00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.11.03
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08:53:45 --- log: started forth/01.11.03
08:53:45 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
08:53:45 --- topic: 'do drop >in '
08:53:45 --- topic: set by I440r on [Mon Oct 29 10:56:53 2001]
08:53:45 --- names: list (clog Speuler @MrGone @nate37)
08:53:54 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
08:53:56 <MrReach> hihi
08:55:13 <MrReach> how come all the really obscene porn are advertised by people who don't speak English very well?
08:55:56 <MrReach> "Come see women who fuck other animals." ... implying that women are animals ... DUH!
08:57:16 <MrReach> wonderful thing to wake up to ... haven't even had my morning coffee
09:03:31 <Speuler> hi mrreach
09:03:40 <MrReach> greets
09:03:49 <Speuler> didn't notice you getting awake
09:03:55 <Speuler> did you wait for long ?
09:04:17 <MrReach> naw, was also shuffling around doing wake-up stuff
09:04:39 <MrReach> was JUST reaching for the browser to read c.l.f when you spoke
09:04:49 <Speuler> we're just entertaining the concept of multi-dimensional program flow on #assembler
09:05:24 <Speuler> still grappling with the concept ...
09:05:31 <MrReach> oh? how does that work?
09:06:17 <Speuler> different ideas about. i visualize it as a kind of opcode matrix in 2d mem space, and instructions to change executional direction
09:06:43 <MrReach> what would be the application for that?
09:06:48 <Speuler> fun
09:06:59 <MrReach> I see
09:07:06 <Speuler> cryptic code
09:07:21 <Speuler> strange ways of executing a program
09:07:28 <Speuler> code compression
09:07:48 <MrReach> you know, I had thought of writing a forth where redefining a word REPLACED its previous semantics
09:07:57 <Speuler> multiple programs in one program space
09:07:58 <MrReach> what do you suppose the results of that would be?
09:08:34 <Speuler> keeps people from sticking needles into dolls, dance around and chant weird songs
09:08:45 <MrReach> I'm discovering that I like that ability in TCL
09:09:44 <Speuler> i was considering this a while ago but thought it would be unwieldy to handle. you need to know where the words you redefine are used
09:10:00 <Speuler> redefine DUP and the interpreter may not work anymore
09:10:17 <MrReach> that's true if you change its stack image
09:10:26 <Speuler> maybe you can define a ceiling
09:10:35 <Speuler> and what's below runs unchanged
09:10:38 <MrReach> not if you wrap dup to show the stack as it operates
09:11:28 <MrReach> yes, you're right, it would probably break more things than it fixes
09:11:31 <Speuler> it may have uses for debugging a program though
09:11:54 <MrReach> funny how other scripting languages work well with that, and some don't work at all
09:11:57 <Speuler> as you can stick debug versions of a word into all places it has been used
09:12:17 <MrReach> it must be that Forth has explicit stack, where most words use implicit stack
09:12:28 <Speuler> if compiler and program are well seperated, it could work better
09:13:13 <MrReach> would you be interested in writing a forth for PDAs?
09:13:28 <MrReach> which forth does your psion use?
09:13:44 <MrReach> sorry, wrong, still asleep ...
09:13:56 <MrReach> which microproccessor does your psion use?
09:14:08 <Speuler> it runs psiforth which i have implemented myself
09:14:14 <Speuler> but it is a toy
09:14:26 <Speuler> as it doesn't use any asm, and can't call asm yet
09:14:32 <Speuler> ARM7
09:14:34 <MrReach> I assume you mean the forth
09:14:38 <Speuler> cypress CL7110
09:15:00 <MrReach> is the file format of psion executable files published anywhere?
