00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.10.25
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10:42:32 --- nick: MrVideo -> MrReach
10:43:02 <MrReach> I grok TCL, edrx, what were you talking about?
10:43:49 <edrx> about a kind of diagram to explain how the Tcl interpreter works, by showing how the contexts nest, and how things are parsed differently in each context...
10:43:51 <edrx> example:
10:43:58 <edrx> http://angg.twu.net/e/tcl-cipsga.e.html#statements_e_words
10:47:38 <MrReach> ok
10:48:09 <MrReach> who is the audience for such diagrams?
10:48:46 <edrx> I'm going to give a course on Tcl in  few weeks
10:49:01 <MrReach> ah!
10:49:34 <edrx> I'm planning to use them to help me when I'm waving hands trying to convince people of how the interpreter works
10:49:36 <MrReach> well, I consider it one of the simpler sytaxes, though the quoting sometimes catches me by surprise
10:49:54 <edrx> me too - it was quite painful in the first weeks
10:50:29 <MrReach> does it matter how the interpreter works? are speaking about internally?
10:50:37 <MrReach> JIT compiling and all that?
10:50:47 --- mode: MrReach set mode: +o edrx
10:52:19 <MrReach> unfortunately, I only understood about 1/5 of the page you refered me to
10:54:15 <edrx> no, not internally... but people need to know what to expect when they write a chunk of tcl code, so they need the rules of how each part ([expr 1+2], say) is tranformed...
10:54:38 <MrReach> ok, got you
10:54:58 <edrx> sorry, I'm writing it in portuguese to use in the course, the main thing I wanted to show you was the diagram
10:54:59 <MrReach> actually, the tclsh page is pretty clear about how substitutions are made
10:55:06 <MrReach> have you forgotten that one?
10:55:23 <edrx> no, I even have hyperlinks to it at some points
10:55:30 * MrReach nods.
10:55:36 <edrx> and I'm translating it to portuguese
10:55:46 <edrx> but it lacks examples
10:55:56 <MrReach> I'd probably start with that, verbatim, and expand with more examples
10:56:00 <MrReach> heh
10:56:30 <MrReach> brb, coffee
10:59:01 <MrReach> are you approaching from a TCL level or a WISH one?
11:00:32 <MrReach> brb, need to reboot
11:00:42 <edrx> both... first tcl, then after people get some notion of the syntax I show them the "widget" demo and say "and now our next task is learn what's inside that"
11:00:43 <MrReach> you can op me when I get back
11:00:48 <edrx> ok
11:01:00 <MrReach> good idea
11:01:08 <MrReach> I was thinking of a primitve text editor
11:01:13 <MrReach> but the demos are better
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11:07:11 --- mode: edrx set mode: +o MrReach
11:07:21 <edrx> hi
11:07:29 <edrx> here's a primitive text editor:
11:07:31 <MrReach> hihi
11:07:42 <edrx> http://angg.twu.net/e/tcl-cipsga.e.html#mywish
11:08:06 <edrx> if you press the button it executes the selected text
11:10:51 <MrReach> that's pretty nifty
11:11:17 <MrReach> somebody in the TCL chat is writing a good TCL editor (based on text widget)
11:11:23 <MrReach> it look REAL sharp
11:11:41 <edrx> it's like the emacs trick, but in Tcl, and without the elisp hyperlinks, of course
11:11:49 <MrReach> heh
11:11:55 <edrx> tcl chat?
11:12:03 <edrx> #tcl?
11:12:06 <MrReach> now THERE is a indepherable language!
11:12:14 <MrReach> no, it's a web-based chat
11:12:15 <edrx> elisp?
11:12:25 <MrReach> many of the core developers hang out there
11:12:33 <MrReach> yes, elisp is hard to read
11:12:46 <MrReach> only because of the infrastructure behind it that is emacs
11:12:58 <MrReach> just a sec, get the URL
11:13:10 <edrx> I agree... if it weren't by the fact that one can runs chunks of it interctively it would be nearly impossible to use
11:13:28 <MrReach> http://mini.net/cgi-bin/chat.cgi
11:13:38 <MrReach> it's a perl chat script
12:09:22 <MrReach> glad to see you got the wikit working
12:18:00 <edrx> me too :) now I'm going to work on the program to make those diagrams
12:18:11 <MrReach> ok, be well
12:19:27 <edrx> I'm not sure if I was able to logout
12:19:54 * MrReach shrugs, "No biggie"
12:20:07 <MrReach> I'm not on the chat either
12:20:11 <MrReach> so I couldn't tell you
12:21:21 <edrx> ok, I logged out
12:21:36 <edrx> I logged in again to check, then out again... :|
12:21:43 <MrReach> heh
12:32:26 <edrx> btw #tcl is a nice irc channel, and I never saw more than 4 people there...
12:32:37 <edrx> I met davidw there
12:32:38 <MrReach> yep
12:32:43 <MrReach> rather pointless
12:32:50 <MrReach> here on linpeople?
