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00:20:53 --- topic: 'www.colorforth.com www.forth.org www.forth.com'
00:20:53 --- topic: set by cleverdra on [Mon Jul 16 23:51:23 2001]
00:20:53 --- names: list (clog @BorgHOME_ @I440r @adu @Trey)
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09:12:20 * Trey has returned
09:12:24 <cleverdra> hey, Trey!
09:12:36 <Trey> Good morning, cleverdra.
09:12:53 <Trey> (or afternoon, I think, for you)
09:13:56 <cleverdra> Yeah, just barely afternoon here.
09:14:34 <cleverdra> http://www.execpc.com/~geezer/osd/ appears to be a good site.  alt.os.development webpage.
09:14:57 <cleverdra> BTW, did my keyboard code work for you?
09:15:05 <cleverdra> turning the capslock LED on and such.
09:15:44 <Trey> I haven't tried it yet.
09:15:59 * Trey boots Enth
09:16:03 <cleverdra> Huh, OK.  It doesn't work at all on my computer.  I'm mystified as to how I actually do this.
09:16:20 <cleverdra> Do you still have the code?
09:16:25 <Trey> No.
09:16:32 <cleverdra> Bah.  OK, one sec.
09:17:31 <cleverdra> OK, try this:
09:18:31 <cleverdra> hex : capson 0ED pc! 064 pc! 1 pc! 064 p! ; capson
09:18:39 <cleverdra> err, scrollon
09:19:11 * cleverdra acquires a clue.  Oh.
09:19:14 <cleverdra> Anyway, does that work?
09:19:14 <Trey> ?
09:19:21 <Trey> Just a sec
09:20:55 <Trey> Do you really want to access I/O location 0x01 ?
09:21:17 * cleverdra stares at that.  Goodness no.
09:21:26 <cleverdra> 1 064 pc!
09:21:33 <cleverdra> not   1 pc! 064 p!
09:21:52 <Trey> Same for the 0xed pc! ?
09:22:11 <cleverdra> Yes.  I'm sorry.
09:22:25 * cleverdra reattaches his brain to his fingers.
09:23:48 <Trey> Running that code doesn't turn on any LEDs.
09:23:56 <cleverdra> OK.  Try this, then.
09:23:56 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 1 and 0= until ; : LEDon 0ED 064 pc! 064 pc! ; 4 constant capslock 2 constant numlock 1 constant scrollock
09:24:07 <cleverdra> I just wrote that also, usage:
09:24:14 <Trey> Also, after running that code, none of the LEDs change when I hit the various lock keys.
09:24:17 <cleverdra> err.
09:24:31 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 1 and 0= until ; : LEDon kbrdy 0ED 064 pc! kbrdy 064 pc! ; 4 constant capslock 2 constant numlock 1 constant scrollock
09:24:35 <cleverdra> Try *that*.
09:25:07 <cleverdra> scrollock ( should be scrollLock, actually ) capslock or numlock or LEDon
09:25:10 <cleverdra> should set all the LEDs.
09:29:10 <Trey> Hmmm.  My keyboard no longer responds.
09:29:42 <cleverdra> um.  Did LEDon return?
09:29:48 <Trey> Yes.
09:29:59 <Trey> Also, the clock update stopped.
09:30:11 <cleverdra> Is there a little question mark at the top of the screen?
09:30:38 <Trey> I rebooted.
09:30:45 <cleverdra> Automatically?
09:30:52 <Trey> No, by force.
09:30:55 <cleverdra> OK.
09:31:08 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 1 and 0= until ; : LEDon kbrdy 0ED 064 pc! kbrdy 064 pc! kbrdy ; 4 constant capslock 2 constant numlock 1 constant scrollock
09:31:31 <cleverdra> If Enth is uncareful about reading the keyboard, which it may be, that should fix it.  That's wierd.
09:33:22 <cleverdra> When Enth faults, it either causes a reboot or puts freezes and puts a little question mark at the top of the screen.
09:33:45 <cleverdra> s/(?<=or) puts//
09:34:06 <cleverdra> Does that code work, Trey?
09:34:36 * cleverdra frowns.
09:34:53 <cleverdra> No, n/m.  That's right.
09:34:54 <Trey> Just a sec.
09:35:10 <Trey> I want to save it to floppy this time to I don't have to re-type it.
09:35:21 <cleverdra> OK.
09:36:19 <cleverdra> ColorEd is great for documentation, BTW.  Even if you only write non-color Forth, using ColorEd to colorize documentation helps.  You can fit a lot in one block when you use color well.
