00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.11.13 00:05:18 --- nick: MrReach -> MrZzzzz 00:08:29 --- quit: aum () 00:25:01 --- quit: MrZzzzz (varley.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:25:01 --- quit: aaronl (varley.openprojects.net irc.openprojects.net) 00:25:18 --- join: MrZzzzz (~mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 00:25:18 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 01:00:15 * aaronl is away: gnight 03:35:12 --- log: started forth/01.11.13 03:35:12 --- join: clog (nef@206.63.100.249) joined #forth 03:35:12 --- names: list (clog plbofh aaronl MrZzzzz) 04:37:57 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.99) joined #forth 04:39:47 --- quit: edrx (Client Quit) 11:41:30 --- nick: MrZzzzz -> MrReach 11:50:30 --- log: started forth/01.11.13 11:50:30 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 11:50:30 --- names: list (clog plbofh aaronl MrReach) 13:08:58 --- join: futhin (thin@24.66.209.114) joined #forth 13:09:52 hi all 13:10:04 greetings 13:10:53 i've been busy lately 13:11:04 have you? doing what? 13:11:07 so haven't been doing any forthy things or even using the comp much 13:11:41 well my dad just visited for the past few days and now he's gone off to south korea to teach english 13:12:03 and i've been focusing on school more, because of midterms and needing to catch up 13:12:39 where was you dad visiting FROM? 13:12:48 * MrReach nods about school. 13:13:43 he lives in a different city 13:14:01 but now he's going to south korea for a year 13:14:27 brb, shower 13:15:05 ok 13:15:08 enjoy 13:28:25 --- nick: MrReach -> MrBRB 13:33:58 you back? 13:34:49 but anyways, i'm still busy 13:34:56 so i'm not going to be around much for awhile 13:35:18 i'm gonna go, but #forth is not forgotten! 13:35:30 --- quit: futhin ("ta ta") 15:58:29 * aaronl is back (gone 14:58:13) 16:48:40 --- quit: plbofh (""What does this one connect to?"") 17:08:13 --- nick: MrBRB -> MrReach 18:04:06 --- join: I440r (mark4@1Cust250.tnt1.bloomington.in.da.uu.net) joined #forth 18:04:12 greetings! 18:04:16 hi 18:04:39 you know, if you type something into the channel, my client will beep to alert me that someone is saying something 18:04:50 my client is quiet when someone enters channel 18:05:01 how are things for you? working yet? 18:05:15 heh that sort of thing would tend to annoy me after a while heh 18:05:20 no job :( 18:05:27 btw, they rebuilt the server code, and lost all the user data ... i.e. I'm not a channel op anymore 18:05:46 not cool, about the job ... ladlord getting pissy yet? 18:05:52 hehe 18:05:57 stoopid ops :P 18:06:14 nono we got ennuff for a cpl of mortgage payments yet 18:06:26 it would annoy me, except that I'm usually *SO* delighted that someone actually says something in #Forth 18:06:44 mortgage? I thought you were renting ... was I mistaken? 18:06:46 well i didnt get deleted! 18:06:49 how come you did 18:06:50 no 18:06:51 buying :) 18:07:04 cool, glad you got the pool, then 18:07:19 you said "we" ... are you married? 18:07:30 no - me and my dad are buying it 18:07:37 ok 18:07:43 now, all you need to do ... 18:07:46 your added with the max access i can give - access = 49 18:07:51 is find a good woman 18:07:53 ya 18:07:55 know any ? 18:07:56 :) 18:08:09 is get *STINKING* rich so you can lay around the pool all day and invite all kinds of blonds to come drink with you. 18:08:36 ya 18:08:42 yes, I know several, but they are generally "occupied" 18:08:46 cept there arent many blondz here :P~ 18:08:56 email them all to me :) 18:08:56 brunette, whatever 18:08:58 damn 18:09:16 how long does it take to downlaod a sexy babe on a 24000 bps connection :P~ 18:09:17 HEH 18:09:22 erm ... what state are you in? why should they want to live there? 