00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.11.25
05:12:51 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth
05:12:54 <klooie> hey.
09:48:32 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.108) joined #forth
10:06:48 --- quit: edrx (Ping timeout: 181 seconds)
10:10:13 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.108) joined #forth
10:11:50 --- quit: edrx (Client Quit)
11:05:44 --- join: tcn (tcn@65.170.209.53) joined #forth
11:06:25 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
11:06:28 --- quit: futhin (Remote closed the connection)
11:06:32 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth
11:06:38 <futhin> wups
11:06:41 <futhin> hi all!
11:09:39 <tcn> hey
11:10:09 <futhin> sup tcn, how's retroforth?
11:10:48 <tcn> going good!
11:11:06 <futhin> do you understand tunes? cause i don't heh :)
11:11:31 <tcn> nope. I guess I should resign my membership :)
11:13:20 <futhin> lol
11:13:36 <futhin> do you know enough to think that forth is the ideal language for tunes? :)
11:14:17 <futhin> how did you get a tunes membership anyways?
11:15:56 <tcn> i think i just filled out a web form.. name, email, what i hope to accomplish.. what you see on the member list
11:18:25 <futhin> heh
11:18:35 <futhin> you claim to understand some of tunes in the members list
11:18:44 <klooie> .. people.
11:18:45 <klooie> hey. :)
11:18:50 <futhin> heyas klooie
11:18:58 <futhin> how's it going?
11:19:11 <klooie> tunes being the tunes.org project?
11:19:19 <tcn> yeah
11:19:19 <klooie> peachy.
11:19:36 <klooie> i found a used books dealer who wants $255USD for a copy of brodie's 'starting forth'.
11:19:55 <tcn> brb
11:20:15 <futhin> ugh
11:20:20 <futhin> not worth it
11:20:22 <MrReach> really!?!?
11:20:30 <MrReach> my book is worth that much?
11:20:32 <klooie> oh, the tunes website is very different from when i last visited, many months ago.
11:21:02 <futhin> find starting forth at your public library and then "lose it" and pay the library what they value it at
11:21:11 <futhin> klooie:  tunes.org
11:21:25 * klooie nods.
11:21:41 <futhin> it's been the same for like 2 years
11:21:45 <klooie> i think i only read the "Why a new OS" essay.
11:22:01 <klooie> the other stuff is unfamiliar.
11:22:03 <MrReach> one of us forther's needs to contact the publisher and get permission, scan the images, and copy the text into a web page
11:22:16 <futhin> read the faq and they'll pummel you with "reflective" "meta this, meta that" etc
11:22:18 <MrReach> (out copyright laws really need to be reconsidered)
11:22:29 <klooie> hmm, perhaps somebody pointed me specifically at the essay, i can't remember.
11:22:39 <klooie> i'll read more now.
11:22:39 <futhin> mrreach: mm, that's a cool idea :)
11:22:45 <tcn> there's a new edition of SF
11:22:52 <futhin> what!
11:22:57 <futhin> cool!
11:23:12 <MrReach> futhin: you use SF?
11:23:23 <tcn> it's somewhat tainted by ANS standard but probably pretty good
11:23:27 <futhin> er
11:23:29 <futhin> nevermind
11:23:42 <MrReach> I'm assuming SF = SwiftForth ... am I right?
11:23:44 <futhin> i was thinking SF == Starting Forth   LOL
11:23:51 <MrReach> WRONG!
11:24:01 <MrReach> oh, ok
11:24:12 <futhin> a new edition of starting forth would be cool
11:24:12 <tcn> Starting Forth :) I think MPE publishes it
11:24:12 <tcn> $25 maybe
11:24:16 <klooie> thanks tcn.
11:24:17 <futhin> edition = it's a book, not software, therefore SF = starting forth
11:24:20 <tcn> or try interlibrary loan, that's how I got it (old edition)
11:24:25 * klooie looks for it.
