00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.11.22 00:51:58 --- join: MrGone (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 00:53:21 --- quit: MrReach (sagan.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 08:48:54 --- join: speuler (root@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 08:49:19 --- part: speuler left #forth 08:59:56 --- join: speuler (root@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 09:00:15 --- part: speuler left #forth 10:14:22 --- join: speuler (root@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 10:14:47 --- part: speuler left #forth 11:43:24 --- join: Speuler_ (akhandel@preiselbeere.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 11:43:51 --- part: Speuler_ left #forth 12:43:34 --- join: Speuler_ (akhandel@preiselbeere.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 12:43:42 --- quit: Speuler_ () 13:24:12 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 13:24:48 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o MrReach 13:43:50 --- join: Speuler (akhandel@preiselbeere.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 13:43:54 g'day 13:44:02 hihi! 13:44:05 how are you? 13:44:10 still dry 13:44:21 t'is pissing outside 13:44:34 same here 13:44:40 will be for a week or more 13:44:40 was about to leave already but returned when i saw that mess 13:44:57 --- mode: MrReach set mode: +o Speuler 13:44:58 i got a hammock in my pocket 13:45:06 thank you 13:45:14 * MrReach is tempted to head for Brazil 13:45:23 but i wanted to return to have another look at nasm 13:45:43 What's up with NASM? 13:45:44 oh yes they should have plenty of rain too now 13:45:55 i'm assembling a program with it 13:46:02 heh, Summer in Brazil 13:46:09 should be relatively warm and dry 13:46:19 toyForth?? 13:46:23 + 13:46:44 didn't pull out any time recetnly 13:46:58 beg parden? what's that? 13:47:09 giving it another hour should improve it a little bit more 13:47:28 it progresses in increments of one hour 13:47:30 improve NASM? improve toyForth? 13:47:34 forth 13:47:38 ok 13:47:50 that ask for very efficient coding 13:48:01 or i'll be busy a while year 13:48:03 yes 13:48:05 to get it running 13:48:24 but actually it shouldn't be so far 13:48:29 string comparison 13:48:32 I'd guess about 60-80 man hours to get rudimentary x86 forth going from scratch 13:48:33 for word match 13:48:38 not including the assembler 13:48:47 number conversion 13:48:50 find 13:49:24 what number prefixes are you going to support? 13:49:27 and the rudimentary outer interpreter is pretty standard anyway 13:49:42 & $ % ' " 13:49:53 ok 13:50:00 or # instead & 13:50:09 my last used C convention ... 0x#### etc 13:50:26 but, # $ % will be put into number 13:50:29 made it MUCH easier to parse C include files 13:51:05 and ' and " are caught by "word not found" 13:51:25 ^ for control chars may be nice 13:51:26 what are they used for? 13:51:28 °c 13:51:29 ^c 13:51:33 ' is prob for single char 13:51:37 yep 13:51:40 what is " used for? 13:51:41 'a emit 13:51:45 "string" 13:51:51 "string too" 13:52:21 with elastic, i used > for os commands 13:52:24 why wouldn't you use the standard " word, where it parses after the space? 13:52:38 because they don't conflict 13:52:56 " string" will use the : " ... ; word 13:53:11 right 13:53:41 I'm just surprised you'd deviate from standard practice at such a fundamental level 13:53:50 =5 opened source file 5 with elastic 13:54:02 (used it for the executable menu items) 13:54:08 * MrReach nods. 13:54:13 >ls -l 13:54:17 is hanndy too 13:54:22 screen just went dark 13:54:34 i guess i get me more electricity 13:54:45 instead of going out into the rain 13:54:47 heh, well tell me when you can see me again 13:54:51 'll take a coffee too.~ 13:55:26 here 13:55:30 see u now 13:55:33 ok 13:56:01 did i tell you that the diskless works now fine ? 13:56:08 have yoiu given much thought recently to machine code agressive optimisations? 