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11:41:51 <I440r> and the word of the day is.....
11:41:56 <I440r> BLEH!
11:45:24 <I440r> (;uses) now works - (;code) and does> still segfault
14:52:23 <I440r> (;code) works
14:52:26 <I440r> does> works
14:52:31 <I440r> YYYYYEEEEE  HHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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16:18:56 <I440r> hio
16:19:28 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r
16:20:02 --- topic: set to 'Extra Extra - Read all about it - (;code) (;uses) and does> all now work in IsForth - shock horror!' by I440r
16:20:47 <kholmes> cool...congrats
16:20:53 <I440r> and it was a bitcvh to get them to work too hehe
16:21:03 <I440r> there were 2 problems making them fubar
16:21:06 <I440r> first of all 
16:21:36 <I440r> patching teh cfa to call somewhere other than dovariable or nest forgot to calculate the relative offset
16:21:46 <I440r> they were just storing teh absolute address (wrong!) hehe
16:22:06 <kholmes> :)
16:22:07 <I440r> and dodoes> needed to bear in mind that TOS is in ebx
16:22:18 <I440r> which it blatantly disregarded hehe
16:22:23 <I440r> dodoes
16:22:24 <I440r> i mean
16:22:50 <I440r> so i can no make creating words with seperate compile time and run time actions
16:22:56 <I440r> we actually have a REAL forth now :)
16:23:38 --- topic: set to 'do drop >in  -- Extra Extra - Read all about it - (;code) (;uses) and does> all now work in IsForth - shock horror!' by I440r
16:23:41 * kholmes wouldn't know the difference
16:23:52 <I440r> u know what does> is right ?
16:24:02 <I440r> : constant create , does> @ ;
16:24:02 <kholmes> um...no =)
16:24:12 <I440r> teh word constant first creates a new word
16:24:36 <I440r> it then patches the code field address of that word to interpret everything after teh does>
16:24:39 <I440r> so
16:24:47 <I440r> the create , is the comile time action of constant
16:25:02 <I440r> and teh @ is the run time action of the constants it creates
16:25:16 <I440r> : blah create ....... does> ......... ;
16:25:29 <I440r> any word created with blah shares common code insode the definition of blah
16:25:43 <I440r> ANY word created with a does> word shares common code with its creator
16:25:58 <kholmes> :/
16:25:59 <I440r> does> is the cornerstone of all good forths
16:26:05 <kholmes> code field address?
16:26:11 <I440r> aha :)
16:26:14 <I440r> do u code asm at all ?
16:26:20 <kholmes> nope :)
16:26:34 <I440r> ok then ill try explain anyway hehe
16:26:35 * kholmes is pretty high level.
16:26:47 <I440r> all 4th words have 2 basic parts 
16:26:50 <I440r> a header
16:26:55 <I440r> and teh code they execute
16:27:03 <kholmes> header = word?
16:27:17 <I440r> header is a symbol for the word
16:27:21 <I440r> teh name of the word
16:27:22 <kholmes> okay
16:27:29 <I440r> headers are linked lists
16:27:42 <kholmes> list of headers
16:27:42 <I440r> so each header points to the previous header in the dictionary
16:27:45 <I440r> yes
16:27:55 <I440r> each header also points to teh code for the word it names
16:28:23 <I440r> for a coded definition (written in assembler) this is all there is
16:28:25 <I440r> a header
16:28:29 <I440r> that names the word
16:28:34 <I440r> and points to teh machine code
16:28:40 <kholmes> two pointers
16:28:58 <I440r> for a : definition (colon definition = high level definition) the code field address
16:29:05 <I440r> which is where teh header points
16:29:09 <I440r> is always a call to nest
16:29:17 <I440r> nest pops the return address of this call off teh stack
16:29:24 <I440r> and interprets the data at that address
16:29:40 <I440r> so : definitions have
16:29:42 <I440r> a header
16:29:45 <I440r> a code field
16:29:47 <I440r> and a body
16:29:57 <I440r> the body is always 5 bytes in front of the cfa
16:30:09 <I440r> a variables code field address is a call to dovariable
16:30:29 <I440r> dovariable leaves the return address on teh stack so taht fetch can fetch teh contents of said body 
16:30:37 <I440r> anb store can store data in said body
16:30:45 <I440r> a constant is similar to a variable
16:30:50 <I440r> but its cfa is a call to do constant
16:31:01 <I440r> which fetches teh contents of teh body and leaves it on the stack
16:31:12 <I440r> are u following this ?
16:31:33 <kholmes> ...
16:31:42 <kholmes> I'm rereading some of it
16:33:20 <kholmes> return address of the stack?
16:33:25 <kholmes> what does that mean
16:33:40 <I440r> return address ON teh stack is what i prolly meant
16:33:43 <kholmes> the memory address of the stack??
16:33:54 <kholmes> oh
16:34:24 <I440r> no
16:35:00 <I440r> teh call instruction first pushes teh addres contained within the instruction pointer register onto the stack
16:35:08 <I440r> then it jumps to teh address specified
16:35:26 <I440r> the ret instruction pops that "return address" off the stack, back into IP
16:35:41 <I440r> we use are using call in a non standard way
16:35:49 <I440r> were not realy "calling" a subroutine
16:35:54 <I440r> we are jumping to it
16:36:02 <I440r> but we need to know where we jumped to it from
16:36:34 <kholmes> okay
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16:38:37 <I440r> he :)
16:42:49 * kholmes is away: f00d
17:06:06 * kholmes is back (gone 00:23:17)
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18:51:20 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:51:21 <ree> hey tbw
18:51:25 <ree> howdy
18:51:30 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ree
18:51:42 <I440r> tbw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
18:51:43 <I440r> yo dood
18:51:48 <ree> long time no talk
18:51:50 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r!
18:51:56 <I440r> isforth is starting to actually LOOK like a forht now heh
18:51:58 <TheBlueWizard> yeah ltns :)
18:52:02 <I440r> :)
18:52:25 <I440r> u got a linux box handy ?
18:52:37 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...btw I seem to have lost the op priv...I got a msg "An access of [10] is required for [OP] on #forth
18:52:46 <TheBlueWizard> me?
18:52:50 <I440r> i deregged forth
18:53:00 <I440r> i was " <-- that close to doing rm -rf isforth
18:53:11 <TheBlueWizard> and ChanServ is somehow dragged into #forth!
