00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.07.23 00:03:01 cool!!! 00:03:12 nano = pico= sux :P 00:03:18 get joe hehe :) 00:11:44 lol 00:11:49 i luv pico better 00:11:55 anyway goin for break 00:11:55 bbs 00:35:10 --- part: PyRoMaNiAc left #forth 01:18:39 --- quit: edrx (Read error to edrx[copacabana-ttyS22.inx.com.br]: EOF from client) 04:36:26 --- quit: Trey (Bowser[1.1-release]: server window terminating...) 05:11:13 --- join: Johannes (jrus@pta-dial-196-31-185-168.mweb.co.za) joined #forth 05:11:26 hi BorgHOME I440r 05:16:28 --- join: Trey (bowser@ns.TreySoft.com) joined #forth 05:31:10 --- quit: Johannes (Ping timeout for Johannes[pta-dial-196-31-185-168.mweb.co.za]) 05:31:26 --- join: TreyB (bowser@ns.TreySoft.com) joined #forth 05:33:01 --- quit: Trey (Bowser[1.1-release]: server window terminating...) 05:33:02 --- nick: TreyB -> Trey 05:57:35 * Trey is idle: flying lesson 06:06:12 --- quit: BorgHOME ([x]chat) 08:16:05 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.75) joined #forth 09:39:15 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 10:10:30 * Trey has returned 10:57:09 --- join: speuler (icafe@pflaume.icafe.spacenet.de) joined #forth 10:57:23 g'day 10:57:35 morning 4 u ? 10:57:35 * Trey goes to grab some lunch 10:57:42 * Trey is idle: luncheoning 10:57:48 G'day, speuler. 10:57:59 * Trey is idle: luncheoning 11:03:06 trey: enjoy food 11:03:16 so do i 11:11:55 guess i'll be going to buy me one of those stamp-sized forth-controller based computer boards pretty soon 11:12:19 maybe i can fit it somewhere in my psion 11:13:03 underneath the space bar maybe 11:41:02 sorry, scherm is weer donker, weg ben ik 11:41:07 de mazzel 11:41:10 --- quit: speuler (Leaving) 11:42:14 --- join: edrx (edrx@copacabana-ttyS1.inx.com.br) joined #forth 11:42:57 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 11:43:49 * Trey has returned 13:09:24 --- join: I440r_ (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 13:10:00 Eeek! Two of them. 13:10:53 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout for I440r[purplecoder.com]) 14:33:31 * Trey is idle: life, etc. 14:54:47 --- quit: I440r_ (zelazny.openprojects.net benford.openprojects.net) 14:54:58 --- join: I440r_ (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 16:16:42 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust72.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 16:16:42 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 16:16:47 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +oo I440r_ Trey 16:18:06 --- topic: set to 'Today on DebugFest: cleverdra struggles to find a bug in his blockified Enth system!' by cleverdra 16:55:01 good heavens. 16:55:02 http://feynman.physics.lsa.umich.edu/~williams/dstrings.html 18:02:23 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-88-91.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 18:03:52 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o adu 18:03:55 hello adu. 18:04:16 hi 18:04:54 how goes it? 18:04:59 igtg eat dinner in a bit 18:08:56 * cleverdra nods. 18:09:26 It goes pretty well. See the topic. I'm not debugging it right now, because I'm on the 'net instead. Later it's gruelling binary-division debugging time. 18:09:57 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 18:12:35 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-65-199-115.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 18:12:56 i always miss the debugfests!! :( 18:17:39 topic 18:17:47 i'm being funny 18:17:54 i always miss the debugfests! :P 18:18:00 :) 18:18:09 that's why i messaged everyone 18:18:12 in this chan 18:18:19 cuz i wanted somebody to laugh too :P 18:18:30 --- mode: I440r_ set mode: +o futhin 18:24:35 :) 18:24:47 futh ever play mud ? 18:25:25 yes 18:25:26 yup 18:25:37 me 2 - rite now hehe 18:25:47 moongate.net 4000 18:26:09 if u play on a tinymuck server, u can code in MUF (forth-like) it's really cool! :P 18:26:30 im told its one of the best muds there is 18:26:44 uh 18:26:48 moongate? 