00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.07.07 00:33:44 --- join: notjunkd (junk@p59-max1.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz) joined #forth 01:31:50 --- quit: notjunkd (movie) 01:54:13 --- quit: aaronl (Ping timeout for aaronl[vitelus.com]) 02:15:07 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 02:32:25 --- quit: aaronl (Ping timeout for aaronl[vitelus.com]) 02:48:22 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 03:12:39 --- quit: aaronl (Ping timeout for aaronl[vitelus.com]) 07:15:32 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust12.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:15:32 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 07:17:52 --- topic: set to ': puts 0 parse type cr ; puts Hello, World!' by cleverdra 07:29:04 --- nick: _MrReach_ -> MrReach 07:29:07 hihi! 07:29:41 07:30 pacific, and I'm scarfing coffee 07:30:21 10:31 eastern. G'morning! =) 07:31:57 well, I'm back from Banks Lake, saw the lightshow on the side of Hoover dam ... in a couple hours will be leaving for Seattle 07:35:22 Cool. 07:35:40 Another version of Enth out. This one looks *cool*. 07:35:48 good deal 07:35:59 at least somebody is doing something with Forth 07:36:04 - Added a Flux color terminal for interactive Color Forth. 07:36:04 - Expanded (and infact simplified :-) the Enth multitasking. 07:36:04 - Rebuilt Enth to bring it's Dictionary structure into line with Flux's. Now the two may run together in a simpler and faster fashion. 07:36:12 People are always doing something with Forth =) 07:36:32 but one never sees much of it 07:37:28 * cleverdra nods. 07:37:53 I guess it's that there isn't much of a distributive meme in the Forth culture, except in Forths themselves. 07:38:48 indeed ... also, there's no real repository of algorrithyms 07:38:59 there's the scientific library ... 07:39:45 but no stack objects, ques, garbage collection, serial, etc 07:39:47 The scientific library mostly sucks that I've seen. Perhaps a good example of algorithms in Forth, but I would've prefered the algorithms and maybe a hint at how they'd be coded. 07:40:03 I don't know what you mean by 'ques' and 'serial', MrReach, but the others exist. 07:40:18 a portable string package would be worth its weight in gold, for example 07:41:16 I've yet to see the various stacks implmented (LIFO FIFO etc) ... and the only garbage collection I've seen is gforth-specific 07:41:22 --- join: cleverser (jfondren@1Cust12.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:41:22 --- quit: cleverdra (Read error to cleverdra[1Cust12.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net]: Connection reset by peer) 07:41:32 a portable string package would be worth its weight in gold, for example 07:41:33 I've yet to see the various stacks implmented (LIFO FIFO etc) ... and the only garbage collection I've seen is gforth-specific 07:41:52 bloody. 07:41:54 --- nick: cleverser -> cleverdra 07:41:56 I don't know what you mean by 'ques' and 'serial', MrReach, but the others exist. 07:41:58 stack objects -- objects that can be placed on the stack? See anton's objects.fs -- it's actually a very good OOP system, though I don't do OOP much anymore. Anton also has a garbage collection library, which is simple to use and which doesn't give much of a hit. 07:42:04 I don't think its gforth-specific, MrReach, but OK. 07:42:06 it's. 07:42:25 Oh, you mean stacks-as-objects? That wouldn't be difficult to do. 07:42:37 not necc an "object" 07:42:42 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 07:42:55 What do you mean, then? What's the point of them? 07:43:04 but words like "push" and "pop" that take an pointer to stack struct and an item 07:43:09 not the data stack 07:43:26 re strings, FOSM makes for one killer string search/manip package. 07:43:32 Yes, that would not be difficult to make. 07:44:06 and most languages have a (rather large, usually) repository of such gems 07:44:22 I've written bitstacks that reside in a single variable. A cellstack in memory is only slightly different. 07:44:35 These are gems, MrReach? 07:44:49 useful bits of code that one keeps around 07:45:40 what is FOSM? 07:46:24 create stack 18 cells allot variable stackp : bump 1 stackp +! ; : knock -1 stackp +! ; : push stackp @ stack + ! bump ; : pop stackp @ stack + @ knock ; 07:47:21 FOSM is at taygeta, MrReach. It's a pattern-matter somewhat more powerful than Perl's, if that means anything to do. 07:48:04 s/do/you/ 07:49:28 ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Applications/fosm1v1.zip 07:51:00 http://www.forth.org/ftpsearch.html is somewhat useful. 07:57:59 oh, ok! 07:58:03 excellent 07:58:31 I like the versatility of the regexp package, but it has a lot of overhead 08:01:23 regexp package? 08:01:41 part of the GNU Libraries 08:01:44 Oh. 08:01:58 distinct from glibc, I think 08:02:13 I've never used it. 08:02:33 you've never used matching in C or Perl? 08:02:36 FOSM's method (if you've seen its documentation, yet) is very Forthy. 08:02:42 I've never used matching in C. 08:02:54 Perl has its own library. 