00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.10.20 00:27:31 --- join: futhin (kla@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 00:27:36 heheheheheh 00:27:42 anybody alive 01:17:00 --- quit: futhin (lata) 03:11:43 --- quit: clog (Ping timeout) 03:11:43 --- log: stopped forth/01.10.20 03:11:51 --- log: started forth/01.10.20 03:11:51 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 03:11:51 --- names: list (clog MrGone nate37) 04:46:56 --- join: Fare (Fare.LISPM@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 04:51:26 --- quit: Fare (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 04:51:27 --- quit: nate37 (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 04:51:27 --- quit: MrGone (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 05:34:01 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 05:38:20 --- quit: nate37 (varley.openprojects.net merril.openprojects.net) 05:39:05 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 06:29:20 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 07:39:25 --- quit: MrGone (hogan.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net) 07:39:26 --- quit: nate37 (hogan.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net) 07:39:41 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 07:39:41 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 08:02:23 --- quit: MrGone (varley.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net) 08:02:23 --- quit: nate37 (varley.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net) 08:02:47 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 08:02:47 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 08:07:03 --- quit: MrGone (farmer.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net) 08:07:04 --- quit: nate37 (farmer.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net) 08:07:10 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 08:07:10 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 08:07:45 --- quit: MrGone (forward.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net) 08:07:45 --- quit: nate37 (forward.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net) 08:08:00 --- topic: set to '' by ChanServ 08:08:08 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 08:08:08 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 10:13:36 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.87) joined #forth 10:29:45 --- join: futhin (kla@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 10:30:00 hi 10:30:03 you there? 10:30:04 hi 10:30:07 yep 10:30:09 me there 10:30:13 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 10:30:31 woo 10:30:37 * MrReach swats nickserv for never recognizing him properly 10:30:39 lastnite was wack heh 10:30:47 what happened? 10:30:55 I remember you saying you were "out of it" 10:31:02 lol 10:31:11 that was at like 4pm or something 10:31:21 at 9 pm i went and got really really drunk then want to a club 10:31:30 and tried to pick up 2 chicks heh 10:31:55 one of them was 23 years old and i was so drunk i told her i was 19 by accident 10:32:00 I take it you were not successful? 10:32:03 when i am actually 20 10:32:09 oh well 10:32:10 and she thought i was too young lol 10:32:26 no, she prob thought you were REALLY drunk 10:33:16 i was extremely DRUNK, althought i don't think i acted too drunk heh. but what i did was chat the girls up, danced with them a little, and then said "do you want to come home with me?" heheheh 10:33:21 it's usually mental accuity and physical appearance before age 10:33:54 I had a friend in college who used to do that 10:34:11 he'd simply ask, "Want to my place and get laid?" 10:34:37 (more or less polite, depending who he was talking to) 10:35:03 it worked, generally ... he knew that if he asked 25 women, one of them was likely to say "sure" 10:35:15 heheh 10:35:31 did he say it exactly that way or was he more sublte about it? 10:35:49 like I said, sometime more subtle, sometimes more aggressive 10:36:02 hh 10:36:04 heh 10:36:05 ah 10:36:21 hmm, there's PMK on t.v right now.. popular mechanics for kids 10:36:23 it rules :P 10:36:33 heh 10:37:00 * MrReach pulls his hair and screams in fustration, "AAAARRRRGH!!" 10:37:08 eh? 10:37:12 MrReach: why? 10:37:28 I started reading XWindows programming documentation yesterday 10:37:39 and I'm STILL reading it 10:39:51 --- log: started forth/01.10.20 10:39:51 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 10:39:51 --- names: list (clog futhin edrx nate37 MrReach) 10:39:59 futhin: I doubt she really thought you were too young 10:40:09 futhin: want a case in point? 