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00:18:30 <colorg> I use Pico and ed.
00:18:40 <colorg> oops, wrong window
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01:48:57 <notjunkd> * You have 613 experience points and need 387 to advance.
01:48:59 <notjunkd> i440r
01:49:01 <notjunkd> how do i advance?
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02:42:43 <notjunkd> i ticked him off good there
02:42:47 --- quit: notjunkd ([hienoa] - your ass is glowing!)
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02:49:46 <ree> hey i440r bud =)
02:52:25 <I440r> hi
02:52:28 <I440r> playing mud
02:52:32 <I440r> shud be sleeping :P
02:54:15 <ree> hehe
02:54:45 <I440r> :)
02:54:52 <I440r> telnet moongate.net 4000 :)
03:01:40 <ree> hehe
03:01:42 <ree> I am on there
03:01:47 <ree> ree
03:01:52 <ree> I'm a ranger ogre =)
03:02:14 <I440r> hehe
03:02:19 <I440r> im a ranger too
03:02:21 <I440r> rangers are teh best
03:02:23 <I440r> u get spells
03:02:23 <ree> cool
03:02:29 <ree> I didn't know that
03:02:35 <I440r> but i made teh mistake of being a humnan
03:02:36 <ree> I just chose it because it looked cool =)
03:02:40 <ree> hah
03:02:52 <I440r> u get spells :)
03:02:55 <I440r> say this
03:02:56 <I440r> score
03:03:05 <I440r> it will tell you all kinds of info
03:03:28 <ree> this is pretty neat
03:03:33 <I440r> say inventory tells u what u got
03:03:34 <ree> no ascii art?
03:03:41 <I440r> actually yes and no
03:03:45 <ree> heh, well, I need to disconnect
03:03:56 <ree> this might be a good type of interface for dist ;)
03:03:58 <I440r> ur player wont be saved
03:04:00 <adu> ree =)
03:04:05 <ree> yeah, I know
03:04:06 <ree> hey adu
03:04:07 <I440r> :)
03:04:13 <adu> hmm
03:04:16 <ree> I'll redo him later when I have time
03:04:20 <ree> I need to get windows setup 
03:04:21 <I440r> i just died again :P
03:04:24 <ree> hah
03:04:29 <ree> pesky human
03:04:36 <adu> take care
03:04:38 <ree> how are you adu
03:04:39 <I440r> ur only dead for a small ammount of time :)
03:04:39 <adu> lol
03:04:41 <I440r> nite dood
03:04:50 <adu> who's going?
03:05:13 <adu> ree: i'm very good
03:05:23 <adu> just got back from vacation
03:05:30 <ree> wow
03:05:37 <ree> I wish I could have a vacation
03:05:43 <adu> and i've managed to get out of the house just about every day for smoking
03:06:23 <ree> hah
03:06:29 <ree> not quiting? =)
03:06:37 <adu> no i like it too much
03:06:42 <adu> anyway i'm working on this lang
03:06:56 <adu> and i'm writing a compiler/interpreter for it in perl
03:07:04 <adu> i've already got a shell for it
03:07:16 <adu> just need to fill in some gaps
03:07:28 <I440r> ohhh
03:07:29 <I440r> hehe
03:07:33 <ree> heh
03:07:39 <adu> ohhh?
03:07:44 <ree> written in perl ;)
03:07:55 <adu> why does everybody laugh at me when i say that?