08:03:32 I thought Perl used standard regexp library? 08:03:37 I know that there are a number of libraries. There's the emacsian(/GNUian?) library, the pcre (perl-like) library. 08:03:40 Hah! 08:03:42 hmmm. 08:03:44 That's funny, MrReach =) 08:04:50 no, Perl's regexp library is very powerful, with a number of features simply not found in the standard regexp library (if you mean the thing Emacs uses... I think you do) and I think a nicer syntax. 08:04:56 also, ed has its own regexp engine. 08:05:18 heh, for Pete's sake 08:05:21 FOSM is even more powerful, but I think you should read its documentation to understand that. 08:05:34 MrReach? 08:12:47 yes? 08:13:36 What did you mean, "for Pete's sake"? 08:13:42 oh ... 08:14:04 about all the various packages for matching ... none really portable 08:14:31 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.96) joined #forth 08:14:38 hiya, edrx 08:15:03 Perl itself is fairly portable. pcre is theoretically so. ed's is as portable as unix(!) the GNU regexp library is as portable as GNU, probably. FOSM's is ANS Forth, and small enough and simple enough and cool enough that porting it won't be too difficult. 08:15:21 hello edrx. 08:15:25 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o edrx 08:16:04 hi all 08:20:00 Who or what is FOSM? 08:22:18 ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Applications/fosm1v1.zip 08:22:18 http://www.forth.org/ftpsearch.html is somewhat useful. 08:23:14 FOSM's documentation is quite informative. 08:37:42 I just got rid of a difficult presentation that I had to give at the university and now I can resume working in Flua 08:38:28 Flua? 08:38:33 it is quite non-standard, and I'd like to make it support ANS Forth words at some point 08:39:06 a variante of Forth, with a byte-oriented inner interpreter 08:39:16 Oh, cool. How does that work? 08:39:50 I mean, with only 256 values as a range, I don't understand how byte-oriented inner interpreters work. 08:41:07 I'll explain the byte-orientation stuff in a moment... currently flua is a Lua program that interprets a string as a Flua program and generates a nasm file that will then be converted to real bytecode, and C file for the engine 08:41:30 and a nice thing about generating nasm is that is it easy to generate a nice .lst file 08:41:52 Yes. A perl program named perpol generates nasm from Forth source. 08:42:27 perpol was my first inspiration :) 08:42:52 Oh =) I know you! 08:42:58 http://angg.twu.net/LUA/flua-0.02/ 08:43:02 You wrote braincram, right? 08:43:28 no, that was not me... 08:43:34 are you the author of perpol? 08:43:53 (look at the .bytecode.lst files in that dir) 08:44:32 Oh, when you said "first inspiration", I thought you meant that you'd written it first. 08:45:57 no, I started several years ago with the byte-orientation idea (first with a PFE extension) but perpol's idea of using nasm made everything much easier 08:49:02 I'm fixing something in my home page, brb 08:57:23 fixed it - take a look at http://angg.twu.net/LUA/flua-0.02/flua-demos.lua.html#flua_demo2 08:57:43 and at its bytecode.lst file 08:58:05 heads (CFAs) are one-byte long each 08:58:16 a word may have several heads 08:58:43 a variable (FOO in the example) has three heads 08:59:27 10 &FOO ! works as 10 FOO! 08:59:39 after that FOO returns 10 09:00:37 some primitives (look at the "db SF_TOS" in the .lst file, for example) are one byte long 09:00:57 some others have only two-byte versions 09:01:47 the inner interpreter must cope with that, of course - it reads the first byte and it is too high then it consults the table of one-bye instructions 09:01:58 s/it is/ if it is/ 09:02:53 the syntax of the flua code in the example is far too weird, I haven't had time to put it in a more modern, more Forth-like form 09:04:12 % SQUARE : DUP * ; will become % SQUARE COL: DUP * ; where I still want to write it using the old, low-level syntax 09:04:28 but there will be also a : SQUARE DUP * ; form 09:05:21 and the nicest thing about Flua is that it is very easy to create words that parse the following bytes as immediate data, like <."> 09:05:37 due to the RSR words 09:06:03 but I'll only describe that if you are listening :) 09:07:07 * cleverdra nods. 09:07:20 I'm listening =) I was distracted just now with a question in #Perl. 09:07:43 The definitions do look different. Why are you changing : to COL:, there? 09:08:05 because the "compiler" in Lua was very low-level at first 09:08:40 "%" parsed the next word and declared the next address as being the definition of that word 09:08:58 I figured that. : just turns the compiler on? 09:09:28 there is no compiler, everything is immediate (that was just a very early prototype) 09:09:33 I'm afraid that I don't quite understand this lua source. 09:09:38 Oh. 09:10:22 because if the RSR words and other weirdnesses of multi-headed words I couldn't figure out a nice syntax, so I decided to start with a low-level thing and let the ideas about syntax come later 09:11:10 the RSR trick is the following... lemme start with the definition of <."