00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.07.01 00:37:41 --- nick: aaronl_ -> aaronl 01:17:13 --- quit: MrReach (Read error to MrReach[209.181.43.184]: Connection reset by peer) 02:56:26 --- join: rob_ert (robost86@h3n1fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 03:34:26 --- nick: rob_ert -> rob_ert_aw_ay_from_he_re 04:08:20 * aaronl is away: signing off 05:24:52 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 05:24:55 hi. 05:25:05 Hi 06:08:04 --- quit: nate37 (zelazny.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 06:08:04 --- quit: rob_ert_aw_ay_from_he_re (zelazny.openprojects.net farmer.openprojects.net) 06:08:12 --- topic: set to 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth' by ChanServ 06:08:22 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o clog 06:08:22 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o Trey 06:08:24 --- join: nate37 (nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com) joined #forth 06:08:24 --- join: rob_ert_aw_ay_from_he_re (robost86@h3n1fls33o898.telia.com) joined #forth 09:24:42 --- nick: rob_ert_aw_ay_from_he_re -> rob_ert_sub_urb_boy 09:25:13 --- nick: rob_ert_sub_urb_boy -> rob_ert_aw_ay 12:05:57 --- join: eddymaue (eddymaue@modemcable107.14-203-24.hull.mc.videotron.ca) joined #forth 12:07:28 --- part: eddymaue left #forth 12:18:33 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.184) joined #forth 12:18:44 hihi! 13:29:07 Hi 13:29:11 --- nick: rob_ert_aw_ay -> rob_ert 13:31:56 what structures packages have you used? what did you like and dislike about them? 13:32:20 I? 13:32:33 yes, or anyone who is watching 13:32:41 * rob_ert is wondering what a "structure package" is--- 13:32:44 * rob_ert is wondering what a "structure package" is... 13:32:45 =) 13:32:54 are you a forth newbie? 13:32:59 Hehe, yes 13:33:07 I met you just a few days ago 13:33:13 perhaps I should write this question on the Forth Wiki 13:33:21 you and I440r introduced me to forth =) 13:33:41 that may be so, but you might still have 20+ years of Forth experience 13:33:50 oh,ok 13:34:39 Oh, yes... 15 year old with 20 years experience... I started programming when I was -5. 13:34:52 bbiab, brunch is ready 13:35:00 oki 14:10:38 back 14:10:54 Welcome back from your bruch, Mr MrReach =) 14:10:59 "structures" refers to the layout of data in memory 14:11:01 *brunch* 14:11:25 similar to C structures, or Pascal records 14:11:33 yes 14:12:03 except that the programmer generally packs his own structures package with him from project to project 14:12:10 in Forth, that is 14:12:41 you have to use libraries to use structures? 14:12:47 nope 14:13:07 the structure functionality is usually not included in most forth systems 14:13:38 so the application writer brings his/her favorite flavor of structures 14:13:48 ok 14:14:09 gforth and win32f both have structures 14:14:17 most smaller systems don't 14:15:28 hmm.. how do you use structures in the small systems then? 14:16:00 I was actually looking at the Intel optimization manual, and warping my brain trying to figure out how to get forth to optimize for data aligment on cache rows, invisibly 14:16:33 rob_ert: the same way you do in big systems, except that the system's are usually shipped with structures 14:16:43 not shipped, rather 14:16:53 create ur own words 14:16:58 you port your favorite structures package 14:17:07 correct 14:17:34 also, with smaller systems, the lack of "alloc" is a stumbling block 14:18:09 alloc == allocate "external" (from forth environment) memory? 14:18:24 not necc external mem 14:18:28 well 14:18:33 "get me a block of mem this big" 14:18:41 but outside of what ur normally playing with 14:18:54 yes, not dictionary memory 14:20:28 MrReach: you have a ti85/86 calc? 14:20:38 but it looks like the optimization work (on memory data) cannot be abstracted from the application writer like the way code optimization can be 14:20:50 nate37: no, I don't 14:21:29 well 14:21:31 it could to a point 14:21:40 if the abstraction is enough 14:21:49 got an example? 