03:08:02 <ree> not laughing
03:08:07 <ree> just find it amusing 
03:08:10 <I440r> :)
03:08:14 <adu> perl is especially good at text processing
03:08:17 <ree> being that I am into low level coding 
03:09:12 <adu> well ok whatever
03:10:34 <ree> heh, not saying anything bad about it for sure
03:10:38 <ree> if it works well, that is great
03:12:04 <adu> cool then
03:12:52 <ree> I thought you were working on a asm language before
03:12:54 <ree> portable
03:13:23 <adu> same thing
03:13:28 <adu> i don't get it
03:13:54 <adu> why do people hate something, especially converters, depending on what they're written in
03:14:19 <adu> compilers don't really need to be optimised themselves, they just need to make optimised code
03:15:57 <ree> well, I like a whole unified approach
03:16:04 <ree> more of a passion for excellence/beauty
03:16:14 <adu> ya same thing, only different iteration
03:16:17 <ree> taking programming in a direction of a art form
03:16:30 <ree> but then again, everyone's opinion is slightly different
03:16:56 <adu> well i was trying to make a unified assembler environment
03:17:27 <adu> and have an extensive macro arch, but my lang came out of a desire for no keywords, then it just fit
03:17:37 <adu> so now its different, but does the same thing
03:17:44 <ree> well, to make something unified, I think it needs to be taken a step further than just environment
03:18:42 <adu> y?
03:19:00 <ree> so it can expand indefinitely
03:19:05 <ree> without having to be rethought
03:19:54 <adu> howd you come to that conclusion?
03:20:39 <adu> are you saying all environments are stupid?
03:20:45 <ree> well
03:21:18 <ree> I think one needs to cross the threshold of programming with a language and a language that is the actual programming itself
03:22:03 <adu> asm?
03:22:29 <adu> but what most people think of as asm isn't the actual programming
03:22:43 <adu> its a hll in itself that has lots of macros and definitions to help you out
03:23:07 <adu> the only lll as i see it is making an executable with a hexeditor
03:23:46 <ree> well, actually
03:23:53 <ree> lll has a one to one level of comparison
03:24:00 <ree> they are mneumonics
03:24:06 <ree> but they are direct representations 
03:24:20 <adu> not all of them
03:24:24 <ree> true
03:24:29 <ree> everything else is assembler specific
03:24:38 <adu> ya
03:25:06 <adu> well ppc for example has predefined psudeo mnemonics
03:25:22 <adu> and they simply macros
03:25:27 <ree> yeah
03:25:39 <adu> so thats not assembler specific
03:25:55 <adu> its optional, but.....
03:26:00 <adu> what were we talking about?
03:26:04 <ree> haha
03:26:14 <ree> unified structures
03:26:17 <ree> I believe
03:26:23 <ree> programming language environments
03:26:24 <ree> and what not
03:26:37 <adu> things
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03:27:17 <s[e]th> hiho ^^
03:27:26 <adu> but what use is it to simplify a complex structure to something unified if it only makes it more complicated to use?
03:28:04 <ree> hey seth
03:28:16 <adu> i suppose thats where the art form comes in...
03:28:18 <ree> adu, so the computer itself can use it
03:28:24 <ree> adu, taking the human factor out of it
03:28:37 <adu> hehe
03:28:38 <s[e]th> i really want to know more about forth but i can't find a site that encourage me to program in forth
03:28:38 <ree> and yeah, that is where the artistic quality comes in
03:28:57 <adu> www.forth.org didn't help?
03:29:11 <adu> its got some CGI examples
03:30:00 <s[e]th> i already went there but the pb is that i didn't know what kind of program i can make in forth
03:30:07 <adu> ppl actually used forth to make CGI scripts
03:30:29 <ree> seth, it really depends on the interpreter
03:30:36 <ree> and for what operating system you are using
03:30:51 <ree> you can make fully functional programs 
03:30:55 <s[e]th> linux x86
03:30:56 <ree> that work in X or windows
03:31:21 <adu> you can make any kind of program you want in forth
03:31:27 <ree> yep
03:31:35 <adu> in any language at that
03:31:37 <ree> hehe, well, I better go 
03:31:45 <adu> cya
03:31:51 <ree> before my mom kills me because I don't have her labels done =)
03:31:52 <adu> it just takes more time to do some things
03:31:59 <ree> great talking with you adu
03:32:04 <adu> u2 ree
03:32:09 <ree> later adu, i440r, seth 
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03:32:28 <adu> seth: what kind of program do you want to make?
03:32:43 <s[e]th> i know i can make all kind of prog (like all programming language) but what are the kind of program that forth is made for
03:32:46 <s[e]th> ?
