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13:12:17 <Fare> t c n !
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13:17:34 <Speuler> g'day
13:17:40 <MrReach> hihi
13:17:49 <Speuler> hello mrbean
13:17:52 <Speuler> ahem
13:17:56 <Speuler> sorry
13:17:58 <Speuler> mrreach
13:18:05 <Speuler> lapsus freudalis
13:18:09 --- nick: MrReach -> MrBean
13:18:24 * MrBean picks his nose, the stuffs his head into a dead turkey.
13:18:25 <Speuler> a friend of mine has mrbean as nick
13:18:31 --- nick: MrBean -> MrReach
13:19:01 <Speuler> i'll ask the staff to get me a coffee
13:19:13 <MrReach> heh, you lucky bastard
13:19:19 <MrReach> I am *SO* jealous
13:20:05 <Speuler> done
13:20:11 <Speuler> machine works
13:20:22 <Speuler> (espresso machine)
13:20:33 <Speuler> just cracked another machine :)
13:21:39 <Speuler> they don't kow the passwords of their servers here ...
13:21:53 <Speuler> and the precious admin has locked them tight
13:21:58 <Speuler> previous
13:22:15 <Speuler> to the extend of doing hardware modification on the floppy drives
13:22:36 <Speuler> to keep people from floppy boot
13:23:13 <MrReach> heh
13:23:24 <MrReach> sounds like he knew what he was doing
13:23:46 <Speuler> looks like he does
13:24:02 <MrReach> god, what a job
13:24:25 <Speuler> i do enjoy it indeed
13:24:27 <MrReach> 80% of the time is sitting on your hands, all the lattes you can drink
13:24:48 <MrReach> (my ulcer would go crazy)
13:24:58 <Speuler> had a cotelette, baked with ham and cheese today
13:25:01 <MrReach> how many machines?
13:25:10 <Speuler> about 40
13:25:22 <MrReach> ok, that prob keeps you pretty busy
13:25:27 <Speuler> most of them have been cracked some months ago alreadz
13:25:39 <Speuler> (before i started here)
13:25:52 <MrReach> yes, and you can always do a fresh install
13:25:52 <Speuler> (but by me)
13:26:08 <MrReach> it's not like they contain crucial info on them
13:26:14 <Speuler> can't floppz-boot on most of them
13:26:26 <Speuler> only two machines do.
13:26:50 <Speuler> i'm sitting behind one now, just running a fresh debian
13:26:53 <MrReach> open the case,  replace the floppy/CD, do the install, remove the floppy, move on
13:27:08 <Speuler> that would be the solution, at least part of it.
13:27:16 <MrReach> now, if the BIOS is password protected, that could be much more difficult
13:27:27 <Speuler> need to clear nonvolatile RAM too
13:27:30 <MrReach> you'd be screwed
13:27:41 <Speuler> no.
13:27:55 <Speuler> either jumper to clear, or battery off
13:28:01 <MrReach> oh? the mbs have the kumper pins to clear nvram?
13:28:18 <Speuler> the last machine i did had a jumper
13:28:36 <MrReach> battery off might not do it anymore ... most newer boards are EEPROM or FlashRAM(tm)
13:29:14 <Speuler> there are also lists of default passwords for many bios
13:29:15 <MrReach> hey, um, how up are you on copyright law?
13:29:34 <Speuler> last reading i was doing was about copyleft
13:30:02 <Speuler> i'm not too good at legalities
13:30:12 <MrReach> I've grown fond of the object system that comes with Swiftforth ... can I duplicate the interface as open-source project?
13:30:28 <Speuler> i *think* you can
13:31:02 <MrReach> I should prob send an e-mail to Forth Inc. asking
13:31:14 <Speuler> it is going to be a cleanroom implementation anyway
13:31:22 <Speuler> good idea
13:31:27 <MrReach> cleanroom?
13:31:28 <Speuler> maybe they hire you
13:31:41 <MrReach> heh, not really looking for a job right now
13:31:59 <Speuler> you"re on pension right now ?