14:21:52 as in there are words that create data and then access parts 14:22:05 and as long as the application writer only uses those words.... 14:22:14 the internal arragment could be however 14:22:19 everyone I know is going to determine the size of an array with a simple mutiplication 14:22:47 the simple mult will not align records on boundries 14:23:04 although the struct words could auto-align 14:23:41 within a particular record ... that would be totally defeated in allocating arrays of odd-sized records 14:26:29 MrReach: got any good ideas for uses of forth on a calculus/engineer calc (ti-85)? 14:26:47 yes, lots of ideas 14:26:56 is there already a forth ported? 14:26:56 besides embedded controller 14:27:01 i'm making a forth for it 14:27:09 what type of display? 14:27:26 128x 14:27:26 how much mem? 14:27:29 28KB 14:27:36 system will be aroudn 4KB 14:27:41 mem expandable? 14:27:42 prolly 5 or 6KB with everything 14:27:47 kinda not really tho 14:27:58 only black and white display 14:28:08 128x64 14:28:10 just remembered 14:28:13 ok, primitive PIM comes to mind ... appts, phone numbs, etc 14:28:35 also, spreadsheet 14:28:37 the little console i/o i have going makes it about 32x9 14:28:38 texxt 14:29:35 why the ti-85 in particular? 14:30:17 cause that's the one i have 14:30:18 :/ 14:30:29 * MrReach checks current price of TI 85 14:30:48 if anybody wants to send me rom dumps of 86 83 82 89 whatever i'll port at some point 14:32:15 * rob_ert wonders is there is any TI 85 emu... 14:32:22 (prize: 0) 14:32:25 yah there is 14:32:32 Virtual TI 14:32:34 is what i use 14:32:45 it can emulate all 14:32:46 ok, where can I get that? 14:32:50 you just need rom dumps 14:32:51 google 14:33:00 how much does a TI85 cost now? 14:33:17 i got mine for 100 but that was few years ago 14:33:20 its discontinued 14:33:31 so depends on source i guess 14:33:37 replaced by 86 14:33:41 which has more mem and some other things 14:33:45 but based on 85 14:34:15 ok, then how much does a TI86 cost? 14:34:32 100 prolly 14:34:44 maybe little less 14:34:45 80 90 14:36:02 i mean its getting to a point where its mostly working interactivly and fully 14:36:06 the palm m100 has MUCH more capability, and costs about the same 14:36:12 (about $110) 14:36:13 and you can link and unlink modules 14:36:24 s/modules/dictionarys-with-buzzword-name/ 14:36:32 I'd buy an m100 today if there were a Forth for it 14:36:37 m100? 14:36:39 hmm 14:36:44 what processor? 14:36:54 * nate37 hopes 86k 14:36:58 ermm 68k 14:37:03 * MrReach sighs, "Beats me. Lemme go find specs" 14:37:05 altho ti-85 is z80 14:37:06 k 14:37:08 heh 14:37:50 hmm that 14:37:53 i would love to get one 14:37:54 heh 14:38:08 i'd port forth to it 14:38:15 prolly already is one tho.. for palm os 14:40:08 can't find the processor 14:40:13 base 2mb memory 14:42:00 the palm m105 starts at $160 and has 8mb base mem 14:42:17 MC68EZ328 processor 14:42:23 just found it 14:42:38 hehe...MC68EZ328 i prefer short names like 8086 14:42:38 I'd like to discard palmos, and use a Forth OS 14:43:04 but MUST have drivers for all the hardware 14:43:21 Motorola processors are good 14:43:44 the reason I'd like to do this is that I'm fustrated w/ NOT being able to hot-sync with linux machine 14:43:46 * nate37 thinks of someway to get palm m10[0|5] 14:44:30 my SERVER should be the machine handling my e-mail and to-dos, not my pretty workstation 14:45:06 hmm 14:45:19 * nate37 gets motorola processor specs 14:45:29 MrReach: what do you code in? 14:45:39 for one, my workstation is not generally accessible from the outside net 14:45:51 assembler, Forth, TCL/Tk 14:45:55 Where can I get docs about TI calcs? How to program them 14:46:17 rob_ert: ticalc.org 14:46:25 those are my preferences, have dabbled in C and LISP and Smalltalk 14:46:26 get Virtual TI emulator (link broken there) 14:46:31 yea... 14:46:39 ok, thanks 14:46:52 i have done asm, C, forth, lisp (a bit).. researched smalltalk, never did anything it 14:46:54 et 14:46:54 c 14:47:02 MrReach: how much asm have you done> 14:47:41 oh, DUH! basic ... used to be REAL good w/ quickbasic-professional compiler 14:47:56 heh 14:48:00 i did kinda do basic 14:48:02 but i was... 14:48:05 younger 14:48:09 well, I metacompiled a native forth for the 8086 14:48:19 and used to write asm libs from QB 14:48:24 heh 14:48:27 * rob_ert did BASIC when he was 11... He's still playing with QB sometimes ;) 14:48:37 s/from/for 14:48:43 yah i'd say when i was 11 14:48:49 +- 1 or 2 years 14:49:03 MrReach: why not you make forth for m100? 