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08:55:34 --- topic: 'do drop >in  -- Extra Extra - Read all about it - (;code) (;uses) and does> all now work in IsForth - shock horror!'
08:55:34 --- topic: set by I440r on [Tue Jan 29 16:23:38 2002]
08:55:34 --- names: list (clog @ChanServ oxygene)
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09:20:00 <futhin> hey oxygene
09:20:27 <oxygene> hey
09:21:11 <futhin> yay, chuck moore responded to my email :P
09:22:08 <futhin> it was a stupid question though. . "what would a publication standard look like"
09:22:27 <oxygene> wow... :)
09:22:32 <oxygene> "publication standard" ?
09:23:16 <futhin> yeah, he thinks ANS standard sucks, and that forth needs a publication standard, rather than an execution standard (like ANS)
09:23:23 <oxygene> hmm... I think I found the ideal combination of programming languages for a modern computer: forth for Firmware and lowlevel OS, smalltalk for the high level stuff
09:24:29 <futhin> you could implement smalltalk within forth, and then have both smalltalk and forth equally accessible
09:25:00 <oxygene> yes, something like that
09:25:36 <oxygene> squeak can compile smalltalk into c-code so it can be linked into the vm-executor - if it'd be forth, it could be linked on runtime and is platform independent
09:25:50 <futhin> i don't know smalltalk yet, but i don't see why forth can't be as high-level as you need it.  remember simply coding in forth creates a new language..
09:27:03 <oxygene> of course, but the smalltalk language is a very clean OO-language, therefore very useful for highlevel stuff like GUI
09:27:03 <oxygene> I think it's pretty easy to implement it in forth (as the language core is even smaller than forth's)
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15:04:40 <TheBlueWizard> hiya
15:04:40 <futhin> hihi
15:04:40 <futhin> how's it going? :)
15:05:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya futhin ... I notice you power grabbed #forth from I440r :)
15:05:19 <TheBlueWizard> doing fine...I am at work; I will be departing soon
15:05:35 <TheBlueWizard> I showed Linux to a couple friends at work
15:05:37 <TheBlueWizard> :)
15:05:43 <TheBlueWizard> (I'm on my laptop)
15:05:44 <futhin> heh
15:05:53 <futhin> they've never seen linux before? 
15:05:57 <futhin> wow :P
15:05:59 <TheBlueWizard> nope
15:06:12 <TheBlueWizard> at my work everything is M$!!!!!
15:06:14 <TheBlueWizard> :P
15:06:25 <futhin> yeah
15:06:35 <futhin> you are doing networking/security?
15:06:45 <TheBlueWizard> yes, plus other things
15:06:57 <futhin> how familiar are you with forth/
15:07:38 <TheBlueWizard> I used to write Forth stuff for fun on C-64...haven't actually done much since then...but I do find it sexy ;)
15:07:58 <futhin> heheh, nice to hear ;)
15:08:12 <TheBlueWizard> bet you're coding in Forth for eons :)
15:08:32 <futhin> what's that supposed to mean? heh
15:08:46 <TheBlueWizard> by the way, I have come to realize Forth's limitations as well as its power
15:09:06 <TheBlueWizard> huh?  how familiar are you with Forth?
15:09:20 <futhin> discovered it 8 months ago
15:09:28 <futhin> somewhat familiar
15:09:32 <futhin> haven't really coded much
15:09:36 <TheBlueWizard> oh?  so you're a relative newbie, eh?
15:09:41 <futhin> but i understand stuff like does>
15:09:49 <futhin> yeah i'm pretty newbie
15:09:52 <TheBlueWizard> I learned about Forth about 15 years ago
15:09:58 <TheBlueWizard> cool
15:10:35 <futhin> what limitations?
15:10:42 <futhin> why aren't you coding in forth these days?
15:10:44 <TheBlueWizard> when I spotted an item "C-64 Forth" (a cartridge for C-64) in an electronic store
15:10:46 <futhin> when are you gonna get back into forth? :P
15:11:02 <futhin> when are you gonna join forth orgy of sexy ppl? :P
15:11:33 <TheBlueWizard> long story....time limit, many projects, many chores, etc...I need to do grocery shopping tonite (ran out of milk)
15:11:45 <TheBlueWizard> lol re: orgy proposal
15:11:59 <futhin> i don't really see any limitations.  forth can do anything, and it can do many things in a simpler way than i could do in some other language
15:12:51 <futhin> i'm interested what you think are forth's limitations as well as powers.. 
