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14:31:03 --- topic: set to 'relax, we're just forth coders' by futhin
14:50:15 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach
14:50:25 <MrReach> ihi
15:17:42 <futhin> hihiihhihhihihihihihihi
15:17:52 <futhin> hooooooh iiiiiii! 
15:17:54 <MrReach> heh
15:17:59 <futhin> hmm.. i'm hyper
15:18:09 <MrReach> so I had guessed
15:18:39 <futhin> so tell me what you think about this idea:
15:21:17 <MrReach> ???
15:22:00 <futhin> a business that runs a collaborative universe that forth coders would log into and would work on contracts online.   the business gets contracts from other businesses
15:22:17 <futhin> the forth coders act as representatives in their local area
15:22:33 <MrReach> debian uses a system similar to that, I think
15:22:36 <futhin> although there would be an office with support staff (salesmen, secretaries)
15:22:49 <futhin> this would be for generating forth jobs
15:23:13 <futhin> so that all the forth coders can get jobs coding in forth (since some of them would prefer to code in forth..)
15:23:23 <MrReach> heh
15:24:17 <MrReach> it would be kinda cool to have the NASA Shuttle software and the software for the varous satelites online
15:24:36 <MrReach> (all except access passwords, of course)
15:25:20 <futhin> heh, what does that have to do with my idea? :)
15:26:02 <MrReach> all of the NASA control systems on the shuttles and the majority of OSs on satellites are forth
15:26:46 <MrReach> if such a collaborative company were established, that would be a primary target for coding, because it is so high profile
15:27:16 <MrReach> "We wrote the code that flies the space shuttle"
15:27:48 <futhin> yeah
15:27:52 <MrReach> here it is online for browsing ... if you should happen to see any errors, LET US KNOW, WE'LL PAY YOU
15:29:28 <futhin> ALSO:  if a whole bunch of forth coders team up via internet, they can foist jobs off onto each other - they can find jobs locally and get all the other forth coders involved.. so that the contract will be done, and on time..
15:29:57 <futhin> all the forth coders would act as representatives for the company.. they would advertise the company in their region.. etc
15:30:14 <MrReach> well, that might work so long as the forth is for PCs
15:30:23 <futhin> yes
15:30:36 <MrReach> most applications are actually in embedded, specialized processors
15:30:37 <futhin> i'm not really thinking of embedded.. i'm thinking more like "custom coding" 
15:30:47 * MrReach nods.
15:30:56 <futhin> why should forth be limited to embedded?  we shouldn't limit ourselves to that puny market :P
15:31:22 <futhin> it's puny because it's not very glamorous
15:31:41 <MrReach> the problem there, of course, is the age-old prob of getting spec in the first place
15:31:56 <futhin> people don't go "oh WOW! oh gOLLIE!! all these WONDERFUL embbedded thingies are coded in forth"
15:31:58 <futhin> huh
15:32:04 <futhin> why are we talking about specs now? heh
15:32:07 <MrReach> most companies can't write a software specification to save their lives
15:32:34 <futhin> well if that's true, why doesn't somebody start up a software specifying company? :)
15:32:35 <MrReach> sorry, I think it's a good idea
15:32:45 <futhin> and use forth tools to figure out the specs? :P
15:32:48 <MrReach> but might be a little rough in trying to implement it
15:33:04 <futhin> the collaborative idea?  it would be _hella_ rough to implement it..
15:33:16 <futhin> and i don't have a whole lot of free time :(
15:33:21 <futhin> i'm going to university and all that
15:33:24 <MrReach> heh
15:33:44 <MrReach> don't forget, you're going to university so that you can make good money
15:34:11 <futhin> bah nonsense
15:34:13 <futhin> heheh
15:34:40 <MrReach> how many forth coders do you think could be put together?
15:34:42 <futhin> i'm going to university so that i can get a degree that i can always fall back on
15:35:04 <futhin> the real money is in starting up businesses.. coming up with cool ideas and bringing them to the market
15:35:33 <MrReach> that will be a strong marketing point, "We have 163 coders waiting to do your application, call today ... 1-800-bla-blah"
15:35:39 <futhin> if i could start a business right now and make sure it succeeds and makes me money, then i wouldn't go to university.  but alas, i don't have enough business experience
15:36:00 <futhin> in that case, i expect to get 163 forth coders together :P
15:36:13 <futhin> how many forth coders are there in the world?  200?
