00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.08.13
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06:32:15 <ree> hey aaron
06:32:22 <ree> whats his name is looking for you heh
06:36:45 * aaronl is back (gone 00:04:37)
06:37:01 <aaronl> ree: I just had a catistrophic failure of /home
06:37:09 <ree> ouch aaron
06:37:58 <aaronl> fixed it tho
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10:05:05 <speuler> g'day
10:05:31 <ree> hey speuler
10:26:42 <speuler> hello ree. do we know each other ?
10:26:54 <ree> heh, nope, just saying hello
10:27:03 <speuler> u do forth ?
10:27:10 <ree> actually no
10:27:20 <speuler> your a scotsman then ?
10:27:32 <ree> heh, scotsman?
10:27:37 <speuler> from the firth or forth
10:27:40 <speuler> of ...
10:27:55 <speuler> with roads, called "forth street"
10:28:02 <speuler> and hotels, called "forth view"
10:28:18 <speuler> i took some photos when i cycled along ...
10:28:22 <ree> heh, I'm a assembly programmer
10:28:25 <speuler> a forth hall
10:28:28 <ree> an 
10:28:35 <speuler> close enough :)
10:28:44 <speuler> what cpus ?
10:28:50 <ree> x86, and some m68k
10:29:08 <speuler> 32bit x86, or real mode ?
10:29:16 <ree> both
10:29:21 <ree> I mostly study logic systems though
10:29:26 <ree> ai, self modifying code
10:29:31 <ree> into theory right now
10:29:35 <speuler> sounds fun
10:29:35 <ree> until I can start programming
10:33:54 <speuler> many forth programmers are quite good at asm too
10:33:58 <ree> yep
10:34:11 <speuler> because forth can be very low-level if desired
10:34:34 <speuler> i migrated from asm to forth myself
10:34:48 <speuler> but still do asm occasionally
10:35:04 <ree> cool
10:35:12 <ree> yeah, asm gives me the best access to use self modifying code
10:40:44 <Fare> walkforcapitalism.org
10:40:58 <Fare> anyone talking about scotland?
10:41:55 <speuler> actually, i did
10:42:03 <speuler> high fare
10:42:28 <ree> ahh, now I get it
10:43:48 <speuler> when i was running the forth channel on ircnet, most people showing asked whether the topic was related to the river/firth of forth in scotland
10:44:04 <ree> ohh
10:44:19 <speuler> and when i made "foot in yourself shoot" from it, people thought it meant "soccer"
10:45:06 <Fare> problem is, forth cannot be high-level if desired. it can be higher-level than C, but that's still a far cry from high-level.
10:45:07 <speuler> Fare: are zou sensitized by the mention of "scotland" ?
10:45:16 <Fare> my SO is from scotland
10:45:23 <speuler> what part ?
10:45:29 <Fare> glasgow
10:45:38 <speuler> 've been there
10:45:42 <speuler> recently
10:45:49 <ree> heh, I don't think lisp is high level either
10:45:57 <ree> visual basic = high level
10:46:12 <ree> when you use a modeler for a software application
10:46:26 <ree> but going by the description, anything higher than asm is high ;)
10:46:28 <Fare> lisp is definitely high-level
10:46:45 <speuler> I've written a forth in basic ...
10:46:58 <speuler> peeks and pokes al over :)
10:47:06 <Fare> also it initially scores low on high-levelness, and, like forth, has to be extended upwards
10:48:29 <speuler> sp&=sp&-cell& : pokel sp&,tos&+1 : tos&=peek(tos&)
10:48:33 <ree> well, I don't think humans should be using a language to develop software
10:48:44 <ree> unless it models the software
10:49:09 <ree> the details should be left up to the computer itself
10:49:33 <speuler> ithat basic thing is the only language i got running on my handheld device
10:49:40 <ree> we still have that physical seperation, language and tool, tool and code, code and program
10:49:50 <ree> cool speuler
10:50:05 <speuler> actually, now it runs forth too :)
10:50:29 <speuler> have recently - two days ago - just improved the catch - throw construct :)
10:50:58 <speuler> this platform serves well to lift off pseudo code...
10:51:14 <speuler> after all, it kind of looks like it has been written as pseudo code
10:51:18 <ree> until there is a good modeler/computer backend, asm all the way =)
10:51:37 <ree> speuler, heh, you could of saved yourself some money and just written on a piece of paper ;)
10:51:44 <speuler> pity that code ... end-code doesn't work :(
10:52:02 <speuler> ask a piece of paper to show proper operation 
10:52:16 <ree> heh, when you write something down
10:52:21 <speuler> or to demonstrate the use of forth ...