09:15:02 <Speuler> there's the ARM7 as core cpu in it
09:15:07 <Speuler> yes
09:15:16 <Speuler> there's a whole sdk for cross dev
09:15:26 <Speuler> i thought it is even free
09:15:30 <MrReach> ok, then can write a REAL forth for it
09:15:55 <Speuler> but i don't want cross dev c++ . i want development environment on the pda
09:16:03 <MrReach> right
09:16:22 <MrReach> expect to write a cross compiler, though
09:16:24 <Speuler> bootstrap the interpreter with the means offered y the pda
09:17:01 <MrReach> I'm expecting to use gforth or win32forth to write the meta compiler ... and to write it in such a way that it is very easy to port
09:17:50 <MrReach> I'm thinking that a forth can be written to run nearly identically on both EPOC and WinCE
09:18:18 <MrReach> (I'm pretty sure WinCE has functions similar to EPOC, though not the other way around)
09:19:49 <MrReach> any opinions?
09:21:13 --- mode: MrReach set mode: +o Speuler
09:31:03 <Speuler> thank you
09:31:19 <MrReach> thanks for what?
09:31:33 <Speuler> i have started implementing a forth for linux ...
09:31:37 <Speuler> just for fun
09:31:49 <MrReach> ok, how is the linux forth implemented?
09:31:59 <Speuler> NASM
09:32:03 <Speuler> :)
09:32:10 <MrReach> and what threading model?
09:32:20 <Speuler> very cpu- and linux specific
09:32:23 <Speuler> ITC
09:32:29 <Speuler> conventional
09:32:30 * MrReach nods.
09:32:42 <Speuler> nothing special about it
09:32:45 <Speuler> yet :)
09:33:02 <MrReach> I've given it a lot of thought, and decided that ITC and DTC are worth the runtime overhead on fast machines
09:33:06 <Speuler> only started to keep me busy during the long cold dark evening hours 
09:33:10 <MrReach> (which now includes PDAs)
09:33:18 <Speuler> actually, i started writing an 6809 emulator
09:33:33 <Speuler> but while doing so, it started to become forth
09:33:38 <Speuler> all of a sudden
09:33:39 <MrReach> heh
09:33:41 <Speuler> can't help
09:33:45 <MrReach> that's funny
09:33:54 <Speuler> i start to write a program, and it becomes a forth interpreter
09:34:13 <Speuler> i did so before
09:34:16 <Speuler> for a project
09:34:23 <Speuler> i was writing a screen interface
09:34:32 <MrReach> I think there's a BIG market for a PDA forth ... but it's a lot of work
09:34:33 <Speuler> and it became a forth :)
09:34:49 <MrReach> and I'm not certain how the business model would work
09:34:59 <Speuler> it was then a screen interface with built-in macro processor :)
09:35:06 <Speuler> or the other way around
09:35:07 * MrReach grins.
09:35:31 <Speuler> what business ?
09:35:38 <MrReach> I think there's a BIG market for a PDA forth ... but it's a lot of work
09:35:40 <MrReach> and I'm not certain how the business model would work
09:35:45 <Speuler> you're in real estate
09:35:55 <Speuler> what do you need business from an interpreter for ??
09:35:57 <MrReach> grrr ... that's ture
09:36:00 <MrReach> true
09:36:06 <MrReach> I keep forgetting
09:36:30 <Speuler> i like forth as giving-away-ware
09:36:36 <MrReach> this change is really hard for me ...
09:36:56 <MrReach> all I really *KNOW* is computer science, hardware and software
09:37:19 <Speuler> business with forth is often not from the language, but what you do implement with it
09:37:28 <MrReach> my life now involves lots of legaleze, large amounts of money
09:37:45 <MrReach> in REI, I feel like a guppy among sharks
09:38:01 <MrReach> that is correct about business model of forth
09:38:22 <MrReach> most likely, the income would be from tech support and custom apps
09:41:35 <Speuler> most earnings i got from implementing programs, using forth
09:41:49 <Speuler> often, implemented the forth interpreter too
09:42:01 <Speuler> but not sold seperately
09:42:06 <MrReach> what do you think of the cripleware model?
09:42:15 <Speuler> dislike
09:42:24 <MrReach> fully functional, but need key to save executable image?
09:42:43 <Speuler> coming with sources ?