09:36:50 <cleverdra> Saves whitespace formatting you otherwise require for readability.
09:41:15 <Trey> Save to floppy complete.
09:42:04 <cleverdra> Cool.  I should write some block-specific loading/saving words.
09:43:31 <Trey> Ok, it doesn't work, but it no longer hangs the box.
09:43:56 <cleverdra> Well, that's nice.  No LEDs come on?  It returns and you can type and everything?
09:44:08 <cleverdra> What'd you type?
09:44:17 <Trey> numlock LEDon
09:44:32 <Trey> (that causes Enth to put a "0" in the input buffer)
09:45:02 <cleverdra> darn... hm.  A "0"?  wierd.  Enth OK's?
09:45:02 <Trey> scrolllock LEDon -> causes Enth to toggle focus, as if I'd pressed ESC
09:45:59 <Trey> Yeah, Enth "ok"s.
09:46:12 <Trey> numlock LEDon  ok
09:46:28 <cleverdra> try this... hex kbrdy ed 64 pc! -1 64 pc! kbrdy
09:46:29 <Trey> 0_<---cursor here
09:47:04 <cleverdra> i.e.,   -1 LEDon   without the kbrdy between the two pc! words.
09:47:56 <Trey> Ah
09:48:20 <cleverdra> Ah?
09:49:16 <cleverdra> Oh, I see why Enth crashed before.
09:49:39 <Trey> It doesn't seem to do anything.
09:49:50 <cleverdra> 0xFA is returned for most Enth commands, and when that is used as an index into the keytable... bad.
09:50:17 <cleverdra> that's bad, I mean.
09:50:24 <Trey> 0xFA ?
09:50:29 <cleverdra> Nothing at all?  Darn!
09:50:42 <cleverdra> 0xFA is 8048 for ACK
09:51:03 <Trey> Ah
09:51:08 <cleverdra> 8048 being the processor I think you're using, as opposed to the 8042
09:51:31 <Trey> Any way to probe it and find out?
09:51:47 <cleverdra> hm.. Try this:
09:52:09 <cleverdra> doh!  Yes.  try this:
09:52:47 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 1 and 0= until ; : LEDon kbrdy ED 60 pc! kbrdy 60 pc! kbrdy ; 4 constant capslock 2 constant numlock 1 constant scrollock
09:52:50 <cleverdra> Of /course/
09:53:18 <cleverdra> The 8048 uses port 60 both ways, which is why you need kbrdy.  8042 has port 64 for writing and doesn't need kbrdy.
09:53:32 <cleverdra> I'm sorry, my initial documentation was just for the 8042 and I got confused.
09:53:39 <cleverdra> To test that...
09:53:59 <cleverdra> hex kbrdy ee 60 pc! 60 pc@
09:54:14 <cleverdra> that should return ee
09:54:28 <cleverdra> 0xEE.  You might want to stick a KBRDY on the end of that for safety
09:55:28 <Trey> Now you tell me.
09:55:32 * Trey reboots
09:55:40 <cleverdra> eek.  Sorry.
09:56:02 <cleverdra> Well, you don't have to load the floppy to test this:
09:56:30 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 1 and 0= until ; kbrdy ee 60 pc! 60 pc@ kbrdy
09:59:35 <Trey> It returned 0x1c, then reboot the box.
10:00:18 <cleverdra> It shouldn't have rebooted... hm.
10:00:53 <cleverdra> It also shouldn't have returned 0x1c :-(
10:01:12 <cleverdra> OK, this is really far off, and wierd, but try this:
10:01:24 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 1 and 0= until ; kbrdy ee 60 pc! kbrdy 60 pc@ kbrdy
10:02:11 <cleverdra> Maybe put the definition of kbrdy and its use on another line.  I've had wierd problems... but that may just be ColorForth.
10:02:25 <cleverdra> Flux.
10:04:05 <Trey> Rebooted.
10:04:57 <cleverdra> Damn!  I don't understand, I'm sorry.
10:05:12 <Trey> Fighting with the Enth kbd interrupt handler, perhaps?
10:05:38 <Trey> Probably not :-(
10:05:43 <cleverdra> Perhaps.  I don't know if its using interrupts or direct port access.
10:06:11 <Trey> I wonder if any of this code causes an interrupt?
10:06:13 <cleverdra> I'm pretty sure that the problem is that it's reading port 60 and getting values that its table isn't large enough for.
10:06:49 <cleverdra> It /shouldn't/... Darn.  I'm going to have to turn interrupts off to make sure.
