent met need of type handling
18:16:12 <Etaoin> well, I'd like to have something that lets me think less
18:16:20 <onetom> w proper "coding style" u wont miss typing
18:17:23 <onetom> tho, i havent found such coding style guide yet
18:18:19 <onetom> but the object oriented extensions come w gforth
18:18:26 <onetom> r quite promising
18:19:36 <onetom> but this area seem very immature
18:20:00 <onetom> there is no standard OO extension, afaik
18:20:20 <Etaoin> all I'd need is a way to define polymorphic functions and a way to store data on an object
18:20:55 <onetom> tho, the docs came w gforth-0.5.0 contains a quite good comparision of 3 object models
18:21:24 <onetom> it has the sources for all these models
18:21:50 <onetom> and their source seemed quite portable 2 me
18:22:11 <onetom> probably u should start w mini-oof.fs
18:22:22 <onetom> its just a couple o lines
18:22:37 <onetom> but yet powerful
18:22:59 <onetom> and has relatively nice "syntax"
18:30:14 <Etaoin> thanks
18:31:38 <onetom> hope me helped u
18:31:53 <onetom> what r u working on, anyway?
18:37:15 <Etaoin> a type system
18:37:33 <onetom> oh, let me warn u, mini-oof is a bit hard 2 understand
18:38:02 <segher> does>
18:38:21 <onetom> i have some diagrams of its memory map of object and classes
18:38:23 <Etaoin> segher: hrm?
18:38:24 <segher> i hate  does>
18:38:31 <onetom> somewhere on paper
18:38:45 <segher> it seems the way i want to implement DODOES is not ANS-compatible
18:39:51 <onetom> how is it incompatible?
18:40:29 <segher> i want to put DODOES into the code field of words using it, and the address of the actual does> part right after it (i.e., in the data field)
18:40:54 <segher> i don't want to have 2-cell big code fields
18:41:33 <segher> (this is ITC, btw)
18:41:34 <futhin> onetom: you can change your lang usage much easier than your skin color.  "when in rome, do as romans do"
18:41:36 <Etaoin> *whoosh*
18:41:44 * Etaoin watches the conversation go over his head
18:42:27 <onetom> :) but when in rome, im in many other places at the same time
18:42:54 <onetom> so its not that ez 2 accomplish that u ask
18:43:12 <segher> with itc (indirect threaded code), each word has a code field, which is the address of a machine code routine that will run the word, and a data field (parameter field), which is parameters to what to run
18:43:59 <segher> so for a normal colon definition word, the code field is DOCOL, and the data field is a list of the execution tokens of the words that make up this word
18:44:13 <segher> etc.
18:45:58 <segher> but if you have e.g.   : constant blword $create , does> @ ;
18:45:58 <futhin> etaoin: basically, in forth, you can create whatever data structure you need, on the fly
18:46:29 <Etaoin> futhin: could you explain that concept a little more?
18:46:58 <segher> any created "constant" will have DODOES in it's code field, but it needs to point to the implementation (@, in this case), as well
18:47:04 <futhin> etaoin: if you prefer to use a particular data structure (such as oop stuff) all the time, you have a file with all the code for that..   you can find oop packages online made by others..  (although data structures aren't always efficient, especially oop, so don't abuse them)
18:47:28 <futhin> etaoin:  give me an example data structure you might want?
18:48:31 <futhin> onetom: the main thing is that you are less understandable when you talk "u r 2 " etc..  but if you are okay with being less understandable, and don't care for people to understand you easily and fully.. then that should be fine..
18:49:13 <futhin> segher: how can you hate does>  it's really easy to understand and use..
18:49:19 <segher> it is
18:49:25 <segher> but i have to _implement_ it
18:49:40 <onetom> futhin: okay, if u say this, there is no problem
18:49:54 <futhin> segher: isn't it usually implemented in asm ?
18:50:00 <segher> sure
18:50:15 <segher> i just don't want my code fields to be two cells big
18:50:24 <onetom> futhin: but plz saw this thread. talk about 4th instead
18:50:44 <futhin> onetom: i am
18:50:47 <onetom> futhin: lets help segher eg :)
18:50:57 <segher> i need to do itc, btw
18:51:19 <segher> i can't guarantee any part of the fictionary to be executable by the actual cpu
18:51:25 <segher> s/fict/dict/
18:52:42 <onetom> segher: what about :noname words?
18:52:50 <segher> what about them?
18:53:15 <segher> open firmware doesn't have :noname :)
18:53:30 <onetom> probably u could implement a DOCOL-DOES
18:53:44 <segher> how does DOCOL-DOES work?