14:49:13 don't have the time 14:49:30 and palm is a bit touchy about hardware specs, so far as I can tell 14:49:32 hmmmmm 14:50:21 christmas ways off and i don't know if i can scrounge up money hmmm 14:50:36 but forth is a perfect match for palm, limit hardware ... doesn't have to be fast 14:50:59 the only prob that I can see ... 14:51:39 is that by using a forth os, one would have to forego the nifty handwriting recognition that palmos does 14:52:13 unless you just integrate it 14:52:19 or establish a non-trivial programming team to duplicate it in freeware 14:52:43 yes, a forth-on-top of palmos already exists 14:53:00 have them side-by-side then 14:53:19 want a URL? 14:53:19 with a wrapper to call graffti 14:53:22 srue 14:55:07 http://www.quartus.net/products/forth/ 14:55:20 and ur looking at something to just replace Palm OS? 14:55:41 no, I want my palm to talk to my linux box 14:55:49 by whatever means 14:55:55 can't you just create software already to do that? 14:57:13 perhaps, but how hard is the protocol to interpret? 14:57:52 and the linux driver has to be perfect, or you scramble you're most valued data 14:58:53 doesn't it do checksums? 14:59:12 not sure, never seen the proto spec 14:59:14 even the little protocol in ti-85 checksums 14:59:19 prolly does 14:59:26 so just hope data is correct 14:59:27 hmm 14:59:35 that's not the point ... finding the protocol spec will prob be a real bitch 14:59:46 I'm sure the proto checksums 14:59:53 yea.. 15:00:05 but reverse-engineering the proto could be a hellish job 15:00:11 my dad has an orginal palm 15:00:15 he still uses it tho 15:00:25 moment he wants to upgrade i'm jumping on it heh 15:01:01 btw, Quartus Forth is only for the Pilot, the Palmpilot, Palm III, and the IBM Workpad 15:01:09 hmm orginal uses similar cpu 15:01:37 MrReach: it would be a cool project to hack palm tho 15:01:42 replace the OS 15:02:55 yes, and the character recog code, if one duplicated it's functionality ... would then be ported to every handheld in existence 15:03:13 probably taking Forth with it 15:03:14 "Automatic word-wrap and scrolling of text output" they listed that? 15:03:26 erm ... who? 15:03:35 quartus forth 15:03:40 on there litte list of features 15:03:43 the pam company in promotional materials? 15:03:51 yes, of course they did 15:03:56 i just mean 15:04:01 i would expect it to have that 15:04:06 mien does >:P 15:04:06 some of the earlier PIMs didn't do such things 15:04:16 ah 15:04:21 they were kinda crippled 15:04:26 damn 15:04:36 are those 16 bit or 32 bit processors?? 15:04:44 hmm i'm going to get a palm 15:04:45 32 15:04:55 68k are 32-bit 15:05:00 The z80 is 8-bit, right? 15:05:02 yes 15:05:04 7 General purpose registers 15:05:08 rob_ert: yes 15:05:09 7 Address registers 15:05:11 rob_ert: yah 15:05:19 rob_ert: Z8000 was 16 bit 15:05:28 * nate37 finds it amazing Mac SE is 32-bit :) 15:05:29 ok, thanks =) 15:05:34 Zilog has a 32 bit proc now, but not sure the number 15:05:56 i havn't done 68k programming.. but hoping to soon 15:06:07 ti-89 uses MC86000 15:06:27 hmmm ... nate37 ... do you think a portable forth kernel with matching drivers ported to all the hand-helds would be a feasible net-project? 15:06:27 ermm 15:06:29 68000 15:06:36 MrReach: sure 15:06:52 i'm not so sure 15:07:04 it would be nifty, for certain 15:07:09 hmm 15:07:25 but I'm not sure there would be enough demand to warrant the effort 15:07:59 there would be a LOT of work in leveraging the hardware specs out of the manufacturers 15:08:12 well 15:08:15 could be a forth kernel 15:08:23 but if we provide an interface ppl like 15:08:28 or programming environment 15:08:29 whatever 15:08:30 then 15:08:39 get more ppl easily 15:08:44 i think 15:09:15 yes, but how many would be willing to replace the PalmOS for a killer forth kernel? 