10:41:02 hmm 10:41:12 i sort of knew that 10:42:05 and i tried to convince her to come away from the dance floor so that i could talk to her and prove that i was an intelligent guy heh 10:42:11 MrReach: if I were you (and I am not) I would start at the gtk level just because so many people around know it... and then, when I had something working, I would start to add also functions for low-level access 10:42:43 ok, edrx, I haven't read about gtk yet 10:42:53 that would be at the Motif level, then? 10:43:26 futhin: I would go back to the same club a couple times a month 10:43:38 futhin: sometimes sober, sometimes tipsy 10:44:04 MrReach: sort of, I think... I'm definetly the wrong person to answer any GUI-related question, I'm a real text-mode addict 10:44:23 * MrReach laughs. 10:45:08 * MrReach closes all the XWin pages and starts opening gtk pages. 10:49:48 mrreach: what gives? what are your aims?? 10:50:19 in regards to what?? XWin? 10:50:43 the forth you are thinking of implementing. that's why you are talking about xwin right? 10:50:52 yes, correct 10:51:23 my aim is to write a forth widget set 10:51:35 MrReach: other reason why I would start with GTK is that there must be enough friendly people at the GTK dev lists, and they should be able to give some help with the debugging tools that they use... so GTK may be a friendly way to learn X, starting from medium-level stuff and then descending 10:51:37 so what is it going to be? cross-platform, gui graphics stuff, etc 10:52:02 where the same sequence of windowing commands on Windows or MacOS does EXACTLY the same thing as in XWindows 10:52:26 why did you say "widgets" ? 10:52:30 a forth widget set 10:52:48 what are you going to implement this forth in? 10:52:55 because the abstraction is neccessary to isolate from the windowing evirons 10:53:17 the forth doesn't matter ... probably start with gforth 10:54:13 the OO system actually has more design weigt than the forth 10:57:07 uh 10:57:11 a "widget" maps roughly to a window ... however, there is a bewildering number of different types of windows ... buttons, labels, popups (modal and non-modal) 10:57:13 are you implementing a forth?? 10:57:20 why were you asking about interface? 10:57:45 each of these has quite a few options, foreground color, background, background pixmap, what do do when clicked 10:58:18 I'm asking about interface because the interface is the only thing that the programmer will have to work with 10:58:33 the coding interface ? 10:58:39 the rest (in theory) should be a black box 10:58:46 yes, that is correct 10:59:22 so you are implementing a forth? :) 10:59:23 have to go 10:59:31 see ya later 10:59:34 --- part: edrx left #forth 10:59:35 futhin: not at this point 11:00:17 there are lots of good forths around 11:01:36 and I don't see much demand for a new one ... I see demand for current ones to be documented 11:02:09 but I want to be sure that I write in such a way as to be able to move my code from one forth to another with a minimum of effort 11:02:49 i see demand for current ones to have better interfaces - more userfriendly and more intuitive 11:03:20 yes, part of the reason that I want to write the gui interface 11:03:35 windowed applications are *SO* much easier to use 11:05:03 um 11:05:10 that's not really true 11:05:48 it's so true that even you would like to add pull-downs to your terminal-oriented applications 11:05:53 I dare you to deny it 11:06:06 and PLEASE don't make it usable by mouse only. i prefer to use keyboard completely. so please make it easy for that 11:06:17 heh 11:06:21 i HATE mouse 11:06:22 seriously 11:06:27 it slows me down 11:06:31 mouse and keyboard are simply input devices 11:06:58 it's up to the application programmer as to how the application responds to various events 11:07:17 mouse is slower for the most part. the only time when i see it as being really useful is working with computer graphics, making pictures, etc.. 11:07:40 the events will be provided to the application, of course, along with touch-screen, trackballs, lightpens, etc 11:08:06 but remember that the default application response to an event is to ignore it utterly 11:08:37 and the programmers has to TELL the widgets "do this when -k is pressed" 11:08:40 it's not