00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.10.31
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09:09:30 <futhin> you there?
09:09:35 <MrReach> yep
09:09:37 <futhin> cool
09:09:41 <MrReach> how are you?
09:09:44 <futhin> how did you turn off auto-op?
09:10:04 <futhin> i'm good..  got the forth mud project registered on sourceforge :)
09:10:47 <MrReach> I saw that
09:10:55 <MrReach> get the files checked in yet?
09:11:03 <futhin> nope, not yet
09:11:21 <MrReach> I didn't turn off auto-op ... it doesn't recognise me unless I specifically give it my password
09:11:22 <futhin> i've got a midterm tomorrow so i'm a little busy
09:11:29 * MrReach nods
09:12:57 <futhin> hmpf, i hate how netscape and i.e display pages differently
09:15:05 <MrReach> awesome! I just found an ethernet card that will fit the expansion port of the PDA I intend to buy ($56)
09:15:19 <futhin> there's this really cool template page that i have that displays nicely in i.e but doesn't display as nicely in netscape
09:15:43 <MrReach> yep, that doesn't surprise me
09:17:49 <futhin> why can't they both be w3c compliant? stupid companies :/
09:18:05 <MrReach> not true
09:18:28 <MrReach> w3c specifies the markup and its structure
09:18:55 <MrReach> w3c SPECIFICALLY avoided specifying how that markup should be rendered
09:19:18 <MrReach> take lynx as an extreme example, 80x25 VGA
09:20:15 <futhin> there are html tags that only i.e recognizes.. and i kinda doubt that some of those tags are in w3c
09:20:31 <MrReach> that is true
09:20:51 <MrReach> is sourceforge using MSIE specific tags?
09:22:43 <futhin> no, my template has some msie specific tags i think
09:34:14 <futhin> i actually find that it is harder to make things look the way that i want it in netscape.. netscape is actually more ornery and doesn't put things where i expect them
09:34:33 <futhin> netscape doesn't seem to recognize <tr height=13>
09:34:36 <MrReach> heh
09:34:40 <futhin> it's lame
09:34:57 <MrReach> hmmm ... is that w3c?
09:35:26 <futhin> uh.. how the hell do i set a table row to a specific height?
09:35:49 <MrReach> *sigh* ... just a sec
09:35:50 <futhin> <tr height="blah"> seems intuitive to me
09:35:57 <futhin> and it works in i.e
09:36:15 <futhin> check forthmud.sf.net in netscape and i.e   i.e is showing it correctly
09:36:43 <futhin> i put in color so that i can see the tables
09:39:24 <futhin> dont check the pages now, i've changed them heh
09:39:29 <MrReach> the height doesn't go in the TR element ... it goes in the TD elements ... the row is the height of the tallest cell
09:39:35 <MrReach> also ...
09:39:57 <MrReach> don't forget to put &nbsp; in empty cells or they won't render at all
09:40:20 <futhin> you checked w3c?
09:40:34 <futhin> i did put the height in td and tested netscape..  but i'll try again
09:40:40 <MrReach> yes
09:40:57 <MrReach> did it have a non-breaking space?
09:41:04 <futhin> doesn't work :(
09:41:18 <futhin> there's text inside the table..
09:41:22 <futhin> check forthmud.sf.net
09:41:38 <futhin> there's text inside each <tr><td> ..
09:42:16 <MrReach> why are you complicating the site with tables at all?
09:42:25 <MrReach> that seems like an unforthy thing to do
09:42:54 <MrReach> of course, a true forth hacker would put everything in 16x64 character blocks, all caps
09:43:30 <futhin> i like tables, it appeals to my organizational side
09:43:53 <futhin> how would you do 16x64 character blocks in html?  i don't see what you mean..
09:44:32 <MrReach> heh, the old forth 1K block editors
09:44:41 <futhin> stupid netscape!!!%$J!$J!@#!$  
09:44:45 <MrReach> often displayed as 16 lines of 64 characters
09:45:02 <MrReach> you would have to use <PRE></PRE> to build them
09:45:40 <futhin> argh.. netscape likes to display the table cells at random heights.. argh
09:46:05 <futhin> i.e automatically goes to the smallest possible size if you don't put in height=<blah>
09:46:25 <MrReach> that is true
09:46:29 <futhin> ah finally
09:46:32 <futhin> got it to work lol
09:46:47 <MrReach> so you add a row to the top and bottom, and a column to the left and right
09:46:51 <futhin> note to self: put ALL heights inside <td> ;)
09:46:57 <MrReach> heh
09:47:14 <futhin> eh?  what are you talking about 
09:47:37 <MrReach> to put a colored border around some text
09:47:47 <MrReach> anyway, am on phone now
09:48:16 <futhin> do you really think it would be a good idea to put everything in 16x64 character blocks? ;)
09:48:45 <MrReach> no, it would be funny
09:49:15 <futhin> heh
09:49:24 <futhin> well i suppose i could put in one 16x64 block
09:49:31 <futhin> :P
09:49:48 <futhin> but what have you got against tables..  tables are kinda rpn ;)
09:54:04 <MrReach> gotta go for a while
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09:54:11 <futhin> bye
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10:20:30 <I440r> an/op MrGone
10:20:34 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o MrGone
10:20:38 <I440r> 'bleh
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10:40:58 <MrReach> I'm back
10:42:24 <MrReach> $430 poorer
10:47:17 <MrReach> hello?