15:36:20 <MrReach> heh, about that
15:36:49 <futhin> i guess i could get together about 4 of them initially..  maybe 10 or 20..  heh
15:36:54 <futhin> i dunno
15:37:14 <futhin> i'd have to have a really good marketing pitch to the forth coders on comp.lang.forth
15:37:39 <MrReach> you'd ahve to find someone who was REALLY good at interpreting end-user needs, and fly them out to the site to write the program specs
15:38:14 <futhin> i'd be happy with 10 to 20 forth coders.. if the system can handle that many ppl, it can handle 200  (or i'm generalising??)
15:38:18 <MrReach> more important ... making yourself attractive to corporations
15:38:46 <MrReach> the SYSTEM could handle that many, but would suggest no more than 5 per project
15:39:04 <futhin> mrreach: would you join this collaborative forth coding business?  how interesting is this to you?
15:39:22 <MrReach> sure I would
15:39:36 <futhin> do you work these days or are you just mostly retired?
15:39:38 <MrReach> but whether I stayed depends on how the work is parceled out to me
15:39:46 <MrReach> retired, atm
15:39:53 <MrReach> looking for a good project
15:40:11 <MrReach> thinking about real estate in Seattle area
15:40:21 <futhin> how do you want the work to be parceled out to you?  how should the system parcel out work fairly and to the best of the coder's ability?
15:40:40 <MrReach> sure, but how do you know that?
15:40:41 <futhin> real estate?  as an investment opportunity?
15:40:49 <MrReach> how do you know the "coder's ability"?
15:40:59 <MrReach> futhin: full time REI
15:41:20 <futhin> invest in calgary real estate :P   
15:41:40 <MrReach> hell no
15:41:41 <futhin> there's a bit of a boom in calgary
15:41:46 <futhin> heh
15:41:55 <MrReach> I'm trying to get away from the damn snow, not find more of it
15:41:59 <futhin> lol
15:42:14 <futhin> yeah, there's snow on the ground right now.. snowed last night
15:42:43 <MrReach> in fact, been thinking of moving to New Orleans or Housten
15:43:08 <futhin> i'm more interested in palo altos and the silicon valley area :)
15:43:20 <MrReach> no thanks, used to live there
15:43:31 <MrReach> it's actually very pleasant place
15:43:52 <MrReach> but the RE market is *SO* inflated that people are bailing
15:43:53 <futhin> what's wrong with it?
15:43:55 <futhin> heh
15:43:57 <futhin> ah i see
15:44:03 <futhin> yeah true
15:44:07 <MrReach> there actually more IT work to be had in Housten now
15:44:25 <MrReach> and Seattle, for that matter
15:44:36 <futhin> which is the bigger city?
15:44:44 <MrReach> but M$ kinda slews the statistics for that area
15:44:52 <futhin> heh
15:44:55 <MrReach> Housten if physically bigger
15:45:02 <MrReach> not sure about population
15:45:04 <futhin> i'd go with the smaller city (in terms of population)
15:45:26 <futhin> calgary is like 900,000  which is good enough for me
15:45:27 <MrReach> I like Seattle for the sheer beauty of the pacific northwest
15:45:58 <MrReach> but haven't been to Housten, yet, so can't compare
15:46:08 <futhin> so..
15:46:19 <futhin> you said it depends on how the jobs are parceled out to you.. what did you mean?
15:46:27 <futhin> how do you want the jobs to be parceled out to you?
15:46:43 <MrReach> well, I don't have a whole lot of Forth experience
15:47:00 <MrReach> so I'd want to be careful not to bite off more than I could chew
15:47:14 <futhin> yeah
15:47:30 <futhin> what about boring forth jobs? :)
15:47:40 <MrReach> for example, what EXACTLY would my portion of a given project be?
15:47:56 <MrReach> would I be writing a single word?
15:48:05 <MrReach> would I be writing a set of related words?
15:48:26 <futhin> i have no clue heh
15:48:30 <MrReach> would I be using the entire system to implement the user interface?
15:48:35 <MrReach> a portion of the interface?