18:27:04 yes 18:27:04 what mudtype is it? what mudserver is it running? 18:27:10 dunno 18:27:25 the wrote it themselves i think 18:27:30 its huge too 18:28:19 is it a hack'n'slash? a pker? a talker? 18:28:57 limited pk 18:29:20 pk only in arena - u resurrect immed 18:29:36 or in a cpk are - if u die ther eu lose everything 18:30:00 hm 18:30:06 <-- bored with muds right now :) 18:30:10 hehe 18:30:13 i play subspace now 18:30:25 i played this rite to level 60 and was about to multi but decided my char was crap 18:30:30 deleted him and started over :P 18:30:40 lol, i know that feeling :) 18:30:55 except i never get past lvl 10 before deciding my char is crap :) 18:31:35 actually i had a lvl 15 char 18:31:38 i learned th secret here 18:31:40 but i forget the name 18:31:56 u train your wisdim to max 18:32:05 that way you get more trains at each level 18:32:15 that's dependant on the mud :) 18:32:16 then u train vitality to get more HP 18:32:23 yes - this one im talkin about 18:32:35 im level 36 and ive yet to train a single skill 18:32:39 some muds have stats u have to roll for and u can't fix them 18:32:45 ive been increasing wisdom and vitality only 18:33:09 this one u roll but u get X out of a max of Y wisdome etc 18:33:13 and you can train it up to the max 18:35:23 futhin: did you want something? 18:36:12 adu: what are you up to with your lang? 18:36:20 obtw, i was wondering what the most popular forth impl. is 18:36:28 o i'm changing it every second 18:36:34 i was going to use a lisp reader 18:36:42 but its becoming very different 18:36:51 there are these things called "hungry" operators 18:37:08 that delete whitespace before evaluation to form a single token from 2 tokens 18:37:44 hungry binary operators form a "token" from 3, themselves, and the 2 around them 18:37:54 and i'm trying to make it as extensible as possible 18:38:07 so you can define your own ops anytime in any namespace 18:38:37 i think the whitespace stuff that u have in your lang are unnecessarily complicated.. 18:38:41 what's the point? 18:38:53 what is the aim of your lang? and how are u dealing with the aim of your lang? 18:39:03 to remove the need for statement seperators 18:39:43 why are u doing infix notation? why not reverse polish notation? 18:40:03 the aim of my language is to 1) employ lisp-like semantic features with syntactic features of other languages 18:40:48 2) generally make things easier to read while collecting functional features from rich powerful languages 18:40:56 why do u want lisp-like semantic features? 18:41:06 bcuz you can do so much with lisp 18:41:08 its nice 18:41:10 forth is very easy to read 18:41:14 heh 18:41:14 Eeek! Someone has built a Linux sys-call handler for Win2K: http://line.sourceforge.net/ 18:41:35 It lets you run Linux x86 binaries on Windows. 18:41:36 not really, forth is just as unnecesarily complicates 18:41:37 d 18:41:41 in some ways 18:41:42 trey: lol 18:41:52 adu: how so? 18:42:03 adu: the whole philosophy of forth is to simplify as much as possible 18:42:38 my view of simplicity is two-fold i think 18:43:10 the language itself should be simply implemented, but this often makes for complicated use, and things that are easy to use are usually complexly implemented 18:43:34 i'm trying to find a better comprimise than i've found in other languages 18:44:25 adu: um.. forth is easy to implement and easy to use.. 18:44:47 many people would disagree, i think forth is easy now, but i didn't when i started to learn it 18:45:22 pn & rpn are not signs of ease of use 18:45:48 "pn"? 18:45:55 polish notation 18:46:09 i forget which was which tho 18:46:39 (+ 1 2) = pn & 1 2 + is rpn i think 18:47:07 Prefix notation, and reverse prefix notation. 