00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.10.14 00:32:06 --- quit: futhin (bed) 02:37:26 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-222-217.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:55:08 --- quit: aum () 06:27:45 --- quit: MrGone (Read error to MrGone[209.181.43.190]: Connection reset by peer) 06:29:17 --- join: MrGone (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 08:50:28 --- join: Speuler (schwan@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 08:50:39 --- part: Speuler left #forth 09:07:03 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 09:51:35 --- join: Speuler (schwan@tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 09:51:40 hi again 09:51:59 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 09:52:04 hihi 09:52:16 hi mrreach 09:52:30 how goes ? 09:52:39 pretty good, actually 09:52:45 how's life treating you? 09:53:07 was very lucky again 09:53:18 how so? avoid a citation? 09:53:34 you know that i'm living on a camping site rite now ? 09:53:41 no, I didn't 09:53:50 for the projet in münchen 09:53:57 I knew you were in a temp location, but didn't realize it was THAT temp 09:54:12 which was meant to be 3 months, starting in june, i didn't see the need to find me a flat 09:54:28 heh, getting cold? 09:54:35 but i'm on the second project now 09:54:51 end of the months, the camping site closes 09:55:06 I take it you found a suitable flat w/o looking? 09:55:12 flats are very difficult te get in münchen 09:55:20 no, the flat found me 09:55:29 aah, yes 09:55:33 w/o looking 09:55:44 got the key already 09:55:50 no pay :) 09:56:15 oh! cool! 09:56:23 that certainly makes things convenient 09:56:29 just a few days ago, i told somebody, while discussing the flat problem, that i'm going to rely on my luck again 09:56:39 .. and here it comes ... 09:56:58 (i got free internet too) 09:57:02 (free food) 09:57:06 (free drinks) 09:57:13 what the hell? 09:57:17 and future project prospects 09:57:39 you know what i did for that ? 09:57:46 no, please tell me 09:57:54 cracking a few passwords 09:58:03 heh 09:58:16 somebodies sysadmin quit suddenly? 09:58:18 oh, the other way around. i first cracked them 09:58:47 and, when i found there was the manager's password too, i went to him, adn advised him to choose a stronger password 09:59:01 looks like he liked that 09:59:15 he runs several internet cafes 09:59:23 and i'm the admin now 09:59:24 ah! 09:59:29 congrats! 09:59:37 that would be a nice job to have 09:59:46 get to meet all kinds of interesting people 09:59:52 i'm at work right now :) 10:00:02 preparing to install debian 10:00:16 debian is your favorite? 10:00:25 (had to hack the root password first) 10:00:30 yes it is 10:00:47 they do run linux already 10:00:49 suse 10:00:54 old version 10:00:56 6.3 10:01:00 you don't care for Suse? 10:01:09 i prefer debian 10:01:17 why is that? 10:01:20 apt is so much better than yast 10:01:24 security is better 10:01:27 ok 10:01:45 system setup is much cleaner 10:02:05 base system is 40% size of suse base system 10:02:17 i can easily install it from the net 10:02:23 will give debian a try ... I'm getting ready to do a clean reinstall 10:02:37 security fixes get available quickly 10:02:47 get 6 disk images 10:02:58 (or 2 with standard hardware) 10:03:03 install from the net 10:03:07 ok, will do that 10:03:15 get rescue.bin and root.bin 10:03:24 I had intended to install from net and boot floppy 10:03:31 (possibly driver1.bin driver2.bin driver3.bin driver4.bin) 10:03:47 (depending on your hardware) 10:04:20 I noticed that of all the distros, debian had the most recent kernels 10:04:20 new flat is half the distance to my work (the real work, that is) than the camping site 10:04:30 many developers use debian 10:04:44 you ARE lucky 10:04:46 so new stuff tends to become available for debian first 10:04:59 i was counting on being lucky 10:05:04 it always worked 10:05:34 so tht town in germany has a shortage of housing? 