18:53:36 <TheBlueWizard> afk...be back in 2 min
18:54:42 <ree> /msg chanserv set #channel guard on
18:55:28 <TheBlueWizard> back
18:55:48 <TheBlueWizard> I'm currently on Win95, to file a bug report :P
18:55:53 <ree> hehe
18:56:13 <TheBlueWizard> do any of you use zile?
18:57:01 <TheBlueWizard> that's where I encounter a weird bug
18:57:22 <ree> zile?
18:58:14 <TheBlueWizard> "zile is lossy emacs"..a program found in Debian distro
18:58:33 <TheBlueWizard> small editor with emacs look-n-feel
18:59:13 <TheBlueWizard> I gather none of you use zile...so I will poll the #debian...much bigger audience :)
18:59:24 <ree> oi
18:59:28 <ree> I use vi
18:59:40 * kholmes looks at ree
19:00:30 <TheBlueWizard> if I want to use editor for short time, zile is faster...otherwise I'd go for emacs...but I hate bugs in any shape, form, whatever
19:00:34 <TheBlueWizard> :)
19:00:38 * ree looks at kholmes
19:00:41 <I440r> i use joe heh
19:00:45 <I440r> a lossy editor ? heh
19:00:51 * kholmes glares at I440r
19:01:28 <TheBlueWizard> [shrug] that's what it is called....I guess it's lossy cuz it doesn't carry lots and lots of emacs commands :)
19:01:51 <I440r> hehe
19:02:06 <I440r> well as long as it isnt like lossy compression where u lose 50% of ur edit heh
19:02:32 <I440r> and whats wrong with joe ?
19:03:12 <kholmes> no interpreter :)
19:03:18 <I440r> heh
19:03:21 <TheBlueWizard> I need emacs look-n-feel, plus C syntax highlighting...so...
19:03:25 <I440r> isforth wont have a built in editor
19:03:33 <I440r> its going to use what ever is in teh editor env variable
19:03:33 <TheBlueWizard> yah
19:03:44 <I440r> export EDITOR=/dev/null
19:03:55 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:03:57 <I440r> export EDITOR=/dev/random
19:04:10 <TheBlueWizard> haha
19:04:10 <kholmes> export EDITOR=yes
19:04:24 <ree> hehe
19:04:25 <I440r> random is a better editor
19:04:39 <ree> lossy/lousy
19:04:40 <I440r> leave it for long enough and it will produce the complete woks of shakespear!
19:05:26 <kholmes> only if you have a network of an infinite number of computers
19:05:31 <kholmes> or VB coders
19:05:59 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard
19:06:02 <TheBlueWizard> :)
19:33:27 <TheBlueWizard> just submitted a bug report...yay!
19:33:33 <I440r> hehe
19:34:58 <TheBlueWizard> ok...you ask me whether I have a Linux handy...presumably you want someone to hold a copy of isforth in case you *gasp* rm -rf isforth, eh?
19:35:08 <I440r> no heh
19:35:16 <I440r> was gona show u what we got now :)
19:35:26 <I440r> i have one copy on my server
19:35:31 <I440r> one on this box's c dribve
19:35:36 <TheBlueWizard> ah...but it requires a Linux, right?
19:35:38 <I440r> another on its linux partition
19:35:41 <I440r> one on teh laptop c drive
19:35:53 <I440r> and the working copy on the laptop linux drive heh
19:36:07 <I440r> oh
19:36:12 <I440r> and another copy on a floppy :)
19:36:18 <TheBlueWizard> heh...sounds like you got a dual boot machine (windoze and Linux)
19:36:24 <TheBlueWizard> heh
19:37:05 <I440r> no - this one is dual because my sis sues it
19:37:09 <I440r> teh lappy is dual because 
19:37:09 <I440r> wel
19:37:12 <I440r> its a lappy heh
19:37:17 <I440r> the server is puer linux
19:37:20 <TheBlueWizard> sue a laptop??? ha ha ha!
19:38:50 * TheBlueWizard figures "sues" --> "uses"
19:39:13 <TheBlueWizard> you tried to DCC me a file, but apparently wasn't able to
19:39:32 <I440r> grr damned ipmaq :P
19:39:34 <I440r> brb :)
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19:40:51 * TheBlueWizard welcomes a clone, just to spite idiotic lawmakers ;)
19:41:05 <I440r> law amkers ?
19:41:08 <I440r> thats not me
19:41:10 <I440r> i deny it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:41:17 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:42:19 <I440r__> did u get teh dcc ?
19:42:21 <I440r__> cant have
19:42:23 <I440r__> not that fast
19:42:26 <TheBlueWizard> nope
19:42:30 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:49:13 <TheBlueWizard> got the file
19:49:23 <TheBlueWizard> will xfer it to Linux hehe
19:50:54 <TheBlueWizard> well, I need to go to bed real soon...work tomorrow
19:51:29 <I440r> lucky u
19:51:33 <I440r> get me a job!!! heh
19:52:04 --- quit: I440r__ ("Meep Meep!")
19:52:25 <TheBlueWizard> heh
19:54:35 <TheBlueWizard> if you can be a bit more flexible, you might get a job...then again, I read WashPost recently that the high tech jobseekers are firing off resumes even to recruiters' private email addresses!   Imagine that!  The desperate measures, the glut of resumes, .... thank goodness I am in a secure position! :)
19:57:16 <I440r> hehe
19:57:21 <TheBlueWizard> but my current job has a price...I have to work with M$ products...*shudder*...but the security....yum-yum
19:57:27 <I440r> my recruitor is gona try get me a unix coding job
19:57:30 <I440r> FORTH related!!!
19:57:36 <TheBlueWizard> COOL!
19:57:43 <TheBlueWizard> that combo is a rarity
19:58:02 <TheBlueWizard> do you know of Jet Thomas?
19:58:19 <I440r> nope
19:59:32 <TheBlueWizard> heh...he is a Forth FANATIC....I've met him about 6 years ago...he wouldn't program in anything other than Forth, and he's extremely enthusiastic about Forth...you can see his name once in a while on comp.lang.forth ;)
20:00:57 <I440r> hehe get him into isforth!