18:47:17 o 18:47:19 adu: what a lot of people forget is that learning a programming language for the first time involved some work. learning C involved work, but now it is natural. learning assembly involved work (because it is a lot different), but now it is natural. learning forth involves work because it is quite a bit different, but it is natural 18:47:22 someone said it was polish 18:47:46 ;-) 18:47:57 ya i know 18:48:20 trey: reverse polish notation 18:48:35 RPN = reverse polish notation. reverse prefix notation 18:48:38 er 18:48:41 but there are many languages that have been proven to be easier to maintain 18:48:44 RPN = reverse polish notation. not reverse prefix notation 18:48:46 and i think that plays a role too 18:48:50 adu: proven? 18:49:01 i'm not sure by who, but i remember hearing about a study 18:49:38 do you want me to update my page? 18:50:05 its still got a few broken links and some inconsistant info 18:50:11 adu: forth is very easy to maintain. suppose you have some code that runs on some hardware, then suddenly u need to port it to some other hardware. all you have to do is modify the lower-level words. 18:50:17 adu: what's your page 18:50:21 what's the url? 18:50:30 homepage.mac.com/andrewrobbins/d-lang.html 18:50:31 for now 18:51:00 i'm not updating it until i've finished making it consistant 18:51:30 i was also thinking of including some forth and scheme words and symbols 18:51:42 so that it would be a hybrid language of sorts 18:51:50 adu: you asked about the most popular forth implementation? well, i can tell you that ANSI Forth is evil and that FIG-Forth 83 is much more popular :) 18:51:59 o really? 18:52:13 ya i hear ANS forth is very hated 18:52:24 what about gforth/pForth/bigFORTH? 18:52:35 adu: they all conform to ANS 18:52:39 oic 18:52:40 they suport ans 18:52:50 i'll try dl'ing fig then 18:53:25 but you can redefine the operators to be pn or rpn if you wanted to 18:53:37 thats the beuty of it 18:53:41 (imho) 18:55:16 adu: the prob with ans is that it complicates forth a lot for various reasons 18:55:19 for example, one of my additions it SQL-like abilities inbuilt to the qualified identifier syntax 18:55:55 does fig-forth still use !, @, .s, dup, pop, etc? 18:56:12 fig used >r and r> didnt it ? 18:56:21 do does ansi 18:56:24 i prefer >r and r> 18:56:41 push and pop are totally wrong because >r is both a pop AND a push 18:57:01 it just seems very wrong to me :) 18:57:14 i thought that r is just a different stack... 18:57:30 is it? 18:58:03 it is 18:58:08 o ok 18:58:23 so POP odes a POP a [pop off returna nd a push to parameter 18:58:33 push does a pop from parameter and a push to return 18:58:44 pop and push BOTH do a push and a pop 18:58:49 bad name 18:59:01 i never knew there was a parameter stack 18:59:11 >r says TO return stack - the from is mplied 18:59:21 r> say to parameter stack 18:59:25 much neater 19:00:07 i thought there was a main stack, return stack, and float stack 19:00:30 not all forths have float 19:00:38 if i ever get one taht does ill remopve it 19:00:40 futhin: so what do you think of the page? 19:00:50 ive yet to see a single instance where FLOAT is better than int 19:01:00 heh 19:01:36 l 19:03:23 adu: well i don't see what the point of your language is at all 19:04:31 forth is very practical because you build the language of the application before writing the application 19:04:51 adu: u should read "starting forth" by leo brodie. go to your local library 19:06:42 <-- is attempting to write an intro to forth to put on the web, but procrastination keeps interrupting :) 19:07:52 lol 19:08:16 well i understand forth's appeal... 19:08:33 but i have different ideas 19:08:43 maybe i just need some time to think of ways to express them 19:10:07 how would you implement an array ot a hash object in forth? 19:19:39 do you want to know the real reason? 19:20:04 the point of my language is to make people happy, so how can i make you happy? 19:32:49 hmm 19:35:08 so? 19:38:04 futhin?? 19:38:09 ... 