10:05:35 like, finding a flat i 4 hours (on a sunday mornng) the last time i came to munich ... 10:05:37 why is that? 10:06:02 they're not building a lot of new houses, but many people come to munich. 10:06:14 why not building? 10:06:19 try to find a flat on manhattan island 10:06:27 no idea 10:06:44 maybe they think there are too many houses already ... 10:06:48 heh, lots of places on Manhattan, but very expensive 10:07:15 especially now, lots of people have left Manhattan 10:07:17 the rent for the camping site is about the same what i pay in the netherlands for my flat 10:07:27 yikes! 10:07:32 that's insane! 10:07:46 (but rent in the netherlands is cheap) 10:07:57 (and münchen is expensive) 10:09:01 münchen pays better than arnhem (the place i live in the netherlands) 10:09:20 I'll bet it does 10:09:29 so i have cheap rent in NL, free flat in münchen, and good pay in münchen 10:09:38 (plus the moonlighting job in the cafe) 10:10:09 with free food in cafe, and cheap food in the company, i hardly have expenses 10:10:24 certainly a good year for you 10:10:38 now i need somebody to pay the tax of my car 10:10:45 HAHAHA! 10:10:47 and insurance 10:11:00 some free shoes would be nice too 10:11:06 not that you don't have any money yourself 10:11:33 well, i managed to save some 10:11:43 I can picutre you working in a $1,200 Armani 10:11:43 i'll be able to do so now too 10:11:59 i don't wear that crap :) 10:12:06 neither do I 10:12:20 right now, i wear an 8$ jacket 10:12:36 a 80 $ shirt 10:12:45 20$ trousers 10:12:46 mine was $20, but it's leather 10:12:55 and 100$ shoes 10:13:01 ack! 10:13:08 outdoor stuff :) 10:13:16 extra light 10:13:21 most of my stuff is outdoor 10:13:35 but boots seldom get more expensive than $40 10:13:38 i do have decent outdoor gear 10:13:48 hilleberg tent 10:13:58 ortlieb paniers 10:14:01 well, I've never been able to find comfortable high-end boots 10:14:17 "new balance" walking shoes 10:14:28 even when I go out to the local air-force base and pay $200 for a pair of boots 10:14:36 used a lot during the 100 miles walk (4 days) in the place i live 10:14:53 avoiding blisters 10:15:01 yep 10:15:09 i like comfortable shoes 10:15:12 they count more than anything on the 3rd day 10:15:37 well, I finally had to buy several sets of cheap boots until find some that fit well 10:15:44 about 10% of the walkers are military 10:16:07 but then they don't breath well 10:16:21 suede 10:16:30 * MrReach nods 10:16:35 nubuck 10:16:51 plastic no good 10:16:59 believe it or not, the very best boots I ever owned came from Wall-Mart (my wife bought them for me) ... and cost $15 10:17:12 but they've since worn out, and can't find them again 10:17:24 my cheap jacket comes from a similar shop 10:17:31 cheap but reasonable 10:17:50 those boots were awesome 10:17:53 (actually, i swapped it against some liters of yoghurt) 10:17:57 should have bought 10 pair 10:19:34 i'll get me something to eat, then i'll shut down the machine to start the debian install. i might come back on another machine oncethe installation is in progress 10:19:46 1. install food 10:19:49 2. install debian 10:20:18 heh, ok 10:20:20 will become diskless x workstations 10:20:20 be well 10:20:32 need to setup a bootp server 10:20:39 they've got the fancy network cards? 10:20:54 the remote boot network cards? 