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07:36:35 <edrx> hi clev
07:37:07 <edrx> bye clev - no time to kill now :(
07:38:46 <cleverdra> hi edrx
07:38:50 <cleverdra> bye edrx
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09:53:25 <Trey> Thanks, ChanServ.
09:53:28 * Trey has returned
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09:54:56 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o Trey
09:57:58 <Trey> Good morning, cleverdra.
09:58:10 <cleverdra> g'morning, Trey
10:13:53 * Trey is idle: back to work.
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17:55:33 <adu> hi nj
19:08:54 --- nick: adu -> adu_movie
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19:12:25 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:12:29 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o adu_movie
19:15:33 * Trey has returned
19:15:35 <Trey> Howdy TheBlueWizard
19:17:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Trey
19:18:02 --- nick: adu_movie -> adu
19:18:12 <adu> phew
19:18:17 <adu> tbw!!!!
19:18:18 <TheBlueWizard> hmm?
19:18:24 <TheBlueWizard> hiya adu
19:19:40 <adu> forester
19:20:22 <TheBlueWizard> huh?
19:20:32 <adu> ww (wrong window)
19:20:47 <TheBlueWizard> heh
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19:33:48 <colorg> 3 4 + x 0000007
19:36:29 <adu> eh?
19:36:56 <colorg> Hi
19:39:16 <adu> hi
19:39:29 <adu> what language does this look like?
19:39:31 <Trey> How long should I wait before I say "hi"?
19:39:31 <adu> main(argc:int argv':string):int = (
19:39:31 <adu>   1..argc-1, i:(
19:39:31 <adu>     argv'i'0="-"?
19:39:31 <adu>       argv'i'1(
19:39:32 <adu>         <"h" put("hi")
19:39:32 <adu>         <"t" put("there")))
19:39:34 <adu>   0>)
19:40:18 <Trey> Phunky.
19:40:20 <colorg> That looks like Cadu
19:40:26 <adu> hehe
19:40:30 <adu> Cadu, i like that
19:41:00 <adu> i'm making a language, and it has no keywords
19:41:07 <adu> just alot of operators
19:41:09 <colorg> Trey, how many VGA cards DON'T do a horizontal sync interrupt?
19:41:23 <Trey> Lots of them.
19:41:32 <colorg> adu in #forth, operators are keywords dude
19:41:37 <colorg> dang
19:41:43 <adu> i know...
19:41:47 <Trey> Why, colorg?
19:42:01 <TheBlueWizard> adu: um...is int a keyword?
19:42:10 <colorg> Trey to sync an OS to, like the Amiga
19:42:18 <adu> no
19:42:27 <adu> but s4 and u1 are:
19:42:29 <adu> inD...
19:42:29 <adu> put(:string ...):void
19:42:29 <adu> :int:s4
19:42:29 <adu> :string':u1
19:42:33 <TheBlueWizard> then what is int then?
19:42:42 <Trey> colorg: hmmm.
19:42:42 <TheBlueWizard> ah
19:42:44 <adu> its a typedef for convinience
19:43:14 <colorg> Trey:  but alas, the PC just ain't no multimedia box
19:43:16 <Trey> Mastabatory Gymnastics
19:43:26 <adu> abatory?
19:43:42 <Trey> adu's keyword-free language.
19:43:49 <adu> hehehe
19:44:04 <Trey> colorg: no kidding.
19:44:16 * colorg shakes his head
19:44:30 * TheBlueWizard thinks it's cool :)
19:44:37 <adu> i'm still working on a BNF for it
19:44:38 <Trey> I can't think of too many reasons you'd want horizontal freqency interrupts.
19:44:53 <Trey> s/freqency/frequency/
19:45:01 <adu> can't you have them work as things other than interrupts?
19:45:06 <colorg> Trey the whole Amiga was synced to it
19:45:19 <colorg> adu not as well
19:45:23 <Trey> Yeah, but it only output TV-quality video.