18:54:04 <onetom> what has a list of "meanings" for the word in its pfa
18:54:16 <onetom> param.field - sorry
18:54:22 <segher> yeah
18:54:57 <onetom> CF = DOCOL-DOES PF = addr of DO-part PF+1 = addr of DOES-part
18:55:00 <futhin> segher: what does "two cells big" have to do with does> ? :P
18:55:24 <onetom> then u can define 2 noname words
18:55:39 <onetom> 1 4 DO-part & 1 4 DOES-part
18:56:05 <segher> the normal way to implement DODOES in itc is with a codefield that is 2 cells: DODOES and the address of the does> part
18:56:14 <onetom> and both would b a DOCOL word
18:57:12 <segher> ah
18:57:32 <onetom> u c now?
18:57:36 <onetom> got the point?
18:57:40 <segher> so any word with a does> part will be compiled as a DOCOL-DOES word and two :noname words?
18:57:52 <onetom> yes
18:58:07 <onetom> and the words defined w it
18:58:31 <segher> those will be _copies_ of the does word?
18:58:56 <onetom> iiih, wait a sec, im analyzing the situation
18:59:01 <segher> heh :)
18:59:02 <onetom> got a bit confused :)
18:59:05 <segher> yeah
18:59:26 <segher> that's what does> implementation does to people...  uttermost confusion :)
18:59:46 <onetom> :))))) whaaaa
18:59:47 <onetom> ?
18:59:59 <onetom> hey, a hint:
19:00:03 <segher> :)
19:00:12 <onetom> lets quote 4th words 4 a while
19:00:19 <segher> forth.  for.
19:00:22 <segher> ;)
19:00:30 <onetom> 2 distinct them from english words
19:00:59 <futhin> i type forth words in CAPITALS to distinct them
19:01:04 <futhin> DOES>
19:01:05 <futhin> etc
19:01:18 <segher> <troll>i thought all english words are numeric...  isn't that enough of a distinction?</troll>
19:01:21 <futhin> easier to hit the caps than the "
19:01:26 <segher> futhin: okie
19:01:27 <onetom> segher: probably i would need a bot what do these substitutions 4 me ;)
19:01:38 --- mode: ChanServ set +o futhin
19:02:02 <onetom> okay, lets capitalize them
19:02:07 <segher> good
19:02:26 <onetom> so, repeat the 
19:02:37 <segher> so, we have   : CONSTANT  CREATE ,  DOES>  @  ;
19:02:37 <onetom> that's what does> implementation does... sentence plz
19:02:43 <onetom> oke
19:03:19 <segher> what will this compile into, and what will actual constants compile into?
19:04:02 * onetom visits the place w 2 numbers on its door ;) brb
19:04:07 <futhin> i can give you the F-PC source code for DOES> :P
19:04:15 <segher> heh
19:04:20 <segher> is that itc?
19:04:39 <futhin> dunno :P
19:04:47 <segher> just quote it :)
19:06:18 <futhin> : DOES>
19:06:18 <futhin>         COMPILE (;CODE) HERE X, 232 C, 700 HERE 2+ - , XHERE PARAGRAPH
19:06:18 <futhin>         + DUP XDPSEG ! XSEG @ - , XDP OFF ; IMMEDIATE
19:06:39 <segher> wow
19:06:59 <onetom> ugh? :)
19:07:29 <segher> so,   COMPILE (;CODE)   \  put EXIT (or SEMIS) into the current word's param field
19:07:56 <segher> (just say "right" unless i'm wrong) :)
19:08:40 <segher> what does X, do?
19:09:15 <onetom> it compiles in an eXecution token
19:09:20 <onetom> i guess
19:09:33 <onetom> it is "," actually
19:09:33 <futhin> weird, SEE X doesn't give me anything
19:09:43 <futhin> er
19:09:46 <segher> SEE X,
19:09:52 <futhin> it's asm
19:10:00 <segher> DIS X,
19:10:13 <futhin> nope.. no DIS or DISASSEM
19:10:18 <segher> yuck
19:10:26 <onetom> it must b an f-pc related thing
19:10:46 <onetom> it is an abstraction i think
19:10:55 <futhin> well, i'm not that experienced.. i wouldn't know how to find disassem if there is infact one 
19:10:58 <segher> 232 C,  \  is the radix decimal or what?!?
19:11:38 <onetom> ocatal, i guess again
19:12:23 <segher> i think decimal...  H# E8 is a function call in x86 asm ;)
19:12:42 <onetom> but i could try to explain my example again. what about?
19:12:49 <segher> please do!
19:12:53 <onetom> ok
19:13:10 <onetom> so the example constant def would look like
19:13:48 <onetom> ' DOCOL-DOES ,
19:13:57 <onetom> ' constant-do ,
19:14:00 <onetom> ' constant-does ,
19:14:09 <segher> yes
19:14:15 <onetom> : constant-do create , ;
19:14:27 <onetom> : constant-does @ ;
19:14:32 <onetom> roughly
19:14:57 <segher> right
19:15:05 <onetom> and words created with it would look like
19:15:54 <onetom> DODOES ' constant-does ,
19:16:34 <segher> rright
19:16:42 <onetom> hmmm... seems bad... lemme think a bit more
19:16:51 <futhin> why itc anyways? :(
19:17:05 <onetom> futhin: <hush> ;)
19:17:06 <segher> i can't execute machine code from the dictionary.