10:07:37 * Trey tries with interrupts turned off.
10:08:32 <cleverdra> theoretically, though, KBDRDY should get all garbage values... oh, there's another option.
10:09:29 <Trey> Rebooted
10:09:37 <cleverdra> : kbdreset kbrdy F4 60 pc! kbrdy F6 60 pc! ;
10:09:43 <cleverdra> : kbdreset kbrdy F4 60 pc! kbrdy F6 60 pc! kbrdy ;
10:10:16 <cleverdra> That should clear the output buffer and enable the keyboard, and then reset it for good measure.
10:10:36 <cleverdra> Try that after the previous line.
10:11:05 <cleverdra> err, try defining that, then using it at the end of the test code.
10:11:42 <cleverdra> 0xEE sent to the 8048 on port 60 should cause it to respond on port 60 with a 0xEE.
10:12:24 <cleverdra> You want to send that 0xEE, try to read it, and then reset the keyboard to keep Enth from dying horribly.
10:14:59 * cleverdra grumbles.
10:15:04 <cleverdra> KBRDY is wrong.
10:15:15 <Trey> kbreset causes a ? to appear in the top line of the display.
10:15:16 <cleverdra> : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 2 and 0= until ;
10:15:22 <Trey> Doh!
10:16:10 <cleverdra> Yeah.  Doh.
10:16:58 <cleverdra> OK.  Does that work? =)
10:17:00 <cleverdra> kbrdy ee 60 pc! kbrdy 60 pc@ kbrdy
10:17:02 <cleverdra> with that definition.
10:17:09 <cleverdra> kbrdy ee 60 pc! 60 pc@ kbrdy
10:17:15 <cleverdra> with that definition, I mean.
10:17:25 <Trey> kbreset still causes the ? to appear.
10:17:42 <cleverdra> OK.  Don't use kbreset, then.
10:18:09 <cleverdra> I may be confusing 8048 with those commands in KBRESET
10:19:34 <Trey> New definition causes ? to appear, followed immediately by a reboot.
10:20:01 <cleverdra> Oh, OK.
10:20:10 <cleverdra> ....
10:20:47 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 2 and 0= until ; : LEDon ED 64 pc! 64 pc! ; -1 LEDon
10:20:57 <cleverdra> Have you gotten Enth to work in Bochs? =)
10:21:14 <cleverdra> Try that.  You did use HEX first, right?
10:22:28 * cleverdra backtracks, prolog-style.
10:25:09 <Trey> I did use hex first.
10:25:25 <Trey> I haven't tried Enth in Bochs since Sean claims to have fixed it.
10:25:45 <cleverdra> OK.
10:26:11 <cleverdra> Actually, don't try that code.
10:26:29 <cleverdra> hex : kbrdy begin 60 pc@ 2 and 0= until ; : LEDon kbrdy ED 64 pc! kbrdy 64 pc! kbrdy ; -1 LEDon
10:26:50 <cleverdra> And if that doesn't work, try 0x60 instead of 0x64.
10:27:32 <cleverdra> There doesn't appear to be a way to probe for different processors, except to see if writing to 64 works.  0xEE causes an echo on port 60 whichever way you do it.
10:28:00 <cleverdra> ohh.. yikes.
10:28:43 <cleverdra> 8042 is complex.  Try that code with 0x60 instead.  Does that work?
10:29:31 * Trey tries again.
10:32:12 <Trey> You don't really need the 0= in kbrdy, right?
10:33:08 <cleverdra> Yes, because I'm waiting for b1 to be false.
10:33:28 <cleverdra> where b1 is the second bit from the right.
10:33:37 <Trey> Never mind.
10:34:15 <cleverdra> I take it that doesn't work?
10:34:20 <Trey> Hold on.
10:34:38 <Trey> You want me to try LEDon with 64 replaced by 60?
10:34:57 <cleverdra> Yes.
10:36:33 <Trey> With 60 replacing 64, I get the magic ? and then the machine hangs.
10:36:47 * cleverdra nods.
10:37:08 * cleverdra aborts.
10:37:23 <cleverdra> I'll have to consult my pineal gland and my computer.  Thank you for your help, Trey.
10:38:40 <cleverdra> hm.  possibly you should do a pc@ once before the final KBRDY to get the response, but n/m.  I've taken enough time..
10:38:44 <cleverdra> How are you doing?
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10:40:40 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o edrx
10:40:44 <cleverdra> hey, edrx.
10:41:00 <edrx> hi clev
10:41:33 <edrx> which OS are you using?