13:56:10 in spite of SIS graphics controller 13:56:15 and PEX boot rom 13:56:23 yes, I was there when you first got it to work 13:56:30 oh 13:56:38 (it still works, then) 13:56:44 but then you went home immediately 13:56:48 haha! 13:57:17 here's my coff 13:57:37 this week the server shoulkd come 13:57:54 dual cpu 13:57:57 scsi raid 13:58:18 have yoiu given much thought recently to machine code agressive optimisations? 13:58:18 first of two 13:58:31 human optimizing, yes 13:58:43 delegate process to machine, no 13:59:10 heh, machines do a better job, you know 13:59:22 yes, because the project i work on may have to run on a smaller cpu too 13:59:39 otyForth might have to? 13:59:51 no, project on work 13:59:56 oh, ok 14:00:00 toyforth is @ home 14:00:19 50% less ROM 14:00:30 is that going to be an issue? 14:00:33 same amount of eeprom 14:00:39 yes 14:00:49 means, having 32 instead of 64 k 14:00:52 you're already using more than 50% of the ROM? 14:00:59 for all non-java code 14:01:11 erk! java machine! 14:01:14 today i crossed the 32k border 14:01:34 but using unoptimized code 14:01:37 I'd ask what it's supposed to do, but I know you can't tell me 14:01:40 machine-translated 14:01:58 just a smart card, running java 14:02:07 are you going to pitch the Java compiler? 14:02:25 no compiler on board 14:02:29 just the vm 14:02:34 I understood that 14:02:48 but you also said your compiler wasn't producing good output 14:02:59 oh, you might be quite interested to know 14:03:11 the translator, true 14:03:22 it is an asm-to-asm port 14:03:26 Charlie Rose was interviewing the new Chief of Police in New York City ... 14:03:28 machine translated 14:03:51 two totally different cpus 14:04:07 and he stated, rather bluntly, that they can't find radio/digital communication gear for the police cars that really works. 14:04:28 hmm 14:04:39 some japanese devices, then ? 14:04:39 that's EXACTLY what I said 14:05:00 probably newer mobile with older base units 14:05:21 but motorola had a good name in the past 14:05:25 with radio gear 14:05:36 so whats wrong with it now ? 14:06:14 not sure ... maybe they're just short on maint techs 14:06:47 spread spectrum gear should perform well in many circumstances 14:07:05 heh, I don't think they use SS yet 14:07:06 if not in all 14:07:16 they could. 14:07:23 they *SHUOLD* 14:07:25 and not say they can't find it 14:07:36 prevents fleeing criminals from listening with scanners 14:08:00 improves reliability of communication too 14:08:11 less prone to jamming 14:08:59 the technology exists for many years. why can't NY find any devices using it ? 14:09:20 apparently they have, but it's not sorking properly 14:09:20 they could use army surplus 14:09:24 working 14:09:50 army crushes its telecomm gear before selling as scrap 14:10:00 ah 14:10:02 maybe even dismantles it 14:10:20 that stuff is quite classified 14:10:32 the devices tested, were those running wince ? 14:10:40 you should hear the process my friend has to go through to get his tank online 14:10:59 Spueler, I have no clue 14:11:05 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 14:11:11 he mentioned it in passing on the Charlie Rose show 14:11:25 what does he do with a tank ? 14:11:33 not drive shopping i suppose 14:11:36 and the show focused on the challenges facing the new chief of police 14:11:44 --- part: aaronl left #forth 14:11:47 he blows stuff up 14:12:04 obstacles 14:12:06 like, cars 14:13:04 he can pick off a car traveling 100km/hr on a freeway from 24 km away ... and get it every time 14:13:10 does aaronl have a reason for a grudge against us ? 14:13:13 scarey, really 14:13:22 not that I know of 14:13:30 has he said something to you? 14:13:40 nope 14:13:41 maybe he's looking for someone 14:13:43 just left again 14:14:13 my friend is full-time army now 14:14:14 /whois , /invite could do nicely 14:15:16 did he tell you how his spread spectrum gear performs ? 14:15:23 yes, he did 14:15:35 same problems as nypd ? 