19:18:50 <onetom> eh, this isnt either good in this form... :-/
19:19:49 <segher> the problem is that constant-does needs to have the actual constant in its data field.
19:20:22 <onetom> yes, yes
19:20:32 <onetom> ive solved noting
19:21:27 <onetom> but
19:22:20 <onetom> this means we have 2 code does addr into the code field somehow
19:22:26 <futhin> segher: um, is this for openbios?? 
19:22:53 <segher> yeah
19:22:53 <onetom> code field always points to a machine code address
19:22:55 <segher> probably
19:23:08 <segher> onetom: yes
19:23:45 <futhin> openbios seems to be starting off on the wrong foot..  coding a forth in C isn't usually a very good idea, if at all..
19:23:57 <onetom> and - i guess - we cant define codewords, if can exec code from the dict, right?
19:23:59 <segher> trust me
19:24:30 <segher> we can't use CODE , because it's non portable.
19:24:51 <futhin> you don't need CODE
19:25:02 <segher> i'm glad :)
19:25:32 <futhin> but you _do_ need about 67 (or is it 97??) core words.. words that are in CODE
19:25:35 <segher> if all the target cpu's were good risc's, i'd use subroutine threading.
19:25:58 <futhin> if you hope to get a working forth, you need a bunch of core words..
19:26:28 <futhin> segher:  um, subroutine threaded is evil! ..according to I440r
19:26:29 <segher> there are about 400 predefined words in Open Firmware...  but you need to have only about 40-80 of-em in asm
19:27:12 <onetom> I440r, who is actually I404r now :)
19:27:27 <onetom> (but probably its an old joke)
19:27:40 <futhin> eh? i440r is the coder of isforth..
19:27:55 <segher> and i actually _like_ itc.  and it's fast.
19:27:58 <futhin> the guy who started this channel, until i took it over ;)
19:27:59 <onetom> i know, i met him last day
19:28:10 <futhin> segher: why not dtc?  itc and subroutine are both evil apparently..
19:28:20 <segher> dtc is more evil.
19:28:21 <onetom> but he is not here, so he is missing, like a web page, 404, c?
19:28:56 <segher> and i can not (== do not want to) write machine code into the dictionary.  cache coherency issues etc.
19:29:27 <futhin> segher: talk to i440r about dtc, itc, and subroutine.  he'll give you the proper rationale and set you on the right path :D
19:29:46 <futhin> he'd probably be able to help you with DOES> regardless
19:29:46 <segher> i sent a few day reading docs on it already
19:29:54 <segher> that would be great
19:29:58 <onetom> its an exciting problem to solve... i think i should sleep a bit over it
19:30:00 <futhin> i am only a newbie forth coder and a lazy one at that
19:30:17 <segher> the really awful thing (for me) about  DOES> ...
19:30:18 <futhin> segher:  I440r, MrReach, Speuler should all be able to help you with DOES>
19:30:45 <segher> in Open Firmware, you only can use DOES> in words you define in the interactive environment
19:30:55 <segher> so i do not _actually_ care
19:31:02 <segher> only to be really compliant ;)
19:31:32 <segher> thanks
19:31:36 <futhin> why for the love of god is it being coded in C?  spawn of satan will only result! :P
19:31:48 <segher> 1) portability
19:32:13 --- quit: Etaoin ("raise CreativityError, "can't find a good exit message"")
19:32:15 <segher> 2) i like 40 lines of C better than i like 100 lines of asm, multiplied by 30 archs
19:32:27 <onetom> segher: that would really b nice, i one could use such complex constructs like does> in device drivers...
19:32:50 <segher> 3) no, it will _not_ be what is already available in the OpenBios CVS
19:33:22 <segher> onetom: you can fake a lot of stuff like that with open firmware packages
19:33:41 <segher> ...but not really handy
19:34:01 <segher> and we have DEFER as well, of course
19:34:02 <onetom> futhin: whats wrong w C? for example its nothing 2 do w this problem eventually, does it?
19:34:40 * segher thinks he might be able to misuse DEFER for DOES> :)
19:35:50 <onetom> segher: if u can get a solution to this problem, where can i b informed about it?
19:35:58 <futhin> why not code forth in forth?  much easier
19:35:59 <segher> i'll tell you about it here
19:36:08 <onetom> ok
19:36:28 <segher> i'm thinking...  what if i put the extra cell _before_ the code field?
