00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.10.27 01:15:50 --- quit: I440r () 01:24:53 --- join: futhin (kla@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:25:02 --- quit: futhin () 02:47:08 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-227-86.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:40:10 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 04:40:21 hihi 05:48:54 --- quit: aum () 06:07:04 --- join: Speuler (schwan@avocado.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 06:07:11 g'day 06:07:21 hiya, Speuler 06:07:33 hello reachout 06:07:36 how goes? 06:07:40 just fine 06:07:42 for the moment 06:07:56 cool, someone who remembers where my nick comes from @:^> 06:08:03 vice versa ? 06:08:06 expecting your day to get worse? 06:08:14 yep, I'm in good shape 06:08:16 yes. i'll get hungry again 06:08:26 * MrReach laughs. 06:08:27 sooner or later 06:08:47 just found a bootrom in a hardware store 06:08:48 hungry != bad day, for me 06:08:54 cool 06:09:04 I'm one of those who has to be reminded to eat 06:09:09 saves me some decisions to make 06:09:19 just plug it in 06:09:26 this is for the Internet Cafe' job? 06:09:31 and look for the server configuration bugs 06:09:37 indeed 06:09:54 with that rom, i don't need to look for problem in either client or server 06:09:57 i hope 06:10:06 can focus on the boot server instead 06:10:13 which prob would you be looking for? 06:10:22 wrong MAC address 06:10:30 bad inetd configuration 06:10:34 oh, people mucking with data on the HD? 06:10:53 nope. malconfig as result of my own actions :) 06:11:02 * MrReach nods. 06:11:14 it is a while ago that i have setup a workin bootp config 06:11:22 some years 06:11:35 and it didn't work then right away 06:11:51 brb 06:12:02 perhaps debian has improved the configuration tool 06:12:04 ok 06:22:54 wasn't aware that debian configuration supports bootp setup 06:23:05 oh, maybe doesn't 06:23:12 I don't know anything about debian 06:23:17 i just took an editor, and went into the config files 06:23:26 like i always do 06:23:37 maybe i'm old-fashioned 06:23:41 does debian use config tools? 06:23:53 could be 06:23:56 (they sure make life easier, IMO) 06:24:18 when i decided to install debian for the first time, i was attracted by its repitation: 06:24:23 reputation: 06:24:38 you need to hand-configure a lot yourself 06:25:01 yes, "the most Unix-like" 06:25:10 "that's what i need to learn more about unix setup" was what i thought 06:25:17 so i installed it 06:25:21 and was disappointed 06:25:32 there was an installation menu ! 06:25:40 heh 06:25:58 (before i did install a SLS from floppy) 06:26:07 SLS = soft landing solutions 06:26:17 no installation scripts 06:26:18 * MrReach nods. 06:26:25 no configuration help 06:26:39 except the manual pages and some how-to 06:26:41 oh, joy 06:27:11 no pre-defined example configuration 06:27:18 that is where Windows really shines 06:27:36 nothing like "install and it runs on the default configuration file" 06:27:48 what a fun it was to get X running :) 06:27:49 the installation and configuration is MUCH better 06:27:59 keeps the users stupid 06:28:06 I've tried a local compile of XWin 06:28:11 me too 06:28:13 what a nightmare 06:28:17 fun 06:28:40 looks like we got different concepts of "fun" and "nightmare" 06:28:50 yep, looks that way 06:29:04 i find learning about inner workings of things fun 06:29:15 I do too, SOMETIMES 06:29:19 and if things resist to let me look in, its a nightmare for me 06:29:39 that's one reason i like forth 06:29:43 but I consider XWin a tool ... and as such, I shouldn't HAVE to spend a lot of time thinking about the tool to use it 06:30:30 just press a button, and watch it working 06:30:38 yes, exactly 06:30:42 and if it stops working, call the service line 06:30:59 it might be true that I can use the tool better were I to disassemble it and learn how it works 06:31:11 i make a living from solving problems 06:31:18 but that should not be required to begin using the tool 06:31:19 i need to know how things work 06:31:35 understood 06:31:39 if a tools doesn't need specialist care, it is useless to me 06:31:46 HAHA! 06:32:05 you make your living in fixing broken/awkward tools? 