09:42:51 <MrReach> $20 for a key, easy for anybody to afford
09:43:01 <MrReach> yes, see no reason why not
09:43:05 <Speuler> i'd consider fully functional interpreter, w/o sources for free
09:43:10 <Speuler> and sources sold
09:43:14 <MrReach> EXCEPT for the sources to save as EXE
09:43:27 <MrReach> ah! ok
09:43:46 <Speuler> you need sources for fully functional source voiew
09:43:53 <MrReach> part of the advantage of open-source is that the public at large corrects and improves your code
09:43:59 <Speuler> and   modify word  kind of features
09:44:35 <Speuler> open-source business doesn't run on licensing programs
09:45:20 <MrReach> I think I like the idea of a fully functional, open-source forth ... and getting the save-system word for $20-30 
09:45:40 <Speuler> once/if the interpreter ever gets as far as running, i'd like to give it to the public
09:45:54 <MrReach> wouldn't include the source for save-system
09:46:26 <MrReach> and save-system is often a barbarically complicated process, even for PDAs
09:46:54 <Speuler> i don't know whether system time is right. it is 15 past 6 now
09:47:00 <MrReach> so it is unlikely that the end-user would try to write it
09:47:03 <Speuler> p.m that is
09:47:15 <MrReach> no, it's not right
09:47:31 <MrReach> wherever you are, it's 47 minutes past the hour
09:48:25 <Speuler> true
09:48:34 <Speuler> time should be set right now
09:48:49 <MrReach> unless you're in one of those wierd timezones that offsets by 30 minutes
09:49:09 <MrReach> your machines don't run xntp ???
09:49:12 <Speuler> i might move at speed of approximate negative light speed 
09:49:29 <Speuler> they do but the ntp server doesn't exist anymore
09:49:39 <Speuler> hasn't been doing so for a year :)
09:49:47 <MrReach> heh, well reaim them
09:49:53 <MrReach> retarget them
09:50:08 <Speuler> would have to, yes
09:50:23 <MrReach> there's LOTS of public servers
09:50:28 <Speuler> i know
09:50:42 <MrReach> and you can set up your own third-level server on your LAN
09:50:58 <Speuler> but there's lot of workstations here too, and they don't use a machine on the internal net, instead they all point to the external server
09:51:04 <MrReach> so that even if the outside servers go down, the local machines won't notice
09:51:20 <Speuler> i would have done so
09:51:29 <Speuler> but i didn't that it up that way here
09:51:40 * MrReach nods.
09:51:45 <Speuler> set ...
09:51:49 <MrReach> I would suggest ...
09:52:00 <Speuler> some rdist thingy maybe
09:52:07 <MrReach> that you setup a shared folder ... maybe in /mnt/etc
09:52:17 <Speuler> to get the configs painlessly synced
09:52:36 <MrReach> that points to the master cluster server ... and that holds network-wide config info
09:52:53 <Speuler> soon ,all machines will the thrown out
09:52:57 <Speuler> and replaced
09:53:08 <Speuler> against diskless x terminals
09:53:21 <Speuler> order expected for this week
09:53:47 <Speuler> i'm not going into changing the setup a lot, if it is for short term anyway
09:54:04 <Speuler> i'll better focus on the boot server
09:54:09 <Speuler> and the common config there
09:54:30 <MrReach> why throwing out machines?
09:54:46 <Speuler> obsolete, many of them
09:54:57 <MrReach> HOW obsolete?
09:55:08 <Speuler> some do, but are comparably big
09:55:14 <MrReach> most of them will do perfectly for anybody who isn't gaming
09:55:20 <Speuler> starting with 486/32 mb
09:55:25 <MrReach> yikes!
09:55:36 <Speuler> top end is 500mhz K6, 64 MB
09:55:51 <Speuler> the x workstations will be 300MHz, 128 mb
09:55:54 <MrReach> heh, even that is now "obsolete" ... I've been told
09:56:24 <MrReach> why not do low-end Athalon machines/128MB ?
09:56:44 <Speuler> size
09:56:53 <MrReach> physical size?
09:57:09 <Speuler> there's tiny diskless workstation, with tft flat screens, coming in
09:57:20 <MrReach> I don't get it, an Athalon MB is the same size as any other
09:57:31 <MrReach> oooch! expensive stuff!
09:57:41 <Speuler> have a look at   icafe.spacenet.de , follow the webcam link. the boxes on top are pcs
09:57:48 <MrReach> did you make this recommendation?
