00:02:35 --- log: started forth/01.12.31 00:02:35 --- quit: clog (Leaving) 00:02:35 --- log: stopped forth/01.12.31 00:02:50 --- log: started forth/01.12.31 00:02:50 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 00:02:50 --- topic: 'forth is clean - c is for men! || : FC RECURSIVE DUP 1 > IF DUP 1 - FC * ELSE DROP 1 THEN ; 42 FC . || badly written forth is just as unreadable as well written c' 00:02:50 --- topic: set by oxygene on [Sun Dec 30 18:06:05 2001] 00:02:50 --- names: list (clog @Xuz @Speuler @oxygene @aaronl) 01:42:30 --- join: Speuler2m (~l@c38038.upc-c.chello.nl) joined #forth 01:45:40 Hiya 01:46:49 hi 01:49:42 i c u r into lisp 02:01:37 --- quit: Xuz (carter.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 02:01:59 --- join: Xuz (aemerson@bgp01079860bgs.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:01:59 --- mode: carter.openprojects.net set mode: +o Xuz 02:02:03 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o Xuz 02:09:50 --- quit: Speuler2m ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 02:12:15 --- mode: Speuler set mode: +o Xuz 03:19:47 * aaronl is away: really sleep, i hope 04:26:51 --- join: Stepan (~sr@dialin-145-254-228-033.arcor-ip.net) joined #forth 04:27:38 Hi :-) 04:51:39 hi 05:06:10 --- quit: Stepan ("[x]chat") 05:15:21 --- kick: clog was kicked by Speuler (Speuler) 05:15:21 --- log: stopped forth/01.12.31 05:15:21 --- log: started forth/01.12.31 05:15:21 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 05:15:21 --- topic: 'forth is clean - c is for men! || : FC RECURSIVE DUP 1 > IF DUP 1 - FC * ELSE DROP 1 THEN ; 42 FC . || badly written forth is just as unreadable as well written c' 05:15:21 --- topic: set by oxygene on [Sun Dec 30 18:06:05 2001] 05:15:21 --- names: list (clog @Xuz @Speuler @oxygene @aaronl) 05:15:38 --- mode: Speuler set mode: +b *!*nef*@*.bespin.org 05:15:52 --- kick: clog was kicked by Speuler (Speuler) 05:15:52 --- log: stopped forth/01.12.31 05:15:52 --- log: started forth/01.12.31 05:15:52 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 05:15:52 --- topic: 'forth is clean - c is for men! || : FC RECURSIVE DUP 1 > IF DUP 1 - FC * ELSE DROP 1 THEN ; 42 FC . || badly written forth is just as unreadable as well written c' 05:15:52 --- topic: set by oxygene on [Sun Dec 30 18:06:05 2001] 05:15:52 --- names: list (clog @Xuz @Speuler @oxygene @aaronl) 05:16:14 --- mode: Speuler set mode: -b *!*nef*@*.bespin.org 05:35:27 you don't like clog? 06:33:49 --- join: hcf (~nef@207-172-225-125.s125.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com) joined #forth 06:33:59 Speuler: u here? 06:44:28 --- part: hcf left #forth 07:05:14 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 07:05:16 hi dudes 07:05:30 * Stepan flashed his cellphone to support java 8) 07:21:34 --- join: hcf (~nef@207-172-225-125.s125.tnt1.pld.me.dialup.rcn.com) joined #forth 07:21:45 Speuler: yeah, why did u kick clog? 07:22:16 to test its rejoin 07:22:21 oh ok 07:23:35 --- part: hcf left #forth 07:46:40 --- quit: Stepan (Remote closed the connection) 08:59:41 --- join: Stepan (~stepan@Charybdis.suse.de) joined #forth 08:59:45 re 09:00:16 --- quit: Speuler ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.1") 09:01:06 --- quit: Xuz ("ircII EPIC4-0.9.16 -- Are we there yet?") 09:07:15 --- join: edrx (edrx@copacabana-ttyS25.inx.com.br) joined #forth 09:41:24 --- quit: Stepan ("Client Exiting") 10:55:56 --- join: ult (rfsg@dialup-67.25.33.116.Dial1.Nashville1.Level3.net) joined #forth 11:10:05 --- part: ult left #forth 12:44:20 --- join: mark4 (mark4@1Cust41.tnt2.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 12:45:32 ok i just looked at the definition for FC there heh 12:46:15 it will count down to till it gets below 1 and then the else part will run 42 times so you will end up with 42 1's on the stack heh 12:47:15 what? and the "*"? I haven't tested it or looked at it very carefully, but I had the impression that it ends up with 42 factorial, trimmed to word size 12:47:39 oh i didnt see the * 12:47:47 anyway, sorry if I've said something dumb 12:47:50 ugh 12:47:52 you didnt hehe 12:47:57 i missed the fc * heh 12:51:34 ok - if its greater than 1 it duplicates it and subtracts 1 from the duped value and then calls fc so for this part of the loop you will get..... 12:52:11 hehe :) 12:52:17 43 42 41 40........ 1 on th estack. then you will return from fc 42 times executing * each time 12:52:40 so you will end up with 43 * 42 * 41 * 40 * 38 * 38 * 37.... 