00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.10.13 02:05:02 * aaronl is away: I'm busy 04:20:32 --- join: Fare (Fare.LISPM@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 04:30:02 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-222-217.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 04:30:12 hi - anyone home 04:30:13 ? 04:56:52 --- quit: Fare (Read error to Fare[samaris.tunes.org]: EOF from client) 05:15:36 --- quit: aum () 06:39:44 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 07:38:46 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 07:38:48 hihi 07:42:20 hihi!! 07:42:39 how is your w/e? 07:43:13 just dandy.. i'm probably going to do lots of homework and hopefully some coding on the mud 07:43:26 good 07:45:04 how about you? what are you working on in forth? 07:45:08 : MAINLOOP REPEAT KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE +BUF THEN 0 UNTIL 07:45:18 yes, timers in ms windows 07:45:36 oooops ... another typo 07:45:47 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE +BUF THEN 0 UNTIL 07:45:56 instead of CR ? 07:46:09 CR might be a command 07:46:17 is unlikely to be 07:46:22 it's just a constant 07:46:29 eh.. CR would be carriage return 07:46:33 ah 07:47:03 if you want it to be a bit more versatile ... 07:47:21 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE +BUF THEN EXIT? UNTIL 07:47:38 and forget the semicolon 07:47:40 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE +BUF THEN EXIT? UNTIL ; 07:47:52 also, this assumes one thread or process per user 07:48:03 that's a timer? 07:48:15 no, that's the mainloop of a MUD 07:48:19 heh 07:48:25 ah 07:50:28 does gforth say anything about executing mutiple threads? 07:50:39 dunno 07:50:43 haven't looked that far 07:50:43 um 07:50:49 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE +BUF THEN EXIT? UNTIL ; 07:50:52 that verstion would be 100x more efficient than one that polled for keystrokes 07:51:06 : mudloop check-listener command-parser ; 07:51:12 um 07:51:26 shouldn't mainloop be a little more modular or factored up a little more.. 07:51:37 what if i suddenly wanted to change it to a gui for example? 07:51:38 no IMO 07:51:51 none of that has to do with the gui at all 07:52:13 where does the ui come in? parse-line ? 07:52:15 well, an xwin prog would be event driven anyway 07:52:20 : parse-line ui ; ? 07:52:23 wouldn't EVEN look similar 07:52:46 : parse-line (parse code) ui ; 07:52:52 : ui color output ; 07:53:03 : color ?ansi if ansi then ; 07:53:34 oh, an idea about color commands for you ... 07:53:52 do you intend to support mutiple terminal types, and then query the terminal to see what it is? 07:55:03 well i could just leave it at plain ascii output and then when the user wants color they just turn on their color setting (and they would know if they had ansi) 07:55:21 ok, just ANSI terminal codes, then? 07:56:13 i guess.. but i suppose i could support vt100 and vt52 and ansi.. etc 07:56:26 ok, n/m then 07:56:29 what 07:56:32 what was your idea 07:57:02 was going to suggest vector tables of functions to handle various color commands 07:57:41 ANSI would have one table, vt102 another, linux another, xWin another 07:58:00 mud to xwin? heheh 07:58:05 and a table full of pointers to NOOP for non-color 07:58:43 hmm 07:59:07 how would i go about making a table? 08:00:42 CREATE ANSI 5 cells allot 08:01:06 ' ANSI-foreground ANSI 0 CELLS + ! 08:01:17 ' ANSI-background ANSI 1 CELLS + ! 08:01:26 ' ANSI-scrollreg ANSI 1 CELLS + ! 08:01:41 ' ANSI-beep ANSI 1 CELLS + ! 08:01:53 ansi-forground 0 cells?? 08:01:59 why not 1 cells? 08:01:59 ooops, didn'a adjust the index properly 08:02:03 get the idea? 08:02:11 i suppose 08:02:25 i need to learn more forth / practice more forth heh 08:02:28 0 cells because it goes right at the beginning of the table 08:02:40 so scrollreg would be 2 cells? 