00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.11.06
00:29:59 --- quit: MrGone (Ping timeout for MrGone[209.181.43.190])
00:30:12 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
03:42:37 --- quit: MrGone (Read error to MrGone[209.181.43.190]: No route to host)
03:44:02 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
04:38:32 --- quit: aum ()
09:11:42 --- quit: nate37 (zelazny.openprojects.net benford.openprojects.net)
09:11:51 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth
09:11:51 --- mode: benford.openprojects.net set mode: +o nate37
09:11:53 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o nate37
10:07:50 --- quit: nate37 (farmer.openprojects.net benford.openprojects.net)
10:08:04 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth
10:08:34 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o clog
10:08:34 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o plbofh
12:13:47 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
12:13:56 --- part: MrReach left #forth
12:14:02 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
12:14:02 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o MrReach
12:47:56 --- quit: nate37 ([BX] The Invisible Man uses BitchX, you just can't see it!)
13:25:50 --- quit: MrReach ()
13:44:02 --- join: Speuler (l@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth
13:44:26 --- part: Speuler left #forth
13:55:23 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
13:55:23 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o MrReach
14:26:47 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
15:16:47 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
15:17:05 --- join: speuler (l@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth
15:17:55 <speuler> hi
15:18:09 <MrReach> greetings! been waiting for you
15:18:24 * MrReach pouts, "You weren't here yesterday."
15:18:34 <MrReach> was just about to send you an e-mail
15:18:38 * speuler lok embarassed
15:19:16 <speuler> i won't get mail until i read it in the cafe
15:19:35 <speuler> and when i'm around i check out openprojects anyway
15:19:50 <speuler> you wanted to talk about toyforth ?
15:20:05 <speuler> i've been working on it yesterday
15:20:48 <speuler> the string lit problem has been solved btw.
15:20:57 <speuler> wasn't a stringlit problem at all 
15:21:02 <speuler> but my stupidity
15:21:09 <MrReach> heh, of course
15:21:17 <MrReach> lits are always awkward
15:21:35 <speuler> i output the string several times, just to test the 0branch
15:21:48 <MrReach> yes, but I didn't want to talk about where you were in coding, but rather how you inteded to model it
15:22:00 <speuler> and i putthe branch offset as literal after the branch
15:22:10 <MrReach> yoiu said indirect threaded?
15:22:24 <speuler> first, get it running so it can compile code
15:23:34 <MrReach> btw, I finally comiled a "hello world" program for my PDA ... after installing just under a GIGABYTE of software for the MicroSoft embedded C++ ... blah
15:24:01 <MrReach> at least the size was decent ... 4.5kb
15:24:32 <MrReach> what tools do you intend for toyforth initially?
15:24:41 <speuler> words
15:24:47 <speuler> u.
15:24:49 <speuler> .s
15:25:25 <MrReach> no intent for single-stepper?
15:25:53 <MrReach> do you intend to support accessing system libs?
15:26:05 <MrReach> integrated editor?
15:26:35 <MrReach> maybe I should not have specified "initially"
15:26:56 <speuler> once it can compile, we can extend the system somewhat easier i figure
15:27:16 <speuler> even if it is written in asm, i d o not intend to write everything in asm of course
15:27:22 <MrReach> of course ... but might want to put a little thought to these ahead of time
15:27:29 <speuler> a big hi-level component would be welcome
15:27:43 * MrReach nods.
15:27:44 <speuler> a tasker would be handy. 
15:28:02 <MrReach> a tasker in linux w/ pthreads is a powerful thing
15:28:07 <speuler> i offer a precious implementation, asm, done in 386 asm before
15:28:42 <MrReach> do you intend to make the dictionary discardable?
15:28:47 <speuler> yes
15:29:05 <MrReach> how about moving the forth kernel into a library?
15:29:11 <MrReach> shared library, rather
15:29:14 <speuler> not just as the whole dictionary, but also arbitrary headers
15:29:36 <MrReach> each header will be in allocated mem rather then alloted mem?
15:30:00 <speuler> yes
15:30:14 <speuler> all of them together will
15:30:28 <MrReach> that might have some significan startup overhead
15:30:32 <MrReach> oh, ok
15:30:42 <speuler> to get around the problem of nasm being probably unable to backward compile headers,
15:30:54 <MrReach> WHY are you writing this? what are the primary goals?
15:31:02 <speuler> we may need to copy headers uponm startup, and at the same time reversing the order
15:32:09 * MrReach goes and makes some coffee
15:37:35 <speuler> why ?
15:37:40 <speuler> good question ...
15:37:53 <MrReach> thank you
15:37:54 <speuler> maybe because i like to write forth interpreters
15:38:02 * MrReach laughs.