19:36:35 <onetom> and what do u know about multitasking forth?
19:37:04 <onetom> ofw doesnt need multitasking?
19:37:15 <segher> it does multitasking.
19:37:25 <onetom> wow
19:37:30 <segher> with ALARM
19:37:39 <onetom> how? does it follow some standard?
19:38:01 <segher> you just set a routine to execute every n milliseconds
19:38:13 <segher> it's very basic
19:38:50 <onetom> ahha
19:39:06 <onetom> its a simple background task then
19:39:23 <segher> the interpreter just saves all of its state to some stack, and executes the ALARM'ed word to completion, then pops.
19:39:26 <onetom> probably realized by an interrupt routine
19:39:40 <onetom> c
19:39:46 <segher> no, you normally have all interrupts disabled in OF
19:40:07 <onetom> ok ok got it
19:41:09 <segher> for "real" multitasking, you'd have to have some primitives for semaphores and locks and condition variables and stuff like that
19:41:17 <onetom> but dont u know about any standard userlevel interface 2 multitasking?
19:41:25 <segher> nope
19:41:30 <onetom> sad
19:41:37 <segher> i don't think any standard interface exists
19:41:52 <onetom> there is a simple cooperative multitasking example
19:42:04 <onetom> in gforth, but it lacks documentation and
19:42:23 <onetom> examples, usage cases...
19:42:47 <onetom> but id like 2 have a preemptive 1
19:42:52 <segher> for "real" multitasking, each task needs its own stacks
19:43:08 <onetom> w all the ....&whistles os multitaskin
19:43:18 <onetom> semaphores ...
19:43:44 <onetom> yes, each needs
19:44:57 <onetom> and for "real" multitasking, some words must b preemptive
19:45:11 <onetom> so 2 say thread safe
19:45:43 <futhin> segher: forth is _much_ more portable than C.. 
19:45:47 <segher> that's what condition variables or locks are for :)
19:45:54 <segher> futhin: i know :)
19:46:01 <onetom> so defining word, which use the STATE var
19:46:40 <futhin> segher: code openbios in forth plz :~(
19:46:42 <onetom> should use a per-user state var
19:46:43 <onetom> etc
19:46:46 <segher> futhin: i try to keep the main project i work on (vorbis) be as portable C as possible -- nightmare.
19:47:12 <segher> futhin: can't have _all_ in forth.  need an inner interpreter.
19:48:10 <futhin> eh?
19:48:15 <futhin> forth has an inner interpreter...
19:48:19 <segher> yes
19:48:25 <segher> and it isn't written in forth.
19:48:29 <onetom> but only if we need multiuserness...
19:49:14 <onetom> but neeeeed multiuserness tooo!
19:49:19 <onetom> :(
19:49:42 <onetom> but cant find enough help on the net on this topic
19:49:43 <futhin> onetom: you can code multiuser into whatever forth you are using..
19:49:45 <futhin> hm
19:49:51 <futhin> just make a fancy loop :P
19:49:58 <segher> yyyeah :)
19:50:22 <onetom> im sure i have to reimplement emit and key
19:50:42 <onetom> but id like to have former examples
19:50:50 <segher> ' NOOP DUP TO EMIT TO KEY
19:50:57 <segher> ;)
19:51:06 <onetom> to c whether am i right
19:51:14 <onetom> :)
19:52:06 <segher> brb
19:53:10 <onetom> anyway, tile 4th has quite good support for such things, but its not multiuser
19:53:29 <onetom> tho, it also has the word USER
19:53:43 <onetom> i dont know how to use it :(
19:53:45 <futhin> onetom: what have you found on multiuser forth ?
19:54:02 <onetom> phew, not much...
19:54:11 <onetom> mainly very expensive,
19:54:19 <onetom> very weired,
19:54:27 <onetom> very windows oriented,
19:54:35 <onetom> very not opensource
19:54:38 <onetom> stuff
19:55:07 <futhin> onetom: no, i mean, have you found any documents on it?
19:55:16 <onetom> no.
19:55:19 <futhin> telling you how to do it..
19:55:22 <onetom> and thats my main problem
19:55:31 <onetom> i dont really want
19:55:45 <onetom> some1 else to solve the problem instead of me
19:56:04 <onetom> i mean the specific problem
19:56:08 <futhin> which is more important, multiuser or multitasking ??
19:56:41 <onetom> but a general thesis or some standard would b great
19:56:58 <onetom> hm, good question...
19:57:32 <futhin> there's a big diff..  multitasking forths are easier to find documents for :D
19:57:35 <futhin> and code
19:58:00 <onetom> u can hardly implement a multiuser environment w/o multitasking
19:58:49 <futhin> my mistake.. ITC is the way to go, no subroutine..  i dunno about DTC
19:58:59 <onetom> in this case, could help me w such docs?