20:01:59 <TheBlueWizard> lemme see if I can find his email addy and will email him about that
20:02:35 <TheBlueWizard> I haven't been in touch with him for a long time though...I know he briefly worked at Forth, Inc...and got fired hehe
20:03:52 <I440r> heh
20:05:07 <ree> hehe
20:05:10 <ree> sounds like my friend
20:05:15 <ree> forth nut =)
20:05:34 <ree> he's setting a brand new p4 system or something with colorForth
20:05:47 <I440r> ree :)
20:05:58 <ree> I am just an assembly nut
20:06:20 <I440r> im an asm/forth nut
20:06:35 <I440r> and if u remove "asm/forth" ur not far wrong then either hehe
20:07:48 <ree> ?
20:07:51 <ree> heh
20:07:54 <ree> yeah
20:07:57 <ree> you are a nut :)
20:08:06 <ree> plain nutty
20:08:06 <I440r> :)
20:08:13 <I440r> aha - but i admit it!
20:08:39 --- mode: I440r set mode: -o I440r
20:08:43 <TheBlueWizard> lol....I'm just a...hacker!  I like asm, C, forth, certain exotic ones as well
20:08:56 <I440r> like brainfuck ????
20:08:57 <I440r> hehe
20:09:01 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:09:02 <I440r> bongo likes brainfuck :P
20:09:25 <ree> yeah
20:09:33 <TheBlueWizard> I heard of someone planning to set up a business (in England) based on brainfuck...whoo-hah!
20:10:09 <I440r> hehe
20:10:21 * TheBlueWizard is pragmatic
20:10:28 <I440r> neway im outa here
20:10:30 <I440r> Zzzz
20:10:32 <I440r> nite
20:10:36 <TheBlueWizard> ok :)
20:10:40 <TheBlueWizard> bye
20:10:43 <kholmes> nite
20:10:47 --- quit: I440r ("Reality Strikes Again")
20:11:54 <ree> hehe
20:11:55 <ree> well
20:12:00 <ree> forthers are nutty
20:12:20 <TheBlueWizard> um...true....
20:12:28 <ree> brainfuck isn't much nuttier 
20:12:36 <ree> once you've stepped over to the dark side
20:12:49 <TheBlueWizard> brainfuck is much harder to decipher
20:13:11 <TheBlueWizard> lol (James Earl Jones' sotto voce)
20:13:42 <ree> lheh
20:15:47 <ree> heh
20:15:49 <ree> water was here?
20:15:51 <ree> eww =)
20:17:56 <TheBlueWizard> huh?
20:19:16 <ree> tunes guy
20:20:53 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...dunno who that guy is....
20:21:26 * TheBlueWizard succeeds in locating Jet's email addy
20:22:41 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...what's I440r's email addy?
20:22:55 <ree> dunno
20:23:14 <TheBlueWizard> time to hunt then!
20:23:17 <ree> hehe
20:23:21 * TheBlueWizard is a good hunter
20:23:23 <ree> I know he had a sourceforge site
20:23:32 <ree> well, you might find it in the channel logs
20:26:00 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...
20:26:25 <TheBlueWizard> !
20:26:43 <TheBlueWizard> chanserv said the founder of this channel is....futhin!
20:26:58 <ree> yeah
20:27:03 <ree> i440r dropped the channel
20:27:09 <ree> and almost removed isforth
20:27:13 <ree> he has a quick temper =)
20:27:18 <ree> and one of his buddies, futhin registered it heh
20:30:19 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
20:30:36 <TheBlueWizard> you made him sound like he is a moody bitch ;)
20:30:53 <ree> he is!
20:30:54 <ree> :)
20:31:08 <ree> a cool one though :)
20:31:18 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:31:47 * TheBlueWizard is now looking into Sourceforge...
20:33:10 <ree> isforth.sf.net
20:33:24 <ree> mailto: mark4@purplecoder.com
20:33:32 <ree> but I think he lost purplecoder.com
20:33:35 <ree> or unregistered it heh
20:33:40 <ree> out of fits of anger again :)
20:33:48 <ree> nope
20:33:51 <ree> it is still registered
20:33:57 <ree> i440r@mailcity.com
20:34:05 <ree> that should reach him
20:37:30 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...I tried http://www.purplecoder.com...and noticed it has disappeared, apparently
20:37:36 <ree> yep
20:37:43 <ree> but the whois info gives you the email addy
20:37:55 <TheBlueWizard> and sourceforge doesn't seem to have isforth
20:38:18 <ree> ?
20:38:20 <ree> isforth.sf.net
20:38:27 <TheBlueWizard> he seems to like to be elusive, eh
20:38:36 <ree> heh
20:38:40 <ree> you going to email him?
20:39:07 <TheBlueWizard> planning to, yeah
20:39:17 <ree> you have his two addresses now
20:41:08 <TheBlueWizard> hehe....by the way, isforth.sourceforge.net gives a POST method not allowed message :P
20:41:51 <TheBlueWizard> he really know how to make screwballs... :)
20:42:31 <ree> isForth
20:42:34 <ree> because forth IS!
20:42:38 <ree> haha
20:43:23 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha
20:45:03 <ree> cute
20:58:08 * kholmes doesn't get it
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20:59:29 <TheBlueWizard> hiya aaronl
20:59:50 <TheBlueWizard> well...gotta go...bye all
20:59:54 <kholmes> bye
21:00:03 <ree> later tbw
21:00:07 <ree> hey aaronl
21:00:07 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
21:00:12 <aaronl> reree
21:00:42 <ree> howdy
21:01:05 <kholmes> are there any apps written in forth?
21:03:39 --- join: qless (~qless@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
21:04:15 <ree> any apps?
21:04:18 <ree> hey qless
21:04:24 <qless> heya ree
21:04:56 --- part: aaronl left #forth
21:05:59 <ree> www.ultratechnology.com
21:06:01 <ree> www.forth.org
21:06:03 <ree> www.colorforth.com
21:06:48 <qless> www.forth.com
21:07:13 <ree> .org
21:07:35 <qless> forth inc.
21:09:58 <ree> chuck moore made forth
21:10:05 <ree> his site is www.colorforth.com
21:10:12 <ree> www.colorforth.com/bio.html
21:11:05 <ree> but yeah, forth inc he founded
21:11:28 <qless> leo brodie worked there too
21:37:54 --- quit: qless ("changing dimensions")
21:38:16 <kholmes> anyone still here?