15:38:37 <speuler> and a new start always allows you to put in some constructs you always wanted to try out but are incompatible with an existing system
15:38:49 <MrReach> ok, then, it might be appropriate to ask, "Do you think this system will be useful for anyone besides yourself?"
15:38:57 <speuler> i started to write this one by accident
15:39:05 <speuler> i think so
15:39:09 * MrReach nods.
15:39:24 <speuler> one thing i like a lot is intergrated source view/modify
15:39:35 <speuler> which is not always well supported
15:39:39 <MrReach> agreed
15:39:55 <speuler> also the header structure is not always to my liking
15:39:58 <MrReach> mostly because of the primitive terminal capabilities
15:40:09 <speuler> this header structure will be flexible:
15:40:20 <speuler> you can change it while the system runs
15:40:28 <speuler> (used it before)
15:40:31 <MrReach> now THAT will be a challenge!
15:40:53 <speuler> on a slow system, with not much eeprom
15:40:54 <MrReach> no wonder it's in allocated mem
15:41:10 <speuler> headers were store in a compact format in eeprom
15:41:25 <speuler> and just used from there, linked list
15:41:34 <speuler> but, to speed up compilation.
15:41:50 <speuler> i could reorganize them to a tree
15:41:58 <speuler> on the fly
15:42:10 <speuler> just a new create, find and the like
15:42:19 <speuler> and of course reorganiying the headers
15:42:25 <speuler> that was done by loading a file
15:42:35 <speuler> before you compile the actual app
15:42:47 <speuler> speeded up compilation by a factor of 10
15:43:20 * MrReach nods.
15:43:25 <speuler> as it worked well, i don't see a reason not to implement a similar wordlist structure
15:43:40 <MrReach> how many primitives do you expect your "published" forth to have??
15:43:49 --- mode: MrReach set mode: +o speuler
15:44:04 <speuler> only disadvantage i see is the slow xt-to-header lookup
15:44:14 <speuler> but that's not really a problem
15:44:21 <speuler> wasn't on the slow machine
15:44:22 <MrReach> there are ways around that
15:44:39 <speuler> shouldn't be on a 10+ MHz system :)
15:44:46 <MrReach> prefix each CFA with pointer (or offset) to header
15:45:05 <MrReach> how many primitives do you expect your "published" forth to have??
15:45:12 <speuler> with a flexible (dynamic) voc structure, there should be plenty of ways around
15:45:43 <speuler> depends on the grade of optimizing, i.e. target specificity
15:46:16 <MrReach> well, are you going towards the e-forth number or primitives ... or more towards the win32forth number?
15:46:29 <speuler> i also like to code-copy primitives 
15:46:32 <MrReach> (e-forth was about 30 ... win32forth was more than 400)
15:46:43 <speuler> when compiling them in sequence
15:46:51 <MrReach> understood
15:47:12 <speuler> i took care of making primitives compact
15:47:31 <MrReach> I'm thinking about future ability to port to another platform ... in which case, the fewer prims the better
15:48:14 <speuler> conditional assembly / compilation, fill in the unresolved with equiv. hi-level words
15:48:30 <MrReach> ok
15:48:58 <speuler> i would also like to mix threading models ...
15:48:58 <MrReach> so what do you expect the primitive count to be? 30-40? 80-100?
15:49:39 <speuler> unoptimized (not-well-supported cpus) 30-40
15:49:51 <speuler> otherwise 100+
15:49:52 <MrReach> ok, I can live with that
15:50:08 <MrReach> and how would you mix threading models?
15:50:11 <speuler> just speed/effort tradeoff
15:50:18 --- join: qless (qless@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
15:50:20 <MrReach> that is correct
15:50:22 <speuler> i have mixed stc and itc before
15:50:27 <MrReach> greetings, qless
15:50:36 <qless> heyho mrreach, speuler
15:50:41 <speuler> same compact system: stc for speed, itc for size
15:51:11 <MrReach> I presume that an assembler will come bundled, if not loaded in default system?
15:51:16 <speuler> you said    ITC   and it compiled itc words, until you said  STC
15:51:25 * MrReach nods.
15:51:31 <speuler> and both types could be used at once
15:52:22 <speuler> basically, it was an STC system, calling the ITC next upon word invocation
15:52:49 <MrReach> I presume that an assembler will come bundled, if not loaded in default system?
15:52:54 <speuler> hi qless
15:53:07 <speuler> yes, an asm should be part of it
15:53:12 <speuler> loadable of course
15:53:17 <speuler> discardable too
15:53:25 <qless> hey speuler
15:53:26 <speuler> in a seperated vocabulary
15:53:37 <MrReach> may I suggest, then, that if you intend to support eventual metacompilation anyway ...
15:53:41 <speuler> i was segmenting vocs in that mentioned system
15:53:50 <MrReach> that you start with a metacompiled system?
