00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.06.26 00:00:00 nothing much, talking on #gamefront :) 00:04:34 night all, cya in 2 weeks 00:04:46 --- quit: adu (IRCStep) 00:42:11 --- quit: klooie (Ping timeout for klooie[213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl]) 00:42:12 --- join: klooie (kloo@213-84-79-23.adsl.xs4all.nl) joined #forth 01:00:26 --- quit: futhin (Read error to futhin[h24-67-113-99.cg.shawcable.net]: Connection reset by peer) 01:00:27 --- join: futhin_ (thin@h24-67-113-99.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 01:00:51 --- nick: futhin_ -> futhin 01:07:48 --- join: ItalGuy (malizia@HSE-Toronto-ppp184649.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 01:07:54 hehe 01:08:02 ;) 01:20:43 hi 01:34:44 how many cycles is a JMP? 02:20:18 --- quit: clog (Ping timeout) 02:20:18 --- log: stopped forth/01.06.26 02:20:42 --- log: started forth/01.06.26 02:20:42 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 02:20:42 --- topic: ': 2pick 2>r dup 2r> rot ; - do drop >in - turn on, boot up, log int, drop out' 02:20:42 --- topic: set by I440r on [Mon Jun 25 18:29:15 2001] 02:20:42 --- names: list (clog ItalGuy futhin klooie aaronl dired @scipient @I440r @nate37) 02:20:56 --- quit: scipient ()() 02:50:35 --- quit: futhin (bed.. sleep.. blankets.. ahhhhhhh) 02:56:04 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout for I440r[purplecoder.com]) 02:58:04 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 03:02:45 --- quit: clog (Ping timeout) 03:02:45 --- log: stopped forth/01.06.26 03:02:52 --- log: started forth/01.06.26 03:02:52 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 03:02:52 --- topic: ': 2pick 2>r dup 2r> rot ; - do drop >in - turn on, boot up, log int, drop out' 03:02:52 --- topic: set by I440r on [Mon Jun 25 18:29:15 2001] 03:02:52 --- names: list (clog I440r ItalGuy klooie aaronl dired @nate37) 03:03:52 --- quit: ItalGuy (Ping timeout for ItalGuy[HSE-Toronto-ppp184649.sympatico.ca]) 04:35:08 * aaronl is away: Just go with the flow control, roll with the crunches, and, when you get a prompt, run like hell. 04:47:07 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust171.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 04:47:07 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 04:47:13 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +oooo aaronl clog dired I440r 04:47:14 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o klooie 05:04:17 --- join: ItalGuy (malizia@HSE-Toronto-ppp184649.sympatico.ca) joined #forth 05:04:32 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o ItalGuy 05:04:43 hello ItalGuy. 05:05:46 * klooie turns his attention to #forth. 05:05:50 hello. 05:06:21 g'morning, klooie! 05:06:38 "klooie" is a Dutch word, isn't it? 05:06:44 good afternoon to you too. 05:07:03 hmm, it is and it isn't. 05:07:41 how isn't it? 05:08:17 well, "klooien" means to "mess around". 05:08:48 the -n is silent the way most people speak dutch, it's sometimes left off in writing too when people are either trying to be hip or vulgar. 05:09:50 my nick started as an elitoid play on "clue" though, years ago. 05:10:31 So, it kinda is, only the connection is incidental? 05:10:37 exactly. 05:11:25 OK =) 05:12:17 dutch people think it's meant as dutch. 05:12:50 they suck. 05:12:58 I got gforth compiled on my machine, and used its lib.fs package to load 'chdir' from libc and change between directories and : ls s" ls --color -aFC" system ; to see what's in the directory. May make a smarter LS, and make gforth my shell =) 05:13:25 i use the nick "petrabbit" too some places, and have received email from dutch people that says "Hi Petra," or similar. 05:13:47 lib.fs is cool in how you define words for libraries, and define words for functions. 05:13:49 How annoying :-/ 05:13:49 oh cool. :) 05:14:43 maybe dutch people secretly hate you for stepping accidently on their language! 05:15:15 well geez, it's my language too, i can step on it all i like! 05:15:34 Oh. Yeah, if it's your language you can do that. 05:16:37 alternative: get FOSM working in gforth, and build a new outer interpreter based on that, so I can say "foo bar; baz; quux" intelligently. 05:16:37 most of my dreams are in english.. 05:17:02 oh? do you know why? 05:17:32 yes, or at least a possible cause. 05:18:20 at 7 years old, i started learning english by decoding a BASIC manual. 05:18:45 ever since, practically all the technical literature i've read has been in english. 