09:57:52 <Speuler> reasonably prized
09:58:01 <Speuler> i'll get me one myself if i like them
09:58:05 <Speuler> no
09:58:11 <Speuler> but i didn't disagree
09:58:17 <Speuler> sounds like good plan
09:58:32 <Speuler> the x terminals are about 250 $ each
09:58:48 <Speuler> same for the falt screens
09:58:51 <Speuler> flat
09:58:53 <MrReach> icafe.spacenet.de isn't responding
09:59:09 <Speuler> www.icafe.spacenet.de
09:59:14 <MrReach> ok
10:00:10 <Speuler> there are many tfts already
10:00:20 <Speuler> again, physical size issue
10:00:48 <MrReach> says "hardware failure"
10:00:58 <Speuler> i check it ...
10:01:33 <MrReach> I assume that "Livebild aus dem Internet-Café am Altheimer Eck" means "webcam"
10:02:07 <MrReach> the site appears to be in German, which I don't understand, unfortunately
10:03:24 <Speuler> about, yes
10:03:36 <Speuler> i just resetted the cam, but to no avail yet
10:03:45 <Speuler> so far to obsolete hardware :)
10:05:18 <MrReach> as soon as it starts working ...
10:05:30 <MrReach> I'll call in my wife and have you stand in front of the cam
10:05:38 <MrReach> she's been curious about you and your work
10:05:55 <Speuler> but the cam doesn't seem to work now
10:05:56 <MrReach> she'll get a big kick out of the web-cam
10:06:04 <MrReach> darn!
10:06:07 <Speuler> show her an image saying "hardware failure" :)
10:06:18 <MrReach> I don't think so
10:06:31 <MrReach> I'd rather point out people's successes than their failures
10:06:53 <MrReach> jog downtown, buy another web-cam
10:07:06 <Speuler> not important now. boot server more important
10:07:11 <Speuler> and dinner of course
10:07:16 <Speuler> which i will tackle in a moment
10:07:19 <MrReach> heh, then spend 10 days trying to get it to work with Linux
10:07:37 <Speuler> it has a webserver
10:07:41 <Speuler> easy to interface
10:07:48 <Speuler> just /GET image
10:07:57 <Speuler> has an ethernet plug too
10:08:00 <MrReach> so it's not going to be working this eve?
10:08:01 <Speuler> and an ip address
10:08:12 <Speuler> don't know. not my main priority
10:08:16 <MrReach> cool! ethernet web cam???
10:08:23 <MrReach> expensive
10:08:24 <Speuler> possibly it takes 10 minutes to reboot :)
10:08:30 <Speuler> check in again later
10:08:39 <MrReach> ok, how ofen does it refresh?
10:08:41 <Speuler> don't know.
10:08:45 <Speuler> image is rather dark
10:09:03 <Speuler> i'll be gone for a while
10:09:08 <Speuler> cul8er
10:09:18 <MrReach> enjoy meal
10:09:20 <Speuler> once a minute, currently
10:09:25 <MrReach> be well
10:09:30 <Speuler> thanks . you too
10:09:34 <Speuler> greet wifey
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11:05:08 <PoppaVic> wow.. busy-busy..
11:05:29 <MrReach> heh, I'm not here, actually
11:05:34 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone
11:05:39 <MrGone> taking dog to vet
11:05:41 <PoppaVic> oh, ok - that's better ;-)
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11:47:41 <PoppaVic> still dead?
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14:40:02 <Speuler> brb
15:00:03 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
15:00:09 <MrReach> hihi
15:00:18 --- mode: MrReach set mode: +o Speuler
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15:00:44 <Speuler> hi mrreach
15:00:57 <Speuler> you're on assembler
15:01:24 <MrReach> yes, I am
15:01:52 <MrReach> can you point me to the SDK for the psions?
15:02:09 <Speuler> i would have to search the url myself
15:02:12 <MrReach> damnit! I should stay away from #Forth
15:02:17 <MrReach> ok
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15:02:35 <Speuler> why ?