21:38:42 <ree> nope
21:39:10 <kholmes> well
21:39:20 <kholmes> forthers are into minimalization
21:39:32 <kholmes> know of any light graphical browsers?
21:39:41 <kholmes> as in...for the world wide web
21:40:20 <ree> amaya
21:40:23 <ree> 5.0
21:40:40 <ree> you can get it at www.w3c.org
21:40:42 <kholmes> ooh
21:40:47 <kholmes> didn't think of that
21:41:13 <ree> with release 5.0 it is actually quite usable
21:44:19 <kholmes> cool
21:44:24 <kholmes> I've used it before
21:44:28 <kholmes> it was quite slow
21:44:30 <kholmes> how is it now?
21:44:34 <ree> fast
21:44:38 <ree> and more stable
21:44:41 <kholmes> great
21:44:47 <ree> and renders better
21:44:48 <kholmes> stable is double good
21:45:01 <ree> also I love how you can use just the keyboard to browse
21:45:29 <ree> you have to change the modes in amaya
21:45:32 <ree> to web browsing mode
21:45:32 <kholmes> do I need thot?
21:45:44 <ree> instead of the default edit mode
21:45:53 <ree> its in one of the options screens
21:46:02 <ree> then you restart it and it will work just like a regular browser
21:46:07 <kholmes> alright...sure
21:49:21 <ree> I have to setup a complete email server now heh
21:49:27 <ree> ever dealt much with web mail stuff?
21:49:49 <kholmes> nope
21:52:01 <ree> going to have a lot of stuff for my project
21:52:05 <ree> including a mailing list
21:52:41 <kholmes> what project?
21:52:56 <ree> the organization and os project I am starting
21:52:58 <ree> www.dnos.net
21:53:09 <kholmes> another os
21:53:12 * kholmes looks
21:53:46 <ree> ?
21:53:46 <ree> heh
21:53:49 <ree> yeah
21:53:52 <ree> but not really an os
21:54:06 <ree> more a developer system that also operates the hardware
21:54:08 <kholmes> artificially intelligent?
21:54:11 <ree> so it can be faster
21:54:13 <ree> yep
21:54:30 <kholmes> in what fashion will it be intelligent?
21:54:42 <ree> not intelligent really
21:54:49 <ree> self modifying, evolving on its own
21:54:55 <ree> machine learning basically
21:55:00 <ree> low level stuff
21:55:27 <kholmes> hmm
21:55:36 <kholmes> what do you mean by machine learning?
21:55:39 <kholmes> what will it do?
21:57:12 <ree> like being able to parse a document
21:57:20 <ree> and understand it
21:57:37 <ree> able to educate itself without requiring human input
21:58:10 <ree> I will be implementing several fields of ai
21:58:16 <ree> in the system
21:58:22 <ree> though not really artificial life
21:58:24 <kholmes> have you ever coded AI before?
21:59:34 <ree> just studied the areas I will be working in
21:59:43 <ree> self modifying code, virus like behavior
21:59:47 <ree> event based programming
21:59:58 <ree> not really into the theory 
22:06:10 <ree> are you interested in ai?
22:07:11 <kholmes> barely
22:07:23 <kholmes> I don't see a lot happening with it
22:08:00 <kholmes> and I've seen ai os projects before
22:08:22 <kholmes> problem usually is that they don't really know how the OS would be intelligent
22:08:40 <kholmes> which is why I was asking you them questions
22:08:50 <ree> ahh, know of any urls to those ai os projects?
22:08:50 <kholmes> seems you're falling into the same problem
22:08:55 <kholmes> no
22:09:00 <ree> I'm not developing it to be intelligent
22:09:07 <ree> I am using more common philosophy
22:09:31 <ree> comming from a low level systems programmer angle
22:09:46 <ree> I am not getting into the mucky waters of ai theory
22:10:05 <kholmes> can you give me an example?
22:10:27 <ree> well, the system will revolve around an in memory assembler
22:10:48 <ree> using a network stack it will be programmed by sending simple data structures that contain lists of addresses and opcodes
22:11:18 <kholmes> linked lists? or do you mean vectors?
22:11:34 <ree> somewhere in between
22:12:13 <kholmes> err...whats in between?
22:12:23 <ree> a combination of both
22:12:30 <ree> at first it will be simple linked lists
22:12:51 <ree> but it will work into a non-linear multiple dimension system
22:13:15 <ree> I just started on the docs this morning
22:13:29 <kholmes> what you coding it in?
22:13:30 <ree> but right now working on the email server
22:13:34 <ree> assembly
22:19:08 <ree> amazing how many people are pessimistic about ai :)
22:19:52 <kholmes> I suppose I am pessimistic :)
22:20:08 <kholmes> it sounds like a buzzword that has lost its buzz
22:20:22 <ree> well, it just describes a group of studies
22:20:31 <ree> many of which are actually used every day
22:20:44 <ree> from military uses to games and manufacturing 
22:25:30 <kholmes> yeah
22:25:42 <kholmes> but how does it relate to an operating system?
22:25:55 <ree> using the system level access is merely for efficiency
22:26:02 <ree> and capabilities
22:26:25 <kholmes> hmm...Amaya won't build for me
22:26:32 <kholmes> did you have any problems?
22:26:37 <ree> I can have it modify memory without any restrictions or any need to design it around some sort of api
22:26:43 <ree> I used the binary
22:26:55 <kholmes> hmm
22:27:01 <kholmes> perhaps I should try that
22:27:19 <ree> linux version runs great under freebsd linux emu
22:28:25 <kholmes> hmm...do you know the command to delete an entire directory and all subdirectories?
22:28:32 <ree> rm -r 
22:28:42 <ree> rm -rf 
22:28:44 <kholmes> thanks
22:28:45 <ree> for forcing
22:32:22 <ree> so do you have any projects?
22:33:03 <kholmes> yeah
22:33:06 <kholmes> too many
22:33:27 <kholmes> many of them are non-computing, however
22:33:35 <kholmes> school/work
22:33:53 <kholmes> but I want to do a lot of reading
22:34:03 <kholmes> and learning of technologies
22:34:09 <ree> cool
22:34:11 <ree> I do too
22:34:19 <ree> that is why I am starting a science organization
22:34:20 <kholmes> learning what technologies are crap and which are real
22:34:36 <ree> right now building money to have a lab
22:34:43 <kholmes> cool
22:34:47 <kholmes> what sort of science?
