00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.08.19 12:42:53 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-89-27.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 13:29:09 --- nick: adu -> adu-gone 13:37:14 --- nick: adu-gone -> adu 14:01:19 * aaronl is away: lunch 14:08:23 * aaronl is back (gone 00:07:04) 15:27:15 --- nick: adu -> adu-gone 17:40:17 --- nick: adu-gone -> adu 18:31:06 --- join: jmck (jmck711@host-216-77-204-191.sua.bellsouth.net) joined #forth 18:39:31 --- nick: adu -> adu-reading-|-MsgForAttn 18:46:16 --- join: geakazoid (JB@adsl-63-206-89-102.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:46:27 hello out there 18:47:56 --- nick: adu-reading-|-MsgForAttn -> adu 18:48:07 hello are you a bot? 18:48:39 hello 18:48:57 aha there is a human in here 18:49:07 i human? i'm afraid not 18:49:16 oh a semi-human? 18:49:41 i'm from what you would call 'the gutter' 18:49:53 its another dimension, and its very hard to find 18:50:02 some people say that its right here among us 18:50:07 ..... whos knows 18:50:32 do you like forth? 18:51:09 adu well I am enjoying it very much... I just received a copy of Swiftforth 18:51:22 whats that? a free distro? 18:51:39 * adu 's room is soooo messy 18:51:42 adu no it is not free www.forth.inc 18:51:48 o 18:52:12 what arch is it for? 18:52:14 adu I had asked a professional forther about using it or win32forth and he said to get it 18:52:31 i like bigforth and gforth 18:52:41 adu well it is for Windows programming. I have a linux too but most of my clients have Windows 18:53:07 ah ic 18:53:13 ic = i see 18:53:21 adu well, I was at the SVFIG yesterday from 10-6PM and it seems that one of the forthers who did not know linux so much had a hard time with gforth 18:53:24 you might be instested in my language 18:53:45 adu well, that depends, I am doing multimedia imaging and sound processing 18:53:48 oic hmm 18:53:58 i n/m 18:54:05 mine's in development stages 18:54:11 adu I wanted an extensible language that I could use on any machine. Forth fit that bill 18:54:27 Lisp does also... 18:54:28 adu what is it called and is it on a website? 18:54:34 its called Op 18:54:41 and its based on Forth/Lisp/ML 18:54:49 adu there are a lot of Lispers out there who can do their own thing and I notice that they do 18:54:57 homepage.mac.com/andrewrobbins/lang.html 18:55:01 adu what is it for? 18:55:04 the doc is still in prealpha stages 18:55:11 general programming 18:55:22 adu is it for mac? 18:55:46 no i'm having it be interpreted initially 18:56:03 adu initially for what? 18:56:04 but i'm designing it to be much easier to compile than Lisp 18:56:18 initially for general programming 18:56:32 i'm going to test it with an interface to SDL, but thats all 18:56:55 adu what is to be used for, what kind of applications? 18:57:00 everything 18:57:11 adu what platform do you use right now? 18:57:21 mac/ppclinux 18:58:40 adu well, maybe your language might work for you. At the SVFIG this unix guy talked about the system calls on unix and said that you can write forth calls to them and then you could do whatever you wanted from there 18:58:42 its going to have an excelent macro facility, i'm basing it on a combination between Lisp/Scheme macros, META, and Awk 18:59:20 its hard building Haskell/ML style evaluation in forth 19:00:11 adu I would not know. All I know is that spent three years learning linux and could not write a decent application 19:00:26 thats not linux's fault 19:00:27 adu because I spent all that time learning linux 19:00:49 ML has nothing to do with linux 19:00:52 adu well it is a nice machine to learn on, I still use it occasionally, but for an end user it is a nightmare 19:01:21 adu windows in not better... dare I say 19:01:24 heh i know many End Users that enjoy Linux over any GUI-only machine 19:01:52 adu yes, but they are probably not people who don't have time to learn 19:01:57 like my mom 19:01:59 hehe 19:02:09 she's not even tried MacOSX yet 19:02:21 and i've been working with that for a long time before i went back to linux 19:02:23 adu well that is because it is expensive 19:02:35 Linux messed up some boot vars, so MacOSX won't work now 19:02:55 no thats no excuse, i bought it with my own money 19:03:01 and still she hasn't tried it 19:03:19 adu on intel one needs only do a /mbr which clears the master boot record... my machines dual boot 19:03:35 adu MacOS is a NeXT Unix variant 19:03:41 macs are more complicated 19:03:52 no MacOS _X_ is a NeXT Unix variant 19:03:57 _NOT_ macos 19:04:02 adu that is because they are in the midst up switching core code 19:04:28 not really they've kept both OpenStep and MacToolbox routines 19:05:10 adu but there is a big change between last Millenium's MacOS 9 and this one's 10 19:06:21 adu and I bet you may not know that the MacOS ten boots from forth code 19:06:52 actually i did 19:06:56 adu ok 19:06:58 its OpenFirmware 19:07:01 adu 19:07:07 and thats the boot vars that were messed up 19:07:25 i've reset all the normal ones, like load-base boot-device and boot-command 19:07:31 but it must have done something else 19:07:37 and i'm trying to see what it did 19:07:47 adu there is some way to dual boot between MacOS 10 and whatever because I saw a demonstration of it last month 19:07:51 so now at least it boots into os9 without much fuss 19:08:10 if you hold the Opt key it boots into os9 if its set to boot osx 19:08:25 but thats annoying so i just reset them until i get it to work 19:08:59 and i can only seem to get into linux with BootX, a startup MacOS9 app that resters into Linux 19:09:22 adu this guy who demoed it had it dual booting between MacOS 9, 10 and something else 19:09:23 so i thought that the boot floppy would know howto do it right, but apparently now 19:09:24 not 19:10:01 ya i've heard ppl getting ofw to tripple boot, but i havn't gotten it to work yet 19:10:04 adu it does not boot from the floppy if I recall the demo. This guy from Apple came to the SVFIG to demonstrate MacOS and talk about Open Firmware 19:10:24 whats SVFIG? 