10:41:47 <cleverdra> Linux.  This box I'm on right now is windows, though.
10:42:44 <edrx> I am packing my Emacs package, together with some demos, in a way that anyone would be able to use
10:42:54 <edrx> (Emacs package = eev.el)
10:43:34 <edrx> as you said "hi" you became a natural candidate for trying it
10:43:39 <edrx> :)
10:43:41 * Trey goes to reboot this machine.
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10:44:47 <cleverdra> This is some complex code.
10:45:17 <edrx> what?
10:45:28 <cleverdra> some assembler... wait.
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10:49:05 <cleverdra> hex : (kbrdy) begin 60 pc@ dup 1 and 0= if exit then drop again ; : kbrdy begin 64 pc@ dup 1 and if drop (kbrdy) then 2 and 0= until ;
10:49:07 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o Trey
10:49:09 <cleverdra> Yikes.
10:49:33 <cleverdra> I'm going to have to work on that some.  Chuck's hard disk RDY is simpler.
10:50:37 <cleverdra> hex : LEDon kbrdy ED 60 pc! kbrdy 60 pc! ;
10:50:48 <Trey> Some hardware has lamer access protocols than others.
10:51:07 <cleverdra> 1 constanst scrolllock 2 constant numlock 4 constant capslock
10:51:23 <Trey> The keyboard has some of the lamest protocols ever.
10:51:32 <cleverdra> I agree, Trey.
10:51:50 <cleverdra> Lots of different kinds of keyboards, though.  All the hard disk has to do is store data :-/
10:52:09 <Trey> Ideally, you'd like the data back.
10:52:17 <cleverdra> Hopefully that KBRDY works, but I'll have to test it extensively.  It's not simple enough for me to be able to just look at it.
10:52:27 <cleverdra> Yeah.  Getting data from a hard disk is good, too.
10:53:43 <Trey> Grrr.  I can't get to work any more :-(
10:53:54 <Trey> It seems to have dropped off the 'net.
10:54:08 <cleverdra> That's bad =(
10:54:44 <Trey> Well, it means I can't work :-)
10:54:53 <cleverdra> That's good =)
10:55:08 * Trey goes to feed some animals.
10:55:34 * Trey is idle: feeding the barnyard critters.
10:56:05 <cleverdra> hex : reboot 0 40 @ 72 + ! kbrdy FE 64 pc! ;
10:56:13 <cleverdra> That's wierd code.  Theoretically, it reboots the computer.
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11:03:21 <cleverdra> http://www.nondot.org/sabre/os/files/Disk/HD_PORTS.asm
11:03:38 <cleverdra> HUZZAH.  My mommy told me that learning assembler would be good for me.
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13:34:17 <cleverdra> Thank you, Trey.
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13:34:35 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o geakazoid
13:34:38 <geakazoid> hello
13:34:40 <cleverdra> Hello, geekazoid.
13:34:51 --- topic: set to 'www.colorforth.com www.forth.org www.forth.com' by cleverdra
13:37:43 <cleverdra> http://users.evitech.fi/~tk/rt_html/rtgif003.htm looks interesting
13:45:29 * geakazoid is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on)
13:48:09 <geakazoid> i AM HERE
14:02:38 <geakazoid> hell
14:02:41 <geakazoid> hello
14:02:45 <geakazoid> I meant
14:02:48 <cleverdra> That's nice.
14:02:51 <cleverdra> Your client lied.
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14:07:13 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o adu
14:23:50 <geakazoid> what is colorforth? what is it focused on?
14:25:35 <cleverdra> www.colorforth.com talks about it
14:26:25 <cleverdra> It's a Forth that uses special tokens to drive the interpreter.  These tokens typically come out to color, so you have green words and reds words, etc, and these act differently.
14:26:44 <cleverdra> It's nice.  You can mix hex and decimal very readably, for instance, with no danger of conflict with a word in the dictionary.
14:28:27 <geakazoid> Is it from FORTH, Inc?
14:28:47 <cleverdra> No.
14:29:07 <cleverdra> <cleverdra> www.colorforth.com talks about it
14:29:35 <cleverdra> also http://www.mindspring.com/~chipchuck/
14:29:49 <geakazoid> Ok, I thought I read somewhere that Chuckl Moore used colorforth for some things
14:30:50 <cleverdra> Yes.  He invented it a few decades ago.
14:31:09 <cleverdra> I'm not quite sure about the times.
14:31:41 <geakazoid> You mean Chuck Moore invented colorforth? and he does not still have it at forth inc?