22:35:04 <ree> all =)
22:35:27 <ree> but I really like agriculture, construction/architecture
22:35:30 <ree> engineering
22:35:43 <ree> and also physics
22:35:49 <kholmes> kind of broad, dontcha think?
22:35:59 <kholmes> engineering isn't a science
22:36:01 <ree> the broader the better
22:36:06 <kholmes> but cool though
22:36:10 <ree> sure it is
22:36:20 <ree> mechanical/computer engineering
22:36:47 <ree> but really I am just specializing in computer science 
22:36:59 <ree> I want to develop this system to do all the research for me a few years down the road
22:37:11 <ree> so I do not have to fuss with the details rather just the ideas
22:37:48 <ree> since I really do not know enough about the actual sciences
22:37:49 <kholmes> heh
22:37:52 <kholmes> good luck
22:38:15 <ree> all of this will be freely done
22:38:18 <ree> public domain work
22:38:38 <kholmes> yeah
22:38:58 <kholmes> do you know lisp?
22:39:20 <ree> yeah, studied it a little
22:39:23 <ree> I prefer assembly only
22:39:29 <ree> I do not like language semantics 
22:39:35 <kholmes> :o
22:39:37 <ree> or really any programmatic language
22:39:53 <kholmes> what for?
22:40:03 <ree> I think if we are to program a computer we should be able to use natural language or other type of visual/phonetic i/o
22:40:15 <ree> what for?
22:40:47 <kholmes> you can't express procedures in natural language
22:40:53 <kholmes> well...you could but its not a good idea
22:41:36 <ree> you shouldn't have to
22:42:53 <ree> I do not think we are progressing any faster requiring humans to program a system 
22:42:54 <kholmes> have to what?
22:42:58 <ree> constantly reinventing the wheel
22:43:10 <ree> use procedural programming
22:43:40 <kholmes> if you can't program the computer, then the system is limited to what we have now
22:43:56 <kholmes> and we're not progressing at all
22:44:16 <ree> you shouldn't have to program the system at all
22:44:28 <ree> the system should be intelligent enough to converse on what you want/need
22:44:40 <ree> and should construct itself to follow exactly that
22:44:51 <kholmes> of course
22:45:19 <ree> we shouldn't need languages like forth, lisp/scheme/*, c*, vb..
22:45:26 <kholmes> there are somethings that the system can not compute
22:45:37 --- join: XeF4 (~xef4@dsl-XIII-123.kotikaista.weppi.fi) joined #forth
22:45:40 <ree> binary logic can represent anything
22:45:42 <ree> hey xef4
22:45:44 <XeF4> oi
22:46:13 <ree> oi?
22:46:16 <ree> why oi
22:47:26 <XeF4> all greetings being otherwise equal, I chose the one with the fewest characters.
22:48:29 <ree> oi is not a greeting =)
22:48:32 <ree> it is a grunt 
22:48:41 <ree> like crap
22:49:12 <ree> hehe
22:49:17 <ree> how have you been
22:49:19 <ree> been awhile 
22:52:16 <XeF4> I have been quite well, coding some, idling too much
22:52:36 <ree> cool
22:53:32 <ree> anything online?
22:54:38 <XeF4> no :\  Too much hassle to carry everything to/from home by floppies
22:55:00 <ree> hehe
22:55:06 <ree>  no zip drive? :)
22:55:10 <XeF4> no
22:55:30 <ree> I really like my scsi zip drive
22:55:36 <ree> 3.3mb/s completely silent
22:55:44 <ree> er 3.3MB/s
22:56:12 <XeF4> for the price of 2 SCSI zip drives and 2 SCSI adapters and zip media, I could have a network connection to my house..
22:56:45 <ree> for 1 month
22:56:47 <ree> :)
22:56:54 <XeF4> for 3-4
22:57:01 <ree> the media will last forever
22:57:07 <ree> but I do have to say I got a great deal on my stuff
22:57:14 <ree> at a thrift store, box full of stuff
22:57:37 <ree> I got a 2gb parallel and 100mb scsi zip drive
22:57:48 <ree> 4 disks and 1 tape
22:57:53 <ree> all for around 20 dollars
22:57:55 <ree> and a few keyboards
22:59:25 <ree> so you do have any pet projects
22:59:27 <ree> home stuff
23:02:07 <XeF4> audio workshop thingy, voxel engine (for another project) optimizing native-code Forth (to run the former at an acceptable speed, using Bigforth until it is ready)
23:02:22 <ree> ohh
23:02:25 <ree> voxel engine
23:02:33 <ree> none of it is available online?
23:02:47 <XeF4> none of it is very presentable at the moment
23:02:53 <ree> hehe
23:02:58 <ree> fine by me
23:03:28 <kholmes> mind if I ask an offtopic question?
23:03:37 <XeF4> you just did.
23:03:56 <kholmes> well
23:04:08 <ree> hehe
23:04:13 <kholmes> I downloaded the binary distribution of Amaya (source wouldn't compile)
23:04:32 <kholmes> so the binary is in my home directory
23:04:48 <kholmes> it doesn't work when I copy the binary to /usr/bin/
23:05:10 <kholmes> so I try ln -s ./amaya /usr/bin/amaya
23:05:25 <kholmes> then I get an error "Too many levels of symbolic links"
23:05:32 <kholmes> so I don't know what to do
23:05:41 <kholmes> any hints?
23:05:54 <ree> yeah
23:06:00 <XeF4> kho: the link target is relative to /usr/bin there
23:06:03 <ree> the binary is in a directory
23:06:11 <ree> in OS-FILEFORMAT
23:06:13 <ree> lik
23:06:14 <ree> like
23:06:16 <XeF4> so you are linking /usr/bin/amaya to itself
23:06:19 <ree> LINUX-ELF/amaya
23:06:26 <ree> you need to use the direct path to it
23:06:38 <kholmes> oh...okay, duh
23:06:47 <ree> er
23:06:51 <ree> LINUX-ELF/bin/amaya
23:07:29 <ree> the distribution tree is rather strange :)
23:07:43 <kholmes> heh...thanks
23:07:46 <kholmes> it works
23:07:54 <kholmes> now...I think...I can sleep
23:08:13 <ree> like it so far?