19:45:32 <TheBlueWizard> adu: what about using . instead of ' as a syntax...e.g.   argv.i.0?
19:45:36 <adu> TV quality is good
19:45:40 <Trey> NOT
19:45:59 <adu> bcus at first . was the line terminator, then i moved to a space terminator like lisp
19:46:06 <adu> so i suppose . could be used now
19:46:09 <colorg> proper Amiga monitors were real monitors
19:46:38 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....I also notice you eschew ; .... interesting
19:46:41 <Trey> Composite video.
19:46:44 <adu> but Ada uses ' for some array operations, so i thought i'd use it
19:46:55 <adu> eschew?
19:47:02 <Trey> avoid
19:47:05 <adu> o
19:47:07 <adu> ya =)
19:47:34 <adu> variablename(...) is equivilent to a switch
19:47:37 <TheBlueWizard> IIRC ' is a builtin qualifier; it lets you find out info on variables and types at compile time, e.g. integer'max
19:47:39 <colorg> Trey  yeah, but prenty of pixels
19:47:55 <adu> ya
19:48:04 <Trey> colorg: if you call 640x480 "plenty".
19:48:11 <adu> its more tied to types than variables
19:48:31 <colorg> That's a lot more than NTSC, and was a lot back then
19:48:54 <adu> how much does NTSC have?
19:49:04 <colorg> 320x200 I think
19:49:07 <adu> ew
19:49:22 <Trey> More than that, actualy.
19:49:25 <adu> isn't that triangular tho? like a behive?
19:49:25 <colorg> TV is The Small Screen for sure
19:49:41 <TheBlueWizard> can have more using overscan in Amiga, yeah
19:51:40 <colorg> Trey the Amiga could change display mode between scanlines
19:51:41 <Trey> NTSC more acurately describes a waveform than a pixel count.
19:52:18 <Trey> colorg: true, but they had seriously custom hardware for it.
19:53:16 <colorg> sure. Also, the audio was synced to the video. The max sample rate was the horsync x 2 or something. There's a good reason for that.
19:53:54 <TheBlueWizard> and constantly changing display mode between lines does slow down Amiga...I know SHAM employs this technique
19:55:35 <Trey> I don't know the details, but I expect that they had fairly strict limitations on how you could change the video mode between scanlines.
19:57:08 <colorg> Trey  you had to program the Copper, which was nasty, but pretty flexible
19:58:16 <TheBlueWizard> colorg: correct...the timing has to be real tight, else you'd get skewed lines
19:58:35 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o colorg
19:59:02 <colorg> The reason for the audio being synced to the video is really deep. 
20:00:00 <colorg> You get one periodic realtime event in an OS. The Amiga got several important ones on the same interrupt that way. Really elegant.
20:02:59 <TheBlueWizard> got to go...bye!
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20:03:05 <adu> bye
20:03:09 <colorg> so if such an irq was available on the PC I'd want to use it.
20:05:48 <colorg> The plain PC PIC does about what, a megahz tops?
20:06:45 <Trey> Why would you want anything that fast (except for scientific measurement tools)?
20:07:39 <colorg> For audio you can use real high top clocks and divide down for notes in some cases
20:08:23 <colorg> if your one periodic event is super-fast you can nest things nicely
20:08:46 <Trey> Only if you have next to zero overhead in handling the interrupts.
20:09:03 <colorg> right. Which is why I don't want VM.
20:09:36 <Trey> Ah, you haven't gotten religion yet.
20:09:46 <colorg> although it just occured to me that RT services can be separate from process switches
20:09:54 <Trey> TaDa!
20:10:07 <colorg> now I have religion?
20:10:19 <Trey> The cool way involves running the pre-emptive tasks in the idle time of a real-time scheduler.
20:10:23 <Trey> Hard real-time.