14:31:59 <cleverdra> He hasn't worked at Forth, Inc for a while now, geekazoid.
14:32:43 <geakazoid> oic, then is he retired?
14:32:44 <cleverdra> Since leaving Forth, Inc, Chuck has created cmForth, OK, Machine Forth, and Color Forth -- to name a few of his significantly new Forths.
14:32:55 <cleverdra> No, he's not retired, he's merely no longer working at Forth, Inc
14:33:23 <geakazoid> oic, ok so he is developing forth more for machine language types of use?
14:33:42 <cleverdra> He left to persue hardware, as he considered that an obstacle in good code.  Forth is the software solution, he says, but he wants a hardware solution also.  www.ultratechnology.com talks about this and www.colorforth.com has a link to one of his newer machines
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14:34:03 <cleverdra> geak, I don't understand the question.
14:34:04 <geakazoid> I am so knew to FORTH, I APPOLOGIZE FOR BEING SO IGNORANT
14:34:35 <cleverdra> geak, Machine Forth is the assembly language of one of his Forth machines, but cmForth and ColorForth are not any more machine-related than traditional Forth.
14:34:41 <cleverdra> Hello, jamc.
14:34:44 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o jamc
14:34:57 <jamc> hey hey
14:34:57 <geakazoid> A retired programmer suggested I check out FORTH because I want to create interactive courses online in 3D
14:35:19 <geakazoid> cleverdra so I am learning as much as I can
14:35:19 <cleverdra> What, like over the web?
14:35:57 <cleverdra> Like Java?  To do that in Forth you would need to write code for the host web browser.  A lot of work.
14:36:07 <geakazoid> cleverdra I want to create a set of CD/DVDs that have the software for clients to get on the net and learn online in 3D
14:36:13 <cleverdra> geak - oh, OK.
14:36:18 <cleverdra> That's cool.
14:36:37 <geakazoid> I have had this vision since 1993, but I had an Atari ST, if you know what I mean
14:37:02 <geakazoid> cleverdra I only knew BASIC
14:37:03 <cleverdra> You don't need complex hardware to do 3D enough to teach, but OK.
14:37:11 <cleverdra> Oh.
14:38:09 <geakazoid> cleverdra well, my retired programmer friend thought that FORTH  could offer the solutions to the problems I want to solve
14:38:31 <cleverdra> OK.  It doesn't have to be capitalized, btw.
14:38:44 <geakazoid> cleverdra you mean forth?
14:38:48 <cleverdra> Yes.
14:39:06 <cleverdra> Best solution that I see for what you want to do:
14:39:08 <geakazoid> cleverdra that is what I thought it was supposed to be written
14:39:34 <geakazoid> cleverdra I am listening
14:39:42 <cleverdra> 1) Learn Forth.  Spend some time just writing various Forth programs, use it to get close to your machine.  Enth is good for this, if probably somewhat shocking.
14:40:06 <geakazoid> cleverdra Enth? what is that?
14:40:09 <cleverdra> 2) Build an OS (or use one.. Enth, ColorForth) for your system, so all your user has to do is boot up your program and start learning
14:40:18 <cleverdra> enth is at pringle.sphosting.com, but wait a sec
14:40:52 <geakazoid> cleverdra ok, that sounds about right. I wanted an OS that could be booted from disk - CD etc...
14:41:02 <cleverdra> 3) Specify what kinds of hardware you'll support, or try to be very portable.  Write basic drivers for a bunch of video cards and abstract this into an API.  You might want to use 3D facilities if available, or do that in software.
14:41:31 <cleverdra> 4) build a TCP/IP API and do the same as 3) with NICs
14:41:37 <cleverdra> 5) write the rest of your system =)
14:41:52 <geakazoid> cleverdra with FORTH?
14:42:09 <cleverdra> This sounds like a lot of work, the most actually is probably in 5) and 3) -- though I think 3 more simply because I'm not terribly familiar with video drivers.
14:42:14 <cleverdra> geak - yes.  All of this with Forth.
14:43:18 <geakazoid> cleverdra okay, I am still, a novice, or hacker so to speak. I have learned a lot about programming logic but I need to get really nitty gritty on the hardware stuff
14:43:22 <cleverdra> geak - this is what I'd do.  You might want to work out a general design of what your program is going to do and be, before you start programming.  Don't set anything to hard, because you'll want to change it.
14:43:26 <cleverdra> OK.
14:43:37 <geakazoid> cleverdra should I take one of the forth classes or just teach my self?