23:08:32 <kholmes> alright so far
23:08:38 <ree> you change it from edit mode?
23:08:42 <kholmes> its still rather big though
23:08:51 <kholmes> with the icon in the tool bar?
23:09:00 --- join: ajkroll][ (oldfart@ny-lackawanna1a-139.buf.adelphia.net) joined #forth
23:09:02 <kholmes> (and its default size is bigger than my screen)
23:09:24 <kholmes> and I can't compile the source to change it :/
23:10:18 --- quit: kholmes ("sleepzzzz")
23:10:25 <ajkroll][> anyone here using FORTH on platforms with limited memory?
23:11:24 <ajkroll][> I'm asking because I have a sort-of virtual memory that I've implemented in C, and I'd simply love to have it work under FORTH too
23:11:42 <ree> you can change all of that
23:11:44 <ree> I hate the icon though
23:11:50 <ree> oopd
23:11:51 <ree> oops
23:12:10 <ree> hey ajkroll][
23:12:15 <ree> been awhile since you joined
23:12:20 <ajkroll][> re --> :-)
23:13:05 <ree> hehe
23:13:07 <ajkroll][> so anyone interested in seeing my implementation of virtual ram?
23:13:20 <ree> virtual memory implementation?
23:13:23 --- quit: XeF4 ("Leaving")
23:13:27 <ajkroll][> I know it's in C, but on small platforms like cp/m it's of tremendous use
23:13:33 <ree> hehe
23:13:34 <ajkroll][> yea
23:13:53 <ajkroll][> I can malloc megs under cp/m now for arrays and the like
23:13:54 <ree> sure I guess
23:14:01 <ree> I really have mostly forgotten C
23:14:32 <ajkroll][> well, deal is, I'm curious on how I would implement it under forth, like as in, what, if any uses it would have
23:14:48 <ree> heh, well sorry
23:14:51 <ree> I have no forth experience
23:14:56 <ree> I just do assembly stuff
23:15:04 <ajkroll][> the main problem I see is forth really lacks any sort of normal disk I/O
23:15:21 <ree> I don't see that as a problem
23:15:24 <ree> block i/o is perfect
23:15:24 <ajkroll][> atleast in the older implementations
23:15:38 <ree> 100% performance :)
23:15:42 <ajkroll][> not really
23:16:00 <ree> ?
23:16:12 <ree> block access is almost the lowest level
23:16:19 <ajkroll][> infact block i/o would increase the slack of data non-use
23:16:29 <ree> you build on top of it
23:16:37 <ajkroll][> that's true I suppose
23:16:57 <ajkroll][> but wouldn't implementing something like an lseek() be a real pain?
23:16:58 <ree> its perfect for VM access
23:17:10 <ree> since you can get chunks real quick
23:17:24 <ajkroll][> doesn't want or need chunks of a file actually
23:17:38 <ajkroll][> infact it's dependent on the os to buffer any blocks
23:17:41 <ree> no files :)
23:17:47 <ree> ahh, well
23:17:55 <ajkroll][> and it needs files
23:18:04 <ree> when using forth on an os and it only supports block allocation
23:18:10 <ree> then it is sort of mundane
23:18:15 <ree> but if using forth as an os
23:18:19 <ree> it is good
23:18:28 <ajkroll][> absolutly, I agree
23:18:31 <ree> though you can use forth and a raw partition in unix
23:18:43 <ree> what os do you program on
23:18:58 <ajkroll][> most micro forth's either use real disk sectors or load the screens off of files
23:18:59 <ree> heh, I am setting up another email server
23:19:01 <ree> takes forever
23:19:06 <ajkroll][> lets see
23:19:11 <ajkroll][> I program on....
23:19:40 <ajkroll][> Linux, DOS, CP/M, MP/M, OS/M, and all the oddball 8-bit os'es
23:19:56 <ajkroll][> including some you probably have never heard of
23:20:57 <ajkroll][> basically my problem stems from my robotics project, which uses forth on an 8bit machine as the master brain
23:21:10 <ajkroll][> and I've simply run out of ram
23:21:25 <ree> OS/M ?
23:21:31 <ree> haven't heard of that one
23:21:31 <ajkroll][> a larger computer means more draw on the battery
23:21:46 <ree> cool, so you do embedded/robotics work
23:22:01 <ajkroll][> OS/M is a combination of CP/M and MP/M with a few more enhancements in the BDOS
23:22:24 <ajkroll][> it's _almost_ CP/M3
23:22:35 <ajkroll][> but has no banking, etc
23:22:48 <ajkroll][> yes I do lots of embedded
23:23:00 <ajkroll][> I also do lots of cpu mixing
23:23:41 <ajkroll][> http://dr.ea.ms/hardware.html and take a peek at the last item on that page
23:24:14 <ajkroll][> notice there is absolutly no rom on it
23:24:48 <ree> hehe, interesting custom job =)
23:24:57 <ree> what type of equipment do you have for that?
23:25:05 <ajkroll][> 80+ft of 30ga point to point on there
23:25:20 <ree> how long did that take
23:25:47 <ajkroll][> well, right now I've been using it to emulate hard disks and floppy disks for some of my old 8-bit machines, giving them access to my linux box's .5tb of storage
23:25:51 <ree> yeah, I've been hereb efore
23:25:56 <ajkroll][> it took a week to build
23:26:09 <ree> hmm
23:26:14 <ree> I just have .1tb 
23:26:28 <ree> damn you =)
23:26:32 <ajkroll][> I finished the schematics (having done it from my head, no schematic to begin with) over the course of 3 years on and off
23:26:45 <ree> nice
23:26:50 <ajkroll][> so finally a schematic does indeed exist
23:26:53 <ree> I do operating system development/research
23:27:10 <ree> starting my organization
23:27:15 * ajkroll][ nods
23:27:43 <ajkroll][> Total: 503186040 Kilobytes, 503186.04 Megabytes, 503.18 Gigabytes
23:27:49 <ajkroll][> :-)
23:27:54 <ree> hehe, yeah
23:28:23 <ree> 30, 30, 24.7, 6, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1
23:28:29 <ajkroll][> http://dr.ea.ms/~oldfart/case to see what it looks like at present... it's not done, and I need to get rid of this buggy 440bx motherboard
23:28:47 <ajkroll][> all drives are hotswap too
23:28:53 <ajkroll][> all IDE
23:28:55 <ajkroll][> :-)
23:28:59 <ree> ahh
23:29:03 <ree> the 24.7 = 6 scsi 
23:29:11 <ree> and a few of the smaller drivers are scsi
23:29:17 <ree> the two 30 are ide =(
23:29:19 <ajkroll][>  11:      94985      94700   IO-APIC-level  ide4, ide5
23:29:23 <ajkroll][>  14:     182948     182873   IO-APIC-level  ide2, ide3
23:29:23 <ajkroll][>  15:     163782     162757   IO-APIC-level  ide0, ide1, ide6, ide7
23:29:29 <ajkroll][> udma66
23:29:36 <ree> but I'd love access to your hardware
23:29:40 <ajkroll][> so no cpou load like traditional ide
23:29:49 <ree> where do you come up with the donations/support?