18:09:30 indiana 18:10:03 can chat up a female as easily on a modem as you can on DSL 18:10:21 god, ICQ is going haywire 18:10:37 i deleted and reinstalled icq 18:10:42 they have it all fucked up 18:10:52 if im running icq my box crashes every cpl of hours 18:10:59 im deleting icq in windows 18:11:04 http://www.rkba.org/comment/cowards.html 18:11:07 check that url out 18:11:10 tell me what you think 18:11:17 yes, and I notice that the client is doing software updates w/o asking me ... a very bad nono 18:11:31 ya? 18:15:03 ones dignity is *NOT* worth ones life, as the Jews and many POWs have found out 18:16:34 thas the one statement that i disagree with 18:17:11 disagree with myself or with him? 18:17:49 him 18:18:02 I agree that we encourage crime 18:18:06 nothing is more valuable than your life 18:18:32 a rapist would not be in business long if each woman he raped him pepper sprayed him, or popped in the nose 18:19:31 incidently, I carry pepper spray as a matter of course 18:19:44 :) 18:19:45 I don't know WHAT I'll do if I ever have to fly somewhere 18:19:50 you can acclimatise yourself to pepper spray 18:20:02 ha! yeah, but who does?? 18:20:08 cops subject themselves to it alot in order to do just that :) 18:20:15 the military are about the only ones 18:20:25 but few normal ppl do heh 18:20:30 i wouldnt want to try :PP 18:20:37 but just the same, a peppered sprayed person is NOT going to get my wallet 18:21:06 pepper spray is also non leathal 18:21:23 i would be stupid to shoot someone who was robing me... 18:21:24 and if someone goes charging around half-blind, they are quite likely to injure themselves ... so the best policy is to sit still 18:21:30 unless i felt my life was threatned 18:21:43 read the rest :) 18:22:01 there is a guy in mentioned in there,,, 18:22:06 actually, here in Washington, there is a specific loophole in the murder law for that occasion 18:22:10 ok 18:22:14 who is on record saying the second should be repealed 18:22:26 he has completely changed his mind aftger reading this essay 18:22:39 explain 18:22:43 what loophole? 18:23:35 in Washington state, it is perfectly legal to kill someone who is injuring another, or who is defacing property ... which includes stealing it 18:24:14 it is ? 18:24:20 ehhe 18:24:34 just the same, I'd hate to have to do the jury trial or the investigation routines 18:24:55 in most states it is legal to use deadly force to defend someone if they are in danger lof losing their life and are unable to defend 18:25:59 but not in dc 18:26:00 yes, but most people don't know that it's oftem legal to shoot a thief 18:26:37 dc is a defensless victim zone 18:27:00 not sure about that ... but the laws are quite different from the continental USA 18:27:01 if someone is breaking into your house and you do not knnow if they are armed or not. shoot them. 18:27:11 it is unsafe to assume they are unarmed 18:27:28 agreed, or pepper spray them in my case, and then stomp the shit out of them 18:27:29 also - dont turn your lights on - you are more familir with your home than them 18:27:40 wing chun their ass :) 18:29:37 * MrReach picks up the nearest available object (his cat) and starts flailing the intruder with it. 18:30:11 :) 18:33:31 actually, I have believed for a long time that handling firearms should be taught in 7th thru 12th grade, and that every person be issued a semi-auto pistol upon graduation 18:33:55 at the same time, I do not currently own a gun, though I nearly bought a Glock this last summer 18:34:15 i think every law abiding citizen from the age of 18 should be REQUIRED to carry 18:34:19 EVERYWHERE 18:34:28 I disagree with that 18:34:48 handling a gun introduces a mertain amount of risk 18:34:53 colombine would never have happned 18:35:02 not if taught 18:35:05 not if trainerd 18:35:20 if everyone carried constantly, there _would_ be many more accidents, no matter how well trained the people are 18:35:28 i carry a single action in condition 1 18:35:34 full mag 18:35:38 one in the chamber 18:35:41 that's fine 18:35:42 cocked and locked 18:35:48 that's not fine 18:36:01 and the firearm i cary is considerd difficult to use 18:36:03 basicaly 18:36:11 if your not taught to use this weapon correctly 18:36:15 you get misfeeds 18:36:19 stovepipes 18:36:26 all kinds of problems 18:36:27 in any case, know that the person your about to assult owns a gun, and _might_ be carrying it ... should be more than enough deterrent 18:36:42 well 18:36:53 if your attacker is armed 18:37:02 you have a 15 foot safety zone 18:37:19 armed or unarmed makes no diff if the assaultee is carrying 18:37:22 if he is within that and you dont have your weapon drawn 18:37:29 you canbt