15:12:53 <TheBlueWizard> one limitation is that Forth lacks decent organization (e.g. how do you deal with naming while developing a very large app, like, say, a graphic web browser)
15:13:42 <TheBlueWizard> another:  suppose I need a systematic scan of source code for something...Forth's laissez faire approach to programming proves to be a problem
15:14:05 <futhin> yeah
15:14:07 <TheBlueWizard> I could go on....but you get the idea
15:14:30 <futhin> other limitations that i percieve:  poor support, no real newbie-friendliness for forth.. etc..
15:14:40 <futhin> my solution
15:14:52 <futhin> Forth OS!  TA DA DA DUM DA DUMDAAAAAA :P
15:15:46 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...also many dialects of Forth prevents it from being really portable....actually, it is really an issue of standardization and agreements on API stuff...just a Forth OS would not solve much
15:16:21 <futhin> eh? i don't care about the implementations etc.  Forth OS would be its own implementation, and it would be portable across architectures
15:16:45 <futhin> it would be a consistent standardized easy to understand implementation, etc..
15:17:03 * TheBlueWizard points to his previous arguments as the resason why
15:17:53 <futhin> eh??
15:18:03 <TheBlueWizard> eg namespace issue (Forth has a weak notion, provided by VOCABULARY), library routines (eg Internet API), ....
15:18:34 <futhin> it's not like this Forth OS is going to run code besides forth code..
15:18:55 <TheBlueWizard> even then there is still some issues...
15:19:08 <futhin> those issues can be solved right? :)
15:19:51 <TheBlueWizard> if you define them yourself, then great
15:20:37 <TheBlueWizard> basically put, you'd have to define a new standard...like standard for doing string manipulations, standard for doing floating point math, ....
15:21:17 <futhin> well vocabulary would need to be improved or some other word would be defined since we'll have applications and we'll want them to run separately, not to conflict in code, etc
15:21:45 <futhin> well yeah, it's not like anybody likes ANS Standard
15:21:49 <futhin> it's not like there's any standard in place
15:22:04 <TheBlueWizard> then again there are many Forthers who disagree on what should constitutes the "Forth way" of doing something
15:22:04 <TheBlueWizard> sometimes rather violently :)
15:22:11 * TheBlueWizard nods
15:22:20 <TheBlueWizard> now you see my points, yes?
15:22:29 <futhin> good, tell them to bring their guns to the pub!
15:22:36 <futhin> we'll have a good old fashioned shootout :P
15:22:49 <futhin> we need to get forth coders riled up
15:23:14 <futhin> i once got on CLF and told everyone to come to #forth on irc.openprojects.net   only 1 person came.  bastards! :P
15:23:23 <TheBlueWizard> LOL....anarchy rulez!   Uh-oh...run!  The Bushies are coming to arrest us cuz we're being called terrorists! ;)
15:23:47 <TheBlueWizard> lol re: recruitment effort
15:23:58 <futhin> i'm thinking of a new one
15:24:00 <futhin> a really leet one
15:24:10 <futhin> ask chuck moore to come to this channel for like an hour
15:24:23 <futhin> advertise on CLF that ppl can get on and ask questions
15:24:28 <futhin> moderate the whole thing
15:24:35 <futhin> isn't it a slick idea? :P
15:24:46 <TheBlueWizard> now that'd be a l33t thing to do...but Chuck has a polemizing effect on many people....
15:25:01 <futhin> heh
15:25:07 * TheBlueWizard shrugs
15:25:09 <futhin> i worship chuck
15:25:15 <TheBlueWizard> he is a radical minimalist
15:25:27 <futhin> so? forth is a radical minimalist language
15:25:42 <TheBlueWizard> it has a value....but one can go only so far....
15:25:46 <futhin> i think it's bizarre that ppl will use forth and then disagree with chuck moore..
15:25:53 <TheBlueWizard> lol
15:26:01 <futhin> what do you mean "but one can only go so far..."  ?
15:26:31 <futhin> sure, it's probably too minimalist, forth coders should start building a bigger system, like a Forth OS to replace windows/unix/etc
15:27:14 <futhin> and only forth coders on #forth can join FNRC (Forth's New Ruling Class) and get to code on the Forth OS ;)
15:27:26 <futhin> except for chuck moore, he's automatically in :P
15:27:36 <TheBlueWizard> something along that line of thought, yeah...eg Chuck deems floating point stuff irrelevant (methink), multiple apps being unnecessary, and so on
15:28:19 <TheBlueWizard> lol....and what do you view I440r...a fellow member?