14:44:00 <cleverdra> I dunno.  I've been teaching myself, but I've been doing it for I think a year now =)  A class might speed you along your way.
14:44:27 <geakazoid> cleverdra I want the online courses to also be able to interact over the net on the server my website is on so that students can chat and collaborate with each other
14:44:46 <geakazoid> cleverdra what do you teach?
14:44:57 <cleverdra> pringle.sphosting.com yet may be a good place to go, after you learn the basics of Forth.  Enth gives you very free access to the machine.  I've been writing drivers for basic PC components in it, like the PC Speaker and the keyboard.  Later today I'll probably start on a hard disk API.
14:45:05 <cleverdra> geak - I don't, sorry =)
14:45:24 <cleverdra> geak - the interact-over-the-net thing is fine, but you'll have to learn a great deal to do all this.
14:45:28 <geakazoid> I thought you said you do teach
14:45:35 <cleverdra> geak - no...
14:45:41 <cleverdra> <cleverdra> I dunno.  I've been teaching myself, but I've been doing it for I think a year now =)  A class might speed you along your way.
14:45:55 <geakazoid> oh, ok I can check out the Enth, it is still forth, I take it
14:45:56 <cleverdra> Oh.  I meant that I was learning on my own, not that I was teaching anyone else.
14:46:34 <geakazoid> cleverdra I was thinking about setting up an open source project at source forge and looking for people who are builind OS-like systems with forth
14:46:38 <cleverdra> Forth, Inc sells Forth systems also, and see www.forth.org for a list of Forths for various operating systems.  www.colorforth.com and pringle.sphosting.com have the only native (OS-less) Forths that I know of.
14:46:49 <Trey> geakazoid: cleverdra hasn't aged enough to drink yet ;-)
14:46:56 <cleverdra> geak - that's cool.
14:47:12 <geakazoid> cleverdra I was thinking of calling it GO FORTH
14:47:17 <cleverdra> Trey - eh?  Why'd you say such a mean thing like that?
14:47:24 <cleverdra> geak =)
14:47:28 <cleverdra> GO FORTH AND LEARN
14:47:31 <Trey> Well, _leagaly_.
14:47:52 <Trey> Ugh.  Spelling failure.  Fun halted.
14:47:58 <geakazoid> cleverdra Trey well either you are under 21 or you are not fermented yet
14:48:18 * cleverdra checks himself.  unfermented.
14:48:20 <Trey> That amounts to about the same thing, doesn't it?
14:48:33 <cleverdra> err, I mean, I'm under 21.  /me shrugs.
14:48:52 <geakazoid> cleverdra hehehehehe... my first computer is probably older than you
14:48:58 --- topic: set to 'www.colorforth.com pringle.sphostinc.com www.forth.org www.forth.com www.clienux.com' by cleverdra
14:49:17 <cleverdra> geak - so?  My father has an old HP programmable HP calculator older than I.
14:49:35 <cleverdra> /anyway/, let's move along.  Trey's already out of the running.
14:49:35 <geakazoid> cleverdra yeah, but I am not your father... hehehehehehe
14:50:00 <Trey> Running!?
14:50:06 <geakazoid> cleverdra I really do not care how old you are, my youngest brother is 17
14:50:09 <cleverdra> Trey - remember?  You typoed.
14:50:40 * cleverdra digs into channel logs for is KBRDY word.
14:51:04 <cleverdra> hex : reboot 0 40 @ 72 + ! kbrdy FE 64 pc! ;
14:51:16 <cleverdra> hex : (kbrdy) begin 60 pc@ dup 1 and 0= if exit then drop again ; : kbrdy begin 64 pc@ dup 1 and if drop (kbrdy) then 2 and 0= until ;
14:51:18 <geakazoid> cleverdra But I will tell you what is not fair, I have spent thousands of dollars on PCs of *hit but now I go to Fry's and buy a PC a zillion times better for a fraction of the cost
14:51:28 <cleverdra> hex : LEDon kbrdy ED 60 pc! kbrdy 60 pc! ;
14:51:43 <Trey> geakazoid: Amen.
14:51:46 <cleverdra> Yeah, I know, KBRDY is complex.
14:52:27 <cleverdra> geak - go to www.ultratechnology.com and spend $100 on an MuP21 kit.  There's a nice Forth machine for you.  F21 is way better, but it's not in production yet.