12:52:40 hmmmm 12:52:52 now what do they call that again ??? 12:52:52 heh 12:53:05 factorial ? 12:54:17 : fc2 dup 0 do dup dup -1 * loop nip ; 12:54:27 wouldnt that work too ? 12:54:27 and alot faster i think 12:54:41 erm no 12:55:09 erm it wouldnt work - i gotta think about this heh 12:55:28 mark4: you can do that non-recursive, yes 12:56:12 yea but the exercise is to find a neat way of doing it 12:56:33 ive always found that for any given recursive algorithm there is a better itterative algorithm 12:57:07 of course 12:57:44 erm... no, not every recursive algorithm I think 13:00:30 every 13:00:32 for instance 13:00:35 what happens if i do 13:00:40 40000 fc 13:00:49 i end up with 40 thousand items on my parameter stack 13:00:50 PLUS 13:00:56 40 thousand items on my return stack 13:01:07 an itterative method would not have that problem 13:01:28 the only way to prevent that in the above definition is to do 13:01:50 : fc 50 > if drop 50 then ........ ; 13:01:59 which gets executed on EVERY recursion 13:02:10 thus slowing your recursive function down even more just to make it safe 13:02:38 ANY recursive function will have to make damned sure that its paramters are within resonable bounds 13:03:15 imagine a quick sort trying to do a sort of 20 million data items 13:03:19 kerbanga 13:03:37 a shell sort wouldnt blow up 13:03:48 and shell and quick are very similar 13:03:55 mark4: I guess there are simply recursive functions that can't be made iterative in a reasonable way 13:03:59 dunno for sure 13:04:14 :) 13:04:26 i will always argue that recursion is an abomination 13:04:33 it offends me :) 13:04:45 much the way OOP does :) heh 13:04:46 :) 13:05:16 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 13:05:45 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o edrx 13:05:49 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o clog 13:05:52 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r 13:06:46 I440r: I like oop - everything has its tool - a system like fresco couldn't be developed that fast/linear in forth I guess... 13:07:20 have to go 13:07:21 dunno what fresco is so i cant realy comment 13:07:28 happy new year to you all 13:07:35 edrx: happy new year 13:07:36 you too dood! 13:07:40 I440r: X11 successor 13:07:42 see ya... 13:07:45 --- part: edrx left #forth 13:07:51 ya ? 13:07:57 x11 is being replaced ? 13:08:28 I440r: it has been developed by X/Open and several companies - until the X-group disappeared for some reasons 13:08:59 I440r: after that berlin-consortium took over the pieces of fresco and is now in the process of renaming to fresco again 13:10:12 It heavily uses stuff like CORBA and OOP 13:13:12 i dunno what cobra is either heh 13:13:39 so the x consortium is awol ? 13:13:48 who officially develops open x ? 13:14:03 afaik there's a new group - but that group dropped fresco 13:14:37 do you know COM, DCOP, DCOM or any other distributed object model? CORBA is something like that 13:19:40 i know of 13:19:50 but i avoid windows programming and the like 13:20:02 tho i would like my isforth to have xlib extentios :) 13:20:12 there are certain things about oop that are good 13:20:21 but OOP in general is an over complication 13:23:42 it can give you a clean view of what is happening - and that is what is used in fresco 13:23:53 I wished there were some forth-bindings for CORBA... 13:23:57 Obligatory warning for those with families: like Linux kernel hacking, Forth 13:23:57 hacking on small computers that can barely support a hex keypad, let alone 13:23:57 an OS, is *highly addictive*! 13:23:57 : TARGET FOOT FIND ; 13:23:57 : LOAD BULLET FIND CHAMBER INSERT ; 13:23:57 : SHOOT LOAD TARGET GUN AIM TRIGGER PULL ; 13:24:00 *rotfl* 13:25:31 --- join: Xuz (aemerson@bgp01079860bgs.wanarb01.mi.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:25:48 coi ro do 13:27:13 xuz! hi :) 13:27:29 you in michigan ? 13:28:18 Yep, I'm in the SRM :) 13:28:32 were neighbours :) 13:28:35 im in indiana :) 13:28:46 and - oxy... im wearing a 1911 45 acp right now hhe 13:28:51 i could use that program :) 13:28:59 Ahh, my Nephew lives there. 13:29:31 michigan recognises my ccw too 13:29:34 i like michigan :P 13:30:09 * Xuz laughs, "I've always been fond of it." 13:30:36 v4l2: open /dev/video0: No data available 13:30:37 ugh 13:31:35 * Xuz definitely needs to get his Linux machine up and running. 13:31:45 what distro of linux ? 