15:28:45 <futhin> well, floating point stuff _is_ irrelevant, and can be easily abstracted from fixed point math, so that ppl can think they are using floating point math when it is actually being done in fixed point.    besides, it depends on the architecture.  today, floating point math is pretty fast
15:29:25 <TheBlueWizard> abstraction is one thing...mapping it to architecture is another thing
15:29:45 --- topic: set to 'do drop >in, if you don't, you won't be able to join FNRC (Forth New Ruling Class) | -- Extra Extra - Read all about it - (;code) (;uses) and does> all now work in IsForth - shock & horror!' by futhin
15:30:02 <TheBlueWizard> lol
15:30:50 <futhin> well for each architecture parts of forth will be coded for it
15:31:24 <futhin> hey, i read that ANS Standard actually killed Forth.  before ANS came out, there were 40,000 memebers in FIG, after, there's only 2,000 in FIG
15:31:41 * TheBlueWizard blinks
15:31:54 <futhin> pretty amazing eh? :)
15:32:03 <futhin> that's why ANS Standard is evil
15:32:44 <TheBlueWizard> things have changed a lot...the advent of 32-bit systems and the demand for more complicated stuff has pushes Forth to a corner....
15:32:54 <TheBlueWizard> now that's radical coming from you hehe
15:33:32 * TheBlueWizard is quite pragmatic about things
15:35:13 <futhin> it's bullshit that "32-bit systems, demand for more complicated stuff, etc" has pushed Forth into a corner.  i know why Forth is in a corner, it's because it was never promoted properly, it was never developed to please many programmers, it was never user-friendly/newbie-friendly, etc..
15:35:28 <futhin> plus, the older forths,
15:36:18 <futhin> FIG-Forth, Forth-79, Forth-83 never actually implemented much, they were pretty minimalist because the coders believed that other forth coders did not want to be hindered by a large forth implementation, that other forth coders would extend their forths themselves
15:36:19 <TheBlueWizard> by demand I'm talking about the market...the consumers don't care a shit about what's under the hood...
15:36:26 <futhin> yes true
15:37:13 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...there is that urge for minimalism...also the machines back then don't have much memory...say 32K RAM...so this urge for minimalism makes sense
15:37:41 <futhin> forth is fast, it's fast to code in, etc.. no reason why we can't be using it to code every application out there
15:38:31 <TheBlueWizard> technically no reason, yeah...but practically...?  has anyone actually pulled off developing a one meg sized app?
15:39:12 <TheBlueWizard> Forth has a way of "hating" the notion of "application" anyway
15:39:55 <futhin> what's the need for a one meg-sized app? just because some app is 16 megs in some other language, does it mean it'll be 16 megs in forth?
15:40:07 <futhin> or will it be 160k in forth? :)
15:40:32 <futhin> forth coders don't really seem to do much :(
15:40:45 <TheBlueWizard> a 16 meg app in language X would be 1 meg app in Forth....now it is a 1 meg app :P
15:41:26 <TheBlueWizard> I often say "stop whining, code away!" ;)
15:42:12 <futhin> no, what i mean is, forth coders don't really seem to code much..
15:42:26 <futhin> they seem to be lazy or something lol :P
15:42:35 <futhin> my idea for solving this problem is:
15:42:56 <futhin> online collaborative forth universe!!!!
15:44:10 <TheBlueWizard> :)
15:44:19 <TheBlueWizard> well, I need to go now...bye!
15:44:34 <futhin> noooooo
15:44:34 <futhin> noooooo
15:44:46 <futhin> let me tell you about my leet collaborative forth universe!! :(
15:44:51 <TheBlueWizard> must go home...must shop....
15:44:56 <TheBlueWizard> bye
15:44:57 <futhin> heh
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23:46:21 --- topic: 'do drop >in, if you don't, you won't be able to join FNRC (Forth New Ruling Class) | -- Extra Extra - Read all about it - (;code) (;uses) and does> all now work in IsForth - shock & horror!'
23:46:21 --- topic: set by futhin on [Thu Jan 31 15:29:45 2002]
23:46:21 --- names: list (clog @ChanServ oxygene)
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