15:48:56 <MrReach> you see ... these are things the coder needs to know
15:49:08 <futhin> heh, i don't know how to break up jobs in the best way.. do you? :)
15:49:09 <MrReach> and it's entirely different than what the company needs to know
15:49:22 <MrReach> yes, a little
15:49:28 <MrReach> I've got some ideas, anyway
15:50:16 <futhin> tell me :)
15:51:02 <MrReach> well, as I see it, the challenge won't be in telling the programmers what to do
15:51:21 <MrReach> but in learning from the company what they actually need the software to do
15:51:49 <futhin> hmm
15:52:10 <MrReach> most companies THINK they need *X* capabilities
15:52:20 <MrReach> and spend their time worrying about the interface
15:52:39 <futhin> interface is somewhat important.. needs to be usable heh
15:52:49 <MrReach> when they should be thinking about their business, and the specific bits of info needed to maintain that business
15:53:14 <MrReach> there are people who are experienced in interfaces ... they should be designing them
15:53:39 <MrReach> then the interface should either be rubberstamped by the company ... or rejected for specific reasons
15:55:12 <MrReach> also ... there's the idea ...
15:55:31 <futhin> swiftforth says something like "we'll produce custom applications for your company and we'll send somebody to train the staff to use the interface"  i think that's pretty lame..  the interface should be much more userfriendly and intuitive and well documented
15:55:38 <MrReach> an NDA or proprietary claim on the software adds 20% to the cost of the project
15:56:12 <MrReach> I think they meant "send somebody to teach you how to program Forth"
15:57:06 <MrReach> I've also thought about a business plan something like the various Linux distros
15:57:26 <MrReach> with the distros, the company makes the money w/ service and support
15:57:33 <MrReach> rather than on the software itself
15:58:47 <futhin> how does that idea apply to the collaborative business?
15:59:04 <MrReach> it is very similar
15:59:25 <MrReach> instead of being focused on the end-user's application
15:59:42 <MrReach> the focus is on coders trying to use the system to write applications
16:00:23 <MrReach> there wouldn't be as much overhead in parcelling out jobs ... visiting the clients, etc
16:00:39 <futhin> eh?  so the business would be supporting coders, not businesses?
16:01:30 <MrReach> when your biz plan answers the phone, the questions would be like "What type of application do you need", "What platform does it need to run on?", "What's your budget?", "How many functions do you think you need?"
16:02:04 <MrReach> with the distro type business plan, the questions are more like "What words are you trying to use?", "How are they misbehaving?"
16:02:56 <MrReach> futhin: does RedHat support the business by writing software for them?
16:02:57 <futhin> i'm more interested in my biz plan because 1) it creates jobs for forth coders 2) they get to code forth 3) it probably makes more money  :)
16:03:17 <futhin> redhat does write software for their distro
16:03:26 <MrReach> for the distro, yes
16:03:32 <MrReach> not for the companies
16:03:49 <MrReach> they choose what to write, when to write it, and how to write it
16:04:05 <MrReach> the companies give feedback by making feature requests
16:04:42 <MrReach> my plan had a major stumbling block, though
16:05:04 <MrReach> in that Forth is not commonly used right now ... so not much of a market to support in the first place
16:05:24 <futhin> i'm not really that interested in a service-type company.. it's not sexy :P
16:05:40 <MrReach> your plan would encourage Forth, mostly by obscuring it behind program specs
16:05:50 <futhin> no
16:05:58 <futhin> it's for creating jobs for forth coders..
16:06:04 <MrReach> heh
16:06:17 <futhin> and when people are actually coding forth, then forth will grow
16:06:32 <MrReach> yes, but you don't march into a company and say "How can I use forth to solve your problems?"
16:06:54 <MrReach> you march in asking, "What are the problems that need solving?"
16:07:00 <futhin> exactly!
16:07:03 <MrReach> and don't mantion Forth at all
16:07:07 <futhin> exactly!
16:07:12 <futhin> that's what i meant
16:07:21 <futhin> i would not mention forth at all 
16:07:41 <futhin> because they would be like "why not c?" and then i would be forced to char them with my flamewar tactics! :P
16:08:19 <futhin> i was thinking of not mentioning forth at all ..  it's all about custom programming.. solving people's problems
16:08:35 <MrReach> you can go heavy on the guarantees in the advertising ... Guaranteed correct, Guaranteed on time ... and use a third party escrow to hold the funds.
16:09:06 <futhin> heh
16:09:26 <futhin> now let's talk about:
16:09:41 <futhin> how do i go about starting up this company, given that my hands are full most of the time :P
16:09:59 * MrReach wrinkles up his eyebrows.