06:32:22 not quite, but it is along the line 06:32:28 i replace broken tools 06:32:35 yes 06:32:38 by building a new one 06:32:50 I had pictured you as building many very specialised tools 06:33:03 to fill niches that current tools miss 06:33:12 i considered myself to be very specialized 06:33:28 but now i find that its not that bad 06:34:05 i tend to find my jobs in those niches where other tools fail 06:34:09 it isn't, so long as you remain flexible 06:34:21 thats more the keyword 06:35:06 forth fits in very well where other tools don't perform well ,or are even unusable 06:35:14 yes 06:35:36 as for tools, though, I expect them to work out-of-the-box, with a minimal learning curve 06:36:09 and I don't disagree that futher study can dramatically improve the usefulness of the tool 06:36:22 so, as a result of natural selection, those projects requiring some specialization, are left for me 06:36:37 i don't do much aquisition 06:37:04 so, if it can be done in a different way, it will. 06:37:18 but i'm happy with that 06:37:27 doesn't require me to compete 06:37:37 heh, my wife and I had a similar conversation about you a couple of days ago 06:37:59 byp ? 06:38:58 is your wife looking over your shoulders, reading along what i say ? 06:39:01 she asked "Who's this Speuler guy" ... "As far as I can tell, he's one of the best Forth coders in Europe. He lives in Austria and bounces around to Germany and other coutries to work." 06:39:06 not at the moment 06:39:32 but at other times she does ? 06:39:52 i live in the netherlands 06:40:00 she then asked, "Why does Speuler talk to you, then?" ... "Because Forth is rather obscure language, and it's very hard to find ANYONE who has the foggiest idea what you're talking about when you're talking about forth" 06:40:04 been to austria twice in my life 06:40:21 oh, ok ... a misunderstanding on my part, then 06:41:08 austria is south, netherlands northwest of germany 06:41:26 münchen, where i am now, is very close to austria 06:41:26 * MrReach nods. 06:41:55 the town i live in the netherlands, is very close to germany 06:42:09 (closer than münchen is to austria) 06:42:17 it's not really that she reads over my should as much as I sometimes talk to her about you 06:42:32 does the u-trema character (ü) show up well on your screen ? 06:42:36 should=shoulder 06:42:43 yep 06:42:49 amazing 06:43:35 cause i was wondering "how can you discuss a person one knows zilch about?" 06:43:38 not really, both windows and mirc have gone out of their way to support unicode 06:44:07 well, I don't know zilch about you 06:44:21 i could discuss your wife with anybody here, for example 06:44:26 couldn't 06:44:29 I had mentioned to her your antics and luck in working at the internet cafe' 06:44:42 no, but you could discuss me 06:45:27 that's because i have been talking to you 06:45:44 we have spoken enough that you have a pretty good idea of my perspectives and experience 06:46:00 did you meet i440r recently ? 06:46:14 (last two days) 06:46:17 yes, it's not like I've been discussing your mom w/ my wife @:^> 06:46:28 I saw him in here, but didn't speak to him 06:46:46 also got an ICQ message from him a couple of hours ago 06:47:19 so he didn't talk to you about his progress with a certain mr. rapp ? 06:47:33 nope, not as yet 06:47:34 i'd be curious to know about 06:47:47 I had asked him if he had spent much thought on XML 06:47:51 he replied "no" 06:48:08 you know XML well ? 