03:34:02 <adu> small programs
03:34:16 <adu> its like C and the shell combined
03:34:34 <s[e]th> ok, that's why you talked about CGI examples
03:34:41 <adu> ppl have made database programs
03:34:56 <adu> i'm not sure about word proc tho
03:35:20 <adu> ya i thought the cgi examples were cool
03:35:21 <s[e]th> how ! i've to leave
03:35:26 <s[e]th> see you soon
03:35:26 <adu> bye
03:35:47 <s[e]th> i stay login only to see when Fare arrive
03:35:49 <s[e]th> bye
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09:49:16 <futhin> hey all!
09:49:34 <edrx> hi and bye :(
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09:55:37 <speuler> g'day
10:43:49 <speuler> time's up
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13:24:07 <edrx> hi adu!
13:24:14 <adu> hi
13:24:41 <rob_ert> Hi everybody =)
13:24:49 <edrx> could you give the details of your system again? Which OS? Which Emacs?
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17:12:23 <geakazoid> are there any FORTH  programmers here?
17:31:15 <BorgHOME_> yah
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17:57:08 <geakazoid> Oh, hello... a man in the Silicon Valley advised to check out FORTH for some projects I am working on
17:57:20 <geakazoid> Are you in one of the FIGs?
17:57:24 <adu> and
17:57:32 <adu> oops
17:58:08 <adu> FIGs are for hungry ppl
17:58:11 <adu> =P
17:58:24 <geakazoid> Hungry, what do you mean?
17:58:45 <adu> figs grow on trees forthers dont
17:58:48 <adu> i don't know i'm hungry
17:59:13 <geakazoid> adu are you a FORTH programmer though, that is the question?
17:59:26 <adu> o kinda
17:59:32 <adu> i've done some programming in it
17:59:48 <adu> nothing big tho, can i help you with a ?n
18:00:34 <geakazoid> well, I've been doing some very primitive tutorial samples on win32forth
18:00:42 <adu> ok
18:02:23 <adu> and?
18:03:01 <BorgHOME_> <- not in any FIGs
18:05:32 <geakazoid> sorry, I need to leave my PC for minute... and I tried loading a .f called textedit.f, the first time it worked but now I get
18:05:46 <geakazoid> error c:\program.f file not found
18:09:32 <geakazoid> My goal is to develop some software for MS-Win9x/ME and Linux (Mandrake is what I use), and I want to do find out how a simple text editor can be contructed as a sample project
18:12:16 <adu> in forth?
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18:12:29 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard
18:12:38 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
18:12:41 <adu> hmm so you can't use bigFORTH?
18:12:48 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +oo adu I440r
18:12:53 <adu> =)
18:12:56 <geakazoid> well, my friend is a retied programmer and told me that FORTH would suit the needs of the project I have been designing
18:13:10 <adu> o ok
18:13:24 <adu> i think bigFORTH works on Win32 as well, not sure
18:13:37 <adu> but its very suited for applications, it has a GUI library
18:13:45 <geakazoid> TheBlueWizard I am just learning, I had downloaded a few FORTHs and win32forth was easy to start
18:14:02 <TheBlueWizard> I see
18:14:11 <geakazoid> adu yes, it is working ok on my windoze machine
18:14:47 <geakazoid> but I think there is something wrong because it has this Error: C:\PROGRAM.F file not found
18:15:24 <geakazoid> TheBlueWizard I have not put it on my Mandrake Linux machine because I downloaded gfroth and it seems different
18:15:35 <geakazoid> than the other Forths
18:16:03 <geakazoid> adu where are the gui libraries?