08:02:47 no 08:02:47 if it started at 1 cells, there would be an unused cell 08:02:50 yeah 08:02:50 ok 08:03:06 um 08:03:19 where is the ansi called if 08:03:20 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE +BUF THEN EXIT? UNTIL ; 08:03:28 that is what the mainloop is 08:03:31 yes, it should have been 0 ... 1 ... 2 ... etc 08:03:33 if that is what the mainloop is 08:03:35 but I screwed up 08:03:40 ah 08:03:51 heh :) 08:04:03 ok, the ANSI stuff would be somewhere under PARSELINE 08:04:24 and the sockets stuff? 08:04:26 under key? 08:04:33 you're right, though ... I didn't echo keystrokes ... they would be typing blind ... so ... 08:05:08 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF PARSE-LINE ELSE DUP EMIT +BUF THEN EXIT? UNTIL ; 08:05:30 heh 08:05:35 is key defined? 08:05:40 the sockets would be handled BEFORE mainloop was even called 08:05:49 yes, key is ANS 08:06:05 but you would redefine KEY to get from socket rather than from terminal 08:07:30 hmmm ... PARSE-LINE doesn't need the on TOS ... so ... 08:07:34 you mean the sockets would be initialised before mainloop? 08:07:46 : MAINLOOP BEGIN KEY DUP = IF DROP PARSE-LINE ELSE DUP EMIT +BUF THEN EXIT? UNTIL ; 08:07:49 yes, they would 08:08:13 in this situation, there would ahve to be one mainloop runing for each user 08:08:16 um.. what is ? 08:08:37 DECIMAL 10 CONSTANT 08:08:53 or is 13 = carriage return? 08:09:00 DECIMAL 13 CONSTANT 08:09:05 I think it's 13 08:09:14 yup 08:09:28 um.. how do i handle multiple ppl with one mainloop? 08:09:46 heh, that gets WAY more complicated 08:09:59 how much HD space do you have right now? 08:10:11 well i'm doing my coding on the shell 08:10:12 I'd like you to install some conferencing software 08:10:22 so that we can share a whiteboard 08:10:26 which conferencing software? 08:10:42 it's called GroupKit 08:10:45 hmm 08:10:54 i've tried netmeeting.. it was so so 08:11:00 much smaller than MS conferencing stuff 08:11:09 netmeeting was 600k 08:11:14 :) 08:11:22 oh, that's not so bad 08:11:27 but i've got plently of hd space 08:11:30 lemme get you a URL 08:15:27 http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/grouplab/developers/Groupkit/gk51.exe 08:15:35 try it ... it's neat 08:16:39 dang it ... it's refusing to start with TCL 8.3.3 08:16:41 heh.. ucalgary? 08:16:44 that's my univ 08:16:55 it was Mark Roseman's senior CS thesis 08:17:01 oh, really? 08:17:16 groupkit runs on windows right 08:17:28 and XWindows, and MacOS 08:17:43 it's not running with the latest tcl/tk though 08:17:46 so nevermind 08:18:21 well i don't have tcl 08:18:53 why don't you just get the complete thing 08:19:07 is it there, complete? 08:19:47 http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/grouplab/developers/Groupkit/tcl804.exe 08:19:53 that's the proper tcl 08:20:11 yeah 08:20:13 windows platform is broken that way 08:20:20 hmm? 08:20:41 on unix, the TCL script can start the version of tcl closest to itself ... but that doesn't work on windows 08:20:59 heh 08:21:10 um 08:21:19 so what's up, are we not going to use groupkit? 08:21:25 hmmm ... it could, I 'spose ... that would be a very useful utility 08:21:59 ok, go ahead and install the tcl and the gket app and I'll do the same 08:26:57 shit ... I think I may have given you the wrong URL 08:30:21 http://www.teamwave.com/pub/current/wpclient-431.exe 08:30:31 sorry, you want to use the commercial client 08:30:39 not the ucalg one 08:30:41 ok? 08:30:44 eh 08:30:51 what's wrong with the ucalg one? 08:31:52 the ucalg one has "open reg" and "registrar" so one of us is the registrar 08:31:56 and the other connects to it 08:32:05 it requires one of us to set up a server 08:32:29 Teamwave (the commercial version) has a demo server running 08:33:39 ok, I'm waiting for you in room "ForthMUD" 08:33:54 heh 08:46:34 hey! 08:46:37 what did you do? 08:46:46 oh 08:46:46 you just totally crashed my client! 