14:15:35 generally, not technically 14:15:38 no 14:15:51 but different equipment 14:15:54 designed for different specs 14:15:58 yes 14:16:10 nypd = consumer electronics 14:16:30 also, the army exhaustively tests everything before it is accepted for purchase, and then before it is deployed 14:16:39 that may explain it 14:17:01 does it have a label, saying "Sony" on it ? 14:17:08 yes, nypd is probably using lessor gear 14:17:25 army NEVER has labels saying who makes the gear 14:18:08 don't know about nypd 14:18:09 i started radio dxing with an old army receiver 14:18:14 WW2 age 14:18:31 I should go flag down a local cop and ask him to explain his gear, how it works and doesn't work 14:18:56 our army changed drastically since the 80s 14:18:56 that was in about 1972..73 14:19:03 still worked beautifully 14:19:28 they started the "smarter is better" paradigm, prompted by Alvin and Heidi Toffler 14:19:36 oh yes, i remember 14:20:01 people are not cannon fodder anymore, the death of a soldier is a substantial loss in training man-hours 14:20:02 small numbers, but highly sophisticated 14:20:29 yes, *MUCH* better communications 14:20:37 as opposed to the soviet doctrin of mass producing cheap equipment 14:20:38 and better control over communications 14:20:49 calculated loss 14:21:29 for example, both the large and small missles use GPS to hit a target within 4" 14:22:00 what most people don't realize is that every soldier on the field can set the target 14:22:18 networked battlefield 14:22:28 (assuming it can't be determined by satellite photo) 14:22:34 yes 14:22:38 the drones are networked too 14:22:54 all information is filtered, and merged 14:23:19 yes, the missiles are actually self-controlled, and launched by a regional command center 14:23:20 and available to every participant (of your own side) 14:23:42 but the foot soldier can report a target within 2" of the earth's surface 14:23:54 but then the world spoiled it, by refusing to wage war 14:23:59 heh 14:24:29 for an example, my friend can sit in his tank, quit some distance from a target 14:24:41 so the us had to set out, finding new victims 14:24:42 on the back side of a hill, invisible 14:25:13 he can poke *JUST* the intrument cluster over the top of the hill, report what he sees 14:25:37 i thought he could get a calculated image through the network too 14:25:46 he can then aim his cannon at a target (even though it would fire into the dirt) 14:25:49 no need to lift instrument cluster 14:26:19 if one unit sees an enemy, every unit can 14:26:38 s/enemy/target/ 14:26:46 once a target is sighted, he can range it with the lazer, both the bearing and range of the target is sent back to command center, where they can do what they wish with it 14:27:07 this is assuming he happens to be first on sight 14:27:30 it was my belief that his weapons can be loaded with target cordinates by mission control 14:27:42 don't forget, armies now surround themselves with civilians as a matter of course 14:27:54 they can 14:28:15 but he must manually aim and fire the cannon 14:28:53 all kinds of info can be passed around, but the trigger is manual and will always be so 14:29:16 prevents computers to take over 14:29:34 yes, network intrusions aren't not as risky 14:29:35 "well it's a war but it is not our war" 14:30:25 rain has turned to snow now 14:30:31 btw, the shells that the cannon lobs are made of depleted uranium 14:30:36 arg! 14:30:39 probably slush on the ground 14:30:56 high density. 14:31:04 yes, less wind effect 14:31:08 iridium would have been too expensive i figure 14:31:30 somewhat dangerous to work with, though 14:31:43 after a while, the field gets "hot" 14:31:46 not a waste product, like DU 14:32:23 and GIs suffering from strange kinds of symptoms 14:32:46 army knows radiation poisoning when it sees it 14:32:59 don't forget, the men are expensive investments 14:33:37 the dust, from impact, is dangerous even w/o being radioactive 14:33:59 what kind of surprises me is that the shells are still manually loaded into the breech 14:34:12 oh ? 14:34:20 that's not state of the art 14:34:33 apparently, the noone has figured out an utrareliable way of auto-loading 14:34:34 reloading time is an issue. 