12:33:35 <edrx> it this linpeople? In my blissful ignorance this is "the server that I connect via irc.debian.org"...
12:34:03 <edrx> I thought it was openprojects
12:34:18 <MrReach> sorry, you're right, it *IS* openprojects.net
12:34:40 <MrReach> but you're speaking of #tcl on this netowrk?
12:34:53 <edrx> I don't like linux, I'd be a bit ashamed to know that this is called linpeople...
12:34:55 <edrx> yes
12:35:03 <edrx> I just disconnected from #tcl
12:36:17 <edrx> gotta go
12:36:35 <edrx> need to code+write for for the course+study+sleep
12:36:43 <MrReach> ok
12:36:45 <MrReach> have fun
12:36:47 <edrx> plus fix a backache
12:36:49 <edrx> you too
12:36:57 <edrx> see ya, []
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14:39:58 <I440r> hehe
14:40:05 <I440r> cool topic L:)
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16:20:24 <qless> heyho
18:03:14 <I440r> hi
18:03:31 <I440r> who gless
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20:33:58 <I440r> hi :)
20:34:32 <futhin> hmm?
20:34:34 <futhin> you there?
20:34:40 <I440r> not all :)
20:43:14 <futhin> hmm
20:44:00 <futhin> let's talk the collaborative business thingie
20:44:21 <futhin> what do you think about it ? :P
20:45:00 <futhin> it'd be nice if forth coders got together and by doing so, jobs were created. 
20:47:02 <I440r> i dont think it will work
20:47:04 <I440r> at all
20:47:15 <I440r> not on any CLOSED projects
20:48:43 <I440r> it works great on open projects like linux etc
20:55:51 <futhin> why not closed projects?  it would be a company..
20:56:58 <I440r> because of the security
20:57:11 <futhin> bah
20:57:22 <I440r> the company that hired us would want us to work ON sight
20:57:27 <I440r> not remotly
20:57:49 <futhin> bah
20:58:01 <futhin> they don't have to know everything 
20:58:43 <futhin> besides.. the company will be doing custom programming.. making custom applications
20:59:51 <futhin> and we won't tell them that we're coding in it forth either :P
21:01:16 <futhin> unless they ask 
21:02:00 <I440r> hehe that wouldnt work
21:02:11 <I440r> they would want total control over who what where when and how
21:02:26 <I440r> you will write this using this compiler using thyese libraries
21:02:31 <I440r> and we want it tin 2 weeks
21:02:48 <futhin> and for custom programming, they aren't really going to mind that it's coded collaboratively.  security isn't a problem.   there can be an agent that will handle the client the whole time.
21:04:24 <futhin> it's not hard to do encryption between forth coder's computer and the main collaborative server.  we can mail 1 gigabyte keys to each forth coder ;)
21:04:44 <futhin> not every project will be extremely sensitive
21:04:57 <I440r> wrong
21:04:59 <I440r> they all are
21:05:06 <I440r> work as a consultant for a while
21:05:20 <futhin> we're not talking programming for embedded stuff _at all_
21:06:24 <I440r> ugh
21:06:29 <I440r> thats all i do
21:06:35 <I440r> i dont do anything but
21:07:16 <futhin> this collaborative company would be doing custom programs for pcs..  that's what i was thinking.. that's where the market is... isn't it
21:08:48 <futhin> why would you not do forth coding for pcs??
21:09:08 <I440r> what sort of shit do you expect to be doing ?
21:11:52 <futhin> well i dunno.  the main reason for coming up with this idea is to "generate forth coding jobs for forth coders".  that's the main thing.  i figured most forth coders including potential forth coders would prefer to code applications for the pc..
21:12:26 <futhin> if you have better ideas or alternate suggestions
21:13:51 <futhin> please say :)
21:15:28 <futhin> hmm
21:15:37 <futhin> i gotta go to bed pretty soon
21:15:57 <I440r> ill think abou it...
21:16:30 <I440r> but i dont know how it would work
21:16:32 <futhin> yeah, please do.. it's all about creating jobs because you were saying how you really want a job coding forth.. so i started thinking about how to create jobs :)
21:17:04 <futhin> and i figured if forth coders got together and presented a professional front, they'd be able to get the jobs.
21:17:55 <I440r> thats what forth inc is about
21:17:57 <I440r> sort of
21:18:29 <aaronl> I440r!!!
21:18:34 <futhin> they kinda suck :P
21:18:39 <I440r> :)
21:18:42 <I440r> kinda
21:19:18 <futhin> well think about it and we'll talk about it some more later.  i gotta go
21:19:32 <futhin> laters
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21:20:15 <aaronl> what's wrong with purplecoder?
21:20:40 <I440r> i moved
21:20:43 <I440r> cant get dsl here :(
21:21:29 <aaronl> :(
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.10.25