draw it and shoot him before he gets you 18:37:52 look, the point is that someone won't assult an armed individual 18:38:09 carrying in condition 1 can save yoru life 18:38:11 draw 18:38:15 chamber 18:38:17 aim 18:38:18 shoot 18:38:20 or 18:38:21 even if armed themselves ... there too much chance of upredictable events 18:38:21 draw 18:38:25 release safety 18:38:26 shoot 18:38:29 erm aim shiit heh 18:38:43 thats where training comes in 18:39:25 even minimal training would suffice ... how to load, clean, chamber, and safety 18:39:50 erm hehe 18:39:53 most people do not clean their firearms 18:39:58 if every person owned a weapon, there would be very little personal violence 18:40:04 they remove a little of teh black 18:40:10 and over oil the barrel 18:40:11 thats about it 18:40:20 yes 18:40:29 after shooting ONE round it takes about 3 hours to properly clean the gun 18:40:40 and that means a complete break downa and cleaning of every part 18:40:49 not just running a patch down teh barrel a few timesw 18:40:57 now there *ARE* a few people who would assault an armed person ... but that's a problem that will shortly cure itself 18:41:00 very few people keep their gun clean 18:41:09 exactly 18:41:17 which is why i say = everyone should carry 18:41:45 I would suggest that everyone should own ... enough of those will carry to take care of the big probs 18:41:52 even if only 1/10th carry 18:42:35 incidently, the founding fathers were not even considering personal defense when they wrote the 2nd amendment 18:42:54 they were talking about something else altogether 18:43:58 they were 18:44:04 it was one of the things 18:44:04 but 18:44:13 the prime reason was as a defense against the government 18:44:27 to prevent the government from becomin oppressive 18:44:34 which is what is happening now 18:44:44 i would go back to teh tax system they implemented 18:44:56 you are taxed on PROPERTY 18:45:01 which means LAND 18:45:03 and 18:45:06 only men vote 18:45:13 and only LAND OWNERS 18:45:27 females usually vote with their emotions 18:45:39 actually, I would let everyone vote ... and tax on GDP ... sales tax 18:45:59 sales tax is unconstitutional 18:46:07 no wonder you don't know a "good females" 18:46:19 no, head tax is unconstitutional 18:46:20 teh irs should be abolished and everyone who works for them should do hard time :P~ 18:46:23 heheh 18:46:25 shhhh 18:46:31 this is MAN talk dood! 18:46:38 DONT QUOTE ME! 18:46:40 HEH 18:46:49 i wouldnt remove the fem vote 18:47:01 the founders specifically wanted a system where a specific person or group of people could not be taxed idfferently 18:47:09 but i would abolish income tax 18:47:29 well 18:47:38 I would simply change it to a sales tax ... much easier to collect, avg citizen needn't worry about it 18:47:49 no 18:47:59 easier to enforce, also ... and the IRS can spend its time doing that 18:48:00 no sales tax 18:48:13 instead of trying to figure out insanely complex laws 18:48:28 the laws shouldnt be insanly complex 18:48:35 correct 18:48:39 but the fact is that nobody knows the tax laws 18:48:39 nobody 18:48:41 so 18:48:48 you can actuyally get away with not paying :) 18:49:06 brb 18:49:19 every year, Consumer Reports picks three IRS auditors, pretty much at random .. gives them the exact same financial data ... guess what happens? 19:03:49 When you return, I have a question for you about concealed weapons permits. 19:09:45 ok 19:09:49 back 19:10:21 anyway the three IRS auditors always return substantially different income tax returns 19:10:34 i would think they come up with completely different results :) 19:11:12 when a person has a concealed weapon permit in one state ... and then travels to another state ... what percautions must that person take with their gun? 19:11:29 well 19:11:47 if you have a legal right to posess that gun in both states 19:11:49 you may transport it 19:12:02 yes, less amunition 19:12:06 locked in an unuseable condition. in a location you cannot easilly get aqt it 19:12:20 the ammunition can be transported too 19:12:25 but locked up sepreate from the ammpo 19:12:30 fropm teh gun 19:12:35 yes, in a different compartment 19:12:54 I'm wondering about the shoulder holster 19:13:00 the gun must be LOCKED up in a container and the container should not be easilly accessable 19:13:01 glove box does not count 19:13:32 in CA, the gun can be in the glove compartment if the ammo is in the trunk 19:14:09 the idea being that it takes half a minute or so to load and shoot someone ... gives the person time to think about what thy're doing. 