11:24:27 <MrReach> heh, I typed my line, then read your line, which was almost identical, and thought I had typo'd "Starting Forth"
11:24:47 <futhin> heheh
11:25:05 <futhin> and then you typed WRONG! ? :)
11:25:12 <MrReach> futhin: you were right, Starting Forth
11:25:17 <MrReach> yep
11:25:25 <MrReach> I was talking about my own typos
11:25:41 <MrReach> (which I didn't make)(
11:25:44 <futhin> yeah
11:26:18 <MrReach> I'll go buy it
11:26:22 <tcn> next best thing to Starting Forth is to look at some of the simpler compilers to see how they work
11:26:25 <MrReach> tcn: you frown on ANS?
11:26:30 <tcn> yup
11:26:36 <MrReach> why is that?
11:26:52 <futhin> cause it is evil?
11:27:15 <tcn> it's overdone and it doesn't address all the issues
11:27:16 <futhin> starting forth ain't on amazon :(
11:27:24 <MrReach> I learned how to meta-compile with Pygmy
11:27:35 <klooie> i found the $255 pricetag on amazon's bibliofind.
11:27:49 <tcn> http://home.earthlink.net/~lbrodie
11:27:57 <MrReach> tcn: do you know who's publishing it?
11:28:12 <tcn> FIG
11:28:18 <futhin> what's the full name of mpe ?
11:28:55 <MrReach> "
11:28:55 <MrReach> Starting Forth went out of print around 1996, but an effort is afoot to revise it for the ANSI standard. Contact
11:28:55 <MrReach> FIG for more information. 
11:28:57 <MrReach> "
11:29:13 <futhin> ugh
11:29:14 <MrReach> MicroProcessor Engineering
11:29:14 <tcn> MVP=mountain view press  MPE=microprocessor engineering ltd ?
11:29:37 <futhin> you said MPE publishes starting forth?
11:29:44 <futhin> or is it FIG now ?
11:30:09 <MrReach> Thinking Forth has been republished by FIG
11:30:12 <tcn> it's FIG
11:30:21 <futhin> i should put "forth programmer's handbook" on my wishlist for christmas so my parents will buy it
11:30:25 <MrReach> FIG is _trying_ to republish Starting Forth
11:30:39 <futhin> and thinking forth too
11:30:46 <MrReach> futhin: it comes free with the demo version of Swiftforth
11:30:56 <klooie> MPE sells 'starting forth' for $50.40, at least.
11:31:43 <tcn> try MVP
11:31:54 <MrReach> lemme chack my fact re: Programmer's Handbook
11:31:54 <futhin> amazon is selling "Buy Forth Programmer's Handbook with Thinking Forth today! "                                     Buy Together Today: $87.45
11:32:15 <tcn> i don't like FIG.. except the Russian FIG, they're actually doing things :)
11:32:32 <futhin> yeah
11:32:54 <MrReach> yep, I got it ... fithin what's you're e-mail?
11:32:58 <tcn> hehe.. I learned a little russian so I could sorta use their forths
11:33:37 <futhin> i was going to email fig saying something like "isn't your mandate to promote forth?  do you guys get together once a year and figure out if you've been doing your mandate? "
11:33:42 <futhin> mrreach: jbrobey@yahoo.com
11:33:54 <MrReach> futhin: what's your e-mail? I'll e-mail you the "Forth Programmer's Handbook"
11:33:56 <futhin> what are you sending?
11:33:57 <MrReach> ok
11:33:59 <futhin> oooooh
11:34:02 <futhin> eh?
11:34:11 <futhin> ooooooooh
11:34:24 <MrReach> it comes free with the demo SwiftForth from Forth, Inc.