13:32:08 <MrReach> although I wouldn't mind hanging out with Elizebeth Rather ... she is a good conversationalist
13:32:27 <MrReach> no, have some money
13:32:40 <Speuler> brb
13:32:44 <Fare> have you met her?
13:32:51 <MrReach> not in person, no
13:32:57 <MrReach> e-mail
13:33:21 <MrReach> actually, I'm looking for a good project right now
13:33:28 <Fare> MrReach: what are your current computer projects?
13:33:44 <MrReach> right now, I'm only building a light/sound machine
13:34:22 <Fare> anyone here knowledgeable in e-gold?
13:34:32 <MrReach> heh, never heard of it
13:34:35 <MrReach> what does it do?
13:37:20 <Fare> it's an electronic currency fully backed with gold
13:37:31 <MrReach> oh, cool
13:37:45 <MrReach> that's a brilliant idea!
13:38:04 <Fare> it has no inflation, but slight guard rates and transaction costs.
13:38:06 <MrReach> gold is not a good standard, but there are *SO* many people who want it back
13:38:22 <Fare> gold is not a good standard, but it's MUCH better than what we've got.
13:38:47 <MrReach> how well does it interact with Visa/Mastercard?
13:39:39 <MrReach> actually, if it becomes popular, it will be an extremely lucrative investment ... the demand would cause the price of gold to rise substantially
13:39:51 <Fare> MrReach: well, IT doesn't, but many independent exchangers will accept Visa/Mastercard and exchange money for e-gold, at a price.
13:40:09 <Fare> the e-gold system itself mostly doesn't do any exchange.
13:40:18 <MrReach> indeed, and Visa/MC refuse to participate so far?
13:40:26 <Fare> they are independent from any merchant, which makes it safer.
13:40:33 <MrReach> yes, of course
13:40:38 <MrReach> wish I'd thought of it
13:40:44 <MrReach> such a SIMPLE idea
13:40:52 <Fare> :)
13:41:15 <MrReach> the prob is that it needs to be widely accepted
13:41:27 <Fare> not forcibly.
13:41:35 <MrReach> if the existing clearing houses won't handle the transactions, it's not worth much
13:41:45 <MrReach> forcibly?
13:42:10 <Fare> since there are use and guard fees, they can survive forever.
13:42:20 <Fare> competition will help keep those fees low.
13:42:25 <MrReach> who can?
13:42:30 <Fare> e-gold.
13:42:35 <MrReach> ah! ok
13:42:37 <Fare> it's a profitable business.
13:42:43 <MrReach> not neccessarily
13:42:59 <Fare> well, I've heard it was.
13:43:08 <MrReach> there must be enough transactions happening to provide for expenses w/o fleecing the users
13:43:14 <Fare> on the other hand, being an e-gold merchant might or not be profitable.
13:43:33 <MrReach> what is "e-g merchant"?
13:43:50 <Fare> a merchant using e-gold as a payment system.
13:43:56 <MrReach> ok
13:44:15 <Fare> That said, VISA/MC, AMEX, PayPal, and other systems are so lame, that e-gold is still interesting.
13:44:24 <MrReach> my businesses usually accept V/MC ... for the convenience of the customers
13:44:34 <Fare> see http://tril.tunes.org/e-gold/links.html
13:44:42 <MrReach> plastic is much easier to use for them
13:44:53 <Fare> V/MC have bad chargeback policies, afaiheard
13:45:13 <MrReach> that is true, for the merchant
13:45:16 <MrReach> not for the user
13:45:37 <Fare> for internet shopping, e-gold is safer to the merchant.
13:45:50 <Fare> Well, bad policies mean higher prices for the customers.
13:46:06 <MrReach> no, the policies aren't bad, they are harsh
13:46:24 <MrReach> and that is because the comps can't afford liability for card theft
13:46:50 <MrReach> so, if you're a high-risk business, you're looking at 18% transaction fee
13:47:17 <MrReach> (900 numbers, risky subscription services, etc)
13:47:33 <Fare> 18% ? Just for the payment system? Wow!