10:20:55 they are going to buy x terminals 10:21:02 with nics in 10:21:19 but first, i'll use the pcs which are around anyway 10:21:34 adviced them to order the x terminals once the server runs 10:21:47 get one, see whether boot rom is compatible 10:21:51 and the rest later 10:22:16 * MrReach nods 10:22:23 incremental setup 10:22:53 bye for now. catch you later 10:23:09 ok 10:23:38 --- quit: Speuler (Read error to Speuler[tangerine.icafe.spacenet.de]: EOF from client) 10:32:33 --- join: tcn (tcn@bespin.org) joined #forth 10:36:09 --- quit: tcn (Erection reset by queer) 11:09:54 hello all 11:09:56 hmm 11:10:01 tcn left? 11:10:22 :( 11:13:21 how's it going mrreach? 11:27:07 i kinda wanted to talk to cn 11:27:09 tc 11:27:10 tcn 11:27:14 he's doing retrofroth 11:27:20 retroforth 11:27:27 ok, hello 11:28:00 : pyramid 11:28:01 dup 1 do 11:28:01 i 2 mod 1 = if 11:28:01 dup i - 2 / spaces 11:28:01 i stars 11:28:01 cr 11:28:04 then 11:28:05 loop 11:28:08 ; 11:28:16 that calls stars which basically prints stars i times 11:28:23 do you think that's efficient? 11:28:29 the code? 11:29:10 yes, compared to the amount of time spent in the tty handler 11:29:23 it looks fine, but no comments AT ALL 11:29:33 needs comments? heh 11:29:40 big time 11:29:47 also, indentation is screwed 11:30:17 yeah i haven't really figured out how i want to ident it 11:30:30 i prefer to have it like: 11:30:32 if 11:30:35 I put each flow control on a new line by itself 11:30:38 then 11:30:56 with a comment about what that flow control is about 11:31:11 11:31:24 if \ blah failed 11:31:34 11:31:44 then 11:31:52 [end] 11:32:15 i probably should factor it up even more. 11:32:17 : pyramid 11:32:25 dup 1 11:32:29 do 11:32:43 printline 11:32:50 loop ; 11:32:55 : printline 11:33:08 er 11:33:13 have i before printline 11:33:52 would using for..next or begin..while..repeat be better? 11:34:32 not really 11:34:46 I'm not really confortable with do/loop, so seldom use it 11:34:56 what do you use then? 11:34:59 but it works as well as the others 11:35:22 I would probably use begin/while/repeat or begin/until 11:35:36 and manually increment i 11:35:54 by 2, actually, because you only want the odd numbers 11:36:28 dup 1 begin 2dup >= while dup printline 2 + repeat 11:36:47 something like that, yes 11:36:58 >= is a word? 11:37:10 or => ... yes 11:37:20 ok 11:37:39 if it's not a word, it's easily implemented 11:37:50 chuck moore apparently prefers for..next because it's more efficient somehow.. 11:37:58 yes, it is 11:38:03 but not part of ANS 11:38:23 can i increment the counter inside for..next? 11:38:44 heh, which system? it's not ANS 11:38:50 so that i don't have to have an " if" 11:38:55 yes, you can, probably with some juggling 11:38:56 i'm using gforth 11:39:09 weird thing is, gforth doesn't have you might have to do something like this ... 11:39:50 : i+ ( n -- ) r> r> rot + r> r> ; 11:40:31 what does I've never seen that 11:41:08 : array 11:41:47 does> swap 2 * + ; 11:42:08 oh, the ANS words for that is CREATE 11:42:10 this is from some older book 11:43:14 : array ( n -- -- ) CREATE 2 * allot DOES> swap 2 * + ; 11:43:44 ok 11:43:45 incidently, "2 *" should be replaced with "CELLS" 11:44:21 : array ( n -- -- ) CREATE cells allot DOES> swap cells + ; 11:44:22 : cells 2 * ; ?? 11:44:45 is that what cells is defined as 11:44:53 right, on 16 bit systems : cells 2 * ; 11:44:53 or does it have something to do with 32 bit systems, etc 11:45:02 on 32 bit systems : cells 4 * ; 11:45:12 ok 11:45:23 i440r *HATES* that word 11:45:45 heh 11:45:46 why? 11:45:49 but it's the only _portable_ way to determine how large a stack item is in memory 11:45:56 he considers it "noise" 11:46:17 : i++ ( n -- ) r> r> rot + rot + r> r> ; would this be any good? 11:46:36 CELLS could be renamed to something more descriptive maybe.. 11:46:42 why two "rot +" ??? 