11:34:30 <futhin> hmmm
11:34:33 <futhin> weird
11:34:42 <futhin> i don't recall getting it when i downloaded the demo
11:34:48 <MrReach> erm ... not sure it will fit in a yahoo mailbox, but will try
11:35:09 <futhin> can't you just send thru icq
11:35:10 <futhin> or something
11:35:16 <futhin> how big is it
11:35:23 <MrReach> C:\ForthInc\SwiftForth\Doc\Handbook.pdf
11:35:30 <MrReach> 2 megs
11:35:36 <futhin> it'll fit
11:35:44 <futhin> yahoo mailbox = 6 megs
11:37:11 <tcn> heh.. now i just use forth to glue my assembly programs together :)
11:38:01 <klooie> .. i find the tunes project quite inaccessible.
11:38:19 <tcn> less overhead than C-style stack frames, and easier than keeping track of registers
11:38:42 <futhin> we5tvbj
11:39:08 <MrReach> 2 megs BEFORE it's base-64 encoded
11:39:49 <tcn> Tunes put out some good OS development info before the current osdev wave had really begun..
11:40:00 <MrReach> ok, it's been sent to Qwest ... it should arrive at Yahoo shortly
11:40:01 <tcn> that's how I got into it
11:40:11 <futhin> the "why a new os?" paper is really long
11:40:20 <futhin> and i haven't bothered reading it
11:41:08 <tcn> for what they're doing who needs a new OS
11:41:11 <klooie> i thought that paper was interesting, especially how it speaks about operating systems in political and philosophical terms.
11:41:27 <futhin> argh, it's really annoying that nobody at tunes seems to be doing anything..  they are putting it off with lame excuses like "the technology hasn't gotten to the point that it could handle tunes" etc
11:41:39 <MrReach> tcn: I wrote SALLOCATE which builds an arbitrary-sized frame on the return stack that automagically cleans itself up ... and doesn't interfere with locals
11:41:44 <klooie> how old is the tunes project?
11:42:01 <futhin> it's pretty old..  5 years? more ?
11:42:03 <klooie> i can't tell from the website, nor what has been accomplished.
11:42:05 <tcn> 94
11:42:15 <futhin> there we go, 7 years
11:42:54 <tcn> everyone in it knows it's dead.. tunes.org is just a host for other OS projects
11:43:13 <futhin> why is it dead? 
11:43:24 <futhin> it shouldn't be...
11:43:25 <futhin> :(
11:43:29 <MrReach> "harware hasn't developed" my ASS, I've got more MIPS on this silly desktop than I can shake a stick at, and more memory, sound, and video capability than I'll ever need
11:43:59 <futhin> mrreach: yeah, but tunes is all set up so nothing is compiled until the moment you need it or some crazy shit like that
11:44:11 <futhin> the TunesOS that is
11:44:23 <MrReach> that's ok, Microsoft started doing that with WinCE
11:45:29 <MrReach> they decided java bytecodes were too slow ...
11:45:37 <futhin> from what i know, in tunesOS NOTHING is compiled, not even the applications..  and there's all this crazy persistent, reflective, metaprogramming bullshit, where objects are here and there and there are no such things as files and the whole tunes is compiled at each moment
11:46:08 <MrReach> so now their embedded dev environment ships exe's as an intermediate language that gets translated on the device itself
11:46:20 <futhin> the tunesos is recompiled each time you run a new program, or you close a program,  the WHOLE os is recompiled
11:46:50 <MrReach> heh
11:46:51 * klooie takes this in with interest.
11:47:30 <MrReach> no wonder hardware is not up to snuff
11:47:35 <klooie> what is meant by meta-programming?
11:47:59 <tcn> writing code to help you write code
11:48:14 <klooie> it appears to me that programming is a very layered affair, so that everything might be considered meta-programming.
11:48:15 <tcn> sorta like macros
11:48:23 <tcn> hehe
11:48:25 <klooie> .. like a compiler, code that helps you write code.
11:48:39 <klooie> or a forth.
11:49:10 <klooie> code spewing code, like lisp macros?
11:49:18 <MrReach> HAHA!