23:29:58 <ree> heh, ata66?
23:30:01 <ajkroll][> mostly my own pocket
23:30:15 <ree> those run at like 1/4 their rated speed
23:30:25 <ajkroll][> very few people have donated anything worth anything
23:30:51 <ree> ohh
23:30:52 <ajkroll][> the reason my system is crap tho is this crummy 440BX and it's race conditions
23:30:56 <ree> what do you hope to accomplish
23:31:02 <ajkroll][> well
23:31:11 <ajkroll][> the idea is centralized sotrage
23:31:33 <ajkroll][> before I moved here, this system fed 11 other headless rootNFS boxes
23:31:42 <ajkroll][> it only feeds 2 right now
23:31:55 <ree> I mean with all your work
23:31:58 <ajkroll][> ready to laff?
23:32:02 <ree> hehe
23:32:03 <ajkroll][> free          up  4+02:13,     1 user,   load 1.00, 1.01, 1.00
23:32:03 <ajkroll][> my            up     7:50,     3 users,  load 1.98, 1.96, 1.98
23:32:03 <ajkroll][> nadz          up 13+00:24,     1 user,   load 1.07, 1.02, 1.00
23:32:11 <ree> hah
23:32:20 <ree> not that high of load either :)
23:32:27 <ajkroll][> my works are mostly for fun and self education
23:32:30 <ree> I can't imagine the amount of heat in that room
23:32:37 <ree> really?
23:32:56 <ajkroll][> the heat in the old room got so bad I bought and ran an air conditioner year 'round, even in winter
23:33:28 <ajkroll][> right now I have only 8 pc's that I could turn on all at once
23:33:42 <ajkroll][> that includes the old legacy 8bit boxes
23:33:48 <ree> hmm
23:33:59 <ajkroll][> this room is like one huge desk
23:34:03 <ree> right now I am not running any of my systems
23:34:05 <ajkroll][> I have desk on 3 walls
23:34:09 <ree> not really setup to do my research
23:34:18 <ree> well, of course, except for 2 systems heh
23:34:25 <ajkroll][> I have 5 of these on, but only one monitor
23:34:31 <ree> yeah
23:34:43 <ree> I want to do trihead
23:34:47 <ree> I have 3 17"
23:34:49 <ajkroll][> I usually have no more than 3 monitors on at once
23:34:55 <ree> but only using 1 17" right now 
23:35:12 <ajkroll][> I have many sizes
23:35:16 <ajkroll][> from 4" to 21"
23:35:21 <ajkroll][> :-)
23:36:35 <ree> cool
23:36:59 <ree> well, my organization site www.dist.org
23:37:08 <ree> I hope to have some interesting original work up in the next month or two
23:37:15 <ree> at least documentation
23:37:27 <ajkroll][> I hope maxtor updates the RMA status, looks like I'm going to be shipping them 2 more drives that have grown to be bad
23:37:27 <ajkroll][> :-(
23:37:27 <ajkroll][> they did run great tho for over 2 years
23:37:29 <ajkroll][> just these last 3 months they have been acting funny
23:37:31 <ajkroll][> and I think it happened when I didn't fan all the drives
23:37:40 <ajkroll][> the drive braces got so hot I couldn't touch them
23:37:47 <ajkroll][> but hey, that's not my problem, it's thiers
23:38:05 <ree> heh, my 6gb died
23:38:08 <ree> right in the middle of a backup 
23:38:24 <ree> I am only going to buy seagate 
23:38:29 <ree> or ibm caviar
23:40:08 <ajkroll][> and a disk shouldn't lock up the entire system
23:40:08 <ajkroll][> altho the promise cards are to blame for that, mostly
23:40:26 <ree> hehe
23:40:39 <ajkroll][> just would be more plesent if $2200 worth of hard disks worked better n' all
23:40:58 <ree> amazing what money can buy now
23:41:04 <ree> I want to get an ia64
23:41:06 <ajkroll][> wd's are the worse drives on the market
23:41:08 <ree> but they are expensive right now
23:41:18 <ree> I meant
23:41:21 <ree> western digital caviar
23:41:27 <ree> and my old 1gb is not bad at all
23:41:35 <ajkroll][> yea, and thier one of the worse ones these days
23:41:39 <ree> its been my most dependable drive ever
23:41:44 <ree> these days yeah =)
23:41:46 <ree> perhaps
23:41:53 <ajkroll][> udma crc isn't implemented at all, the crc is faked
23:42:05 <ree> but I have a 1gb drive from like 1994
23:42:10 <ajkroll][> that means corrupted data on wd's
23:42:10 <ree> I've used the crap out of it
23:42:20 <ree> not a single problem with it
23:42:21 <ajkroll][> oh sure, but it's not fast
23:42:28 <ree> true
23:42:32 <ree> neither is any ata* hehe
23:42:37 <ajkroll][> mine are
23:42:45 <ree> I have ata100 drives
23:42:53 <ajkroll][> if I were to stripe these... could you imagine?
23:42:59 <ree> I've seen what happens to ata drives under heavy cpu usage
23:43:09 <ajkroll][> what happens?
23:43:17 <ree> 15MB/s
23:43:23 <ree> it is sad 
23:43:27 <ajkroll][> what card?