05:19:33 also i like to read fantasy and science fiction which are largely written in english - i prefer them untranslated. 05:19:59 then this whole net business - first fidonet, then internet - all my discussion about ideas, technical and philosophical has been in english. 05:20:13 do you see what i'm getting at? 05:20:23 Yes :-/ 05:20:33 abstract and fanciful thoughts are in english for me. 05:21:00 my native tongue i use only for the mundane.. 05:21:17 it's strange, and even a little disturbing sometimes. 05:21:21 Does that disturb you? 05:21:35 there's your answer. 05:21:38 Yeah. 05:21:42 i don't feel dutch. 05:21:52 You've been internationalized! 05:22:04 a few years ago, i had plans and actual opportunity to move to the states. 05:22:18 as an H1B serf, you know. ;) 05:22:39 Yes =) 05:23:09 not as part economic refugee like many - .nl is as rich as the US, 05:23:23 but to see if i belong there as much or perhaps even more than here. 05:23:57 * klooie is odd. 05:25:42 Lots of people are odd. You're in good company just by that. Why didn't you go? 05:26:06 lack of guts, i was too young. 05:27:20 * cleverdra shrugs. 05:28:17 people appreciate consensus and equality here, you're not supposed to excel. 05:28:35 A lot of people, it is my understanding, *hate* English because of such. 05:28:58 really? Dutch people value equality more than excellence? 05:29:53 you can't state it as absolutely, but i think there's more respect for individual ability in the US. 05:30:19 .. hate english because of what? 05:32:29 it's influence on other cultures. Some people in the US talk about the "the whole world is moving toward English" and how we should just make English or some pidgin the world language... bigoted stuff because they're tired of having to learn new languages, I guess =) But apparently there are cultures in the world that fight English's influence all the time, and really don't want it. So these people in the US I'm talking about are d 05:33:19 s/it's/its/ 05:33:42 Back when I was more interested in Lojban, I learned these things =) 05:33:51 oh certainly, the french government makes sure there's a correct french word for every english word the youth adopts. 05:34:08 "ouebe" 05:34:15 we need a world language. 05:34:42 even in a country as small as .nl, there are minority languages (frysian is the most important). 05:35:07 interest in them is increasing, people are proud to speak their national or even regional language. 05:35:41 that phenomenon and a world language for commerce, aviation and the net are not mutually exclusive. 05:36:00 (hmm, how could i forget science in that list?) 05:36:34 cultural imperialism is another matter, i don't particularly appreciate McDonald's, Coca-Cola, Nike and so on. 05:36:39 The problem with a world language, in the eyes of the cultures of the world, is that once one is legislated people are going to immediately want to write and develop mostly in it (or fight it horribly, but there's always that) -- because it's *standard*, see? The silly hoops people jump through to get ANSI programs in different languages, now imagine people doing the same with a world language. Are you going to write your Magnum Opu 05:36:42 future generations? 05:37:09 klooie - no, I don't think so =) 05:37:16 * klooie nods. 05:38:56 i think the .nl people is less worried about this because we have always been a trade nation, always speaking the most profitable language (without forgetting our own). 05:39:19 cultural imperialism... I think your examples are mostly businesses that try to apply a method that worked for them in the beginning in other countries. I dunno how tightly *my* culture ties with McDonalds or Coca-Cola or Nike. My understanding is that gang-bangers really really want cool shoes. 05:39:33 s/is/are/ 05:40:09 that's cool =) 05:40:59 that's their motivation certainly, but they do spread american views. 05:41:27 What american views do they spread? 05:42:10 perhaps not views as much as lifestyle, culture is hard to pin down. 05:43:20 McDonald's introduced fast food here, an industrial way of thinking about nutrition. 05:43:34 the french (again), are especially upset about that. 05:43:41 . o O ( not thinking about it? ) 05:44:24 Nike commercials glorify american sports, and in an american way. 05:44:27 The French don't like their businesses making fast-food places? 05:44:54 Oh. I hadn't thought of the sport part of Nike. 05:45:08 .fr is very proud of it's national culinary culture. 