11:47:02 i want to increment the number by 2 11:47:07 the counter 11:47:11 in a for..next 11:47:52 ok, first .... what is on the return stack is system dependant ... you might need more or fewer ">r"s and "r>"s 11:48:24 in theory ... the first r> should give you the return address from i+ 11:48:37 and the second r> sould give you I 11:49:16 in C ... i++ returns i, then post-increments it 11:49:29 so I wouldn't use i++ to increment i twice 11:51:04 also, it's not a good idea to mess with i at all, because you can't know how the system stores it 11:51:24 shouldn't it be : i+ r> r> rot 1 + r> r> ; 11:51:45 I would call that i++ 11:51:59 and then do i+ as ( n -- ) 11:52:55 : i+ ( n -- ) r> r> rot + >r >r ; 11:52:58 actually, to stay similar to C ... i++ should look like ( -- n ) 11:52:58 would that work?? 11:53:13 it might, depending on the system 11:53:27 i++ ( -- ) 11:53:39 i++ doesn't take a number or leave a number on stack 11:53:47 it just increments the counter 11:53:54 no, in C, i++ returns the previous value of i 11:54:10 no.. in c i++ increments the counter 11:54:14 eh? 11:54:20 so the forth word should be similar to prevent confusion 11:54:52 similarly ... ++i increments the counter, then returns the resulting value 11:54:58 for (i=0,i<10,i++) { cout << i ; } 11:55:08 but for stars, I wouldn't use I at all 11:55:18 i++ doesn't return any value.. 11:55:20 in c 11:55:24 yes, it does 11:55:57 when? 11:56:36 int i;i=0;printf("i is %d",i++);printf(", i is now %d",i++); 11:56:49 will print "i is 0, i is now 1" 11:57:47 many times, like in the for statement you used as an example, the return value of i++ is ignored or not used 11:57:58 hmm 11:58:10 similarly ... 11:58:22 int i;i=0;printf("i is %d",++i);printf(", i is now %d",++i); 11:58:31 will print "i is 1, i is now 2" 11:58:46 yep 11:59:15 join me on Teamwave 11:59:27 heh 12:28:29 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 12:29:59 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-222-217.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 12:30:10 hi - anyone home? 12:43:44 yep 12:43:47 i'm home 12:46:18 what do you want to talk about? :) 12:53:36 hi 12:53:48 i'm getting back into forth after a break of many years 12:54:34 looking for the best forth for linux/windows cross platform development, ease of C integration and ease of producing turnkey progs that can multitask 12:55:17 i've visited forth.org, and can see umpteen zillion forths. I'm looking seriously at FICL. 12:55:33 Do you have any opinions on what might be the best forth for my needs? 12:55:49 Also, what's the most respected and/or most widely used Forth implementation? 12:56:22 hmm 12:56:44 you might want to look at gforth 12:57:08 i've baulked a bit at gforth - the doco says nothing about how to integrate to C 12:57:11 i'm not sure about turnkey programs in gforth 12:57:34 i'm coding in gforth right now because it has sockets, etc 12:57:40 by 'turnkey' i mean a binary executable that can run under host OS, without needing any forth files 12:57:44 yeah 12:57:54 i don't know how to make a turnkey in gforth heh 12:58:03 that could be a problem 12:58:16 also, FICL has excellent support for creating words in C 12:58:18 i just started using gforth a few days ago 12:58:22 ok 12:58:25 i'm coding a mud in forth 12:58:31 so i need socket support 12:58:32 ok 12:58:51 socket support is piss-easy to add to FICL - i'm surprised the author hasn't put it in already 12:59:33 also, FICL supports compiling forth source into a single executable file, which is good for publishing software 13:00:07 it actually compiles forth sources into C source, then builds it into the executable 13:00:37 but are you very experienced with forth? 13:00:53 * aum is still very much a newbie, but enthusiastic about forth's power 13:03:32 i'm pretty new too 13:03:39 discovered in about 5 months ago 13:03:48 s/in/it 13:05:03 gforth _probably_ can generate turnkeys 13:05:36 and i think gforth can interface with the libraries and object files 13:05:51 which is pretty much the same as integrating with C i guess? 