> as an example... 09:12:04 there is a third stack, called the "streams stack"; >S and S> move a value between that stack and the data stack 09:12:15 OK. 09:13:10 as you execute <."> the RSR trick (that I'll describe in a moment...) moves the address past the place where <."> was called to the streams stack; 09:13:51 then S<."> is executed, and when S<."> ends the top word in the streams stack is moved back to the return stack, so we return to the new position stored in that value. 09:14:28 that makes it very easy to define words like S2<."> , that do two S<.">s in sequence... 09:15:39 and, as you can see, the definition of <."> is just one byte long - the RSR: head 09:16:14 Yes, that's cool =) 09:16:54 following it there is a standard COL: head, that will be executed with top return address already moved to the S stack, and when it return the top address at the return stack is the address of a special routine that moves the top of S back to R. 09:18:36 that's it. And the nasm/.lst thing was a sort of a proof of concept that it would be easier to understand the bytecode generated by a Forth if we could see it in such a format... I was never able to understand the format to which GForth compiles, btw. 09:19:13 --- nick: MrReach -> MrSeattle 09:20:00 oh, and I like to have the dictionary in a separate area... if a program gets to a stable state where it doesn't need the interpreter anymore then it is trivial to throw out the dictionary. 09:21:33 I'm going to use Lua for the dictionary/interpreter things 09:21:36 That's kinda wierd. OK. 09:22:29 demo5 is already able to call lua words from flua 09:23:33 and standard C words, like strlen 09:23:57 it's the anti-eForth approach :) 09:32:39 Or anti-ZenForth. I think that was really small =) 09:34:05 09:34:25 I've heard about zenforth but never used it... 09:34:44 Neither I. 09:34:56 actually I didn't even know that there was a real zenforth implementation... 09:45:33 --- join: rob_ert (robost86@h3n1fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 09:47:25 bye 09:47:30 --- part: edrx left #forth 09:54:00 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o rob_ert 10:02:30 --- nick: rob_ert -> robert_away 11:22:33 --- nick: robert_away -> rob_ert 11:22:55 Oh, thanks for +o, mr Cleverdra 11:22:58 ;) 11:29:17 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 11:29:34 hi aaronl =) 11:30:40 hi 11:30:46 i'm leaving for france in a few hous 11:30:48 hours 11:30:54 where do you live? 11:31:21 california 11:31:23 oh 11:31:26 a long trip then =) 11:31:29 have fun 11:31:35 do you know any french? 11:31:47 have fun, aaron. When eating from one of those little food shops, don't pay attention to any artists. They'll charge you for it. 11:32:01 hehe 11:32:42 if you thow something on them and loudly declare you doesn't want them there, you don't have to pay? 11:34:04 clever: hehe 11:36:11 rob - no, that's a bad idea. They'll start telling you about their starving children, and other people will beat you up and give your money to the artist. 11:36:22 --- nick: rob_ert -> rob_ert_aw_ay 11:37:00 clever: Ok... 11:37:06 * rob_ert_aw_ay will never go to france 11:58:37 --- quit: rob_ert_aw_ay (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:37 --- quit: aaronl (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:37 --- quit: Trey (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:38 --- quit: nate37 (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:38 --- quit: cleverdra (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:39 --- quit: lar1 (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:39 --- quit: MrSeattle (varley.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 11:58:43 --- join: lar1 (lar1@adsl-63-204-132-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 11:58:43 --- join: MrSeattle (mrreach@209.181.43.184) joined #forth 11:58:43 --- join: Trey (bowser@ns.TreySoft.com) joined 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http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth' by ChanServ 15:31:38 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o clog 15:31:46 --- join: lar1 (lar1@adsl-63-204-132-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 15:31:46 --- join: MrSeattle (mrreach@209.181.43.184) joined #forth 15:31:46 --- join: Trey (bowser@ns.TreySoft.com) joined #forth 15:31:46 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 15:31:46 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 15:31:46 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust180.