13:47:34 <MrReach> better businesses can expect 5-8% fees
13:47:45 <Speuler> sorrz.
13:47:47 <Speuler> sorry
13:47:54 <MrReach> not to worry, Speuler
13:47:54 <Speuler> i was just talking to mrbean
13:47:58 <MrReach> heh
13:48:07 <Speuler> talkd
13:48:09 <Fare> well, e-gold can help you save on those transaction fees -- it's debit, not credit.
13:48:34 <MrReach> Fare: why do you mention e-gold in the first place?
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13:51:13 <Fare> I'm variously interested in the thing.
13:51:20 <Fare> And trying to push it, too.
13:51:29 <MrReach> I wish I had thought of it
13:51:34 <Fare> was looking for a good service to exchange between e-gold and e-silver.
13:51:42 <Fare> MrReach: it's never too late.
13:51:56 <MrReach> what? to compete with them?
13:52:01 <MrReach> no thanks
13:52:07 <Fare> :)
13:52:15 <Fare> or to use it. Or find ways to develop the concept.
13:52:33 <MrReach> hmmm ... I might setup an internet echange system, though, if there aren't already too many of them
13:52:58 <Fare> I don't know about "too" many, but there are many.
13:53:14 <Fare> Friends of mine consider building one in France, but the socialist government scares us.
13:53:28 * MrReach nods.
13:54:27 <MrReach> the reserves being in Zurich, London, and elsewhere should provide pretty good protection
13:54:48 <MrReach> what is the medium of transaction? acct#/passoword? plastic card?
13:54:48 <Fare> e-gold has reserves in London and Dubai.
13:55:14 <Fare> MrReach: e-gold has acct#/password over SSL.
13:55:23 <MrReach> ok
13:56:00 <Fare> they also provide some code for merchants to use their system.
13:56:02 <MrReach> so let's pretend that I move all my liquid assets to e-gold ... I can't then go to Denny's and buy dinner with it
13:56:11 <Fare> not yet.
13:57:06 <Fare> I imagine there will some day be a market for plastic card interfaces to e-gold.
13:57:08 <MrReach> most interesting
13:57:32 <MrReach> I see that the transaction resolution appears to be .001 troy oz.
13:57:38 <Fare> But currently, they're not in the league of competing with VISA and MC on the plastic money market.
13:57:42 <MrReach> do you know what gold closed at on Friday?
13:57:55 <Fare> about $279
13:58:00 <MrReach> no, they should PARTNER with Visa/Mastercard
13:58:05 <Fare> see their exchange rates.
13:58:24 <MrReach> ok, transaction resolution of 27 cents, then?
13:58:33 <Fare> MrReach: you can still contact Visa/Mastercard and launch an e-gold competitor with them.
13:58:45 <Fare> MrReach: no, the resolution is much finer than that.
13:59:30 <MrReach> heh, 27 cents is fine with me ... I don't mind paying 13.5 cents more or less
13:59:41 <MrReach> so long is the merchant doesn't ALWAYS round up
14:00:28 <MrReach> heh, have you ever worked with Visa??
14:00:41 <MrReach> it's a nightmare company
14:01:05 <MrReach> their first assumption is "Whoever approaches us is trying to rip us off with some type of scam"
14:01:17 <MrReach> I found it more than a little insulting
14:01:22 <Fare> resolution is 1.e-6 troy oz, not 1.e-3
14:01:31 <MrReach> ah! ok
14:02:06 <MrReach> I tried to found an Internet Bank in 1996 ... they didn't want to have anything to do with it
14:02:16 <Fare> then someday they'll find a competitor.
14:02:48 <MrReach> now, of course, there's 100s of internet based transaction houses
14:02:53 <Fare> I did a technical feasibility study for an internet bank, but they didn't find the necessary funds to start.
14:03:04 <MrReach> who is "they"?
14:03:08 <Fare> s/bank/payment system/
14:03:11 <MrReach> and when was this?
14:03:24 <Fare> I think I can't tell. Yet another failed french startup.