19:38:32 ((an afk would be nice)) 20:20:16 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 20:20:17 --- quit: I440r_ (Read error to I440r_[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer) 20:23:26 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 20:47:38 heh 20:47:40 sorry adu 20:47:46 went off to play subspace 20:49:18 concerning forth: there's a learning curve. it's worth it. forth is the most powerful, flexible, clean language i have encountered. it is easily extensible. it is low level AND high level. 20:50:56 ok forget what i said about difficulty 20:51:10 my new language will certainly be difficult for some ppl to learn as well 20:51:18 adu: forth makes me happy. i'm highly concerned about the low-level because of speed, efficiency, and simplicity. however, abstraction is also important - and forth provides that. 20:52:34 then could you give me feedback on how to make my lang? bcuz i have ideas in which the whole system is a small extension to either forth or lisp, i just haven't decided which road to take 20:52:57 you can extend the forth compiler ridiculously easy.. many people have implemented object oriented stuff, i imagine someone has implemented a way of making an array of a hash object. 20:53:11 adu: i recommend u make the extensions to forth for several reasons. 20:53:25 bcuz if it was an ext to forth, then it could have operators that are programs themselves, but are delayed for one instruction for the next to be put on the stack 20:53:38 1) you will be forced to learn and understand forth better. 20:54:07 2) the forth compiler is very easy to understand ( and very small ) 20:54:36 from what i know now i know it can be done... i mean ext'ing it 20:54:38 3) forth is fast. some benchmarks show forth faster than C/C++ 20:55:07 i know about structures, variables, and the stacks 20:55:15 and a tiny bit about I/O 20:55:39 do you understand the interpretor and compiler in forth? 20:55:49 like the dictionary? ya 20:56:01 not quite.. do you know about the words [ ] ? 20:56:13 do you know about immediate words? 20:56:24 um 20:56:32 basicly 20:56:45 i'm not sure 20:56:55 i remember learning what they were, but i have no idea now 20:57:03 hmm, maybe i should explain it a little.. 20:57:08 sure 20:57:33 you know how you can have some code that looks like 20:58:02 : ALOOP 5 0 do ." hi" loop ; 20:58:10 ya 20:58:13 the DO is an immediate word 20:58:32 because it gets executed when the compiler encounters it 20:58:48 the compiler starts compiling the whole thing (because of the : word) 20:58:49 ic 20:59:41 you can write your own DO LOOPs or IF ELSE THEN or whatever. you can write a word and then make it immediate and it will then be executed when encountered by compiler 21:00:13 you can also do : SOMENUMBER [ 4 X 16 ] ; 21:00:26 the [ ] causes the stuff inside to be executed before compiled.. 21:00:30 it's handy for readability 21:01:02 basically, to make a word immediate, you have 21:01:10 : ; immediate 21:01:15 i've seen that before 21:01:17 you type immediate there to make it immediate 21:01:29 and that means it gets executed when the compiler is compiling the word.. 21:01:42 the other word.. the word that calls the immediate word 21:01:49 ps seems to have a better syntax imho 21:02:08 like the /funct-name {do this stuff} def 21:02:30 PS has _more_ syntax. I don't know about "better". 21:02:41 o hehe 21:02:45 adu: it's different tho 21:02:50 yes it is 21:03:13 adu: basically, Forth IS the compiler, the interpretor and the dictionary.. there's no separation of the compiler from the code... 21:03:51 even the "syntax" commands are WORDS.. commands like : ; ( ) DO LOOP BEGIN WHILE are all WORDS 21:03:52 ic 21:03:59 ya i know 21:03:59 and that's the coolest thing about forth 21:04:15 forth is an interactive language.. 21:04:17 well my lang would be like that too 21:04:20 forth is the lang 21:04:27 the lang is the compiler 21:05:37 nice 21:05:51 adu: i strongly recommend that u learn forth fully first before you try to implement your language 21:05:52 so is there anything you don't like about forth? 