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 15:31:46 --- mode: farmer.openprojects.net set mode: +oooooo lar1 MrSeattle Trey nate37 aaronl cleverdra 15:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o lar1 15:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o MrSeattle 15:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o Trey 15:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o nate37 15:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o aaronl 15:31:58 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o cleverdra 15:33:27 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 15:33:37 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +oooo aaronl clog lar1 MrSeattle 15:33:38 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +oo nate37 Trey 15:33:49 bad (chan|nick)serv. 15:41:09 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 15:41:41 --- quit: aaronl (gone to france) 15:57:17 --- join: leo037 (leo037@grenoble-44-74.dial.proxad.net) joined #forth 15:57:54 is someone able to help me toggle to graphical mode ? 16:38:21 --- quit: leo037 (Visit http://ofaurax.free.fr !!!) 16:40:46 --- join: I440r (root@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 16:40:57 brb 16:41:02 --- quit: I440r ([BX] Size DOES matter) 16:41:58 --- join: mark4 (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 16:42:12 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 18:04:47 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-58.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 18:04:47 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 18:04:51 hiya all 18:04:53 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o I440r 19:09:57 --- join: notjunkd (junk@p45-max1.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz) joined #forth 19:20:19 hi! 19:20:32 hiya I440r! 19:20:33 went out shooting today - got bacn and then went out to eat :P 19:20:53 shooting? 19:21:22 yea 19:21:24 gunz 19:21:27 ar-15's 19:21:51 wanted to zero a cpl of guns in 19:22:12 so you are a gun fan, eh? 19:22:37 well 19:22:46 there are close to 40 hand guns in this house 19:23:08 we have 3 sks's 2 ak-47's 3 ar-15t's a cpl of 30-06 19:23:10 etc etc etc 19:23:37 I see 19:24:17 * TheBlueWizard has no guns...never own one...did fire a BB gun once though 19:24:17 i have a carry permit and carry wherever i go (in indiana anyway) 19:24:20 hehe 19:24:23 hh 19:24:28 heh 19:25:27 still lookin' for jobs? I know the market ain't great (economy is in deep turnip siup....) 19:25:34 s/siup/soup/ 19:25:53 yea 19:25:56 still looking :) 19:26:52 and my friend in upstate NY may get laid off (he's a contractor; he quit a dot com for greener pasture earlier this year) 19:27:00 grrr kid sis wants me to drive her to a friends house :P 19:27:06 jeesh - kidz :P 19:27:21 tell her to call parents ;) 19:28:27 mom is not hre - dad is in other room :P 19:28:31 brb 19:28:33 gona drive her 19:29:27 k 19:33:45 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer) 19:34:54 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 19:35:19 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o I440r 19:45:46 --- quit: TheBlueWizard (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:46 --- quit: Trey (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:49 --- quit: nate37 (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:50 --- quit: notjunkd (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:50 --- quit: I440r (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:51 --- quit: lar1 (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:51 --- quit: MrSeattle (pratchett.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 19:45:57 --- join: lar1 (lar1@adsl-63-204-132-181.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- join: MrSeattle (mrreach@209.181.43.184) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- join: Trey (bowser@ns.TreySoft.com) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ip-216-25-202-58.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- join: notjunkd (junk@p45-max1.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz) joined #forth 19:45:57 --- mode: farmer.openprojects.net set mode: +oooooo lar1 MrSeattle Trey nate37 TheBlueWizard I440r 19:58:48 --- quit: notjunkd (Ping timeout for notjunkd[p45-max1.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz]) 19:59:19 --- join: notjunkd_ (junk@p30-max1.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz) joined #forth 19:59:29 --- nick: notjunkd_ -> notjunkd 20:12:06 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer) 20:13:43 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 20:14:00 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o I440r 20:38:06 gotta go...bye all! 20:38:09 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:44:28 --- quit: notjunkd (h) 21:00:58 --- join: notjunkd (junk@p103-max2.christchurch.netaccess.net.nz) joined #forth 21:16:31 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer) 21:17:22 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 21:17:24 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer) 21:17:32 --- quit: notjunkd (h) 21:17:59 --- join: notjunkd (junk@blackness.darktech.org) joined #forth 21:19:09 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 21:19:27 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer) 21:20:17 --- quit: notjunkd (su -) 21:24:36 --- join: mark4 (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 21:24:37 grrrr 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.07.07