05:45:15 s/it's/its/ # me too! :) 05:45:58 =) 05:46:22 Yes, I understand that the french are very proud of much of their culture. 05:46:48 * cleverdra has French ancestry. 05:47:03 Well, so I'm told =) 05:47:14 What about Coca-Cola? 05:47:16 cultural imperialism is a bit of an outdated word, but the US certainly does export its culture via its economic success. 05:48:10 I wonder how much "Baywatch" counts for that. 05:48:44 coca-cola *is* america. 05:49:02 How so? 05:49:21 oh yes, all of hollywood and television production. 05:50:19 that's difficult to explain, it's something that has grown over the decades. 05:50:56 coca-cola signifies america, it was the first product associated with american wealth and lifestyle to reach many countries. 05:51:45 more literally Coca-Cola == CIA == the US. :) 05:51:57 oh =) 05:52:19 The FBI must feel left out. 05:52:30 heh. 05:53:13 the FBI were left out because they don't need to hide behind legitimate business in unfriendly foreign territory. 05:53:17 s/were/was/ 05:54:08 I think 'were' works as well as 'was' there. 05:54:22 is this difficult to grasp, as an american? 05:55:01 you know, that's the trouble with learning english from all over the world. 05:55:02 Well, I'm not used to thinking of how other cultures view my country's culture through its economic exports. 05:55:13 what is, klooie? 05:55:28 there's no canonical english, and my vocabulary and style is eclectic. 05:55:38 It's a bit disturbing to know that Coca-Cola is the symbol of America :-/ 05:56:06 so yes let's keep it "the FBI were" just like "the police were" - very british, which i like. :) 05:56:42 no. You've English and you've American English and I don't even know about Austrailian English. Then you've Black English and Prissy English and all those dialects. People you'll talk to on the 'net will use all of these with significance and not expect you to get it =) 05:56:50 some people find my vocabulary amusing. 05:57:01 oh? 05:57:27 oops. they *will* expect you to get it. 05:57:30 yes, that's why english is such a rich language. 05:58:04 you can use a phrase from a specific 'dialect' of english and get all the stereotypes of the people who speak that way, as context. :) 05:58:11 It wasn't standardized =) At least, not for such a long time that now standardization is more compilation of current use. 05:58:23 right. 05:58:54 dutch on the other hand is formally defined. 05:59:14 it evolves like any language of course, but there's an official list of words and as long as it isn't in there, well.. you're taking a risk. ;) 05:59:54 Some people are like that with the dictionary, here. alt.english.usage calls them 'prescriptivists', iirc. 06:00:14 i've been meaning to subscribe to alt.english.usage. 06:00:48 a few weeks ago i read an english style guide, which cleared a few things up for me. 06:01:25 There's a web FAQ from alt.english.usage which I found helpful... let me look for it. 06:01:37 it said to use 's for plural in the case of letters, abbreviations and numerics! 06:01:46 as in "getting straight A's". 06:02:13 http://www.alt-usage-english.org/ =) 06:02:21 i thought that was amusing as many people say "'s" for plural is incorrect. 06:02:31 (of course most of the time it still is) 06:02:42 heh. 06:03:00 Yeah. Lots of people say 'As' and '1900s' now. 06:03:39 Check the quote there from "The Grapes of Wrath". 06:03:43 few people care. 06:04:25 :) Steinbeck's good, haven't read that book yet. 06:04:33 few americans care to learn the rules for their own language, you said? 06:04:39 s/said/mean/ 06:04:52 yes, but the same applies to the dutch. 06:05:29 But those people are taking a risk, you said. 06:05:41 supposed experts say today's culture of images is to blame. 06:06:29 how do they mean? 06:06:58 please note the smiley, the risk would be getting thwapped with the official list of words by some pedantic senior citizen who still remembers what dutch is supposed to be like. 06:07:40 Ah. 06:07:53 they mean that people watch the shiny things network (MTV) instead of reading. :) 06:08:13 Oh. I thought you meant social images =) 06:08:40 hmm, that would be a more interesting thesis. 06:09:13 say, i have to get going. 06:09:46 take care clever dragon. 