21:06:21 ok, but you see i often think i've learned a language "enough" when i get the main points 21:06:39 there's nothing i don't like about forth. it is so simple, and it has no "syntax", and you can EXTEND the language/compiler itself! 21:06:44 like i thought i was an emacs pro when i learned howto switch buffers =) 21:06:53 heh 21:06:53 LOL 21:08:03 adu: check your local library for "starting forth by leo brodie" or if they don't have it, ask for an intralibrary loan 21:08:09 ok i will 21:08:27 it's an easy read and very informational.. although i'm going to have to read it for the 2nd time 21:08:29 adu: Forth takes a lot of support code to do usefull things in GUI environments. 21:08:39 so how to you make an alias for an immediate word? 21:08:46 trey: that's cuz nobody has done the support code.. 21:08:48 adu: Most other language environments already have this support code. 21:08:53 futhin: agreed. 21:09:13 support code? you mean like a lib? 21:09:24 trey: i'm seeing some stuff out there with better gui support.. i think 21:09:25 is bigFORTH the only one with GUI ability? 21:10:11 adu: The only PD version, I think. 21:10:17 o forth DOESN'T .... oops i can't read 21:10:33 adu: what do you mean make an alias for an immediate word? 21:10:44 SwiftForth has GUI support for Windows. 21:11:12 adu: my guess is that you can make an alias by : ; immediate 21:11:22 well you see the only thing i hate about forth is the default words, they are really hard to memorize, and if something it just a regular word you can do : new-word old-word ; 21:11:59 what default words are hard to memorize? a lot of the words are dependant on the implementation.. 21:12:05 but if its immediate, wouldn't it execute before it was defined? 21:12:17 heh 21:12:23 yeah, my mistake.. 21:12:24 uh 21:12:33 futhin dropped a postpone 21:12:34 like ! @ >R R> and #s ." , 21:12:36 i think there's something to turn off the immediate bit if you have too 21:12:38 all the little things 21:12:43 and they don't even make any sense 21:13:24 adu: if they don't make sense you are going to have trouble memorizing them.. reading a good book on forth will help with that :) 21:13:53 i understand them now, but i just don't like them 21:14:15 uh.. 21:14:23 why don't u like them? 21:14:54 i just told you, they're tiny and hard to remember 21:15:15 they remind me of befunge 21:15:20 heh 21:15:50 things like dup pop and push are fine, but its the non-alphabetic ones i don't like 21:15:54 naw.. ! and @ are for variables, >R R> are for the 2nd stack, #s is ." display stuff.. 21:16:07 i know 21:16:27 yeah well, i don't use variables and i don't use the 2nd stack yet, and i display a little bit :) 21:17:07 there's no pop/push.. there's drop/swap 21:17:25 hmm 21:17:47 whatever 21:18:00 i was thinking of ps 21:18:31 adu: go here http://www.forth.com/Content/History/History1b.htm and read the first part 21:18:42 ok 21:18:52 the early development part 21:18:55 but its not like i don't know forth 21:19:06 yeah 21:19:13 it's just about chuck moore and his philosophy 21:19:26 i know chuck's philosophy 21:19:35 and i'm not very fond of it 21:19:48 which part of his philosophy are you not fond of? 21:20:27 i thought he had a convincing argument, but the part about people needing to be one with computers was kinda wierd, he didn't use those words tho 21:20:34 hehe 21:20:59 heheh 21:21:41 no, it's not "one with computers".. it's "computer | person" (no layers) rather than "computer | bullshit | bullshit | person" (a bunch of layers) 21:22:23 there's no real need with all the layers, they cause inefficiency and ppl keep reinventing the wheel for each layer 21:22:26 you could still argue layers 21:23:05 ya there is, but they're needed for a different purpose 21:23:09 layers cause bloat, and bloat is evil 21:23:53 software eficiency doesn't need layers, marketting eficiency does 21:23:57 forth is kinda cool because u don't have the "layers", but you can still get the high-level abstraction you need.. 21:24:41 Chuck makes code for himself. 