23:43:36 <ree> that was in a multimedia system
23:43:42 <ree> doing desktop video editing
23:43:49 <ree> they had two ata66 drives
23:43:57 <ree> not sure
23:44:03 <ajkroll][> this is my slowest disk, ata33
23:44:04 <ree> but this system cost them quite a bit 
23:44:06 <ajkroll][>  Timing buffered disk reads:  64 MB in  3.69 seconds = 17.34 MB/sec
23:44:19 <ree> buffered of course
23:44:37 <ajkroll][>  Timing buffer-cache reads:   128 MB in  1.16 seconds =110.34 MB/sec
23:44:42 <ree> I don't think you should factor in the cache
23:44:49 <ajkroll][> it isn't
23:44:58 <ajkroll][> :-)
23:45:04 <ree> your load is at 2? :)
23:45:13 <ree> and it does 17mb/s :)
23:45:25 <ree> but ide is a good deal
23:45:29 <ajkroll][> my load is at 2 because I am using the 2 cpu's on something else, and it's not disk intensive
23:45:30 <ree> too bad scsi didn't take off as well
23:45:42 --- join: koft (~koft@207-172-174-180.c4-0.hlb-ubr1a.hlb-ubr.nj.cable.rcn.com) joined #forth
23:45:48 <ree> hey koft
23:45:55 <koft> hello there
23:45:58 <ajkroll][> scsi will die with serial ata, and that's that
23:46:10 <ree> nah
23:46:17 <ajkroll][> serial ata is a single fibreoptic line to the drive
23:46:25 <ajkroll][> scsi can't touch it
23:46:28 <ree> but that is fine, I want to go to fibre/solid state memory
23:46:35 <ajkroll][> I've seen the benchmarks
23:46:48 <ree> once I have 50 grand to spare
23:46:50 <ree> hehe
23:47:03 <ajkroll][> nope. serialata is going to be consumer available
23:47:08 <ree> 3gb/second, 200MB/s per connection
23:47:13 <ajkroll][> same cost as the regualr ata
23:47:17 <ree> I meant solid state memory
23:47:22 <ajkroll][> oh that
23:47:30 <ree> I'm going to skip whatever else is next
23:47:53 <ree> I was wanting to develop a solid state memory hdd
23:48:02 <ree> hdd/drive
23:48:03 <ajkroll][> I still say they are fools to use magnetics anymore 
23:48:39 <ajkroll][> there is development of multilayer phosperecent CD that is rewritable and stores hundreds of gigs
23:48:42 <koft> i'm sure they will find a way to make thoes memory drives last about as long as a hraddrive :P
23:48:50 <ajkroll][> imagine a 50 layer cd
23:49:08 <ajkroll][> with say, 30gigs per layer
23:49:27 <ajkroll][> the aparent first target market is movie theaters
23:49:41 <ajkroll][> where the whole thing, including the screen will be digital
23:49:59 <ajkroll][> and new movies will download via satalite to the theater
23:50:03 <ree> yeah
23:50:05 <ree> I read about that
23:50:20 <ree> both the satellite and cd
23:50:23 <ajkroll][> the problem I see is the huge lcd screen they'll use
23:50:31 <ree> but I like solid state more
23:50:45 <ree> and I do not like movie theatres :)
23:50:47 <ajkroll][> I can just imagine it...
23:50:53 <ajkroll][> going to see a movie
23:50:58 <ajkroll][> and one pixel is dead
23:51:08 <ajkroll][> and my eyes will fixate on the dead pixel
23:51:11 <koft> i'd like to have a display integrated with my optic nerve
23:51:26 <ajkroll][> koft: there getting there
23:51:46 <ajkroll][> koft: they already have implants that allow mouse control via thought
23:51:53 <koft> i want that
23:52:37 <ree> hehe
23:52:42 <ajkroll][> what i'd want is direct input
23:52:46 <ree> that is a far cry from optic nerve implants :)
23:52:50 <ajkroll][> i.e. direct thought to text
23:52:59 <ree> yeah
23:53:09 <ree> imagine how many gigs we could fill in a matter of seconds
23:53:13 <ajkroll][> ree: it's a far cry, but a start
23:53:38 <ree> a single rock is a start to the great wall :)
23:53:47 <ajkroll][> exactly
23:53:57 <ree> but yeah
23:54:05 <ajkroll][> and a single cannon ball in the right place knocks that wall down
23:54:10 <ree> that is what I hope to obtain with my organization
23:54:15 <ree> a fast development phase
23:54:26 <ajkroll][> how old are you?
23:54:30 <ree> 21
23:54:38 <ree> just turned 21 monday
23:54:46 <ajkroll][> what do you need to implement this?
23:54:55 <ajkroll][> hardware?
23:55:18 <ree> actually right now I just need time
23:55:22 * ajkroll][ nods
23:55:29 <ree> and one other major thing
23:55:35 <ajkroll][> money
23:55:36 <ajkroll][> :-)
23:55:42 <ree> someone who is very intelligent about interface design
23:55:47 <ree> heh, money is almost taken care of
23:55:52 <ajkroll][> interface how?
23:55:58 <ree> user interface
23:56:03 <ajkroll][> UI, heh
23:56:06 <ree> for the system I'll be developing
23:56:11 <ree> yeah, just a beginning one
23:56:31 <ajkroll][> what 'system'? an os or????
23:56:38 <ree> www.dnos.net
23:56:42 <ree> network ai os
23:57:15 <ajkroll][> kinda empty page, isn't it?
23:57:38 <ree> yep
23:57:39 <ree> very empty
23:57:45 <ree> I just started on it last night
23:57:54 <ajkroll][> heh
23:58:00 <ree> the organization site is www.dist.org
23:58:09 <ree> it links to all the other projects 
23:58:17 <ree> I want to start a developer network
23:58:31 <ajkroll][> that page too, is rather blank
23:58:43 <ajkroll][> :-)
23:59:08 <ajkroll][> I don't see any text at all
23:59:08 <koft> interesting...
23:59:15 <ree> started all of them 2 days ago =)
23:59:27 <ajkroll][> yet I see text in the html source
23:59:34 <ree> but I've been planning this for the past ~decade
23:59:45 <ree> aj?
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/02.01.29