19:59:11 <futhin> onetom: regardless, i've come accross multitasking forths and multitasking documents..
20:00:20 <onetom> a good multitasking guide would also b helpful, because i dont know much about it yet
20:01:12 <onetom> but the way it is implemented in forth is more important
20:02:11 <onetom> but this multiuser thing what drives me really crazy...
20:02:27 <onetom> ive seen the word USER in many 4ths
20:03:22 <onetom> but there is no theoretical explanation about how to implement a multiuser system using it
20:05:43 <onetom> i would happily implement these things if would knew what interface should i implement
20:09:19 <segher> onetom: from the gforth manual:
20:09:21 <segher>    The defining word User behaves in the same way as Variable. The difference is that it reserves space in user (data)
20:09:21 <segher>    space rather than normal data space. In a Forth system that has a multi-tasker, each task has its own set of user
20:09:21 <segher>    variables.
20:10:10 <onetom> yes, i knew it
20:10:16 <onetom> but nothing else
20:10:41 <onetom> no f.kkkin examples on it
20:10:52 <segher> even USER itself isn't standard
20:10:57 --- join: qless (~cerberus@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
20:11:14 <qless> heya folks
20:11:17 <onetom> wow, this channel is logged...
20:11:32 <qless> Big Channel Logger is Watching You
20:11:44 <onetom> thats great! :)
20:12:30 <segher> where can we view the logs?
20:12:39 <qless> you in, fu the thin?
20:12:58 <qless> ./whois clog
20:13:15 <segher> ah cool
20:15:29 <onetom> so, guys, if some1 could valuable help on this multi* topic
20:15:35 <onetom> plz inform me!
20:15:47 <qless> you want to do multi-user forth right?
20:15:54 <onetom> yes
20:15:59 <qless> what platform?
20:16:14 <onetom> linux will do 4 the 1st time
20:16:28 <qless> hmmm
20:16:54 <qless> what distribution of linux u using?
20:16:57 <onetom> but, i think is a platform independent problem
20:17:04 <onetom> debian
20:17:13 <qless> well you're off to a good start
20:17:19 <qless> <--- debian maintainer
20:17:23 <futhin> qless howdy
20:17:32 <qless> howdy futhin
20:17:43 <futhin> no you fool! talk like yoda :P
20:18:05 <qless> strong is the force
20:18:15 <onetom> qless: what pkgs do u maintain?
20:18:44 <qless> httperf and bigforth (which hasn't been totally packaged yet)
20:19:11 <qless> i'm still waiting for the dam to setup my account... so i'm 99% there anyway
20:20:15 <qless> so onetom, when you say multiuser, you mean u want to use words like PAUSE etc to switch between different execution contexts?
20:22:24 <qless> uhoh, has my connection died?
20:22:33 <onetom> well, not really
20:22:53 <onetom> no, not your connection, just me ;)
20:23:32 <qless> you want to spawn new unix processes via forth, or use threads?  that kind of thing?
20:23:34 <onetom> so i like to implement a web interface for 4th
20:24:04 <qless> hmmm
20:24:38 <onetom> id like 2 access say variables in a running forth prg
20:24:49 <onetom> via a web interface
20:26:37 <qless> sounds like you're getting into the realm of javascript or java if you want to talk to a forth engine via web, or perhaps a line at a time via forms?
20:26:56 <onetom> threads would make life easier i guess, but its not evitable for such a task, eg
20:27:24 <onetom> tho, id like to learn to use and learn to implement multitasking in forth
20:28:15 <onetom> i dont need a live connection w forth, so
20:28:24 <onetom> no javascript is needed
20:28:49 <onetom> probably a form interface would do the job
20:29:54 <qless> have u looked at bernd paysan's 'bigforth'?
20:30:12 <onetom> well... is it free&opensourceM
20:30:13 <onetom> ?
20:30:15 <qless> http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/bigforth.html
20:30:19 <qless> free and opensource
20:30:45 <qless> its the best forth i've found for talking directly to the underlying shared libraries on unix
20:30:53 <qless> which sounds like something you want to do
20:31:14 <onetom> and its not yet in debian, because of u. am i right? ;)
20:31:46 <qless> hehe.  partly.  if you know the debian account manager, you might give him/her a nudge for me :-)
20:31:52 <onetom> i dont want to make forth a webserver
20:33:03 <qless> ok, then you could make a html page that contains a form, and submit what it gets into gforth.  would that work?
20:33:21 <qless> u would need to do a little cgi magic...