08:46:47 i dunno 08:46:51 oops 08:46:54 are you still there? 08:46:57 yes 08:47:01 ok 08:47:04 but i accidentally closed the notepads :( 08:47:21 damn 10:12:36 gotta 10:12:37 go 10:12:40 --- quit: futhin (laters) 10:14:56 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-66-209-114.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 10:15:14 --- join: I440r (mark4@A010-0087.BLMG.splitrock.net) joined #forth 10:15:35 isforth is sorta on hold - ive not worked with it in a few months... 10:15:49 the move got in teh way and i need to get back INTO it 10:15:56 but its not abandoned 10:16:17 yeah 10:16:31 is it native-code? 10:16:38 or is it threaded or what? 10:16:45 its not native code 10:17:00 a native code compiler compiles forth source into assembler 10:17:15 its a direct threaded 10:17:44 eh 10:17:49 what's wrong with native-code? 10:17:57 why isn't isforth native-code? 10:18:07 or that would screw up the 1:1 ratio? 10:19:05 because i have no idea how to make a compiler that takes forth source and writes assembler code 10:19:16 it is a very complex problem 10:19:17 it wouldn't be a "compiler" 10:19:20 it would be interactive 10:19:25 it would be a forth implementation 10:19:33 and it would generate very inneficient code unless it also did some optimizing 10:19:38 and that WOULD kill the 1:1 10:19:50 hmm 10:20:07 besides i can see NO reason what so ever to do it 10:20:08 what's wrong with killing 1:1 at the for speed? 10:20:14 er 10:20:21 what's wrong with killing 1:1 for speed? 10:20:22 FORTH forth is very efficient space wise and speed wise 10:20:36 native-code forth would be faster than direct threaded forth 10:20:41 do some real world debugging - then you will knnow :) 10:20:49 a little 10:20:59 only a litte? 10:21:00 not enough to go to all that bother if you ask me 10:21:10 somebody said that direct threaded forth is faster in some cases than native-code 10:21:11 forth forth runs at speeds very close to pure assembler 10:21:22 and is very very space efficient 10:21:41 does forth forth run faster than c? 10:21:55 fuck yes 10:22:08 plus 10:22:32 my version of fpc can compile about 50 thousand lines of code per second 10:22:49 fpc = the dos forth? 10:22:58 c would have difficulty compiling 50 lines per second :P 10:22:59 yes 10:23:13 i have a very heavilly modified version of fpc 10:23:18 heheh 10:23:21 i stripped out ALL aliases 10:23:27 so you use fpc mostly? 10:23:33 or do you work in linux? 10:23:35 i rewrote many of the primitives 10:23:47 there is no forth for linux - yet :) 10:23:48 well 10:23:49 there is 10:23:51 but i dont like it 10:23:56 and its not free 10:24:11 the "free" forths for linux are not forths 10:24:34 they are fucked up abominations written in a crippled language (read c) - and yes clog you CAN quote me on that 10:24:36 hehe 10:25:16 heheh 10:25:48 i need to go do something, i have to log off but i will be back later and can chat then... 10:25:59 do you have a dos machine ? 10:26:02 get fpc 10:26:11 its fatand ugly but is easy to learn with 10:26:21 heh 10:26:23 bbl:) 10:26:27 did tom zimmer screw it up? 10:26:34 well 10:26:47 he coded some very obfuscated forth definitions 10:26:54 and some very fucked up assembler definitions 10:27:08 and his "value" idea is very very fucked up 10:27:10 i gtg 10:27:11 bbl 10:27:12 --- quit: I440r () 11:39:16 heh 11:39:29 everyone's a critic 11:39:40 (me included, I guess) 11:40:36 heh 11:40:37 um 11:40:44 have you ever tried colorforth? 