15:09:28 You? 15:09:37 hmm 15:09:40 one would HAVE to start with the full functionality of the current Palm apps 15:10:05 yes it'll require work to get it to the same level 15:10:33 I consider the apps the easy part compared to obtaining harware specs 15:10:38 hardware specs 15:10:56 getting hardware specs may simply be impossible 15:11:11 hack palm os code :P 15:11:15 ugh i don't even wanna think of that now 15:11:24 * nate37 crys in pain 15:11:58 the neat part of all this is the ability to write a windowing OS similar to palmos in about 1/2 meg 15:12:17 that would be uniform across all handhelds 15:12:24 maybe yes 15:12:29 virtual desktops :P 15:12:42 either that or we go crazzy and push limits of calc.. 15:12:49 and make nifty divx player :P 15:12:59 HAHAHA! 15:13:31 "can hold and play 10 minutes of MP3 music!" 15:13:41 yup yup 15:13:46 through the crippled little speaker 15:13:57 heh that can only make that little click sound 15:14:17 so it sounds like somebody tapping there fingers like music 15:14:48 actually, I found a DOS program that played music through the PC speaker with fairly good fidelity 15:15:02 heh mp3? 15:15:08 will it work on 486/33? 15:15:10 don't recall what format 15:15:16 ah 15:15:24 yes, worked on my old 386dx/40 15:15:27 well there have been some pcspeaker sound drivers for linux 15:15:42 i havn't been able to get any to work (onlt spent a few minutes with it tho) 15:16:13 anyway, there would be many man-hours in such a product 15:16:13 just think tho if you somehow made a damn optimized system that 'll play divx on 486 15:16:23 what would the benefit be? 15:16:32 well i could watch movies easier while coding :) 15:17:08 well, an bovious one would be new apps being released for all platforms 15:17:24 hmm 15:17:37 and then platform specific "extensions" too maybe 15:17:40 also the ability to switch from one PIM to another effortlessly 15:17:45 no learning curve 15:17:57 but not sure how many people would be doing such things 15:18:24 www.palmos.com might have some hw specs 15:18:42 yes, some features are available everywhere, some features only on some systems, some features only on a particular brand/model 15:18:51 doesn't look like ti tho 15:18:54 some only 15:18:55 hmm 15:19:02 well, I'm not talking JUST palm 15:19:16 I'm also talking Casseopia 15:19:21 does handspring publish 15:19:24 ah 15:19:30 do you have any of these? 15:19:42 Visor 15:19:49 you have a visor? 15:19:49 not as yet 15:19:52 k 15:20:02 still using a paper dayplanner 15:20:16 heh 15:20:25 do code for living? 15:20:33 used to, just retired 15:20:42 retired? 15:20:55 burnt out after 15 years of coding 15:21:02 ah 15:21:10 retired coding or retired retired 15:21:10 not sure what I'm going to do next ... leaning towards RE investment 15:21:14 ah 15:21:27 heh, I'll always do SOMETHING 15:21:35 how old are ya? 15:21:38 34 15:21:45 ahh not retired retired then :P 15:22:03 * MrReach shrugs, "I could sit on my ass for a while ... but that's no fun." 15:22:15 yea.. 15:22:23 and, if you're going to do something, it's just as easy to do something that makes money." 15:22:46 maybe I'll start restoring old boats 15:23:34 hmm there is a palm os emulator 15:23:44 who knows? just about any hobby can make money 15:23:49 i wonder if it emulates hardware fully 15:24:00 yea.. 15:24:01 prob not 15:24:17 it prob emulates the palmOS for developing applications 15:24:40 kewl it does maybe 15:24:55 palmos, I believe, throws an exception if you try to access the hardware directly 15:25:21 "The Palm OS Emulator is software that emulates the hardware of the various models of Palm OS platofrm devices on Windows or Mac OS computers." 15:25:22 really? hmm 15:25:45 ROM images avaible for free too 15:27:06 oh, ok 15:27:12 I may be quite mistaken, then 15:27:17 maybe 15:27:26 i'm joining the alliance program 15:27:30 then i'll have to sign something 15:27:33 get rom images 15:27:35 and emulator 15:27:38 and see from there 15:27:45 in any case, I've got wash some carpets and change out the alternator in my motor home. 15:28:02 so will be back around dark 15:28:13 (9pm pacific) 15:28:15 ok 15:28:17 --- nick: MrReach -> MrGone 15:28:19 cya 15:28:20 see you 17:16:32 Hmmm.... how much does a z80 cost nowdays? 