as userfriendly if i can't use it mostly from the keyboard. if i have to keep switching from keyboard to mouse, that is not good 11:08:53 i'm talking about the coding interface 11:08:55 I understand you perfectly 11:09:24 and I'm saying that how the apps responds to keystrokes is not my responsibility 11:09:51 my responsibility is to make sure that keyboard events get reported to the application properly 11:10:36 i don't really find it true that gui interface (for the coding interface) are better than text interfaces.. it really depends on how usable it is from the keyboard and how understandable the interface is. 11:10:47 (which would be rather foolish NOT to do, btw) 11:11:10 I think you're correct in that 11:11:56 but, generally, a new user can explore the pulldowns to learn the capabilities of the program much easier than reading help screens or man pages 11:13:16 even experienced users can hunt faster for caps s/he knows is there, but forgot the keystroke for 11:14:06 then there's esoteric stuff like customisable, detached toolbars 11:14:30 yes. and that's why the plan 9 interface is so beautiful. they've got a command line at the bottom, and the menu interface. and when you go and click on something in the menu, the command shows up on the command line.. that way its REALLY easy to pick up the commands for using by keyboard because you can see it 11:15:21 hmmm ... something like the AutoCAD interface? 11:15:43 sure.. but the autocad interface is a little ugly and screwed up 11:15:55 heh, indeed 11:16:10 i've used autocad and i did use a lot of it by keyboard, but it wasn't really that well set up for that 11:16:36 but, again, the application interface is NOT my responsibility ... mine is to make window managing simple and painless 11:16:49 yes true.. but you ARE making an interface, the coding interface 11:16:56 you can't do much about the application interface 11:17:10 except maybe put in some templates that are already well designed that they can use 11:17:40 I can publish a doc ... "Application Interface Guidelines" ... or somesuch 11:17:50 yes, I can do that 11:18:03 and source code examples 11:18:51 the hardest part for Forth programmers to wrap their minds around will probably be the event driven paradigm 11:19:06 heh, why? 11:19:36 because with gui's, you depart from the linear programming sequence that so many are used to 11:19:50 instead of doing a - b - c 11:19:59 you do a only 11:20:12 b and c are done by callbacks from the widgets 11:20:34 um.. 11:20:42 hmm 11:20:57 whatever doesn't kill the forth coders will make them stronger ;) 11:21:20 mietze 11:21:50 I'm not sure whether to use the Windows paradigm or the TCL paradigm yet 11:21:57 nietze 11:22:18 what are those paradigms? 11:22:24 what's the tcl paradigm? 11:22:27 ok, in windows ... 11:22:37 you do your setup code 11:23:18 and then you enter the "event loop" ... BEGIN GetEvent CASE ... ENDCASE 0 UNTIL 11:23:55 mouse and keyboard events are reported as events in the event que 11:24:16 (as well as menu choices, button clicks, etc) 11:24:39 in TCL you run your setup code 11:24:54 and then wait on a variable to change 11:25:10 all interactions occur through callbacks that you specify 11:25:30 i.e. the actual event loop is hidden from the programmer 11:26:14 ooh, sounds like fun 11:26:19 but would it annoy the forth coders? 11:26:34 because it is not the usual way of doing things 11:26:43 no 11:26:49 and it takes a bit of getting used to 11:27:02 would it annoy the forth coders by preventing them from getting the control over the program they want? 11:27:20 hmmm ... not neccessarily 11:27:26 would the tcl paradigm limit the control over the program for the coders? 11:27:37 the idea is to allow tem to bind a callback to ANY event 11:28:14 not the program, but it SHOULD limit the interaction with the actuall display 11:28:26 i think the tcl paradigm sounds fun but you shouldn't prevent them from attaining full control over the program 11:29:28 I don't think it will, really 11:29:38 ok then it sound fine to me :) 11:29:47 the tcl paradigm sounds cooler 11:29:52 although not all features of the windowing environment may be present, especially in initial releases 11:31:00 to me, the fewer words needed and the simpler the syntax, the more effective my interface will be 11:31:22 so I'm leaning towards TCL paradim at present, although it will prob have more overhead 11:32:30 hmmm ... I could even abstract away the variable in the wait command 11:32:44 simplifying even more the TCL method 11:33:08 good! :P 11:33:12 simplify! 