20:33:34 <futhin> qless: why am i coding my forth mud in gforth then?  (i have to figure out the sockets library interfacing)
20:34:24 <onetom> brb (after the 1st lines of big4ths webpg it still seems promisin, but will c. thx 4 the tip)
20:35:06 <qless> futhin:  not 100% sure completely but links to the c library, gforth has not
20:35:15 <onetom> qless: and, yes, i do it at the moment w cgi scripts via files
20:35:31 <qless> onetom: oh cool
20:35:42 <onetom> qless: but id like to have a more sophisticated solution
20:36:02 <futhin> qless: mrreach recommended gforth for the task.. and for interfacing with the libraries..  it's not well documented, but it does interface with the libraries..
20:36:14 <onetom> qless: and currently, i dont have a method, to get the info back from forth
20:36:30 <onetom> qless: now, i only can inject info into it
20:36:34 <onetom> but brb
20:36:41 <qless> onetom: ok
20:36:52 <qless> futhin:  with gforth, qless is not so familiar
20:37:08 <qless> but the force is with mrreach, so go with it
20:38:56 <qless> futhin: i think you could create gforth wrappers to the sockets library, compile them, then have them available as words to gforth, similar to how i/o is handled
20:40:17 <futhin> qless: check out the logs, i named myself thelazycoder and referred to myself in third person the whole time :D
20:40:21 <futhin> it was really annoying
20:41:21 * qless logs?  logs?  we don't need no steenking logs
20:41:25 <qless> i'll take your word for it
20:41:48 * onetom is back
20:41:57 <qless> wb onetom
20:42:35 <qless> onetom, have u checked out comp.lang.forth on usenet?
20:42:55 <futhin> qless: maybe mrreach isn't that familiar with bigforth and more familiar with gforth..
20:42:59 <onetom> ah, not yet. i dont know how to use the news system
20:43:07 <futhin> qless: is it really easy to interface with the sockets library in bigforth?
20:43:17 <onetom> im a bit lammer on some areas, i know
20:43:29 <futhin> don't worry, i'm a lammer too
20:43:45 <onetom> futhin: gforth is a terrible piece of stuff, anyway
20:44:10 <onetom> tho, it documentation is gettin better
20:44:19 <onetom> the code is still weired
20:44:36 <onetom> hard to understand
20:44:47 <qless> futhin:  when you say 'sockets' i'm assumeing you mean the lowest level, which is available in the c library proper.  all the other 'sockets' libraries are really high level wrappers in other languages to the c lib
20:45:18 <qless> and yes, bigforth will talk to the c library just fine
20:46:23 <futhin> sockets as in internet interfacing..
20:46:39 <qless> onetom:  'tin' is a good debian package for reading/posting to usenet
20:46:49 <qless> futhin: yep
20:47:09 <onetom> thx. it was one of my unanswered questions last day ;)
20:47:30 <onetom> but i dont know much about the news system itself
20:47:41 <onetom> its just like email, but
20:47:47 <qless> onetom:  its just like a bulletin board
20:47:48 <onetom> somehow different
20:47:58 <qless> onetom:  with about 30,000 different subject areas
20:48:15 <onetom> aha. and?
20:48:26 <onetom> what does news servers do?
20:48:40 <onetom> where r all these messages stored?
20:48:44 <futhin> qless:  can i use any of the higher level libraries/
20:49:02 <qless> news servers talk to other news servers and store and forward articles so that most of them travel around the world in less than 24 hours
20:49:20 <onetom> is it one system or any1 can create an own net of news servers, like ircnets?
20:49:48 <futhin> qless:  can i use any of the higher level libraries?
20:49:53 <futhin> the socket libraries..
20:50:17 <qless> futhin: there are no 'socket' libraries.  all the arpanet socket interfaces to the kernel are in the C library
20:50:31 <qless> onetom:  you could create your own news server on your linux box
20:51:00 <qless> onetom:  suck down the articles from the groups you want to read, and store them locally
20:51:11 <onetom> aha
20:51:34 <onetom> and where can i inform about the available newsgroups?
20:52:00 <onetom> and should i dl the list of the groups?
20:52:16 <onetom> its quite large...
20:52:32 <qless> are you on a modem or dsl/cable?
20:52:40 <onetom> many yrs before i tired to setup a
20:52:41 <onetom> adsl
20:53:07 <onetom> but its a phylosophical question
20:53:13 <qless> does your isp provide a news server (probably does)?
20:53:18 <onetom> not a practical 1 :)
20:53:23 <onetom> aha
20:53:29 <onetom> probably
20:53:36 <onetom> lets consider it has
20:53:39 <qless> ever used telnet?
20:53:47 <onetom> sure :)
20:54:06 <qless> then 'telnet an.open.news.server.somewhere.net 119'
20:54:18 <qless> and type 'list active'
20:54:53 <onetom> and what does it do? what does active mean?
20:55:08 <onetom> tom@ex:~> ping news.vnet.hu
20:55:08 <onetom> PING www.vnet.hu (213.163.59.6): 56 data bytes
20:55:08 <onetom> ping: sendto: Operation not permitted
20:55:08 <onetom> ping: wrote www.vnet.hu 64 chars, ret=-1
20:55:15 <segher> depends on your system.