13:31:49 and why isnt it running ? 13:32:51 Debian GNU/Linux 13:32:57 And. . . someone dropped it when I was moving. 13:33:22 ouch! 13:33:28 well at least you run the right distro 13:33:33 So right now I'm using my other machine. 13:33:34 is the drive fraggd ? 13:33:39 or what 13:33:42 I think it's just the motherboard and power supply. 13:33:44 And/or 13:33:57 And. . . . I think there are two right distros :) 13:34:15 debian woody 13:34:19 and debian potato :P 13:34:20 hehe 13:34:39 * Xuz grumbles, "Dang it, I've been spending too much time in #lojban. When you asked me that my first thought was 'mi pilno la debian.gnu.linuks' 13:34:57 Nah, Debian and Slackware. 13:36:20 never liked slack myself 13:36:27 suse would be a suitable substitute 13:36:27 but 13:36:32 they use crappy rpm's 13:36:40 rpm never handles dependancies very well 13:36:51 Well, the thing I like about slackware is that you install it. . . 13:37:01 And then in a week or two it turns into Xuzix or I440rix. 13:37:26 I just think of it as giving you enough compilers and stuff to make your own system without having to REALLY go from scratch. 13:38:01 i think linus uses debian - or at least uses it as a base for his own distro 13:38:09 ive seen him speak very highly of debian 13:38:38 I thought I read he uses RedHat. 13:39:46 * Xuz is, at the moment, on OpenBSD> 13:49:20 ugh bsd heh 13:49:22 i hate bsd 13:49:43 Why's that? 13:53:16 well i installed freebsd once 13:53:20 just to chec it out 13:53:32 Yesss? 13:53:36 and i couldnt get bassh to work 13:53:41 no matter what i did 13:53:46 my login was NOT bash 13:53:48 i could run bash 13:54:01 i would change /etc/passwd and it would have NO affect 13:54:06 thats fucked up 13:54:10 so i abandoned it 13:54:17 it doesnt use /etc/passwd 13:54:28 Did you look in /etc/shells? 13:54:33 it uses that to generate some binary data base that is NOT human editable 13:54:43 bash was an option there 13:54:53 It uses /etc/master.passwd 13:55:05 You're supposed to use either chsh OR vipw 13:55:30 ya 13:55:36 they FORCE you to do it that way 13:55:45 which is totally BOGUS 13:55:46 anal even 13:55:59 if i want to hand edit /etc/passwd its quite valid for me to do so 13:56:08 i dont even need to run adduser or useradd etc 13:56:12 i can do it all by hand here 13:56:30 You can use vipw to edit it. 13:56:34 Just like with vi. 13:56:37 Except it handles synchrony. 13:56:43 And it has agood reason for it :) 13:56:58 ugh - vi and all its relatives are ultra evil 13:57:10 escape colong shift alt insert backspace f1 13:57:12 now ur in mode x 13:57:21 That's emax :) 13:57:24 VI never uses alt. 13:57:33 control f backspace backspace home cursor down enter 13:57:38 now ur in another mode 13:57:38 You can do export EDITOR=whatever and you'll use whatever. 13:57:50 any operation in ANY editor should take a MAX of TWO keypresses 13:57:52 alt some key 13:57:54 shift some key 13:58:10 i have export EDITOR=joe 13:58:15 * Xuz grins 13:58:21 joe is a close approximation for a useable editor 13:58:24 Remind me to give you the source for FI when I get my other computer back up. 13:59:05 whats FI ? heh 13:59:18 i wish i could have Multiedit in linux shell 13:59:25 and codewrite in x 14:00:07 i emailed the ppl who do codewrite and asked if they were going to do a linux version 14:00:10 they said "maybe" 14:00:10 heh 14:00:55 What's FI? Think. . . . 14:01:06 like vi but different ? 14:01:07 heh 14:01:10 The best features of VI and Emacs put together, except the whole thing's done in Forth instead of Lisp. 14:01:15 ugh 14:01:22 I like it. 14:01:26 vi is HORRIBLE and the only possible WORSE thing is emacs 14:01:33 emacs is a great operating system 14:01:37 but it lacks a decent editor 14:01:46 Well, EMACS has a VI emulation mode :) 14:01:52 as you see - im very opinionated heh 14:01:56 * Xuz likes the keystroke commands of VI. 14:01:57 i know 14:02:07 its the keystroke commands that i HATE most about vi 14:02:16 * Xuz likes being able to script, however. And Emacs is big and heavy. So he fixed it. 14:02:17 like i said if it takes more that TWO keys its fucked up 14:02:24 i love multi edit 14:02:27 not version 7+ 14:02:33 i use version 3.01 14:02:40 which dates back to about 1985 14:02:47 another good dos editor is qedit 14:03:02 Never tried either one of those. 