13:07:03 real forth coders think that coding forth in c is an abomination :P 13:07:22 so ficl might be evil ;) 13:07:33 :) 13:07:38 but go ahead with ficl 13:07:43 it looks good 13:07:51 what kind of coding are you going to be doing? 13:08:06 well, real forth coders probably think that writing forth for processors other than forth is evil :) 13:08:16 i'm interested in security apps 13:08:24 crypto, freenet, anonymity etc 13:08:35 hmm 13:08:35 i've authored several freenet client programs 13:08:40 cool 13:08:48 freeweb.sf.net for example 13:08:54 i've tried freenet.. it's a little weird.. kinda hard to find stuff 13:09:02 it's getting better 13:10:32 there's that weird searchkey thingie.. never works for me 13:11:48 i suppose ficl would probably be the more cross-platform forth out there 13:12:19 what i like about it is that you can create redistributable binaries that don't need the user to be aware of forth 13:12:38 it comes with this cute perl script that converts forth source files into C 13:13:02 so any words you create can be hardwired into the system vocabulary if you want 13:13:12 hmm 13:13:41 adding a system function (eg accept() or bind()) takes only about 90 secs 13:14:16 and the whole thing can be made to run without even a forth prompt or console interface 13:14:21 good for daemons 13:14:43 as for freenet, i do acknowledge its present weakness with searching 13:15:26 the thing it does best at the moment is provide an anonymous, uncensorable alternative web 13:15:35 yep 13:15:43 you can put up a website, and there's no way the website can be traced back to you 13:15:51 the problem is with transitory hosts (ppl who aren't on the internet permanently) 13:16:31 that's being overcome in the upcoming 0.5 release - everyone will be set up as a transient host unless they declare otherwise, and there'll be enough permanent hosts to sustain the network 13:17:22 do you know any other forth chat rooms, or mailing lists, or newsgroups? (I've subscribed to comp.lang.forth, but it's pretty quiet) 13:17:24 the freenet clients should come with some powerful webcrawling tools so that ppl can webcrawl and find what they need, without having to go to specific websites in order to find stuff 13:18:04 futhin: I've hacked ht://dig into such an animal - it wouldn't be too hard to turn it into a redistributable tool 13:18:10 nope, i don't know of any other forth chatrooms, etc.. if you find others let me know :) 13:18:36 mailing lists? 13:18:39 nope 13:18:55 all i know is this and clf 13:18:55 how did you find this? 13:19:03 i found this chatroom by just guessing '#forth' on openprojects.net 13:19:14 it's worked for me for many a topic 13:19:22 heh, yep 13:19:37 like, "hmm, forth developers are probably open source fans, let's try #forth" 13:21:21 i want more forth coders to hang on this chan :( 13:21:46 one of the first things i want to do with forth is build in some smart interactive vocabulary management, and make it real fast and convenient to play with word defs, then build them into libraries, then share these libraries 13:21:55 i even posted on clf saying "please join #forth" but only one person came heh 13:22:05 what's clf? 13:22:09 comp.lang.forth 13:22:15 oh - comp.lang.forth 13:22:41 i posted a question to clf, but no-one has bothered to respond 13:22:49 heh 13:22:54 what first sparked your interest in forth? 13:23:34 i first encountered a forth-like programming language called MUF (multi-user forth) on tinymuck (a mud) 13:23:37 you know what a mud is? 13:23:56 anyways, MUF was really easy to code in.. very fast and simple 13:24:03 so i learned more 13:24:25