11:40:56 nope 11:41:04 don't really intend to either 11:41:09 oh darn, i was gonna ask you what you thought about coding in it :) 11:41:23 i looked at colorforth, but it seems a little slower to code in 11:46:25 why don't you intend to try colorforth? 11:46:51 too odd to do any real systems programming 11:47:17 you see, I know that I'm going to be coding for one of the major platforms 11:47:25 so I don't mind a big forth 11:47:44 it's more important to me to have good tools than a thin forth 11:48:49 yeah 11:48:58 but eventually there might be colorforth for linux, windows, etc 11:49:16 although it's a little weird in terms of color 11:49:37 i think it should be default as using different fonts to differentiate 11:49:45 like italic, bold, underline, etc 11:50:55 mrreach: you said you are working on a major project right now.. what is it? 11:50:57 heh 11:51:03 i seem to have forgotten 11:51:14 or i never knew heh 11:51:14 it's a light/sound self hypnosis machine 11:51:19 I never said 11:51:22 heheh 11:51:27 yeah you didn't 11:51:34 cool 11:52:03 what is the hypnosis machine for? to sell and make money? 11:52:10 or for fun? 11:52:28 for fun ... self improvement 11:54:15 hmm.. i've read up a lot on hypnosis, but i've never really done anything with it 11:54:30 I have a talent for it 11:54:39 it's remarkable how malable perspective is 11:54:54 yeah 11:55:02 and also how much of a difference a minor change in perspective can make 11:55:13 you have a talent for hyposying yourself or others? 11:55:20 hypnosying 11:55:27 hypnosisying heh 11:55:28 hypnotising 11:55:30 others 11:55:31 ah 11:55:43 I can never make suggestions to myself "stick" 11:55:46 hence the machine 11:55:51 hmm 11:56:07 do you hypnotise people and then be like "take off your clothes" ? ;) 11:56:18 heh, not normally 11:56:21 I have 11:56:25 heh 11:56:26 I'm fun at parties 11:56:58 it's more fun to make the person think they are naked when they really aren't 11:57:10 it is possible to get people to take off their clothes, etc right? 11:57:14 or to make appear to them that everyone around them is naked 11:57:21 heh 11:57:34 yes, it is possible 11:58:31 I asked my brother-in-law once, "What do you think about hypnosis?" 11:58:34 well there's a lot of stuff said "hypnotisation doesn't make people do things they wouldn't want to do" but i think they are just saying that in order to prevent people from freaking out.. 11:58:42 he replied "I won't have anything to do with it" 11:58:46 I asked why 11:59:13 he replied, "Because, from what I can tell, you can pretty much make someone do anything you want." 11:59:38 now, in my opinion ... 12:00:06 I haven't come across someone who is a "good" sugject reject a suggestion ... no matter how inconventient 12:00:26 no matter how embarrassing or inconvenient 12:00:31 heh 12:00:39 but I've never given a REALLY objectionable suggestion 12:00:49 like killing someone or eating shit 12:01:11 so I don't know for certain where the limits are 12:01:28 I only know that the limits are beyond my own ethical limitations 12:01:46 yeah 12:02:18 how would you hypnotise a deaf person? :) 12:02:30 or hard of hearing 12:02:31 incidently, people are grateful for the session even when I have them do something goofy 12:02:47 hmmm ... hadn't really thought about it 12:02:52 I don't know 12:03:13 can you hypnotise people with their eyes open? 12:03:15 the light/sound machine could do it 12:03:19 yes 12:03:41 I haven't done so, but closed eyes are not a prerequisite 12:03:57 i'm hard of hearing (caught meningitis when 2) so i'm interested in whether i'm hypnotisable 12:04:12 in fact, light to medium hypnosis often occurs while watching TV or driving 12:04:36 hmmm ... how interesting 12:04:36 or staring at the computer all day ;) 12:04:44 * MrReach nods. 12:04:54 yes, you are 12:05:08 yesterday i was pretty zoned out because i was playing around on the shell account getting gforth working 12:05:12 although conventional techniques probably wouldn't be very effective 12:05:35 can you converse with people? 