20:10:53 <colorg> I'm familiar with rtlinux
20:11:13 <Trey> So your drop-dead-can't-miss code runs under guaranteed real-time constraints, and everything else gets whatever the CPU has left over.
20:11:19 <Trey> Exactly like rtlinux.
20:11:52 <colorg> the Amiga did that in hardware, sortof.
20:11:59 <Trey> So, you run your VM in the idle slot where you don't care.
20:12:08 <Trey> Where you need paranoia, you go real-time.
20:12:45 <colorg> I'd maybe run VM out in userland. It's a nightmare anyway.
20:13:58 <Trey> VM lets you solve certain problems quite easily.  Why give up such a powerfull tool? 
20:14:12 <Trey> Especially when you don't have to.
20:14:22 <colorg> because it charges the lean and mean for costs incurred by the pigs
20:14:23 * Trey gets off his soapbox.
20:15:04 <Trey> I disagree.  If your hard real-time system has extra CPU cycles, why not utilize them for something else?
20:15:34 <colorg> I mean irrespective of the RT. ed pays for Mozilla.
20:16:39 <colorg> which causes a tendency for apps to turn into Mozilla
20:16:44 <Trey> heh
20:16:48 <colorg> or emacs
20:17:06 <Trey> Creeping featuritis: see EMACS or Mozilla.
20:17:40 <Trey> RMS should have just written a HAL for EMACS years ago.
20:17:54 <colorg> HAL?
20:18:19 <Trey> Hardware Abstraction Layer.
20:19:15 <Trey> The glue that sits between the hardware specific code and a nominally hardware independant environment (typically an OS).
20:19:35 <colorg> there's emacs Lisp
20:19:46 <Trey> You know, the code layer that Chuck hates.
20:19:53 <adu> lol
20:20:15 <colorg> No, the code layer that Chuck does in 200 instructions :o)
20:20:42 <Trey> Lisp actually sits on top of the low level emacs code, not on the OS independant code.
20:20:58 <Trey> Chuck doesn't bother with a HAL.  He writes directly the the metal.
20:21:11 <Trey> (which has its place, IMHO)
20:21:19 <colorg> OK, you mean a OAL, OS Abstraction Layer. AN OS is a HAL.
20:21:29 <Trey> No.
20:21:48 <Trey> Emacs has an OAL of sorts.
20:21:56 <Trey> WinNT has a HAL.
20:23:27 <colorg> Trey for itself (NT) or for apps?
20:23:40 <Trey> Itself.
20:23:57 <colorg> Riiight. That's why it runs on 2 platforms and falling
20:24:37 <Trey> The other platforms never really caught on, but it did support a number of them: PPC, x86, Alpha, MIPS
20:24:44 <colorg> WinNT is Dos 9 as far as I'm concerned
20:25:06 <Trey> Nope, VMS (last+1)
20:25:25 <colorg> VMS had .EXE?
20:26:08 <Trey> No.  That got tacked on later.  It actually did start out as a clean slate.
20:26:17 <Trey> (tacked on to NT)
20:26:46 <Trey> The primary architect of WinNT came from DEC where he worked on VMS.
20:27:17 <Trey> The WinNT guts look a lot like VMS, with different names.
20:28:41 * Trey needs to sleep.  He has a flying lesson at 09:00 tomorrow.
20:28:49 <Trey> G'night, all.
20:28:54 * Trey is idle: sleeping
20:28:54 <colorg> nite
20:29:35 <colorg> so they took VMS and turned it into Dos 9. Leave it to Mickeysoft
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21:05:52 <colorg> fyeh
21:06:02 <adu> perl is big
21:06:50 <colorg> Perl is unbounded
21:13:32 <BorgHOME_> Perl ain't so bad....
21:13:41 <BorgHOME_> it's nice in it's own way...
21:13:55 <BorgHOME_> but I rarely use it.
21:15:46 <colorg> I use Bash or awk or C.