14:52:46 <geakazoid> cleverdra tell me more about it
14:52:47 * Trey wants to go to Fry's today and buy a new machine :-(
14:53:15 <geakazoid> cleverdra In the 1970s I could have bought a HeathKit Robot to learn Robitic Programming with BASIC for $3000
14:53:25 <geakazoid> Robotic
14:53:49 <cleverdra> geak - well, F21 is freakishly cool, with unbelieable innovations and a design... I don't want to talk about it :-(  Soon it will go into production, and I will get it.
14:54:03 <cleverdra> geak - well, that sounds pretty cool -- except you should've used Forth =)
14:54:21 <Trey> cleverdra: Fox will actually build the F21?
14:54:24 <cleverdra> I think you can do robotic programming with Forth today cheaply with Legos.
14:54:40 <geakazoid> cleverdra ok, look, I have been Dreaming of creating a VR system for over 10-15 years... now tell me more!
14:54:58 <cleverdra> Trey - prototypes have already been made.  I dunno when/if it'll be really put on a production line.
14:55:13 <cleverdra> geak - tell you more?  About what?
14:55:21 <geakazoid> cleverdra
14:55:45 <geakazoid> well, I want an OS, that is Interactive Multimedia design for Virtual Reality Immersion
14:56:00 <geakazoid> cleverdra can this thing do that kind of thing?
14:56:04 <cleverdra> OK.
14:56:08 <cleverdra> Yes, Forth can do that.
14:56:38 <cleverdra> It's also the only language I'd consider doing that sort of thing in, though I know a bunch -- oh!  wait a second.
14:56:56 <geakazoid> cleverdra how many languages do you know?
14:56:59 <cleverdra> Somebody's already done some good VR stuff in Forth.
14:57:13 <cleverdra> I know quite a number of languages, you want a list?  Wait a sec.
14:57:46 <geakazoid> cleverdra mostly, I founded a Non-profit organization and cannot afford to pay for more hardware and software so I have to build things my self, usually
14:57:51 <cleverdra> geak - http://www.immersive.com/
14:58:49 <cleverdra> geak - letsee.  I know these languages well:
14:58:58 <geakazoid> cleverdra thanks, I did dl (I dunno if people say dl anymore) it the other day and did not get it to run. But I just put a few forth's on my machine a week or so ago
15:00:05 <cleverdra> Forth, Perl, C, Ruby, Python.  I can read these languages:  C++, Java, assembler, objc, ... oh, more I'm sure.  I'm acquanted with these languages: INTERCAL, dis, malbolge, befunge, Pliant.  Oh, and I also know Scheme well.  Really, there are lots, but I only ever use Forth much anymore.
15:00:11 <cleverdra> and assembler, in the context of Forth.
15:00:30 <cleverdra> geak - oh, you've tried www.immersive.com already?  OK.
15:00:42 <geakazoid> cleverdra ok, well, do you do programming for a living?
15:00:51 <cleverdra> Actually Pliant and Scheme should be in my 'know well' section.
15:01:20 <cleverdra> geak - no.  I'm entering my senior year of HS, and have been programming for a number of years.
15:01:38 <geakazoid> cleverdra well do you want to do a project at the source forge?
15:02:21 * cleverdra shrugs.
15:02:54 <cleverdra> I'd like to help, but I'm busy most of the time.  Just come in here some time and tell me your sourceforge address, and I'll put it in the topic or something.
15:03:32 <geakazoid> cleverdra when I get one... I just signed up yesterday and have not figured out how to set anything up yet
15:03:39 <cleverdra> Trey - have you tried to move any text files to Enth from another operating system?
15:03:48 * cleverdra nods.
15:05:03 * cleverdra guesses that Trey is away now.
15:06:40 <cleverdra> OK.  I'm gone.
15:06:42 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving)
15:20:35 <Trey> :-(
15:21:06 * Trey has spent the last few minutes pricing machines.
15:21:42 <geakazoid> trey and
15:27:38 * Trey wants a new toy for FlightSimulator 2000
15:27:41 <Trey> Badly.
15:28:03 <geakazoid> hum...
15:28:33 <Trey> To go along with my private pilot lessons I've started recently.
15:28:51 <Trey> I have the yoke and pedals, I just need a machine that doesn't suck.
15:29:01 * Trey is away: babysitting. [17:28]
15:52:37 --- quit: adu (IRCStep)
16:11:49 --- quit: jamc (Started wasting time elsewhere)
17:45:36 <geakazoid> hi
18:08:49 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-88-56.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
18:26:14 <geakazoid> hello adu
18:26:20 <adu> hi
18:26:29 <geakazoid> are you a forth programmer?