12:05:39 yes 12:06:00 then conventional techniques can work for you 12:06:14 although the hypnotist will have to get used to yelling 12:06:14 i've got pretty severe hearing, but i've never copped out by learning signing.. i just lip read about 70 to 80% and hear the rest 12:06:18 no 12:06:20 no yelling :) 12:06:23 it's lipreading 12:06:27 ah! 12:06:45 if somebody speaks clearly and enunciates and moves their lips well, i can understand them without too much trouble 12:06:53 heh, I usually have someone imagine a serene, relaxing environment 12:07:06 i use sound to supplement the lipreading 12:07:28 yeah, you couldn't do the serene relaxing environment while shouting ;) 12:07:38 no, but you could 12:07:45 yeah 12:07:47 heh 12:08:05 what an odd scene that would be 12:08:33 YOU ARE IN THE MEADOWS AND ALL IS QUIET!!! :P 12:08:59 i kind of think that i wouldn't be a very suggestable subject 12:09:21 i think too much ;) 12:10:04 * MrReach grins, "Of course." 12:10:24 I need to go take a shower 12:10:28 bbiab 12:10:31 k 12:10:35 --- nick: MrReach -> MrShower 12:18:27 --- join: Speuler (schwan@ns.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 12:18:41 g'day 12:39:45 --- nick: MrShower -> MrClean 12:40:01 --- nick: MrClean -> MrReach 12:40:06 hihi! 12:51:27 hi mrreach 12:51:31 g'devening 12:57:01 --- part: Speuler left #forth 12:57:11 --- join: Speuler (schwan@ns.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 12:57:33 hi mrreach 13:00:55 --- part: Speuler left #forth 13:10:46 * aaronl is back (gone 11:05:43) 13:10:59 hihi aaronl 13:12:44 hmm 13:12:52 i guess i should go.. 13:12:55 or something 13:12:57 bwahahaha 13:13:01 --- part: aaronl left #forth 13:13:08 i should do my homework but i'm a bit of a procrastinator 13:17:13 oka 13:17:15 okay 13:17:28 i'm going to go, i'm all weird today 13:17:38 --- quit: futhin (byebye) 13:27:16 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.26) joined #forth 13:47:26 --- quit: edrx (Ping timeout for edrx[200.240.18.26]) 13:50:21 --- join: Fare (Fare.LISPM@samaris.tunes.org) joined #forth 15:14:33 --- join: qless (qless@clgr000977.hs.telusplanet.net) joined #forth 15:24:41 --- join: aum (aum@210-54-222-217.adsl.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth 15:24:51 hi - anyone there? 15:24:55 hello aum 15:25:02 ah - hi qless 15:25:20 hows it going? 15:25:23 * aum is looking to get back into forth after a break of many years 15:25:31 oh cool 15:26:14 i develop on linux and windows, and need first to find the most useful forth compiler 15:26:43 i've had a real quick look at gForth, kForth and pForth 15:27:17 qless - what are your thoughts? what forth(s) do you use? 15:28:05 i am doing my own forth, but i like how gforth is put together, i like bigforth's interface to shared libs 15:28:31 then there's win32forth which is public domain 15:28:51 one thing I need is ease of interface to standard c libs, and my own c libs 15:29:08 gforth seems to have no doco about interfacing to c libs 15:29:17 ie calling c funcs from forth words 15:29:55 http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/bigforth.html 15:30:06 another need is portability - the c libs i write are multiplatform 15:30:14 hmmmm 15:30:51 looking at bigForth... 15:31:15 is it hard to call my own c funcs from bigForth? 15:31:41 i don't think so, because some of the examples call mesa and xlibs and things like that 15:32:10 ok - kewl 15:32:37