17:20:53 See you all 17:21:29 --- quit: rob_ert () 18:11:30 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust206.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 18:11:31 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 18:11:42 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +oooo aaronl clog klooie MrGone 18:11:42 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +oo nate37 Trey 18:17:28 --- join: TheBlueWizard (tbw@ip-216-25-202-42.vienna.va.fcc.net) joined #forth 18:17:28 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 18:17:35 hiya all 18:19:39 hey, blue 18:20:42 hiya cleverdra 18:20:52 curiously, what does your nick mean? 18:20:58 * cleverdra notices that dired is gone. 18:22:17 oh, just a description of me as a powerful wizard wearing a flowing blue robe 18:22:30 dired? 18:22:38 oh =) 18:22:51 dired is an infobot that used to hang in here. I wonder what happened to him. 18:24:13 oh...didn't know it's a bot :) 18:25:37 hey 18:26:05 hello, nate. 18:26:17 zup? 18:28:31 Today I tried to port Wil Baden's toolbelt and an ANS Forth game called 'sokoban' to upforth for cLIeNUX. I've decided that upforth (pforth) stinks. 18:28:41 hiya nate37 ... nothing much except I am fixing some conflicts in cvs :) 18:28:59 heh 18:29:11 heh...and I am stumped by the message I had on Amiga earlier today :) 18:29:25 cleverdra: sokoban == game where you move diamonds around and try to get them into the correct place? 18:29:31 TheBlueWizard: what was it? 18:30:43 nate - yeah. It's actually a very neat game, and the Forth implementation I have is very cool. 18:32:07 nate - I've improved it some. Changed the pages-long looped CASE and baggage to two tables (one for ESC-combinations, for the number pad) and some simple logic. Made some other improvements. I still have to factor things better. The heard of the program is a simple rule-based translator... very cool =) 18:32:15 ah...it said it can't write the file to MSH: --- object in use....I went huh? it is not being in use (MSH: is the device name for Messy-DOS devices...enables me to r/w MSDOS floppies 18:32:24 (as I said. especially interesting?) 18:33:15 so I rebooted Amiga and tried copying it to MSH: ---- same result...I think I will have to reformat the disk :P 18:33:26 cleverdra: kewl 18:33:58 rebooting Amiga takes only about 10 - 15 seconds...nice, huh? 18:34:07 any ideas for uses of forth on ti-85 calc/ 18:34:12 hah cool 18:34:19 almost as fast as dos itself :P 18:34:22 yeah, blue, that's cool =) Computers take too long to reboot today. 18:34:49 cleverdra: yeah, you say it! :) 18:35:39 * TheBlueWizard srenously advocates the idea of one-byte OS...blindingly fast bootup time! ;) 18:35:58 s/srenously/strenously/ 18:35:59 heh 18:36:05 loop: 18:36:08 jmp loop 18:36:20 (boot up code) 18:36:22 too long...RESET! 18:36:27 heh 18:36:42 or HLT! ;) 18:37:50 I could market this new OS as "Stop the Madness" OS (aka St. MOS), which consists of just one byte long code: HLT 18:37:54 blue - nah. 1k is small enough. 18:38:06 hehe 18:38:45 blue... that's a good idea! Have a subscript on that ad, "upgrade all your friends!" 18:41:17 ha ha ha! 18:41:39 then again, I'd eventually be crucified.... :( 18:47:42 dinner bbl 18:58:01 --- nick: MrGone -> MrReach 19:05:51 blah 19:05:55 * Trey has returned 19:06:07 blah? 19:06:18 TheBlueWizard: what is your favorite structures package? Why do you like it? What could be better? 19:06:35 sweating my ass off 19:06:44 * Trey did that all day. 19:07:41 what do you mean by structures package? 19:07:41 heh 19:07:50 C-type structures, Pascal-like records 19:08:17 the thing that you use to access various data within a contiguous region 19:09:02 ah...for Forth? I usually roll my own ;) 19:09:16 yes, of course ... what does yours look like? 19:09:29 I was thinking this afternoon of two things ... 19:09:43 I don't create a lot of Forth stuff though 19:09:56