06:48:22 no, was considering delving into it for a while 06:48:29 do you? 06:48:44 my next project could be development of an XML browser in forth 06:48:53 but as far i know very little about xml 06:49:08 heh, so you're about where I am, then 06:49:22 XML tempts you 06:49:47 after this project is finished, it would be the next stage of the project i left before 06:49:57 fromon january 06:50:04 oh, ok 06:50:36 well, not exactly a browser 06:50:45 but XML as communication protocol 06:50:47 a parser, probably 06:50:55 a little bit what MS does with soap 06:51:13 yes 06:51:15 that is why I was looking at XML, in fact 06:51:45 with the release of WindowsXP, Bill Gates has been doing the talk-show circuit to promote it 06:52:14 because of its dictionary, forth offers a lot of support for implementation of an xml parser already 06:52:21 on one of these talk shows, Gates said that XML will fundamentally change the way software is written and how we think about data 06:52:41 * MrReach nods. 06:53:12 he may actually be right there even if i dislike having to agree with him 06:53:30 but the overhead is considerable 06:53:36 brb ... 06:58:37 Gates is now the richest man on Earth ... one does not get that way by being an idiot 06:59:00 when Gates says something is going to happen, then I tend to think it will 07:12:42 ba 07:13:13 heh 07:13:35 hail the prophet ? 07:13:51 not prophet 07:14:19 if something doesn't work out the way he wants, he simply spends enough money to fix the problem 07:14:34 didn't he say that NT would be available 4 years before it was ? 07:15:06 when he violated the law, he can't exactly "fix" it ... but has done enough media campaigning that noone really cares anymore 07:15:35 yes, he is not perfect ... many prodeucts late 07:16:09 i wanted to buy me an ipaq today ... they were sold out ! 07:16:18 bought me an emap instead 07:16:19 he also screwed up the goals of lowering high-bandwidth expense 07:16:52 'll try the ipaq again next week 07:17:21 he wanted high-bandwidth in every home, and spent LOTS of money trying to reduce the costs to the end-user ... and failed miserably 07:17:36 microsoft has a stake of 10 % in my net provider 07:17:39 ok, tell me how you like it when you've used it for a while 07:17:53 i've been using an etrax for some yers 07:17:55 years 07:18:07 and have a gps162 in the bus 07:18:20 i like both 07:18:28 yes, he spent sever BILLION dollars trying to improve the infrastructure of service providers, hoping they would then lower their fees 07:18:33 i should like the emap too 07:18:48 what is an etrax? 07:19:05 smallest unit, no maps 07:19:28 oh, ok 07:19:37 about 120 grams w/o batteries 07:20:03 runs about 20 hours on two AA cells 07:20:27 a specialized mapping/gps device? 07:20:31 using lithium cells (12 grams each), somewhat longer 07:20:58 emap has basemap and supports loadable maps, flash exchangable 07:21:19 etrex has no maps at all 07:21:25 just waypoints 07:21:53 ok 07:21:53 enough to get you to the destinination 07:22:02 but not enough to tell you how 07:22:29 you can run into dead ends with etrex 07:23:05 i can load the gps162 maps into the emap 07:23:17 but also more detailed ones 07:23:32 gps162 has 4mb flash. 07:23:43 emap comes with a 16mb 07:24:22 etrex data cable has same connector as emap 07:24:56 gps162 has fixed cable, no plug on the gps side 07:25:08 had to solder a db9 to it 07:25:30 gps162 is targetted for ship use 07:25:46 but basemap too, and loadable detail maps 07:26:24 as i can continue to use the gps162 maps, emap makes sense for portable use 07:26:47 but it came with "metroguide" maps too 07:27:06 on gps162 i can't seatch a road 07:27:10 on emap, i can 07:27:14 search 07:27:55 gps162 in car is great if i don't travel motorways 07:28:03 which i prefer to do 07:28:09 which ipaq were you going to purchase? 07:28:21 don't know yet. one with lots of ram and flash 07:28:31 38xx maybe 07:28:31 heh 07:29:00 ipaq is going to run linux 07:29:12 and forth 07:29:20 with foldable keyboard 07:29:39 i want an SA110 handheld 07:29:45 strong arm 07:29:58 to do some asm stuff on it too 07:30:29 if it runs linux too, even better 07:30:51 it will run Linux, or it does? 07:30:55 ipaq is what started as itsy, is my understanding 07:31:05 itsy was made for linux 07:31:33 it comes with wince, but linux runs very well on it 07:32:04 208 mhz cpu 07:32:22 color display 07:32:38 and still >12 hours on rechargable battery 07:32:47 impressive 07:33:20 i want the most powerful one 07:33:23 of course 07:33:51 what is "bluetooth"? 