16:10:38 <futhin> i'm wondering about getting you and or i440r involved heh
16:12:31 <futhin> hmm
16:12:40 <futhin> what are you thinking? :)
16:12:49 <MrReach> brb, phone
16:25:10 <MrReach> back
16:25:29 <MrReach> well, there are some up-front costs
16:25:35 <MrReach> mostly in marketing
16:27:14 <MrReach> also in searching out people who know there shit in talking to companies about what they really need
16:27:38 <MrReach> Chuck Moore is really good at that ... cutting the crud out of applications
16:27:40 <futhin> it'll a tricky problem to actually get the collaborative universe up (especially with all the features i'm thinking heh)  and getting the forth coders together
16:28:11 <MrReach> no it won't
16:28:20 <MrReach> the tools already exist
16:28:37 <MrReach> a good CVS system and a couple of mailing lists should do it
16:28:37 <futhin> i'm talking collaborative..  not CVS
16:28:51 <futhin> something like teamwave except better and for forth coding :P
16:29:04 <MrReach> BUT there needs to be a CLEARLY defined process for handling a client, from beginning to end
16:29:25 <MrReach> no, you want to let a coder do what a coder does ... without interference
16:29:33 <MrReach> only grade his results afterwards
16:29:37 <futhin> yeah, each client gets handled by an agent
16:30:19 <MrReach> actually, I can see where extreme programming is influencing your thoughts
16:31:29 <MrReach> the process of handling the flow from client to app programmers and back is the only really novel part of your business
16:31:53 <futhin> yup
16:31:54 <MrReach> and even that is not really that new
16:32:13 <MrReach> it's just like having in-house programmers, but communication is a bit slower
16:32:24 <futhin> no that's the thing!
16:32:28 <futhin> that's why no CVS
16:32:34 <futhin> that's why a collaborative universe! 
16:32:37 <futhin> like i was talking before :P
16:32:59 <MrReach> hmmm ... voice also?
16:33:22 <MrReach> hope I can understand Speuler's accent
16:33:23 <futhin> naw
16:33:25 <futhin> no voice
16:33:38 <futhin> not that necessary
16:34:12 <MrReach> heh, and you don't have a soundcard?
16:34:53 <MrReach> generally, you want to isolate a coder while s/he is coding
16:35:13 <MrReach> it's only in HOW to code this or that where round-tables become useful
16:35:26 <futhin> yep
16:35:46 <MrReach> and pretty soon, your people won't even NEED roundtables much, except to train newbies
16:36:05 <futhin> yeah..  but there's also the extreme programming pairs aspect
16:36:06 <MrReach> now THERE is a good application for groupware
16:36:23 <futhin> what?  training newbies is a good application for groupware?
16:36:28 <MrReach> yes
16:36:36 <futhin> i suppose
16:36:37 <futhin> hmm
16:36:48 <MrReach> that is mostly what we use IRC for
16:36:53 <futhin> there's also the extreme programming pairs aspect with the collaborative thingie
16:37:02 <futhin> naw, i'm still a newbie.. irc hasn't done much for me :P
16:37:03 <MrReach> yes
16:37:14 <futhin> (especially since i'm lazy about coding.. or don't have much time for that)
16:37:50 <futhin> with extreme programming methodology you don't write up software specifications before you do the software..
16:39:55 <MrReach> you don't?
16:40:17 <MrReach> I thought the idea of extreme programming was that the specs remained malable, rather than set in stone
16:40:27 <MrReach> specs would still be required
16:40:54 <futhin> they do software storylines or something
16:42:32 <futhin> user stories
16:42:33 --- topic: set to ': CHAT enter BEGIN read type finished? UNTIL leave ;' by MrReach
16:42:50 <futhin> written on little cards
16:43:22 <MrReach> ok, will have to reread if I have much involvement ... I seemed to have forgotten most of what I knew
16:44:12 <MrReach> I'm going to go watch a video, back in an hour or so
16:44:18 --- nick: MrReach -> MrVideo
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17:25:16 <futhin> ho edrx
17:26:08 <edrx> hi futhin
17:34:08 <edrx> futhin: do you grok Tcl?
17:37:24 <futhin> nope
17:37:27 <futhin> don't know it
17:37:44 <edrx> hm
17:38:25 <edrx> I'm thinking about writing a program that will map how regions of a string are interpreted by Tcl
17:39:36 <edrx> there are only some notes right now (including a sample diagram), no code yet
17:39:39 <edrx> never mind
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20:06:16 <adu> interesting
20:06:27 <adu> who's MrVideo
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