18:16:08 <TheBlueWizard> I haven't played with gforth...I know I440r hates it
18:16:37 <geakazoid> TheBlueWizard I got onto their mailing list and it seems they are trying to change syntax like from "." to ","
18:16:54 <geakazoid> on the compiler: I did not want to get into that if I was learning
18:17:27 <adu> it comes with it i think its called MINOS
18:17:49 <TheBlueWizard> geakazoid: what?  that's crazy.... DOT means print a number, COMMA compiles the literal into dictionary
18:18:44 <geakazoid> here is a copy of part of the email:
18:18:45 <geakazoid> [Also posted to comp.lang.forth]
18:18:45 <geakazoid> We are currently thinking about changing Gforth to a somewhat unusual
18:18:45 <geakazoid> mixture of direct and indirect threading.  Benefits: direct threaded
18:18:45 <geakazoid> speed without requiring architecture-specific machine code generation.
18:18:45 <geakazoid> Disadvantages: The new scheme requires a new image format, and some
18:18:47 <geakazoid> practices used with traditional implementations don't work as usual;
18:18:49 <geakazoid> In particular, COMPILE, is no longer equivalent to ",".
18:19:33 <geakazoid> well, maybe I got a bit confused, but still I do not need to get into wierd trips if I just need to learn how to use the language
18:20:29 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...it's a good idea to learn the "standard" Forth first...then you can branch out into whatever flavor suits you....
18:21:11 <TheBlueWizard> trouble is that the "standard" thing is hard to nail down....like trying to nail a jello to a wall :)
18:21:34 <geakazoid> I have noticed
18:21:45 <geakazoid> What is a standard distribution?
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18:22:45 <TheBlueWizard> standard *distribution*?  none that I'm aware of....there is an ANS Forth standard, but I get the impression it is not exactly popular
18:22:46 <adu> lol
18:22:54 <futhin> hello
18:22:56 <futhin> hey adu
18:23:00 <adu> hey futhin
18:23:09 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +oo futhin geakazoid
18:23:12 <adu> futhin: so what is your fav lang?
18:24:38 <futhin> adu: there's no perfect language, therefore i'll be making 2 or 3 levels of language.  the higher level language will be the easiest to learn and use for basic things.. it will resemble MUF and the bottom language will be Forth
18:25:00 <adu> MUF?
18:26:31 <futhin> multi-user forth.  it's not forth.. but it's forth-like
18:26:32 <TheBlueWizard> Multi-User Forth?  just a wild guess....
18:26:58 * TheBlueWizard blinks in utter surprise!
18:27:00 <adu> interesting
18:27:07 <TheBlueWizard> I guessed right!!!!
18:27:33 <geakazoid> lol, if a newbie can't get confused enuff!
18:27:46 * TheBlueWizard make a weird dance, like a football player do after scoring a spectacular touchdown
18:27:54 <futhin> heh
18:28:25 <TheBlueWizard> too bad I haven't the football to spike the ground with though....
18:28:32 <futhin> adu: MUF is the online programming language for TinyMUCK servers.. it's pretty cool
18:28:42 <futhin> thebluewizard: spike the computer
18:28:45 <adu> wierd
18:28:52 * TheBlueWizard laughs
18:29:47 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: so you've dabbled in TinyMUCK?  I have heard of one MUD using Forth like language.....do you know where I can find TinyMUCK material?
18:30:04 <futhin> thebluewizard: what operating system?
18:30:19 <geakazoid> ok, now does anyone know what this means? Error: C:\PROGRAM.F file not found
18:30:33 <TheBlueWizard> for Linux :)
18:30:38 <futhin> thebluewizard: do a search for fuzzball
18:30:44 <TheBlueWizard> source code greatly prefered
18:30:46 <geakazoid> yes c: for linux
18:30:51 <geakazoid> lol
18:31:03 <futhin> thebluewizard: http://www.belfry.com/fuzzball/
18:31:04 <futhin> yeah
18:31:09 <geakazoid> noone has a windoze clue for me?
18:31:10 <futhin> you get the source code
18:31:35 <futhin> geekazoid: it means file not found :)
18:32:00 <futhin> geakazoid: did you get the error after running a program?
18:32:24 <geakazoid> yes, I downloaded a texteditor then ran the exedit.f
18:32:36 <geakazoid> it worked the first time then I got the error
18:32:43 <futhin> TheBlueWizard:https://sourceforge.net/projects/fbmuck/
18:32:58 <TheBlueWizard> thanks for the link!