14:03:32 <MrReach> oh, ok
14:05:14 <MrReach> the one I had envisioned wouldn't have required any capital reserves on my part
14:05:53 <MrReach> all I needed was an IP address to ask transfers from whatever account to my own corporate acct, and vice versa
14:06:17 <MrReach> (with whatever security hoops to jump through)
14:07:18 <MrReach> I would not have the policy of loaning out my accountholders deposits, like most banks
14:07:25 <Fare> the problems with electronic payment systems is more one of marketing than one of technicality
14:07:42 <Fare> which makes it sad that those who manage the marketing don't afford a decent technique.
14:07:43 <MrReach> and the distrust caused by theft
14:08:30 <Fare> trust/distrust to me is part of marketing. It requires technical solutions, but these are the easy side of the problem.
14:08:49 <MrReach> yes, perceptual problems are *MUCH* harder to correct
14:09:34 <MrReach> hmmm ... maybe I should dust off one of my shelved ideas for reevaluation
14:09:55 <MrReach> I've ahd several people tell me I should reconsider
14:18:12 <Fare> To me the problem is to find the right marketing guys -- but I'm as bad at finding marketing guys as marketing guys seem to be bad at finding technical people
14:18:32 <MrReach> heh
14:18:40 <MrReach> I see a niche there
14:18:51 <Fare> yes there is
14:20:45 <Speuler> back again, but just 2 say goodbye
14:20:54 <Speuler> seriously need some sleep
14:21:05 <MrReach> be well
14:21:06 <Speuler> it's early up tomorrow morning
14:21:15 <MrReach> pleasant dreams
14:21:17 <Speuler> still have to locate mz alarm clock
14:21:42 <Speuler> should still be in the camper somewhere
14:21:51 <Speuler> good night to u all
14:21:57 <Speuler> cu another time
14:22:11 <Speuler> &leave
14:22:17 <MrReach> heh
14:22:29 <Speuler> bloodz german kezboard lazout
14:22:42 <Fare> remap it to qwerty
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14:25:18 <MrReach> Fare: perhaps you'd like to become an expert at finding marketing people to match up to techical guys with good ideas?
14:25:31 <MrReach> heh, lots of NDAs for you!
14:26:08 <Fare> in as much as I'd like to, I have no idea where to start from
14:26:20 <Fare> Well, actually, I know a few people working in human resources
14:26:27 <MrReach> ok ...
14:26:29 <Fare> but I have no idea what I could contribute to them.
14:26:46 <Fare> (I mean, people really working and doing things with human resources)
14:26:50 <MrReach> find a group of people who do nothing but plug info into search engines
14:26:55 <Fare> maybe I should contact them?
14:27:03 <MrReach> some of them will have marketing degrees
14:27:29 <Fare> MrReach: I like the way you think, btw
14:27:35 <MrReach> make an Agreement with them that you get x% of all payments from people that you refer to them
14:28:05 <MrReach> THEN approach startup companies, or those struggling to grow ...
14:28:33 <MrReach> make sure they can handle the bandwidth, then refer them to your group of marketers
14:29:28 <MrReach> or, accept the growing companies payment, hire the marketers on a contractors piece payment system
14:29:43 <MrReach> when one of your smaller companies has grown ...
14:29:59 <MrReach> start an honest-to-goodness "campaign" for them
14:30:25 <MrReach> utilizing multiple media, ad leveraging, etc
14:30:37 <MrReach> oh? How do I think differently than other people?
14:31:19 <MrReach> (must be my exposure to Forth)
14:56:18 <Fare> yes?
14:56:50 <Fare> and often the committee would only give its go to things already implemented.
14:57:24 <MrReach> how's that again?
14:58:10 <Fare> how's what?
14:59:36 <Fare> I mostly haven't USED Java.
14:59:47 <Fare> that's a luxury I've afforded myself.