15:54:13 <speuler> i have started with an asm implementation already ...
15:54:24 <MrReach> yes, I had gathered that segmented vocs might be used to trim dictionary
15:54:51 <speuler> each voc had own vectors to create,find and the like
15:55:20 <MrReach> are you going to be here for a while? I need to do some chores here before dark
15:55:25 <speuler> i.e. i could hook up a customized  find  into an arbitrary vocabulary
15:55:33 <speuler> no, will leave soon
15:55:36 <speuler> late already
15:55:36 <MrReach> that's a neat idea
15:55:41 <speuler> up early again 2morrow
15:55:55 <MrReach> I'm mrreach@bigfoot.com btw
15:56:10 <speuler> also case/sensitivity etc was determined on vocabulary basew
15:56:15 <MrReach> so that you can send sources, if you wish, for my perusal
15:56:39 <MrReach> (I promise not to belittle them)
15:56:53 <speuler> i'll put it on a server
15:57:01 <MrReach> ok
15:57:02 <speuler> you won't belittle them
15:57:13 <speuler> they are too nice for that :)
15:57:32 <MrReach> heh, many people refuse to let others see unfinished code
15:57:36 <speuler> some ideas i will for sure recycle from elastic
15:57:43 <speuler> but that was 16 bit
15:58:05 <MrReach> which server will you put the sources on?
15:58:24 <MrReach> I really *MUST* go ... I'm watching the sun set as I type
15:58:36 <speuler> probably blik.wox.org, and/or topay.wox.org , and/or bean-fw.dhs.org
15:58:52 <speuler> soon i can see the sun rise again :)
15:58:57 <MrReach> ok, do I look with FTP?
15:59:02 <speuler> nope.
15:59:05 <speuler> http
15:59:16 <MrReach> there will be links to it?
15:59:29 <speuler> probably  blik.wox.org/software/toyforth
15:59:31 <MrReach> I'll check in a couple of hours ... thank you
15:59:41 <speuler> but i'm open for better naming ideas
15:59:45 <speuler> not hours.
15:59:51 <speuler> i don\t have internet at home
15:59:52 <MrReach> a day or so?
16:00:01 <speuler> have to come back to the icafe first
16:00:10 <MrReach> ok, no prob
16:00:12 <speuler> prolly thursday
16:00:28 <speuler> got the x work station today
16:00:40 <speuler> does not support bootp ...
16:00:42 <MrReach> awesome! like it?
16:00:46 <speuler> so i had to set up dhcpd
16:00:47 <MrReach> ouch
16:00:52 <speuler> 800 mhy cpu
16:00:55 <speuler> 128 mb ram
16:01:00 <speuler> asus motherboard
16:01:10 <speuler> looks quite ok
16:01:14 <speuler> good price
16:01:19 <MrReach> with X, you'll want a fancy video card
16:01:21 <speuler> the tfts too
16:01:39 <speuler> haven't checked the video controller out yet
16:01:43 <MrReach> expensive
16:01:48 <speuler> not really.
16:01:57 <speuler> 250$ for the tfts
16:02:04 <speuler> about the same for the x terminal
16:02:21 <speuler> first load is going to be 50
16:02:29 <speuler> imported
16:02:39 * MrReach nods.
16:02:51 <speuler> i take one home with me
16:03:15 <speuler> but they are bigger than io thought
16:03:35 <speuler> about 10..12 inches high
16:03:45 <speuler> 10.12 inches deep
16:04:01 <speuler> 2 inches wide
16:04:06 <MrReach> yikes!
16:04:27 <MrReach> oh, ok, 10..12 inches wide, 2 inches deep
16:04:54 <MrReach> good luck to you ... gotta go now
16:04:58 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
16:04:59 <speuler> good night
16:05:16 <speuler> sleep well
16:05:23 <speuler> me goes too
16:06:05 <speuler> bye all
16:06:19 --- quit: speuler (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/1.1)
17:06:36 --- quit: qless (varley.openprojects.net zelazny.openprojects.net)
17:06:36 --- quit: MrGone (varley.openprojects.net zelazny.openprojects.net)
17:07:03 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
17:07:03 --- join: qless (qless@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
17:07:03 --- mode: farmer.openprojects.net set mode: +o MrGone
17:10:06 --- join: MrLunch (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
17:12:14 --- quit: qless (zelazny.openprojects.net benford.openprojects.net)
17:12:26 --- join: qless (qless@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth
17:13:18 --- quit: MrGone (farmer.openprojects.net niven.openprojects.net)
17:15:51 --- quit: qless (changing dimensions)
19:25:56 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.82) joined #forth
20:22:01 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat)
23:57:27 --- nick: MrLunch -> MrReach
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.11.06