21:16:41 <colorg> and occaisionally Forth :o)
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21:36:36 --- topic: set to 'Good friends:  interrupts, PPI, syscalls, low-level knowledge =)' by cleverdra
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21:40:19 <cleverdra> Programmable Peripheral Interfaces are particularly cool.  I really like those.
22:01:35 <adu> l8r
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22:02:07 <colorg> bye. hi.
22:16:38 <cleverdra> Hello, colorg.
22:16:48 <cleverdra> Catch my message in EFnet #clienux ?
22:18:29 * cleverdra blinks.
22:18:33 <cleverdra> clueflash!
22:20:11 <colorg> cleverdra:  hmmmmmmm
22:20:38 <colorg> Isn't that vt102 stuff?
22:21:08 <colorg> what's PPI?
22:21:10 <cleverdra> Oh, is it?  You can do a single write to a single PPI port.
22:21:19 <cleverdra> <cleverdra> Programmable Peripheral Interfaces are particularly cool.  I really like those.
22:21:34 <colorg> do   see console_codes
22:21:39 <cleverdra> OK.
22:21:44 <cleverdra> n/m.
22:22:12 <colorg> Maybe you're right. The fun way to do it would be with System.map. 
22:23:04 <colorg> The Linux console is ridiculously featureful though
22:23:10 <cleverdra> What would System.map do?
22:23:53 <cleverdra> How would you do it with System.map, I mean?
22:24:09 <colorg> via /dev/mem or kmem
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22:24:33 <cleverdra> hm.
22:24:36 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o notjunkd
22:24:38 <notjunkd> hi
22:24:51 <cleverdra> hello, notjunkd.
22:25:08 <colorg> hi
22:28:30 <colorg> cleverdra:  If you can find a kernel constant you can clobber it with dd as root with /dev/mem 
22:30:00 <cleverdra> Oh, cool.
22:38:57 <cleverdra> darn.
22:39:05 <cleverdra> COLOR.COM experiment 2 failed.
22:39:49 <colorg> can't boot it?
22:41:52 <cleverdra> No.  I know why, too.  I've spoken with Trey about it.  I just realized that I hadn't tested my linux box, and decided to try it.  I couldn't get a list of PCI devices.  /linux/pci appears not to exist.  It was worth a try.
22:42:53 <cleverdra> If Chuck were to spend a few miliseconds, his system would boot on my computer.  Sigh.  Maybe someone else able to boot it will make the patch and redistribute, assuming that Color Forth contains COLOR.COM creating facilities.
22:44:20 <colorg> The source is supposedly coming out, which is what I'm waiting for.
22:44:50 <colorg> There was some mention of an agp dependancy. That's nuts.
22:46:54 <cleverdra> The AGP dependency is really Chuck probing something very specific instead of doing a search.  Apparently the programmed I/O with AGP is very portable, so that wouldn't be a problem.
22:47:10 <cleverdra> Trey knows more about this than I.
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22:48:12 * cleverdra is disapointed that nobody care's about his PC speaker words.
22:50:13 <cleverdra> s/'//.  Fluke.
22:50:46 <colorg> What PC speaker words?
22:52:34 <cleverdra> I wrote some words using the PC Speaker PPI to emit frequencies for certain times.  It was very fun doing, and I think I encapsulated the process nicely.
22:53:02 <colorg> in what?
22:53:16 <cleverdra> I still need to see if I can do this under Linux.  I get the impression that Linux requires hoops to access PPI, which would frustrate me.
22:53:49 <cleverdra> Forth.  Specifically Enth, but the only Enth words are pc@ and pc! which are used to talk to the PPI.
22:54:03 <cleverdra> !!
22:54:17 <cleverdra> H3sm 1.5k, maybe!
22:54:32 <cleverdra> In intel ASM pc@ and pc! are IN and OUT.
22:54:38 <colorg> H3sm in the kernel can do what it wants
22:54:59 <colorg> see if your H3sm has those
22:55:04 <cleverdra> My thought, exactly.