19:10:45 Silicon Valley Forth Interest Group in www.fig.org 19:10:46 actually i was introduced to Forth thru ofw 19:10:55 what is ofw? 19:10:58 o ok 19:11:03 ofw = OpenFirmware 19:11:27 adu oic... never heard it said like that hahaha 19:11:41 some ppl call it of, but thats too confusing 19:12:22 adu well apparently there is a reason Apple is using it. I have heard that BIOS is not as useful 19:13:42 adu anyway, yesterday the SVFIG had presentations about writing forth to the system calls of unices and you might have been interested in that because it was also mentioned that gforth is not written in forth but could be optimized if it was 19:14:15 interesting 19:15:17 adu use a c2forth and look for the system calls and you could tie that into your project 19:16:23 ok 19:22:14 adu are you there still? 19:22:19 yes 19:22:50 i'm sure i'll try and optimize it as much as possible 19:23:15 adu here was another interesting tidbit: this one guy is a forth consultant and was doing work on a factory that makes linen or something like that 19:24:01 He said that forth had been used to program the entire factory of all these mechanical robotic type processes which he seemed to be amazed at seeing 19:24:13 adu and the machines were 486s 19:24:44 woah 19:27:16 thats pretty cool 19:27:39 adu yea, basically they needed some support. Another guy was making fun of how some of these huge factories don't know what is wrong with their equipment because it has been so long since they had a programmer and they just need coding changes 19:28:04 adu another guy was talking about his project for wearable computers 19:29:38 adu the thing they emphasize about forth is that you can build a customizable and extensible toolkit then you are practically inventing your language because you are designing new words 19:30:17 ya i know 19:30:32 the same is true with every language 19:30:38 forth just has a unified syntax 19:31:26 adu yes, but the unifed syntaz is super extensible, so you can rewrite everything down to the kernel 19:31:31 i could argue that by making a function in C i'm making a new language 19:31:43 adu that might be called perl 19:31:53 heh 19:32:07 you can do the same in Lisp 19:32:22 the ONLY thing i like about forth is its stack-based nature 19:33:13 adu ok, so what is special about the stack-base nature? 19:33:44 its much more user-friendly, and more controlable than the function-argument based programming 19:34:24 if you wanted a value to be compared twice, instead of having to assign it to a variable, you just dup and compare twice 19:34:41 or if you wanted to use it in two calculations 19:34:52 adu that is what I think, I have been working on designing a multimedia application for years and it take forever to figure out how it would work in C, C++, Obj C 19:35:13 ObjC isn't anything new 19:35:30 its just a close-to-divore mairrage between C and Smalltalk =) 19:35:36 adu Dr. Ting at the SVFIG was comparing it dropping the nouns out of the language. 19:35:46 nouns? 19:35:52 like variables? 19:36:33 adu yes, when I was at Borland, a mentor there said, "Programming is English. You have verbs and nouns, and etc..." 19:37:27 adu well, in English, I am a (pro)noun and you are too. We (pronoun) are(verb) verbs. 19:38:36 adu have you ever lisended to someone say, "I" too much? They have to keep pointing to themselves. 19:39:40 um which language? 19:39:44 i know what a noun is 19:40:28 hey, speaking of smalltalk, geakazoid have you ever looked at squeak? 19:40:55 jmck speaking of smalltalk... hehehehehe... I know only enough about it to pronounce it 19:41:06 jmck I'll bit 19:41:08 bite 19:42:10 they are big on graphics/mm with a thing called morphs. I don't know alot about it. spent some time lookin at it a year ago. then I took up forth :) 19:42:23 adu I did not mean either constants or variables, I meant the word definitions themselves are more like verbs than nouns 19:42:45 jmck what kind of lang is squeak? 19:42:53 ya so? they're still going to be the same words right? who cares what you call them 19:43:20 gz - they boast that it's a smalltalk written in smalltalk - www.squeak.org 19:44:13 it's free too ;) last time i was at the site alot of the links were broke tho 19:45:25 adu the thing is that the coding style among the forthers is to code as small, tight, simple as possible 19:45:54 jmck well, I was shopping for a language for several years... but I am now set on at least writing the core of my code with forth 19:46:21 ya i like that style 19:46:46 jmck however, I am also still trying to figure out how I am going to do the 3D Animation part of my project 19:49:45 adu sqeak has an Apple LIcense and I knew one of the Disney family members. My criteria is be able to share code or extend it and also sell it to an end user if I choose. 19:50:06 gz i dunno -- opengl maybe? 19:50:28 jmack have you read Core Web3D? 19:54:36 gz - no have you got any links for it? 19:55:43 gz btw - did you get any answers about toolbars in swiftforth? 19:57:27 jmck well there are samples I have been trying out but I have yet to dissect enought to do it myself 20:00:21 www.coreweb3d.com 20:00:59 thanks I'll check it out; gotta go - see ya next time 20:01:54 bye 20:02:51 --- quit: jmck () 20:10:45 --- quit: adu ([BX] Beefcake! BEEFCAKE!) 20:16:27 --- quit: geakazoid (Leaving... <k!15b8>) 23:39:14 --- join: adu (shadowirc@adsl-63-201-89-27.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.08.19