14:34:45 yes, 5-7 secs to reload 14:35:15 afaik, the more advanced tank models of this country do autoreload 14:35:58 yes, my friend mentioned that the newer German tanks autoloaded, and didn't know why we didn't use a similar system 14:36:21 I think because the loader then becomes backup crew in case someone is injured 14:36:26 there was some testing done a few years ago 14:36:38 german cannon compared to us cannon 14:37:01 the test specs were tailored to suit the us gun 14:37:14 but i understood that german gun outperformed the us gun 14:37:33 policy didn't allow to use foreign material 14:37:42 there are several standards to measure, too 14:38:08 especially the reloading time was a an issue then 14:38:10 ah! there's a workaround for that 14:38:18 licensed production 14:38:31 us army must purchase all materiels from USA companies 14:38:52 and, to the surprise of the relevant persons, that wasn't a test criterium at all 14:38:57 however, anyone is allowed to come to USA and start a corporation 14:39:18 the reload time wasn't a test criterium? 14:39:27 not to my knowledge 14:39:37 on whose testing regiem? 14:39:44 both? 14:39:45 ask the army 14:40:06 it was the time when us army had to decide what cannon to use for their abrams 14:40:08 no, I mean did the Germans not care, the US army not care? both of them? 14:40:40 us tested both cannons, found the us cannon more suited 14:40:49 My uncle works for abrams, he would have gone to Germany to observe the testing 14:40:52 against the odds 14:41:09 i figure material was tested in states 14:41:13 he's born and raised German, oddly enough ... Uncle Wolfie 14:41:15 compared 14:41:52 there could be any number of reasons why the german cannon not chosen 14:42:02 including political climate and logistics 14:42:47 not everybody has unhappy with the outcome 14:42:49 was 14:43:04 heh, getting my uncle to talk about his work is like trying to pull your own teeth 14:43:16 he just DOESN'T 14:43:27 pul HIS teeth, and see whether he talks THEN 14:43:36 don't think he would 14:43:49 put him on drugs 14:43:54 then withdraw 14:44:05 you see, he didn't even really want people to know what he did 14:44:20 he was a "technology" scout 14:44:21 that's why you tell me 14:44:39 unsecure connection too :) 14:44:55 which meant he was always going to various university and labratories looking for new ideas to incorporate into military equipment 14:44:56 clog running ? 14:45:08 I think he's retired by now 14:45:36 but I'd sure like to hear about some of the stuff he's SEEN 14:46:02 probably all kinds of really practical ideas that haven't occured to me 14:46:19 oh! 14:46:38 flash 14:46:45 new idea, u suppose 14:47:04 I forgot to mention, all the sighting equipment on the tanks can use the infrared cameras as well as visible light 14:47:19 hardly surprising 14:47:42 so my friend can shoot a running rabbit 10 km away, in the dead of night 14:48:23 as long as the rabbit runs in a straight line, which they seldom do 14:48:24 so that it is just cooked well enough 14:48:49 cluster bomb 14:48:49 it still takes the shell 3 seconds are so to arrive at its target 14:49:27 yes, some of the newer shells are 'smart' ... self guiding 14:49:48 anti-tank shells 14:49:51 multi-head 14:50:03 so foot soldier can set coodinates, tank some distance away can fire into the air 14:50:24 and anti-rabbit shells 14:50:29 HAHAHA! 14:50:34 could sell to the australians 14:50:38 bird shot down't a tank bore 14:50:48 what a mess 14:51:20 actually, some of his friends were killed summer before last 14:51:46 they were practicing, and the tank in front of him flipped over unexpectedly 14:52:08 the man with his torsoe in the hatch was crushed 14:52:41 another man was seriously injured, broken clavical and concussion, from bouncing around in the tank 14:53:05 the other two had only bruises and scratches 14:53:22 really shook my friend up 14:53:38 he generally thinks of all this as fun and games 14:53:59 forgetting sometimes that he's riding a 40 ton killing machine 14:54:07 like this he's not fit for combat 14:54:27 sure he is 14:54:53 for two reasons ... 