21:25:08 ya 21:25:13 He has no desire (unless someone pays him :-) to make code for other folks. 21:25:31 yeah, he's coded for others though (paid) 21:26:14 Sure, but nobody pays him to write the kind of code that needs layering. 21:26:22 but you gotta admit that forth isn't for everyone 21:26:44 I wouldn't make anyone use anything. 21:27:09 trey: thats good... i meant to ask futhin.... 21:28:15 why is forth not for everyone? it is really easy for people to adapt it to their own needs. 21:28:40 <-- won't be admiting that forth isn't for everyone :P 21:29:02 Anyone who wishes may use forth. 21:33:33 personally i think there are some problems with the promotion of forth and helping people understand forth. the web resources on forth SUCK so i am in the process of writing a proper introduction to forth. also, i have the advantage of being more comfortable with forth sooner because i learned MUF (a forth-like lang) first. 21:33:51 MUF is very nice and i'm thinking that having LEVELS of languages within a system would be awesome. basically, have Forth as the bottom level lang, and something like MUF has the top level lang 21:34:05 MUF is very nice for newbies.. 21:34:20 it would be a cool "scripting" lang 21:34:24 * Trey likes muff 21:34:30 and that is what it is used for mostly.. 21:34:42 trey: lol, were not here to talk about your perversity :P 21:34:50 we're* 21:34:54 Ooops. Wrong channel. 21:35:11 don't lie! u aren't on any other chans ;) 21:35:30 Not on this server. 21:35:36 ;-) 21:35:40 what other chans are u on then? :) 21:35:59 #roofdisposal, #pdf, #rumors 21:36:23 #roofdisposal? :) 21:36:40 You'd have to have followed Be, Inc. for a while to get it. 21:54:17 G'night, all. 21:54:23 * Trey is idle: sleeping 22:16:58 --- quit: I440r (varley.openprojects.net zelazny.openprojects.net) 22:16:59 --- quit: Trey (varley.openprojects.net zelazny.openprojects.net) 22:17:03 --- quit: adu (varley.openprojects.net zelazny.openprojects.net) 22:17:07 --- quit: nate37 (varley.openprojects.net zelazny.openprojects.net) 22:17:23 --- join: Trey (bowser@ns.TreySoft.com) joined #forth 22:17:23 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-88-91.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 22:17:23 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 22:17:23 --- join: I440r_ (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 22:17:23 --- mode: farmer.openprojects.net set mode: +oo Trey adu 22:17:31 --- quit: nate37 (zelazny.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net) 22:18:57 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 22:20:16 --- quit: futhin (.) 22:28:08 chuck sounds like Henry in Cannery Row 22:28:34 Henry was this character who was building a boat. 22:28:59 He was an artist, and made some unusual art, and was never satisfied with it 22:29:33 On his boat, he would often take lumber from one side and use it as something for the cabin 22:29:51 or paint something and leave it to dry for awhile 22:30:18 but everytime he was close to finishing it, something would "happen" and he'd end up needing to repair the damage 22:31:06 and the narator described him as someone afraid of water, so naturally he would never finish, bcuz if he did, he'd need to test it, and thats the last thing on earth he would want to do 22:31:22 but he loved boats 22:31:45 --- part: adu left #forth 22:31:45 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-88-91.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 22:33:56 --- quit: nate37 (sleep) 22:41:59 --- log: started forth/01.07.23 22:41:59 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 22:41:59 --- topic: 'Today on DebugFest: cleverdra struggles to find a bug in his blockified Enth system!' 22:41:59 --- topic: set by cleverdra on [Mon Jul 23 16:18:03 2001] 22:41:59 --- names: list (clog adu @Trey I440r_) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.07.23