18:26:33 <adu> do i know u?
18:26:36 <adu> yes
18:26:36 <geakazoid> know
18:26:39 <geakazoid> I mean no
18:26:51 <geakazoid> I am just here
18:27:04 <adu> : yes r> dup 1 swap >r too? ;
18:27:09 <adu> hehehe
18:28:39 <geakazoid> -)
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18:47:54 <colorg> werph.
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19:26:51 <geakazoid> does anyone know of a text editor that is executable and programmed in forth?
19:28:45 --- quit: adu (IRCStep)
19:30:06 <colorg> geakazoid:  ask on Usenet comp.lang.forth
19:32:16 <geakazoid> colorg I will but my news is down on my machine
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19:36:49 <Jmck> I know of a couple. Leo Wong has one on his HelloForth website. Bruce McFarland (sp?) wrote one called BMW I think. And Rick VanNorman of Swiftforth wrote one using his own flavor of Forth for DOS/DPMI
19:38:43 <geakazoid> Jmck can I dl it and run it as an executable?
19:44:03 <Jmck> Geak, sorry, I don't think so. Leo Wong's, maybe.
19:48:27 <geakazoid> Jmck ok
19:48:52 <colorg> one should be pretty portable
19:50:18 <colorg> I think BMW is the one that does window "slats" like my X Windows slats script for X with no windowmanager which is like emacs which got slats from TECO which got them from the primordial ooze
19:50:56 <geakazoid> colorg I am using MS windows and have yet to put forth on my Linux machine
19:51:26 <geakazoid> Jmck I am looking at http://www.albany.net/~hello/ but where is the text editor?
19:51:35 <Jmck> colorg, that's right. It and Leo Wong's Wink and Ink can be found here: http://www.albany.net/~hello/forth.htm  And geak, Wink and Ink are exe's
19:52:16 <geakazoid> Jmck oh, yes, I dl'd them a few days ago: they are like DOS editors
19:52:19 <colorg> I think it's M?cFarlane
19:53:36 <Jmck> Yeah - what OS are you looking for?
19:54:38 <geakazoid> Jmck right now I have it ME... (ME because it is the machine on dsl)
19:56:00 <geakazoid> Jmck I was thinking along the lines of http://www.concentric.net/~jkelm/win32for/classlib/index.htm
20:10:28 <Jmck> Geak-looks like it could do the trick. And Win32For is free for the download. I'm using SwiftForth and I'm still learning. They say a text editor is a good proj for beginners...
20:11:08 <Jmck> Gotta go. Later folks
20:11:59 --- part: Jmck left #forth
20:12:34 <colorg> There's one function that differentiates a text editor from a black editor;  insert (and delete, the opposite)
20:16:37 <colorg> s/black/block
20:18:15 --- join: notjunkd (junk@p61-max2.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz) joined #forth
20:32:56 --- topic: set to 'colorg: Forth can fix that.' by Trey
20:33:54 * Trey wonders if Carson will "get it".
20:35:20 --- quit: notjunkd (<I 3AM 4BRASIL6!!!!!!!!!!!)
20:42:20 <edrx> there's a typo in the topic: it's "sphosting", not "sphostinc"
20:42:44 <Trey> I fixed it :-)
20:45:25 <colorg> heh
20:45:50 <Trey> I laughed out loud when I read your post.
20:45:59 * colorg wonders if Chuck read the Linux asm("")s list
20:46:05 <colorg> :o)
20:54:34 <colorg> "But it can't be comercial, there's no bloated crap written in it!"
20:56:15 <Trey> In all fairness, he didn't have the benefit of earlier threads in c.l.f.
21:01:36 <colorg> He's a troll.
21:03:08 <Trey> I don't agree.  He just looks like a troll to the regulars.
21:03:51 <colorg> He's confrontational. 
21:04:06 <Trey> And Jeff Fox isn't?
21:05:26 <colorg> Jeff is paranoid. He's also at least interested in the truth. The new guy's a troll.
21:06:11 <Trey> We'll see.  I suspect he'll grow tired of clf fairly quickly, making him not much of a troll.
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21:19:03 <Trey> Good night, all.
21:19:07 * Trey is away: sleeping [23:18]
21:19:50 <ree> later trey
21:29:37 <colorg> hi ree
21:31:34 <geakazoid> good night
21:31:46 --- quit: geakazoid (Leaving...  <k!15b8>)
21:35:14 <ree> hey colorg
21:35:17 <ree> bbiab 
21:35:48 --- quit: ree ()
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.07.17