14:55:17 1. he is quite aware the difference between a mockup and actuall field attacks 14:55:41 2. being in the tank provides an isolation from the carnage that he is creating 14:56:17 video game syndrom. espacially bomber pilots seem to have this 14:56:19 helping to lift his smushed friend into an ambulance is not much isolation 14:56:30 yes, indeed 14:56:36 and ground support plane pilots 14:56:53 and, in a way, the army deliberately fosters this perspective 14:57:37 my friend, though, was a bit surprised that there was not an in-depth investigation of the accident 14:58:15 as far as he could tell, the commanding officer took statements, and that was it 14:58:46 he said he didn't know why the tank flipped, it had made turns just like that one 100s of times before 14:58:50 heh, no more snow falling 14:58:57 good 14:59:03 you headed for home now? 14:59:11 soon 14:59:38 too late to start anything else now 14:59:54 need to get up tomorrow again 15:00:08 couldn't if i turn on my machine at home 15:00:14 (whatever i call home) 15:00:28 midnight here 15:00:47 need to cycle about 15...20 minutes 15:01:03 so i got about half an hour 15:01:30 ok 15:02:05 actually, come to think of it 15:02:12 people passing, talking to each other, "text screens you see rarely nowadays..." 15:02:20 I wonder if my uncle wasn't simply lying about what he did 15:02:22 i use a text mode irc client right now 15:02:30 haha! 15:03:04 you know hitchhikers guide to the galaxy ? 15:03:14 yes ... stupid book 15:03:27 can't imagine shy it's so popular 15:03:30 why 15:03:46 maybe because it is good fun 15:03:53 probably 15:04:08 sometimes black, sometimes subtle 15:04:35 also read The Restaraunt at the End of the Universe and So Long and Thanks for All the Fish 15:04:50 like, the babelfish, having caused more conflicts and wars by effectively REMOVING all communication barriers ... 15:05:24 yes, I'm not a real Adams fan, but the books are interesting 15:05:32 book 6 has been discovered 15:05:47 "a salmon of doubt" 15:05:54 haha! 15:06:00 on late D.A's hard disk 15:06:08 hey! do you read much English SciFi? 15:06:14 several versions of it 15:06:24 been wroking for 11 years on it 15:06:27 yes i do 15:06:33 also dutch, and german 15:06:36 no matter 15:06:49 there was a series of stories, maybe you can remeber the title and who wrote it ... 15:06:54 i prefer the original version 15:07:09 this group had built a city that was one mile cubed 15:07:14 mostly self-contained 15:07:22 so if i can get hold of the english version, i go for that one 15:07:31 caves of steel 15:07:37 and the books or short stories were about all the challenges they faced in doing so 15:07:53 wasn't it asimov, the caves of steel ? 15:08:13 huh? I just read caves of steel again last year ... I don't think that was it 15:08:37 or was it the city which cared for the babies, and withdraw, going several miles below earth surface ? 15:08:48 I think that's closer 15:08:57 because of a nuclear war 15:09:06 have you ever read Genesis Quest and Genesis Revisited? 15:09:07 autonomously 15:09:37 possibly. think so. titles i know. 15:09:49 but need a hint of the story to recognize 15:10:12 last reading i did was disk world 15:10:17 about humans sending their genetic code on a radio signal, where it is reconstituted by an alien species called "Nar"? 15:11:01 they sent back a reconstructed human ? 15:11:24 the humans built a spaceship called Yddyrasil to journey back to earth, only to find that humans had been wiped out by natural disaster 15:11:26 who was a trojan ? 15:11:37 yes, 100s of reconstituted humans 15:12:01 no, didn't 15:12:07 read it if you can 15:12:14 WAY good 15:12:22 both for plot and technical merit 15:12:25 i'll check it out 15:13:03 need some new books anyway 15:13:22 wish I could remember the author 15:13:49 screen tuned dark again ... 15:14:01