07:34:06 wireless radio short distance protocol 07:34:14 oh, ok 07:34:37 2.4 ghz frequency band 07:34:54 automatic device detection 07:35:09 of other bluetooth devices 07:35:32 kind of wireless network 07:36:14 about 800 kb/sec xfer rate i *think* 07:36:44 not important for me right now 07:37:02 would need more bluetooth devices to be able to use it 07:37:16 like, cell phone 07:37:29 or base station network adapter 07:37:30 god, what a beautiful application for a native forth/OS 07:37:59 sounds like dream comes true 07:38:09 native-mode forth 07:38:12 quick 07:38:18 very demonstratable 07:38:18 lots of infrastructure to get base functions working, though 07:38:38 pity the screen is that small (320x240) 07:39:04 who has larger screen? 07:39:15 my psion5 has 640x240 07:39:23 it looks like much of the OS depends on that resolution 07:39:27 monochrome 07:39:39 because I'm not seeing alternative resolutions at all 07:40:06 i'll give the psion away 07:40:14 it has served its purpose 07:40:25 oh? send it to me 07:40:36 I don't have a PDA at all right now 07:40:48 it goes to the person who pays for the ipaq :) 07:40:58 I've been considering purchasing one ... but hard to sort out options 07:41:03 HAHAHA! 07:41:14 then not "given away" 07:41:16 he's very interested in it 07:41:34 oh, I see 07:41:34 given away, as i got the money for the ipaq already 07:41:43 w/o condition 07:41:49 right 07:41:58 was my dad 07:42:05 he doesn't won a computer 07:42:08 own 07:42:11 heh 07:42:44 but, when he saw what i could do with the psion, he became interested 07:43:02 and my mother also said she'd like to have one :) 07:43:20 just because of some files i have on the machine 07:43:34 they were looking for information about a certain plant 07:43:39 to no avail. 07:44:32 it so happened that a database on "magic plants" which i have on the psion, contained the information she was looking for 07:44:42 heh 07:44:46 that convinced here ... 07:44:49 her ... 07:45:19 i've printed out that file, but of course, on paper, you can't search that easy 07:45:44 for example, search for "cholesterine" 07:45:52 and collect the matches:) 07:46:01 it was actually a tree she was looking for 07:46:10 of chinese origin 07:46:46 no need to say that she was very surprised that i has the info she was looking for for months, in my pocket 07:46:49 * MrReach nods. 07:46:57 brb 07:50:05 back again. 07:50:11 us lady required assitance 07:50:12 ok 07:50:15 cutie too 07:50:23 * MrReach laughs. 07:50:41 great job ) 07:50:44 :) 07:51:43 the amount forward by my dad was not especially meant for ipaq 07:52:18 but the specification of what to use it for fits well 07:52:19 ok 07:52:35 birthday money>? 07:52:44 as the psion becomes redundant, i'll return something for it 07:52:49 yes, indeed 07:53:19 happy birthday, then 07:53:30 the emap i bought because i don't have a route planner on the ipaq 07:53:36 but on the psion, i do 07:54:06 as i wouldn't like to miss that function, the emap helps me replacing the psion 07:54:21 (i could connect the etrex to the psion too) 07:54:33 heh 07:54:51 time for me to nap 07:54:58 my ulcer is bothering me a bit 07:54:59 as the road map program supports gps coordinates input, to map your current position 07:55:33 having that functionality in one device helps of course 07:55:44 pleasureful dreams 07:55:48 thank you 07:55:49 bice to talk to you 07:55:51 nice 07:55:56 --- nick: MrReach -> MrZZZZZ 07:56:37 ne1 awake here ? 07:57:03 --- part: Speuler left #forth 08:23:56 --- join: rob_ert (robert@h3n1fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 09:26:37 --- join: edrx (edrx@copacabana-ttyS29.inx.com.br) joined #forth 09:27:06 Hey 09:31:53 hey hey 10:42:52 --- nick: rob_ert -> rob|away 10:53:56 --- join: Speuler (akhandel@avocado.