15:02:53 <Speuler> doesn't require more than a few square inches of screen real estate
15:03:04 <MrReach> because I always end up thinking about forth, rather than real estate
15:03:12 <Speuler> and a few millibytes/sec additional traffic
15:03:29 <MrReach> heh, ain't THAT the truth!
15:05:24 <Speuler> often, my forth window is hidden behind others, and i forget about, missing activity
15:05:29 <Speuler> like yours this morning
15:05:46 <MrReach> not to worry
15:06:06 <MrReach> I usually keep it minimised, too ... except my machine beeps when someone says something
15:06:27 <Speuler> brb...
15:08:58 <Speuler> back now
15:09:29 <MrReach> ok
15:10:18 <Speuler> i have mz notebook hooked up to the net now
15:10:35 <MrReach> mz?
15:12:05 <Speuler> my
15:12:14 <Speuler> german/us keyboard issue
15:12:35 <Speuler> been typing so often on german keyboards recently that i start to swap keys
15:13:13 <Speuler> more familiar environment on the notebook
15:13:26 <Speuler> and can upgrade my debian installation too
15:14:44 <Speuler> higher resolution screen too
15:15:37 <Speuler> probably the best machine in the shack
15:16:07 <Speuler> i'd like to hook up an ipaq
15:18:41 <Speuler> pl bastard operator from hell ?
15:18:51 <Speuler> what is pl for ?
15:20:10 <plbofh> Speuler: "Point Loma"
15:20:26 <Speuler> that's your qth ?
15:20:53 <plbofh> qth?
15:21:41 <MrReach> HAM radio call number? location?
15:21:48 <Speuler> location
15:21:49 <Speuler> radio amateur abbrev
15:21:52 <MrReach> Spokane, WA
15:22:14 <Speuler> you do forth ?
15:22:37 <plbofh> No, I'm not into HAM. I did JForth many years ago.
15:22:43 <Speuler> amiga
15:22:49 <MrReach> oh!
15:22:59 <MrReach> I prob know your name, then
15:23:07 <MrReach> though can't think of it at the moment
15:23:18 <MrReach> kind of distracted by this radio show
15:23:33 * Speuler ponders that the forth world seems to be small
15:23:51 <plbofh> "Did" as in "used".
15:24:34 <plbofh> A friend of mine had purchased JForth, and I spent a summer writing Forth, from a dead start of being completely ignorant, aside from owning an HP11C.
15:24:34 <MrReach> oh, ok
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15:33:27 <Speuler> what a nice way to learn forth, writing your own interpreter!
15:34:03 <qless> :-) fun indeed
15:34:46 <Speuler> otoh, i have implemented oo model of java, now porting asm version of java, but still can't write a single line of java :)
15:35:59 <Speuler> did you pick much forth up while writing it ?
15:36:00 <Soap-> Can anyone tell me when i440r is usually on?
15:36:00 <plbofh> Speuler: public class HW { public static void main( String [] args ) { System.out.println("Hello world"); } }
15:36:18 <Speuler> i couldn't remember :)
15:36:29 <Speuler> ." hello world"
15:36:39 <Speuler> that i can
15:36:45 <Speuler> barely
15:36:48 <plbofh> Heh.
15:38:13 <qless> void main(void) { printf("hello world\n"); fork(); main(); }
15:38:40 <Speuler> i keep forgetting "public" or ".out." or  { }
15:38:46 <Speuler> mixing up brackets
15:39:28 <Speuler> <System.printf("hello world")> and the like
15:49:38 <Speuler> pub closes in about 10 minutes
15:49:44 <Speuler> got to hurry
15:49:49 <Speuler> :)
15:50:02 <MrReach> heh, goodbye, enjoy
15:50:32 <Speuler> no, i'll leave the pub when it closes ...
15:50:59 <Speuler> sitting in the pub now, updating my debian installation
15:51:46 <MrReach> oh, ok
15:55:08 --- quit: qless ([x]chat)
15:55:31 <Speuler> done and gone
15:55:43 <MrReach> be well
15:55:43 <Speuler> good bye and night
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16:44:26 * plbofh is away: thinking about going to see Monsters, Inc.
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.11.03