11:33:35 brb shower 11:33:44 ok 11:33:50 be careful 11:57:57 mrreach 11:58:06 you said that STC is easier for decompiling than DTC? 11:58:17 no, the other way around 11:58:35 DTC and IDC are much easier to decompile 11:58:43 ooops 11:58:49 DTC and ITC are much easier to decompile 11:59:54 ahh 12:00:31 a very primitive STC compiler can decompile its defs pretty easy 12:00:33 so why do you prefer STC over DTC? 12:00:53 but any type of optimising means that the actual code produced can be anything 12:01:09 I don't, neccessarily, but STC is MUCH faster 12:01:16 ooops ... 12:01:24 I don't, neccessarily, but optimised STC is MUCH faster 12:02:19 hmm 12:02:21 ok 12:02:27 well i'm gonna go eat 12:02:29 denny's 12:02:38 heh, eat well, might do that myself 12:02:40 need some real food in my stomach after last nite 12:02:49 heh, I bet, a bit quesy? 12:02:55 queesy? 12:03:02 a little yup 12:03:11 ok, be well 12:03:20 laters 12:03:22 --- quit: futhin (bye) 13:38:59 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 13:58:35 --- join: Speuler (schwan@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 16:05:48 --- join: Fare (Fare.LISPM@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 16:07:05 --- quit: Speuler (Ping timeout for Speuler[tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de]) 17:33:25 --- quit: Fare (3053) 19:35:26 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-227-86.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 19:55:08 anyone home? 20:06:18 --- join: futhin (kla@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 20:06:35 hello all 20:14:02 hi 20:14:18 what's happenin? 20:16:41 not much 20:22:09 i've just written an implementation of C structures, binary-compatible with C 20:22:49 * aum is still frustrated with his lack of forth experience 20:24:40 so am i 20:25:04 seems that forth is an awesome language, but i haven't done much in it :( 20:25:12 my progress seems slow and i'm a lazy bastard 20:25:40 i might've asked you before, but what forth(s) are you using? 20:25:54 gforth 20:25:59 i hear fpc is good 20:26:09 i've used win32forth and gforth so far 20:26:13 i'm still new to forth 20:26:23 do you know C ? 20:26:48 i440r has modified his fpc.. he says his version can compile 50,000 lines in a second heh 20:27:05 got a url for fpc? 20:28:34 fpc is dos 20:29:00 seems pretty userfriendly, seems better than win32forth 20:29:03 hmm just a sec 20:30:47 ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/dos/FPC/ 20:32:22 ahh - thanks 20:32:46 i'm really enjoying FICL 20:34:24 is there a website for fpc? 20:34:28 haven't tried ficl 20:34:32 no website for fpc 20:35:47 FICL has some immense strengths - it works on linux and windows, and forth progs can be compiled into one binary file, which runs by itself without needing a forth environment - whereas most forths require a forth environment 20:36:33 and, ficl makes it mindlessly easy to interface forth code to C code 20:38:17 i recommend it for overall power and convenience - http://ficl.sf.net 20:43:30 does fpc work on linux? 20:43:42 no 20:43:44 it's dos 20:43:47 but it's interesting 20:46:50 i'm very reluctant to spend time on a forth that doesn't run on windows and linux 21:35:21 heh 21:35:38 it's interesting as a learning model 21:35:41 that's all 21:35:47 i'm not using it am i? :P 21:35:56 but it really depends on the code 21:36:03 it can be portable to other forths 21:46:44 * aum is back 21:47:01 yes - other forths can be useful for learning 21:53:44 --- join: edrx (edrx@copacabana-ttyS4.inx.com.br) joined #forth 21:54:27 this channel is coming to life :) 21:54:44 ." hi, forthaholics :) " cr 21:55:14 hi aum 21:55:37 edrx: hi - do you come to #forth often? 21:56:26 yes, #forth is in my list of default channels... 21:56:31 ahhh 21:56:39 since several months, I think 21:56:45 are you new to forth, or more of an experienced hacker? 