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 10:54:04 hi 10:54:49 Hey Speuler 10:54:58 hi rob 10:55:12 i'm talking to one who is away :) 10:55:18 Yup 10:55:23 I'll go away soon 10:55:35 ich will raus gehen 10:55:44 i just returned to work from dinner break :) 10:56:17 life is hard 10:56:52 what countries have you travelled to ? 10:56:58 heh 10:57:01 the US 10:57:34 liked it ? 10:58:09 Yeah, I was out in the nevadian desert 10:58:18 with a couple we know who live there 10:58:56 sounds cool 10:58:57 Und du? 10:58:58 actually, hot 10:59:01 but cool 10:59:05 hehe, yeah 10:59:13 but, we went there in october 10:59:14 just europe 10:59:18 so, just like 25 degrees 10:59:36 most of the west 10:59:52 not portugal 11:00:28 not east 11:00:44 and skipped vatican 11:01:15 Well, you've been to a lot of places then :) 11:01:32 several times to andorra 11:01:56 when i was living not far away from there 11:02:06 in the pyrenees 11:02:52 and not further up than denmark on the continent 11:03:04 not iceland 11:03:08 Sweden? 11:03:09 want to go there 11:03:38 sweden norway iceland are the next candidates 11:04:12 and szechia 11:04:24 Sweden is a nice country =D 11:04:28 (very close to where i am now) 11:04:49 that's what i'm told about. gotta see it myself 11:05:12 It's not just beatiful ;-) 11:05:48 been to the highest cliffs in europe 11:06:14 at least, the norwegian and irish disagree on who got the highest 11:06:57 * rob|away goes outside... 11:07:05 See you, Speuler :) 11:07:11 bye rob 11:50:14 --- part: Speuler left #forth 11:58:45 --- nick: rob|away -> rob_ert 12:05:21 --- join: topaz8 (k@d120073.upc-d.chello.nl) joined #forth 12:05:55 --- quit: topaz8 (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/1.1) 12:13:15 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 12:22:15 --- nick: rob_ert -> rob|eating 12:38:18 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-227-86.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 12:40:55 --- quit: aum () 12:41:37 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-227-86.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 12:42:17 --- nick: rob|eating -> rob_ert 12:42:49 Hey aum 13:04:44 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.94) joined #forth 13:05:05 wb 13:10:03 hi 13:10:24 (sorry for delay - i had my face in a pile of code) 13:11:50 Hehe 13:11:52 It's OK ;) 13:12:00 You're forgiven 13:12:05 :) 13:12:15 are you a forth person? 13:13:37 Not really, I haven't even understood how it can be an intepreted & compiled language 13:13:42 * aum has been busy writing an 'autodoc' util which extracts comments from forth and C source and produces html manuals 13:14:07 but I have written some compiler for a stack-based minimalistic lang ;) 13:14:17 ok 13:14:54 i'm new to forth, but as i understand it so far, it runs a small efficient virtual machine 13:15:39 yeah 13:15:49 and inteprets itself in some way... 13:15:52 forth functions - words as they're called - behave differently when compiled from when they're interpreted 13:15:57 never understood how though 13:17:04 most words when interpreted take action immediately, but when they're compiled, they write their own address into memory for later execution 13:34:28 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 13:37:54 --- join: Speuler (schwan@zitrone.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 13:38:53 Hey 13:39:00 hey rob 13:40:02 i'm using console irc right now. i'll change channels, and be back in a moment. can you tell me whether i leave this channel then ? 13:40:38 please type something as soon as i have left, that i see whether i still see messages typed into the previous channel. 13:40:44 going now ... 13:40:47 hm 13:40:51 ok 13:40:58 --- part: Speuler left #forth 13:41:04 Hehe 13:41:07 --- join: qless (qless@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 13:41:08 No way he's hearing this 13:41:12