20:55:15 <onetom> great... :-/
20:55:38 <onetom> vnet is my isp...
20:55:55 <qless> try news.vnewt.hu
20:56:22 <onetom> ?
20:56:40 <qless> onetom:  i have to do something else... i'll be back in 10-15
20:56:46 <onetom> k
20:56:51 <onetom> thx in advance
20:57:23 <onetom> until u come back, i ll do the same - someting else
20:57:37 <onetom> what a coincidence :)
20:59:13 <onetom> ugh, i have leafnode installed. do i need that?
21:05:16 <segher> later
21:05:18 --- part: segher left #forth
21:20:26 <qless> onetom, i'll be back in about 5
21:24:24 <futhin> i'm gonna go
21:25:18 <qless> goodnight futhin
21:25:28 <qless> may the farce be with you
21:27:09 <futhin> onetom: i found a multitasking forth..
21:27:12 <futhin> http://www.ddj.com/ftp/1996/1996.03/
21:27:18 <futhin> check forth.txt and forth.zip
21:27:23 <futhin> the article unfortunately isn't online
21:27:37 <futhin> qless: farce yourself :P
21:27:58 <qless> hehe
21:28:36 * qless slaps futhin around a bit with a large trout
21:28:39 --- topic: set to 'the channel for forth lammers | can you imagine forth coding on this beauty?! http://www.exonome.com/fj/phkl/ |  I'm starting a support group for people who are too lazy to code.  Msg me. :P' by futhin
21:28:59 --- mode: futhin set -o futhin
21:30:32 <qless> what the heck is a lammer?
21:31:04 <futhin> dunno
21:31:09 <futhin> a mysterious creature
21:47:31 * qless please don't feed the lammers
21:47:58 --- topic: set to 'please don't feed the forth lammers | can you imagine forth coding on this beauty?! http://www.exonome.com/fj/phkl/' by ChanServ
21:48:08 --- topic: set to 'please don't feed the forth lammers' by ChanServ
21:48:17 <qless> :-)
21:48:21 <futhin> ugh
21:48:25 <futhin> got a good topic idea?
21:48:31 <futhin> we need a good topic
21:48:51 <qless> hmmm
21:49:07 --- topic: set to 'where the norse gods of computers gather, to discuss and code forth' by ChanServ
21:49:10 <futhin> how about that? :P
21:49:20 <qless> oooh, i want to be loki
21:49:24 <futhin> heh
21:50:50 <qless> rob_ert will be happy
21:50:59 <futhin> about what?
21:51:03 <futhin> i'm actually going to change it
21:51:05 <qless> about the norse god thing
21:51:10 <futhin> hm
21:51:16 <futhin> maybe i should keep it i guess..
21:51:18 <qless> since he is, by definition, norse
21:51:54 <futhin> i was going to change it to "where we try to answer philosophical questions about forth"  or some such
21:52:09 <qless> impressive
21:52:43 <qless> but only do--there is no try.  --yoda
21:52:54 <qless> "do or not do"
21:53:10 <futhin> "does> or not does>
21:53:12 <futhin> bah
21:53:24 <qless> :-)
21:53:37 <futhin> which topic do you think is best? current one or the philosophical one?
21:53:54 <qless> i like the first
21:54:40 <qless> so how is your mud coming?
21:55:41 <futhin> it's not :(
21:55:47 <futhin> i haven't gotten off my ass to figure out sockets
21:55:56 <futhin> maybe you could help me?
21:56:01 <qless> you have a unix box?
21:56:05 <qless> sure, if i can
21:56:47 <futhin> no i don't have a unix box
21:56:48 <futhin> heheh
21:56:53 <futhin> that's the other problem :P
21:57:25 <qless> hmmm, what kind of box do you have?  messysoft?
21:58:54 <futhin> yeah, well, i actually had linux installed before, but then a bunch of stuff happened along with some poor rationalizations
21:59:13 <futhin> but um, i can't install linux on this comp
21:59:32 <futhin> because i'm using ezdrive thingie..  because my hdd is bigger than my mobo supports
21:59:45 <futhin> hmm
21:59:47 <futhin> no space either
22:00:14 <qless> well if you're stuck developing on windoze, things are going to be a little different
22:00:36 <futhin> yeah, well i have 2 shell accounts
22:00:38 <futhin> but i have a router
22:00:51 <futhin> and gave dmz to my roommates comp
22:01:01 <futhin> and the portforwarding doesn't seem to work for my ssh client..
22:01:14 <futhin> i'll have to get off my ass and figure out that too
22:01:16 <futhin> :P
22:01:20 <qless> using teraterm and ttssh?