22:55:11 <cleverdra> those what, colorg?
22:56:56 <colorg> They're not in pre2
22:57:10 <cleverdra> they what, colorg?
22:57:48 * cleverdra wonders what he is going to do with the apparently unused extra undocumented registers on his pentium.
22:58:39 <colorg> run that, do 100 wo.
22:58:49 <cleverdra> OK.
22:59:11 <cleverdra> I'll be getting offline in 30 minutes, so I'll look at that then.
23:01:05 <colorg> cleverdra:  /dev/ports is how you do IO from userland as root. Want some Forth I did of that?
23:01:29 <colorg> That's VGA stuff in Forth
23:02:11 <cleverdra> Thank you, colorg.
23:02:27 <colorg> sure
23:06:58 <cleverdra> GForth has CLEARSTACK.
23:07:19 <cleverdra> Cool! =)
23:07:54 <cleverdra> IOPOKE IOPEEK appear to correspond to PC! PC@
23:08:13 <colorg> That means it has a user-visible stack pointer, which is cheating
23:08:21 <colorg> cleverdra: yeah
23:08:31 <colorg> see if that H3sm runs for me
23:08:50 <cleverdra> colorg - not really.  CLEARSTACK can be implemented just as your WIPE is.
23:09:07 <cleverdra> And even if it can't... it's a dependency.  I don't get why you have WIPE at all.
23:10:05 <colorg> I have wipe?
23:10:08 <cleverdra> You don't appear to be using it.  Thanks, colorg!
23:10:20 <cleverdra> Yes, you define it right at the top of this program you sent me.
23:11:38 <cleverdra> /dev/ports seems like it'd be much slower and less efficient to access.  I guess this isn't really important.
23:12:38 <colorg> wipe doesn't tick
23:12:53 <colorg> oh, in the Forth?
23:13:25 <colorg> I thought you meant in H3sm. Hm is a H3sm binary with IO primitives, real ones
23:13:56 <cleverdra> Oh, cool.  What version is this?
23:13:58 <colorg> yes dev/port takes forever. 
23:14:07 <colorg> I dono, the one with IO
23:14:18 <cleverdra> Oh, OK.
23:14:34 <colorg> An earlier all-asm one I guess
23:14:59 <colorg> Are you on cLIeNUX?
23:15:18 <colorg> guess not, nm
23:15:30 <cleverdra> Yes.  This machine is a windows machine of my mother's though, that I'm using.  My cLIeNUX machine isn't connected.
23:16:21 <cleverdra> Like I said, I won't be able to test Hm for about 15 minutes, now, when I disconnect.
23:16:25 <colorg> oh, well Hm has untested IO crap in it
23:17:05 * cleverdra nods.
23:17:35 <cleverdra> It wouldn't be difficult for me to add iopeek/iopoke words to the version of H3sm I have, anyway.
23:19:41 <cleverdra> H3sm is kinda hard to develop in.  No .S  When I want a number I have to use gforth for conversions most of the time :-/  I asked once before, but had to leave.  Are you going to add an auxilary pyte stack to H3sm?
23:20:44 <colorg> : apyte  address ; dp @ 100 +p !     or so
23:21:31 <cleverdra> I don't understand what you're doing there, colorg.
23:21:54 <colorg> naming a variable and alloting 256 bytes
23:22:41 <cleverdra> OK.
23:22:49 <colorg> : allot  dp p@ p+ p! pdrop ;   I think
23:23:13 <colorg> There might be an allot example in the includables, dono
23:24:04 <cleverdra> OK.
23:25:16 <colorg> And push pop could be in high level which would be OK for convenience
23:26:16 <cleverdra> By push pop you mean ->r <-r ?
23:26:58 <colorg> ->aux_pyte
23:27:13 <cleverdra> Oh.  Yes I guess that'd be OK.
23:42:11 <cleverdra> good bye.
23:42:14 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving)
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.07.12