15:00:25 <MrReach> Fare: I think you're typing into the wrong channel
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15:54:51 <MrReach> hiya, edrx
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16:50:33 <edrx> hi MrReach
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17:30:49 <futhin> sup
17:30:54 <edrx> hi futhin
17:31:00 <futhin> whois edrx
17:31:02 <futhin> lol
17:31:15 <edrx> I just had an idea for an ultra-nerd pun
17:31:19 <futhin> openprojects doesn't do a idle thing or something
17:31:22 <futhin> hmm
17:31:26 <edrx> rm -rf / bin/laden
17:31:27 <futhin> what's the pun? :)
17:31:39 <edrx> the space between the / and the bin/laden
17:31:54 <edrx> it erases exerything and then says bin/laden not found
17:32:15 <futhin> heh
17:34:13 <futhin> it's not too funny to me because i am aware that bin laden was basically "created".  he was created, protected, funded by runaway NATO asset organizations at a very high level.  usa funded him partly
17:34:27 <edrx> yup
17:35:07 <edrx> now it is time to rethink things, even if thinking and US are completely incompatible
17:35:11 <futhin> the NATO organizations basically encouraged and funded terrorism for various reasons, such as getting certain prime ministers killed like Aldo Moro
17:37:15 <futhin> it's annoying when i hear people going on about how big and bad bin laden is.  he's not the root of the cause
17:37:55 <futhin> also, usa has done some pretty unethical things over east.. it's no wonder they have a poor reputation among many countries
17:41:11 <edrx> here in Brazil people are quite anti-american in most places (though several cities have quarters that try to be like little miamis)
17:41:55 <edrx> we know that if the next US war wasn't in the middle east or in the east it would be in colombia
17:42:42 <futhin> naw
17:42:50 <futhin> usa likes drugs
17:43:01 <futhin> they aren't going to attack columbia
17:44:14 <edrx> and the middle east will stand a war with much dignity... as for drugs, I don't understand the position of the US well... cocaine is well-tolerated, but crack use and traffic are punished very harshly...
17:45:27 <edrx> the line of thought of fanatical groups is much easier to understand than US's positions
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17:45:54 <edrx> futhin: where are you from?
17:45:59 <futhin> canada
17:46:06 <edrx> aaah
17:46:10 <futhin> howdy qless
17:46:16 <qless> hiya futhin
17:46:24 <qless> helllo edrx
17:46:24 <edrx> hi qless
17:46:24 <futhin> qless: you have icq?
17:46:35 <qless> yeah but i don't use it very often
17:46:43 <edrx> futhin: which city?
17:47:13 <edrx> futhin: I'm going to Montreal in january
17:48:27 <futhin> we already talked about this heh :P
17:48:30 <futhin> i'm in calgary
17:49:14 <edrx> futhin: my memory is ridiculously bad, I had a vague impression of having talked about that but I wasn't sure
17:49:25 <futhin> yeah, you talked about crashing at my place!!! :P
17:49:41 <futhin> but i said the condition was that we _only_ talk forth 
17:49:57 <futhin> does that refresh your memory ;)
17:50:12 <edrx> futhin: I talked about NOT crashing at your place, IIRC :)
17:50:16 <futhin> heheh
17:50:49 <edrx> we would switch the order of the words in english sentences to make it rpn
17:51:26 <futhin> heh
17:51:31 <futhin> that'd be a little insane 
17:52:20 <edrx> just a very silly joke
17:52:23 <futhin> i'm not fully used to rpn.. even though i'm a big time user of my hp48g calculator
17:53:11 <futhin> sometimes it's awkward..  like some of the oop syntax just seems pretty weird to use
17:54:01 <futhin> i think some of the words should be more non-rpn..  such as oop stuff like classes and structs, etc
17:54:57 <edrx> I have to go - I want to finish a program to make color html listings of the demos of my new forth-like language
17:55:52 <edrx> futhin: ...and, about that, I think that it should be easier to create words that take immediate data, like <.">...
17:56:29 <edrx> and so to write the code that parses the stuff that comes after them and build the immediate data
17:57:00 <edrx> but let's leave that to another day
17:57:09 <edrx> bye
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