22:01:26 <futhin> no, i'm using putty
22:01:38 <qless> check out the above.  its quite fine for <2.0 ssh
22:01:48 <futhin> putty is quite fine.. small, free..
22:01:57 <qless> oh ok
22:03:31 <qless> well if u want to extend gforth into the sockets dimension, you're going to need to be able to compile gforth on whatever accounts you've got i think
22:04:22 <futhin> yeah
22:04:27 <futhin> i did that on one of them
22:04:31 <qless> you could also try bigforth, but its a whole new ballgame and might be harder to use without its x interface
22:05:02 <futhin> eh?
22:05:16 <futhin> gforth has an x interface?
22:05:28 <qless> bigforth has an x interface
22:05:32 <futhin> i use console, i'm a console man all the way baby :P
22:05:43 <qless> sure, you can run bigforth on the console too
22:05:51 <futhin> hm
22:08:09 <qless> you might start looking at 'man 7 socket' if the account you've got is a linux box
22:08:10 <futhin> ttyl
22:08:12 <futhin> bed time
22:08:16 --- quit: futhin ("sleep")
22:08:37 <qless> onetom, are you still alive?
22:17:44 --- join: rob_ert (~robert@h173n2fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth
22:18:12 <qless> heya rob_ert
22:19:21 <rob_ert> Hi :)
22:19:30 <qless> like the topic?
22:19:34 <rob_ert> :)
22:19:50 <rob_ert> norse gods... I'm from Sweden dammit :P
22:20:01 <qless> sweden is not norse?
22:20:11 <rob_ert> Uhm... what is norse?
22:20:12 <rob_ert> :)
22:20:19 <rob_ert> Sounds too much like Norway.
22:20:35 <qless> i always thought norse was norway, sweden, and finland, but i could be totally out to lunch
22:20:48 <rob_ert> Scandinavia...
22:20:55 <rob_ert> If you add Denmark.
22:21:05 <rob_ert> And "norden", if you add Iceland to that.
22:21:05 <qless> yeah, denmark too
22:21:17 <rob_ert> Maybe Norden = norse.. ;)
22:21:22 <qless> what's your latitude?
22:22:51 <rob_ert> I'm in Stockholm.
22:24:09 <qless> thats about 59'20"
22:24:15 <rob_ert> The 3 capitals are on the same lattitudes, btw...
22:24:23 <rob_ert> Oslo - Stockholm - Helsingfost
22:24:27 <rob_ert> Helsingfors*
22:24:41 <rob_ert> Why did you ask?
22:25:01 <rob_ert> To show that you know better than me what lattitude I'm on? :P
22:25:05 <qless> that's almost the arctic circle.  norse enough for me
22:25:14 <rob_ert> Heh
22:25:17 <rob_ert> It's far away....
22:25:28 <qless> i'm at 51'05"
22:25:30 <rob_ert> That's in the northen parts of this country.
22:25:37 <rob_ert> Where's that, Congo?
22:25:45 <qless> canada
22:26:20 <qless> yes, the tiny island of canada
22:26:55 <rob_ert> Canada, _that's_ an arctic country :)
22:27:04 <qless> yes it is
22:27:32 <qless> but one can grow grapes in the southern areas, so good enough for me
22:27:49 <rob_ert> Here you can grow...uhmm...apples :)
22:28:13 <qless> good to make apple cider :)
22:29:04 <rob_ert> Potatisbrännvin.
22:29:33 <qless> wine from earth potatoes?
22:29:56 <rob_ert> Most potatoes come from earth, but yes.
22:30:18 <rob_ert> brännvin = wine with less water, and more alcohol
22:30:38 <qless> whups, got confused.  of course
22:30:46 <rob_ert> :-)
22:31:34 <qless> i was thinking pomme de terre, which is a potato in french
22:34:46 <rob_ert> Hehe, is your native tounge french?
22:35:16 <qless> nope, but canada is like vissychoise:  cold, partly french, and difficult to stir
22:35:20 <qless> :-)
22:38:18 <qless> http://directory.google.com/Top/Home/Cooking/Soups_and_Stews/Chilled/Vichyssoise/
22:39:26 * rob_ert bakes a canadian.
22:39:58 * qless lucily /me is mexican
22:50:26 * qless tries the koettbullar
22:50:50 <rob_ert> köttbullar...
22:51:24 <rob_ert> k -> [ch]
22:51:42 <qless> ah
22:51:58 <rob_ert> ö -> hmm...
22:52:02 <rob_ert> don't know if you have that
22:52:25 <qless> as in 'oat'?
22:54:43 <rob_ert> No.
22:55:11 <rob_ert> More like the 'u' in "uuuuh..."
22:56:34 <qless> uuuuh?
22:59:01 <rob_ert> :)
22:59:10 <rob_ert> going to school, cu later
22:59:18 <qless> ciao
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.03.03