21:57:21 I've been using it on an off since I discovered it, ~1986 21:57:37 but I have never found any free *nix forth that I liked 21:57:43 so I'm now writing my own :) 21:57:49 kewl 21:57:49 and you? 21:58:14 i first tried forth in '85, but my full time job was in C, so I left it 21:58:21 just came back to forth a week ago 21:58:40 i've looked at a lot of forths, and settled on FICL 21:59:02 what's your opinion about FICL? I have never tried it 21:59:13 i love it 21:59:22 1 - it runs on windows and linux 21:59:36 2 - implements the ANS core words, plus lots of handy extensions 21:59:52 3 - piss-easy to call c funcs from forth words and vice-versa 22:00:02 4 - multitasking capability 22:00:12 (3) is very important to me 22:00:30 5 - easy to build a whole forth app into a single standalone binary file - no need for your users to install a forth environment 22:00:58 i've just implemented full support for C structures, and built it into FICL 22:01:11 wow! I want to take a look at that... 22:01:17 ficl.sf.net 22:01:43 it's got this totally kewl perl util that converts forth sources into a c source, for linking in with the binary 22:02:12 this util is for ficl? 22:02:17 yes 22:03:07 it strips comments, minimises whitespace and converts forth sources into one gimungous c string, which is then executed at startup 22:03:32 forth is so concise that the C string actually doesn't need to be too big 22:03:43 and i'm tempted to build in compression into that 22:05:01 it's even got OOP support, if that's your thing 22:05:14 * aum tends to avoid OOP wherever possible 22:05:46 my C struct extensions are at http://freenet.org.nz/fn/forth 22:05:56 dislike oop? 22:06:35 i've heard bad things about oop 22:06:44 i don't dislike it too much in general, but it feels really fiddly in forth 22:06:53 it slows the code down terribly 22:06:55 heh 22:06:59 yup 22:07:14 some work needs to be done on syntax 22:07:23 for oop and other weird extensions etc 22:07:49 OOP in general can result in really unreadable code - for example, java code with n levels of overloading, full of side-effects etc - takes forever to figure out what's going on 22:08:34 ironically, OOP was meant to make code easier to work with, but in the wrong hands can have the opposite effect 22:09:19 i was thinking that there should be a new forth style where the constants, variables, words, etc are all distinguished so that you know when something is a constant or a word.. 22:10:02 wow, I didn't knew that the freebsd bootloader was based on ficl... 22:10:21 ficl is pretty underrated imo 22:10:47 it is the only forth that meets my criteria, and it's proving piss-easy to customise to my needs 22:11:11 hopefully, in a few more weeks, i'll be more productive in ficl than i am presently programming in C 22:11:43 that's my impression of forth - painful learning curve, but tremendous programming leverage for those who persist with it 22:12:10 it's a good way to get rid of all the weenies ;) 22:12:39 edrx: if you're building ficl for linux, i recommend 'make clean; make ficl' which will statically link a single binary - 'make' by itself builds a shared library 22:13:15 hmm, i'm gonna go to bed 22:13:22 but ficl sounds pretty interesting 22:13:23 aum: I'll try it... the DOS-based forths that I used were difficult to learn, but after I know enough I could program things very quickly 22:13:34 so i'll check it later 22:13:38 kewl 22:13:51 --- quit: futhin (later) 22:14:11 aum: that's why my forth-based language is meant to be trivial to learn - it bootstraps starting with a dictionary containing a single word, btw :) 22:14:33 * aum has a cerebral haemorrhage! 22:14:40 what can you do with one word? 22:15:16 aum: parse a string until a certain delimiter and execute it as Lua code 22:15:48 pardon my inexperience, but what's lua code? 22:15:55 the language is built on top of Lua - its bootstraping code has about 80 lines of code 22:17:32 I'm working on the code that will pretty-print programs using that language in coloured html 22:17:50 to make it easier to explain it for other people 22:18:14 I'm hoping to finish that today 22:19:13 aum: ah, sorry, Lua is "glue language" like Tcl, but much simpler, MUCH faster (8 or 10 times faster than Perl or Python) 22:19:40 got a url for lua? 22:20:01 www.lua.org 22:20:04 do you use debian? 22:20:11 on and off 22:20:22 currently using mandrake 8.0 22:20:48 I'm one of the people who made packages of it for debian, and mine is the one that has the most add-ons 22:21:37 like functions for regexps, bit operations and dynamic loading, instructions for compiling the package on other distros, and a version of the reference manual in info format 22:23:04 ok 22:23:35 http://angg.twu.net//lua-4.0/README.other.html 22:46:59 gotta go - night 22:47:14 night 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.10.20