10:52:26 <ree> proper operation should be apparent =)
10:52:39 <speuler> not to the one not knowing forth
10:52:44 <ree> machine code on paper ;)
10:53:11 <speuler> i'm afraid my time will be up soon (internet cafe)
10:53:22 <ree> ohh, well, nice meeting you speuler
10:53:25 <ree> see you sometime?
10:53:27 <Fare> speuler: where are you from?
10:53:44 <speuler> living in the netherlands, but staying some time in germany now
10:53:53 <ree> heh, why walk for capitalism?
10:53:53 <speuler> camping site, for a IT project :)
10:54:21 <speuler> a forth project, actually
10:54:41 <ree> hah, lots going on there eh
10:54:55 <speuler> munich
10:55:06 <Fare> ree: why not?
10:55:26 <ree> I think capitalism will evolve into something better
10:55:34 <ree> just be a few more decades
10:56:02 <Fare> www.liberalia.com
10:56:15 <ree> capitalism is a support of communism
10:56:19 <ree> supporter
10:56:50 <ree> we pay billions of dollars for oil every week to 3rd world/communist countries
10:57:13 <ree> we rely on a oversized government that has over 50% of the workforce working for it
10:57:30 <ree> extremes of both are basically bad off
10:57:39 <speuler> think of the huge amount of titanium the army purchased from russia for its fighter planes :)
10:57:50 <ree> heh, speuler
10:58:18 <ree> not to mention the computer parts/minerals that are manufactured and mined for in communist countries
10:58:20 <speuler> now titanium igets dumped
10:58:23 <ree> or under some form of dictatorship
10:58:37 <speuler> to make cheap cutlery :)
10:59:34 <speuler> actually makes snse ... now the lights are gone out.
10:59:38 <speuler> monitor i mean.
10:59:46 <ree> hah
10:59:46 <speuler> so i'm gone . g'd bye
10:59:51 <ree> maybe they'll lock you in there
10:59:53 <ree> later =)
10:59:58 <speuler> 'll be back on thursday.
11:00:01 <ree> k
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11:02:50 <Fare> ree: NOT capitalism -- statism
11:03:04 <Fare> ree: states are the antithesis of capitalism.
11:03:08 <ree> statism?
11:03:11 <ree> ohh
11:03:17 <ree> I actually like states
11:03:21 <Fare> the doctrine that State (Government) is your friend.
11:03:36 <ree> hmm, not sure what you are saying
11:03:36 <Fare> or can/should/must be your friend.
11:03:55 <ree> hong kong is kind of cool
11:03:59 <Fare> yuck
11:04:01 <ree> I watched a review on them
11:04:08 <Fare> as compared to mainland china, certainly
11:04:10 <ree> you can start a business in no time, and there are little laws
11:04:34 <Fare> sure -- that's good
11:04:42 <Fare> government-enacted laws are EVIL
11:04:53 <ree> yeah
11:04:59 <ree> they make for some interesting politicians
11:05:04 <Fare> governments shouldn't exist -- they are EVIL.
11:05:13 <ree> heh, people are evil
11:05:18 <ree> in opinion
11:05:35 <ree> things would be a lot better off without us
11:06:00 <ree> doesn't mean we shouldn't live, nature made its choice
11:06:34 <Fare> ree: go read stuff on bastiat.org or bastiat.net or liberalia.com
11:06:53 <Fare> bastiat's Economic Harmonies are enlightening
11:07:07 <Fare> although he's written shorter stuff, too
11:07:13 <ree> yeah, but this is idealism
11:07:18 <Fare> no
11:07:20 <ree> which doesn't fly with human nature
11:07:29 <Fare> the idea that State can be good is utopian idealism
11:07:48 <ree> how do you take something and reverse it like that
11:07:50 <Fare> wel, sorry, gotta go now, no time to discuss tonight
11:07:53 <ree> communism is idealism
11:07:58 <ree> ok, later =)
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12:25:01 <speuler> g'day agn
12:29:24 <ree> hey
12:29:41 <speuler> i may just have a few minutes cuase it is a hacked system ..
12:29:53 <ree> heh
12:30:08 <speuler> one which didn't seem to work but thethe staff doesn't know about linux hehe
12:30:23 <ree> ohh
12:30:25 <ree> hah
12:30:39 <speuler> so i logged in with a hacked acocunt and just started x so it looks normal :)
12:30:44 <ree> so what do you do speuler?
12:30:57 <speuler> right now you mean ?