11:49:18 <tcn> the idea in Tunes was to compile everything but have the kind of flexibility you have with interpreters
11:50:19 <klooie> we seem to be moving towards interpreting nearly everything now, though.
11:50:39 <tcn> and be able to predict, without a doubt, at compile time, if a program will crash or access another program's memory.. so hardware protection isn't needed
11:50:46 <tcn> obviously this would take infinite time
11:51:33 <MrReach> I *LIKE* the concept fo the Java VM, and it works beautifully with Forth
11:51:50 <klooie> is that like the halting problem, tcn? :)
11:53:33 <MrReach> I'm quite surprised that somebody hasn't started a binary compatible distro of forth ... gforth ALMOST works
11:56:27 <futhin> forth coders are lazy SOBs :P
11:56:33 <tcn> heh.. tunes-lll had 1 post this year, and a reply saying to look at Retro :)
11:56:58 <MrReach> futhin: did you get the book?
11:57:04 <futhin> tcn: cool, all your hardwork redeemed ;)
11:57:08 <futhin> mrreach: yep
11:57:12 <MrReach> too bad Fare isn't here to defend Tunes
11:57:14 <futhin> brb, shower
11:57:30 <MrReach> Merry Christmas
11:57:41 <tcn> i wonder if Fare still believes in AI
11:57:44 <futhin> merry christmas? heh
11:58:02 <MrReach> it was going to be on your "wish list", remember?
11:59:15 <MrReach> "Metaprogramming is the activity of manipulating programs that in turn manipulate programs."
11:59:43 * klooie ponders that.
12:01:07 <MrReach> has anyone here played with Skeak?
12:01:12 <MrReach> has anyone here played with Squeak?
12:01:13 <tcn> my idea of metaprogramming is DOES>
12:01:28 <tcn> once
12:01:34 <MrReach> yes, that is certainly a simple version
12:01:49 <tcn> it's like a virtual Mac
12:01:53 <klooie> i have briefly played with squeak.
12:02:12 <MrReach> and I think it was DOES> that led fare to think about meta programming in the first place
12:02:56 <tcn> i think squeak is too far removed from the actual computer
12:02:58 <MrReach> I like Squeak, but the documentation is atrocious ... like Win32Forth
12:03:03 <tcn> haha
12:04:38 <tcn> i don't see the need for squeak's elaborate 'object browser'.. something like F-PC's editor is plenty
12:05:11 <tcn> it takes you right to the definition of a word
12:05:25 <MrReach> if you already know the word your interested in
12:05:52 <tcn> documentation :)
12:06:00 * MrReach watches the light bulbs blink, "Hey! That's not cool!"
12:06:16 <tcn> well.. i need to free up the phone line
12:06:25 <MrReach> ok, be well
12:06:34 <tcn> hey, you heard from i440r lately?
12:06:43 <MrReach> not for about a week or so
12:07:01 <MrReach> haven't seen him online, either (with icq)
12:07:07 <MrReach> so maybe he found some work
12:07:36 <tcn> i'll email him
12:07:40 <tcn> see ya
12:07:43 --- quit: tcn ("Leaving")
12:08:59 <futhin> mrreach
12:09:04 <MrReach> yes?
12:09:07 <futhin> i've played with squeak
12:09:13 <MrReach> ah! ok
12:09:18 <futhin> but i couldn't really figure it out
12:09:22 <futhin> so i gave up in disgust heh
12:09:39 <futhin> the interface was bizarre, and when i did find the code, it was ugly 
12:10:00 <MrReach> I've gotten it to run on both my desktop and my pda ... but can't figure out the stylus-only way to start a program on the PDA
12:10:16 <MrReach> agreed, code is not easily read
12:11:04 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +oo futhin klooie
12:11:04 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o MrReach
12:11:06 <futhin> the interface was graphical, i had to click through to things
12:11:32 <futhin> and i couldn't figure out anything of significance and it seemed really awkward to use
12:11:37 <MrReach> the interface is awesome, but very different from windoze
12:12:02 <MrReach> I had to look a long time to find a tutorial that showed me how to use the interface
12:13:20 <MrReach> I like the bite-size object paradigm
12:13:50 <futhin> i like the bite-size forth word paradigm! :P
12:14:17 <MrReach> yes, but once a word is defined and used, you can't mess with it
12:14:32 <futhin> yeah you can.. 