19:14:10 well im going by federal law 19:14:13 not state laws 19:14:40 hmmm ... does a trigger lock count? 19:14:48 there are some states that have ILLEGAL laws that are NULL and VOID under the constitution. that state you may not have a firearm of any kind what so ever for any reason at all 19:14:56 you can still transport thru them under fed law 19:15:02 which states are those? 19:15:19 well its an unwritten law in IL basically 19:15:31 you would get arrested if you posess a gun without an IL permit 19:15:32 and 19:15:41 NOBLDY but LEO's get permits 19:15:45 nobody 19:16:03 the constitution says that each state shal honor the laws of all other states 19:16:16 which is why your drivers license is valid in all states 19:16:17 but 19:16:30 try argue that one for a CCW too 19:16:52 * MrReach nods. 19:17:11 meanwhile you're 3 days in a lockup while trying to find a lawyer 19:17:38 i plan on applying for non resident ccw's for every state that has them 19:17:53 that might be a lot of money 19:18:18 some states charge very little 19:18:21 others quite a bit 19:18:29 ill wait till im gainfully employed heh 19:18:50 I expect that when I'm traveling, I'll just stop at the weigh station at each state border and ask the officer on duty what the local requirements are 19:18:59 and keep the gun in a lockup 19:19:09 i would advise against 19:19:13 oh? 19:19:16 LEO's usually dont know the law 19:19:24 youare fine as long as YOU know the law 19:19:40 for instance 19:19:48 what is the title and section that says that each state honors the laws of other states? 19:20:05 that might be a printout I carry in my wallet 19:20:14 i know of one law enforcement officer in the state of florida that thinks florida will only issue non resident permits to out of state LEO's 19:20:18 thats totallyt incorrect 19:20:34 erm i cant remember - but it would do you no good 19:20:53 if you have a permit for state x - state y might honor it 19:20:54 might not 19:21:08 all states except one have a writ that allows you to go before a judge immediately to have the case decided 19:21:25 if it's a FEDERAL law, then it's a federal law 19:21:27 indiana honors ALL permits 19:21:27 even forign ones 19:21:28 actually 19:21:38 the constitution affords you the right to a speedy trial 19:21:51 I forget the name of the writ, though 19:22:01 keeping someon in prison for 10 years without a trial is bogus 19:22:04 is it habeus corpus? 19:22:13 no, it's something else 19:22:14 www.packing.org is a good reference 19:22:16 do you have a ccw ? 19:22:38 not at this time, my biz partner did, and always carried a 9mm 19:22:49 but he's bigtime weekend warrier 19:23:04 9mm isnt a very good carry weapon. i do however carry a 32 which is a similar calibur 19:23:09 that essay has caused me to rethink the responsibility of ownership, though 19:23:19 anything less than a 45 wont have enough stopping power 19:23:29 heh 19:23:32 you can shoot someone with a 9mm 5 ro 6 times and not knock him over 19:23:34 * MrReach shakes his head. 19:23:38 he can still get to you with that kinfe 19:23:51 that's not the point, is it? 19:23:55 shoot him witha 45 and you knock him of his feet 19:23:57 yes 19:23:58 it is 19:24:05 you NEED stopping power 19:24:09 look at it this way 19:24:14 one carries a weapon so that one will never have to USE a weapon 19:24:15 guy with knife is going to stab you 19:24:20 you shoot him in the hart 19:24:34 but he still has the momentum to slash your throat 19:24:37 he dies 19:24:39 but so do you 19:24:42 it's like learning karate ... you learn it so you don't HAVE to fight 19:24:44 scenario 2 19:24:56 you shoot him with a 45 and he goes flying on his butt and dies 19:24:56 you dont 19:25:01 well 19:25:07 thats not true either 19:25:17 karate is not a very good defensive martial art 19:25:27 specially not the way they teach it now 19:25:30 ok, then, subsitute your