18:34:17 <geakazoid> futhin do yo have a clue?
18:34:46 <futhin> geak: i need more info
18:35:17 <futhin> geak: it's probably a pathfile issue or you need to put program.f in C:\ or whatever
18:35:55 <TheBlueWizard> or set PATH environment...read the doc....
18:36:26 <geakazoid> TheBlueWizard ok where is it? the doc? in win32forth?
18:37:02 <TheBlueWizard> I never use win32forth, so I can't be of much help there....sowwy!
18:37:15 <TheBlueWizard> I am just making wild guesses
18:37:16 <geakazoid> futhin don't you know?
18:37:48 <futhin> geak: i know all!  give me more info :/
18:38:29 * TheBlueWizard gives futhin info cookies ;)
18:38:47 <geakazoid> well win32forth is installed in c:/programs/win32for
18:38:48 <TheBlueWizard> I like to make wisecrack remarks ;)
18:40:33 <geakazoid> I tried some samples from http://www.concentric.net/~jkelm/win32for/classlib/index.htm and loaded the source file
18:41:07 <geakazoid> is worked once or twice then gave me errors. I ran make win32forth and make winview a few times but that did not help
18:42:21 <geakazoid> I re-installed thinking I might have inadvertanlty added a word with some samples from http://www.sunterr.demon.co.uk/TutFile2/header2.htm
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18:47:08 <geakazoid> hum...
18:48:54 <geakazoid> ok, then... what applications have been written in FORTH that are good examples of using FORTH?
18:55:02 <BorgHOME_> ftp://ftp.netwinder.org/users/e/elafo/src/soli.seq
18:55:18 <BorgHOME_> it's not a big app...but IMHO it's good code.
18:58:03 <BorgHOME_> http://home.earthlink.net/~neilbawd/  is also interesting, although I'm not fond of his coding style,
18:58:45 <BorgHOME_> http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html  (this is a HUGE archive)
18:59:53 <geakazoid> which FORTH are you using?
19:02:41 <BorgHOME_> me?  F-PC (DOS) and Quartus (Palm)
19:03:51 <geakazoid> for commercial or hobby?
19:04:49 <BorgHOME_> hobby
19:05:24 <geakazoid> what have you been designing and developing?
19:08:27 <BorgHOME_> just crtypto....currently designing my own forth machine.
19:08:39 <geakazoid> what are you planning on doing with it?
19:08:53 <BorgHOME_> Everything. :)
19:09:01 <adu> heh
19:10:18 <geakazoid> like program or rebuild your pc?
19:10:36 <BorgHOME_> no.
19:10:46 <geakazoid> make tea?
19:10:47 <BorgHOME_> a separate, from scratch computer system.
19:11:20 <geakazoid> I heard you can make an OS with FORTH
19:11:24 <TheBlueWizard> a homebrew computer, eh?
19:11:31 <BorgHOME_> yes...but that would be missing the point.
19:11:38 <BorgHOME_> TheBlueWizard: yah.
19:12:05 <TheBlueWizard> there's a newsgroup devoted to homebrew stuff
19:12:10 <geakazoid> what is the machine for?
19:12:27 <BorgHOME_> yes...there is almost no traffic and its not machine like I want ot do.
19:12:41 <BorgHOME_> geakazoid: running forth very fast.
19:13:02 <geakazoid> you just want to run FORTH fast, that is it no other projects?
19:13:45 <BorgHOME_> it's a forth machine to allow me to create other things.
19:14:00 <geakazoid> well, that is what I am asking, like what other things?
19:14:29 <geakazoid> a programming station? server? etc?
19:15:08 <BorgHOME_> a zillion things....lessee....wearable computer, LCD interface, audio processing, MP3 decoder interface, motor control, robotics, AI, text editor, etc, etc...
19:15:11 <BorgHOME_> Everything.
19:15:28 <geakazoid> ok, how do you have the time to do all that for a hobby?
19:15:46 <BorgHOME_> It will be faster to do on this machine.