12:15:13 <MrReach> for example ... I wrote a structures package, similar to gforth, but very portable ...
12:15:37 <MrReach> nearly everything I write uses these structures
12:16:32 <MrReach> when I wrote it, I knew I would someday have to address the issue of memory alignment, but I originally wrote it on x86, which doesn't care about alignment
12:16:44 <MrReach> so I said, "I'll worry about that when I come to it"
12:17:52 <MrReach> now that I'm considering porting to the SH3, where aligment counts, I realize that I'm going to have to go through ALL my sources and change the sytax of the structures package
12:17:58 <MrReach> I'm bummed
12:19:03 <MrReach> that issue probably would not have arisen with Smalltalk
12:19:40 <MrReach> heh, so I'll just rewrite my code and quit whining about my lack of foresight
12:24:24 <futhin> hmm..  well there's tradeoffs here and there
12:24:31 <futhin> forth is pretty low-level..  
12:24:58 * MrReach nods.
12:25:12 <MrReach> does it HAVE to be, though?
12:25:37 <futhin> what i'm thinking of for a forthOS  is that there are several levels of languages..   the low-level language is forth,  and the medium language is forth with abstractions, and the high-level is forth with tons of abstractions..  
12:25:53 <futhin> with the right coding, it could include many of the good features that other languages have, etc
12:26:15 <MrReach> incidently, my ONLY complaint with gforth structs is the syntax ... I shouldhave ported it
12:27:08 <MrReach> futhin: i'd like to see you dive into a superior forth ... but I'd also like to see you avoid thinking of it as an OS
12:27:35 <futhin> i've gotta go
12:27:45 <futhin> so talk to you later
12:27:46 <futhin> woo
12:27:50 <futhin> significant lag
12:27:50 <MrReach> the OS is responsible for communicating with the hardware, and for protecting the hardware from programs gone amuck
12:27:56 <MrReach> oh, ok
12:28:21 <futhin> superior forth?
12:28:29 <futhin> i haven't really touched forth  :(
12:28:31 <MrReach> yes, but ...
12:28:47 <futhin> when i get time on my hands i should hack up some forth or something
12:28:49 <futhin> like fpc
12:28:55 <MrReach> at the hardware level, you'd have to redo all the drivers that linux AND windows have speant so many man-hours on
12:29:20 <MrReach> I'd hate to see you get bogged down like that
12:29:49 <MrReach> or make a superior forth that is *SO* machine dependent, like Chuck does
12:30:17 <futhin> well i was thinking of ripping the drivers out of linux without telling anyone ;)  (clog, don't record this ;)
12:30:54 <MrReach> I would suggest writing a REALLY good forth that runs on several platforms
12:31:10 <MrReach> (and, yes, this is a blatant plug for my own ideas and desires)
12:34:21 <futhin> gotta go
12:34:24 <futhin> talk to you later :)
12:34:29 --- quit: futhin ("byebye")
13:47:28 --- quit: klooie (Remote closed the connection)
14:54:45 --- join: Fare (fare@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth
17:07:41 --- quit: Fare (Remote closed the connection)
17:45:17 --- join: travis (~travis@d143.as6.nwbl0.wi.voyager.net) joined #forth
17:45:31 --- quit: travis (Client Quit)
19:08:43 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-205-137.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth
19:08:48 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:10:46 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
20:25:03 --- join: aum (~aum@210-86-60-228.jetstart.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
21:08:26 --- quit: aum ()
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.11.25