favorite 19:25:34 they teach you to score points 19:25:37 its a fscking sport 19:25:43 not a defensive martial art 19:25:55 I don't care ... I wasn't talking about the the perticular discipline 19:26:03 I was refering to martial arts in general 19:26:13 "but i hit the guy in the chest god - it was my point, he shouldt have stabbed me because i won" heh 19:26:16 well 19:26:18 i do wing chun 19:26:25 and i am learning the traditional art 19:26:29 there is NO belt system 19:26:33 the point is that when you can fight well, you never NEED to fight 19:26:34 we dont do "comeptitions 19:26:39 or "demonstrations" 19:26:42 we learn the art 19:26:55 thats not true either 19:27:00 the way you should think of it is this 19:27:06 * MrReach sighs in exasperation. 19:27:11 i would rather have the gun/martial art and never need it than 19:27:14 need it and not have it 19:27:19 correct 19:27:22 you dont learn it becayse you want to use it 19:27:33 or because you are paranoid and think you need it. 19:27:50 you learn it because you KNOW there is a distinct possability that you MAY need it at some time 19:27:50 also, when it comes right down to it, both of those are more useful in the intimidation aspect than in the actual use 19:27:56 you prepare yourself 19:28:09 hehe well 19:28:12 wing chun isnt intimidating 19:28:19 theres no flassy waving of arms 19:28:22 even if I had a gun, it is unlikely that I would shoot someone even if they were assaulting me 19:28:27 if a guy tries to punch you 19:28:37 you block it and in the same instant you hit him 19:28:42 not block hit 19:28:47 but blockhit 19:28:55 even if I had a gun, it is unlikely that I would shoot someone even if they were assaulting me 19:29:04 every defensive move is complemented wiht an offensive one 19:29:15 it would mean going to court, doing the investigation and the trial ... etc etc 19:29:20 it is a very very effective system 19:29:29 eep! 19:29:36 what if he was trying to kill your child 19:29:39 or you wife 19:29:39 or 19:29:45 your neighbors child/wife 19:29:48 and 19:29:54 if he is trying to kill you 19:30:00 heh, but I don't *HAVE* to shoot him to make him go away, do I? 19:30:07 you can bet your ass he is going to kill anyone else there 19:30:14 you dont know 19:30:31 no, I don't ... there are a few nutz who wil attack regardless 19:30:32 if i felt my life threatned my convictions are that i would shoot to kill 19:30:40 2 shots to the heart or head 19:30:43 but I'm willing to discount those, at this point 19:30:51 i would hope i have the strength of those convictions 19:31:12 brandishing your weapon is a very good deterant 19:31:30 99% of time, it should be more than enough deterrent 19:31:34 most people who have defended themselves have eiother brandished or sjust wounded the attackers 19:31:35 but 19:31:45 if you brandish and the attacker keeps coming 19:31:48 if that fails, a shot into the air might do the trick, though it illegal to do so 19:31:50 dont hesitate 19:31:54 yes 19:32:04 warning shot might deter too 19:32:23 it proves that the weapon you are brandishing is perfectly capable of killing the bastard :) 19:32:26 but 19:32:39 if you have time for JUST ONE SHOT - make it count 19:32:46 the screwed position is when you're both armed 19:33:01 w/ a firearm, I mean 19:33:16 in which case, the assaulter will always have the advantage ... 19:33:31 and the assaultee has to wait for a moment of not paying attention 19:33:33 no 19:33:34 not if you are trained 19:33:34 on familiar ground 19:33:35 and hope for the best 19:33:36 etc 19:33:36 and 19:33:39 if HE has a gun 19:33:42 DONT 19:33:44 not for ONE second 19:33:47 hesitate 19:33:55 kill teh son of a bitch because he may have kille before 19:33:55 of course not 19:33:59 and if you dont kill him 19:34:01 he may again 19:34:03 defend your life 19:34:06 and your families 19:34:30 yes, I agree with that 19:34:54 someone who is usuing a firearm to commit a crime is asking for a hole through some part of his anatomy 19:35:17 yes 19:35:31 and if he is armed and you are not 19:35:41 break his neck the first chance you get 19:35:53 you may go to prison 19:35:54 yes, wait for a break 19:36:02 if they decide you wernt within your rights 19:36:02 but 19:36:04