12:31:06 <ree> heh, for life
12:31:11 <ree> what are your interests/hobbies
12:31:40 <speuler> cycling, forth en so onm
12:31:42 <speuler> on
12:33:01 <speuler> i do whole countries by bicycle :)
12:33:18 <speuler> but for work, i'm in a camping car
12:33:31 <ree> hehe, cool
12:34:26 <speuler> for most of my work i use forth
12:34:40 <ree> ahh
12:34:47 <ree> what type of work do you do?
12:34:48 <speuler> usually writing an interpreter, and then some firmware
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12:54:33 <speuler> hehe
12:54:36 <ree> hah
12:54:52 <speuler> found a workaround :)
12:55:02 <ree> so, do you have any current projects
12:55:13 <speuler> that's what i'm in munich for
12:56:28 <speuler> another 6 weeks initially
12:56:40 <ree> you're camping/biking?
12:57:03 <speuler> i live in my camper now, cycling to work every day
12:57:34 <ree> cool
12:57:39 <ree> I like doing that
12:57:51 <ree> camping really is nice
12:58:00 <ree> especially near a brook or wooded area
12:58:10 <speuler> riverside
12:58:14 <speuler> woodside
12:58:29 <speuler> 6..7 km , about 4 miles, to work
12:58:35 <ree> neat
12:58:48 <ree> do you weight lift at all?
12:58:54 <speuler> nice people on the camp site
12:59:22 <speuler> many people staying there for seasonal work, or temporary work, few weeks/monhs
12:59:58 <speuler> i prefer to sit on the camp site rather than in a flat
13:00:17 <speuler> i actuall have given up my flat in munich, just a day before this job has been offered to me.
13:01:03 <speuler> weight lifting ? nope. i mean, i pull my own weight
13:01:58 <speuler> dat word op ten duur wel saai
13:02:07 <speuler> oops, wrong channel, sorry ...
13:03:55 <speuler> i can lift keyboards too
13:05:28 <speuler> and the occasional pint of beer
13:06:04 <ree> hehe
13:06:10 <ree> I am into power lifting
13:06:18 <speuler> i wield a mean forth voc too
13:09:43 <ree> I think it's the best way to get fit/healthy
13:10:31 <speuler> i find it helps you coming up with original solutions
13:12:34 <speuler> which helps a lot in our profession
13:13:02 <ree> yeah
13:13:19 <ree> exercise is crucial
13:14:22 <speuler> so many times we could look programers of other languages like dilletants
13:14:56 <speuler> which is often not their fault but a shortcoming in the language
13:15:59 <speuler> right now, we manage to let java programmers look very inapt
13:16:24 <speuler> cause we can design the oops right around the core of the problem
13:16:41 <speuler> instead of trying to fit it into the language
13:17:34 <ree> haha, reading news is so nice on cable =)
13:17:50 <ree> I got like 2 thousand newsgroups per second 
13:18:09 <ree> speuler, heh, I don't like OOP
13:18:21 <speuler> i'm not exactly a fan of it neither
13:18:29 <ree> I think OO is great
13:18:32 <speuler> but it is a job requirement for the current job
13:18:32 <ree> but can't stand OOP
13:18:53 <speuler> it is ok if you use it at the appropriate places
13:19:09 <speuler> but not fit for trying to solve everything with it
13:21:58 <speuler> it's ok if you write the oops yourself
13:22:06 <speuler> that's some fun at least
13:22:25 <speuler> but i find programming OO reduces my productivity
13:22:30 <ree> yeah, I will say
13:22:32 <ree> OOP is fun
13:22:34 <ree> but it sucks =)
13:22:43 <ree> OO model is great though
13:23:10 <speuler> all this typechecking you have to struggle against ...
13:24:02 <speuler> my co is a former java programmer who went forth
13:24:16 <speuler> but his java ancestry still shows 
13:24:53 <ree> heh
13:25:23 <speuler> he left the sinking ship in time
13:25:38 <ree> java is fine without the graphics classes
13:26:04 <ree> they even have 4bit jdk
13:26:37 <speuler> some of the things we need to do is virtually impossible with java
13:27:34 <speuler> there's no graphics involved in it at all
13:27:49 <speuler> i must leave you again now
13:28:10 <speuler> thanks for taking sparing your time
13:28:23 <speuler> i'll drop in again when i'm around
13:28:24 <ree> heh, np, have a great one
13:28:27 <ree> k
13:28:39 <speuler> say hello to i440r
13:28:47 <speuler> when he's around again
13:28:57 <speuler> g'd bye
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