11:01:56 <futhin> heh
11:02:32 <MrReach> hihi
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11:17:19 <futhin> argh.. stupid netscape
11:22:13 <futhin> you guys
11:22:21 <futhin> check out forthmud.sf.net  with i.e and netscape :)
11:22:29 <futhin> netscape won't display it properly :(
11:22:29 <MrReach> ok
11:23:38 <MrReach> why are you getting so fancy?
11:24:01 <futhin> i'm not quite sure why netscape won't maximize the tables inside the cells..
11:24:12 <futhin> i'm getting fancy cuz i already had the template :P
11:24:29 <futhin> maybe i shouldn't be so fancy heh
11:24:31 <futhin> whatever :P
11:26:03 <futhin> i can't figure out how to get netscape to maximize the tables inside the cells :(
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11:33:17 <MrReach> <TABLE WIDTH="100%">
11:34:02 <futhin> that's what i did :(
11:34:26 <futhin> <table bgcolor=#ffffff width=100% height=100%><tr><td width=100% height=100%>
11:35:07 <MrReach> don't use width in td ... use COLSPAN instead
11:36:07 <futhin> i put it in td just to see if it affected netscape, but it didn't
11:36:18 <MrReach> ph, ok
11:36:30 <futhin> but basically, the table is width=100% and height=100%
11:39:03 <futhin> and netscape goes "hahah, your feeble attempts to master me are unheeded!"
11:39:15 <futhin> brb, shower
11:39:16 <MrReach> heh
11:39:23 <MrReach> I have to do the same thing
11:39:27 <MrReach> so don't feel bad
11:39:30 <MrReach> have fun
11:44:14 <futhin> heh
11:44:21 <futhin> "don't feel bad" ? :P
11:44:31 --- mode: futhin set mode: +v I440r
11:44:35 <futhin> ;)
11:44:56 <MrReach> you were sounding fustrated ... no point in it ... it is a time consuming process
11:45:09 <MrReach> that is why web experts know and jealously guard their templates
11:45:16 <futhin> heh
11:45:36 <futhin> my template was pretty cool
11:46:16 <futhin> maybe i should make the forthmud site different..  get away from tables or use less tables.. hmm
11:47:05 <MrReach> that's what I was trying to say earlier ...
11:47:28 <MrReach> to try to use HTML as a typsetting language is generally a no-no
11:47:42 <MrReach> (yes, I know commercial sites ALWAYS use it that way)
11:48:12 <futhin> huh?  html is supposed to be usable for typesetting 'n' stuff..  it's poorly designed for it though..
11:48:27 <futhin> er
11:48:37 <futhin> i'm thinking the wrong thing when i hear "typesetting"
11:48:49 <futhin> or am i?
11:49:16 <MrReach> HTML marks STRUCTURE ... not how it's supposed to look
11:49:31 <MrReach> sections, emphasized, etc
11:49:40 <MrReach> not above, below, beside, etc
11:49:40 <futhin> and good structure is important.. good structures make it look good 
11:49:55 <MrReach> no, structure is how a document is divided
11:49:59 <MrReach> logically
11:50:12 <MrReach> rendering is how it is layed out on the screen
11:51:15 <futhin> bah.. html defines how the document looks.. nobody wants to look at a screenful of boring text.. it's easier to read and find the information you need if html is used properly 
11:54:37 <futhin> hmpf
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11:55:12 <futhin> i can't quite figure out how to divide up the page
11:55:13 <futhin> hmm
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11:56:04 <futhin> how the page should be layed out..
11:56:07 <futhin> laid out
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20:16:12 <futhin> hi
20:16:17 <futhin> anybody here?
20:37:56 <I440r> not all :P
20:40:13 <futhin> do you know anything about html? :)
20:41:01 <futhin> i've got a table inside a cell and netscape seems to ignore <table width=100% height=100%>
20:49:13 <I440r> erm
20:53:45 <futhin> the table is inside a cell..
20:54:05 <futhin> <tr><td> <table max height and width inside cell> blahblah
20:54:17 <futhin> check forthmud.sf.net with netscape and you'll see how ugly it looks
20:54:24 <futhin> check it with i.e and you'll see how it should look
20:54:25 <I440r> ehh
20:54:58 <futhin> it's a little fancy, but it's a template that i already had sitting around
20:55:04 <futhin> maybe i'll change it
20:55:13 <futhin> to some other layout
20:55:32 <futhin> maybe i'll rip your layout from the isforth site, bwhahahaha ;)
20:56:54 <I440r> heh
20:57:09 <futhin> i guess you don't know what i can do to fix the problem?
20:57:18 <futhin> did you check the site out in i.e? what do you think? :)
21:01:36 <I440r> ugh i dont HAVE ie
21:04:06 <futhin> heh.. you don't have windows?
21:04:25 <futhin> you lie!
21:04:40 <futhin> you cannot delete ie from windows, therefore you have it..
21:05:25 <futhin> :P
21:06:00 <I440r> you can
21:06:01 <I440r> i did
21:17:30 <futhin> um..  in order to do that, you would need to delete explorer.exe, and to get windows to load, you'd have to go into system.ini and change shell=explorer.exe to shell=command.com
21:17:42 <futhin> explorer.exe is part of i.e i believe..
21:18:12 <futhin> try it
21:18:15 <I440r> i dont have ie 
21:18:16 <futhin> shell=command.com ;)
21:18:17 <I440r> thats all i know
21:18:20 <I440r> it wont run :P
21:18:23 <futhin> lol
21:18:30 <futhin> are you using windows 95 or 98?
21:18:34 <futhin> there's a difference
21:21:20 <futhin> win95 you can remove ie completely i think..
21:21:32 <futhin> hmm.. i'm gonna go to bed heh
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21:31:31 <I440r> im using 98
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