19:16:01 <BorgHOME_> it's almost functionnal...been workin on it for most of a year.
19:16:42 <geakazoid> But how do you find the time?
19:16:49 <TheBlueWizard> if he can code each app as one liners (e.g. text editor = one line code, etc.), then he'd do it in a week! :-D
19:17:08 <BorgHOME_> I work on the Verilog description of the CPU in my spare time.
19:17:16 <BorgHOME_> The rest will be the same.
19:17:22 <geakazoid> that would mean he would have to start out with a dictionary or library though
19:17:29 <BorgHOME_> I'm in no hurry.
19:17:43 <BorgHOME_> yes...the first compiler will have to be written by hand..no problem.
19:18:23 <geakazoid> do you have some of this on a web page?
19:18:36 <BorgHOME_> not yet.
19:18:45 <BorgHOME_> code is not ready for release.
19:18:58 <BorgHOME_> and even then, it's only Verilog.
19:19:13 <BorgHOME_> You need a platform to implement it on...and that's not done.
19:20:31 <geakazoid> well, I will be back, I have to go get printer paper...
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19:35:39 <TheBlueWizard> gotta go...bye all
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20:46:54 <cleverdra> Hey, #Forth
20:47:42 <notjunkd> hi there
20:48:57 * Trey has returned
20:49:01 <Trey> Howdy cleverdra.
20:49:18 * Trey will sleep soon.
20:49:19 <cleverdra> Hi notjunkd, Trey.
20:49:39 <cleverdra> How're things going with Color Forth, Trey?
20:50:11 <Trey> I haven't had much time recently to play with it.
20:50:43 * cleverdra nods.
20:51:57 <cleverdra> My keyboard controlling words, the ones I put in the topic a few days ago, do not work on my machine :-/.  Darn.
20:52:35 <cleverdra> There must be a way, though, because my keyboard's LEDs and typematic rate are controlled at all.  Just not through port 64h.
20:53:46 * geakazoid is gone, autoaway/10m (l!on)
20:54:21 <cleverdra> I've been using the stack pointer in .TASKS to transfer values, also.  Just store to it, and then in that task a DUP with a stackdepth of zero will recover the value.
20:57:35 <Trey> Evil Incarnate (tm)
21:11:57 <cleverdra> That's not evil... just unportable.
21:13:22 <Trey> Between revisions of Enth, probably.
21:13:37 * Trey falls asleep at the keyboard.
21:13:40 * Trey is idle: sleeping
21:13:55 * cleverdra shrugs.
21:14:10 <cleverdra> I'm not doing this in a program, just when I want to transfer a value.
21:14:33 <cleverdra> My list of required Flux words:  MS AT-XY PC! PC@ KEY
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23:12:37 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o adu
23:12:41 <cleverdra> 'lo, adu
23:12:47 <adu> hi
23:13:12 <adu> i'm wondering
23:13:33 <cleverdra> ya?
23:14:01 <adu> whether there are any namespace clashes between forth and scheme
23:14:32 <cleverdra> I'm not sure what you mean.  They use the same word names for some obvious cases.
23:14:57 <adu> well i'm sure if and so no
23:15:00 <adu> dup?
23:15:01 <adu> hmm no
23:15:25 <cleverdra> I don't parse "well i'm sure if and so no"
23:15:36 <cleverdra> + - * /
23:16:11 <adu> o thats right
23:16:18 <cleverdra> Of course, Scheme and Forth share the distinction of not having a set 'system' wordlist.
23:16:31 <cleverdra> You can have s+ s- s* s/ or plus minus times divide =)
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23:42:21 <cleverdra> Why do you ask, adu?
23:43:11 <adu> i'm trying to design a language system
23:46:03 <cleverdra> OK.
23:46:11 <cleverdra> What does that mean? =)
23:48:02 <adu> i don't know
23:48:11 <adu> i'll tell you when i'm done
23:48:47 <adu> hehe
23:51:10 <cleverdra> OK =)
23:51:27 --- topic: set to 'www.colorforth.com www.forth.org www.forth.com' by cleverdra
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.07.16