14:03:26 multi edit is about the most configurable editor i have ever seen 14:03:39 Moreso than Emacs? :) 14:03:44 the whole editor is basically a macro compiler and every function in the editor is coded out of macros 14:03:52 hell yes - more so than emacs 14:04:15 you can assign ANY macro to ANY key - you can code just about anything you want in the editors macro language 14:04:18 Oh? Now I'm curious. What can it do that Emacs can't? As much as I hate Emacs, I do have to give it that. 14:04:31 its an editor 14:04:42 why do you need a gazillion bells and whistles ? 14:05:09 I don't. I read mail with a mail client. I'm just wondering what things multiedit lets you change that Emacs doesn't. 14:05:31 I just want to be able to script somewhat complex manipulations of my documents. 14:05:51 multii edit can do that 14:06:03 i do very complex edits with ME 14:06:20 in dos 14:06:24 * Xuz grins, "And of course, I like the VI keystroke commands. I can do things very quickly with those. I even have my command-line configured to use them." 14:07:28 ugh 14:07:30 ur sic 14:07:33 you need help :P 14:07:41 but if you code forth you gota be ok :) 14:07:45 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o Xuz 14:08:24 * Xuz laughs 14:08:28 I AM sick. 14:08:43 I like Forth and Scheme and APL and even Perl, though I try to discourage other people from learning it. 14:09:12 heh 14:14:51 i encourage people to learn forth 14:15:16 Oh, I encourage people to learn Forth, just not Perl. 14:18:45 heh 15:17:42 --- quit: Xuz ("ircII EPIC4-0.9.16 -- Are we there yet?") 17:13:36 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-205.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 17:13:41 hiya all 17:13:51 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 17:13:58 tbw :) 17:14:10 hiya I440r...and have a happy new year! 17:14:45 :) 17:15:30 a well written C code can be readable, actually....but problem is that there aren't many good coders out there, no matter what language the code is written in :) 17:16:30 THAT is the problem 17:16:32 actually 17:16:50 its because C is so easy to learn that there are so many C coders out there 17:17:07 and if you have a higher % of coders on a language you will end up with a higher % of BAD coders 17:17:18 so you will end up with a great deal MORE bad example code 17:17:20 so 17:17:28 its a vicious circle 17:17:41 new coders lern from bad examples and thus become bad coders 17:18:41 yeah...so true, so true. Compound that with a lack of *real* CS education, this results in a big mess the IT/ISV industry is in! 17:20:20 ! 17:23:30 I have a book "Thinking in Forth"...pretty good (tho' in the light of today's programming practice, it is a bit dated) 17:26:22 hehe 17:27:00 leo brodie talks aout about OOP in there 17:27:08 but his web site now retracts wht he said there heh 17:27:13 neway im outa here for a while 17:27:37 hmm...forgot what Leo said about OOP, but vaguely recalls he kinda missed the mark re: OOP concepts 17:27:54 he has a website? hmm... 17:28:58 do a search for leo brodie hehe 17:29:02 newya i gtg out 17:29:05 bbl :) 17:30:01 ok bye 17:36:58 gotta go....eat time...bye....have a Happy New Year! 17:38:17 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 18:13:43 --- quit: clog (^C) 18:13:43 --- log: stopped forth/01.12.31 18:13:58 --- log: started forth/01.12.31 18:13:58 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 18:13:58 --- topic: 'forth is clean - c is for men! || : FC RECURSIVE DUP 1 > IF DUP 1 - FC * ELSE DROP 1 THEN ; 42 FC . || badly written forth is just as unreadable as well written c' 18:13:58 --- topic: set by oxygene on [Sun Dec 30 18:06:05 2001] 18:13:58 --- names: list (clog @I440r @oxygene @aaronl) 21:56:10 --- quit: aaronl ("The name's X. Bitch X.") 22:05:40 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 22:24:34 op me 22:49:44 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o aaronl 22:49:47 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o clog 23:01:10 --- topic: set to 'forth is clean - c is for men! || : FC RECURSIVE DUP 1 > IF DUP 1- FC * ELSE DROP 1 THEN ; 42 FC . || badly written forth is just as unreadable as well written c' by aaronl 23:01:25 1- is better than 1 - 23:01:57 yes 23:02:06 : 1- 1 - ; 23:02:09 heh 23:04:20 but theres another problem with that code 23:04:23 its recursive 23:05:42 :P 23:06:02 [aaronl@vitelus:/archive/media/music]$ du -s . 23:06:02 28291648 . 23:06:36 hehe 23:06:51 [aaronl@vitelus:/archive/media/movies]$ du -s . 23:06:51 17641688 . 23:13:47 pr0n movies ? 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.12.31