06:10:25 American cultures are being affected by MTV and its compatriots, too. I was born in Texas, but I don't speak Texican, and I currently live in South Carolina, but I've yet to hear Southern that wasn't from a few characters in a few TV shows. Language has really 'smoothened' out, so to speak. Some of the formerly common dialects are disappearing in common use. 06:10:38 bye klooie =) 06:59:46 --- quit: cleverdra (Ping timeout for cleverdra[1Cust171.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net]) 07:02:38 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust199.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:03:11 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 07:08:10 --- quit: cleverdra (Ping timeout for cleverdra[1Cust199.tnt3.florence.sc.da.uu.net]) 07:09:33 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust102.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:12:54 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 07:23:17 --- join: grurp (grurp@pc19954.batc.tec.ut.us) joined #forth 07:48:39 --- quit: grurp (Ping timeout for grurp[pc19954.batc.tec.ut.us]) 07:48:53 --- join: grurp (grurp@pc19954.batc.tec.ut.us) joined #forth 07:49:52 --- quit: grurp (jordan.openprojects.net brin.openprojects.net) 07:50:16 --- join: grurp (grurp@pc19954.batc.tec.ut.us) joined #forth 07:59:43 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust123.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 07:59:43 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 08:00:03 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o grurp 08:00:49 hello #Forth 08:59:56 : editloop begin key keyt + perform ; : edit load-block editloop ; 08:59:59 fill in the blanks =) 09:52:36 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-67-113-99.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 09:53:47 hello all 09:55:22 hey futhin 09:55:25 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o futhin 09:58:09 I have to go now. You should've come in earlier! I've been here for hours! 09:58:14 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 10:06:22 i don't quite understand the 2pick definition 10:06:37 : 2pick 2>r dup 2r> rot ; 10:06:59 2>r moves 2 values from return stack to user stack right? 10:07:43 and then the dup duplicates the "TOS" of the return stack on the data stack, and then you move two copies of top of stack back to the return stack??? 10:11:10 erm 10:11:24 2>r takes double word off return? 10:11:26 hm 10:11:29 same difference :P 10:12:29 i'm assuming that 2pick is ( -- ) 10:14:04 ah 10:14:10 ah! 10:14:13 i understand now 10:14:42 boy am i glad everybody witnessed my puzzlement and comprehension! :-P 10:17:51 : 2pick 2>r dup grab 2r> give ; <-- is there even a spare register? is that supposed to be better than rot ?? 10:26:56 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.184) joined #forth 10:37:37 hey MrReach!!! 10:37:43 hi :P 10:37:46 greets! how are you? 10:37:59 i am good :) 10:38:05 you? 10:38:14 fiar to middling 10:38:22 fair to middling 10:38:25 heh 10:38:36 not a good day for typing, though @:^> 10:38:37 how goes your project? the forth portable system thingie? 10:38:53 I'm not sure if I'm going to start it 10:39:02 that hasn't been decided, yet 10:39:56 remember how you were looking for forths not implemented in c? 10:40:04 yes 10:40:12 those are always interesting 10:40:43 it doesn't really matter because you could write your forth in forth.. it doesn't matter if that forth was implemented in c 10:41:08 you can make an assembler and then make the words using the assembler vocabulary.. 10:41:18 ah! there are two stubling blocks in writing the forth in forth, can you guess what they are? 10:41:30 stubling = stumbling 10:41:32 um.. what? :) 10:41:42 i dunno 10:41:57 1st ... figuring out the file format of the host system in order to write the executable file 10:42:13 in Linux, it's "ok" ... in windows, it's hideous 10:42:23 don't know about MacOS 10:42:28 hm 10:42:54 2nd, finding the initial call address to use system libraries is extremely difficult 10:43:30 I haven't figured out how on either Linux or Windows without linking a major library into the executable to be loaded at load time 10:43:54 hm 10:44:15 well 10:44:39 I'd gladly link a small library into the executable that contained only the "LoadLib" and "FindProcAddress" ... but such a beast doesn't exist on either system 10:44:40 you can't really make a generic version for every platform, at the basic level there's got to be some differences that interface with the os 10:45:04 this is true, but the differences can be hidden at a higher level 10:46:19 mrreach: let me send you two files on win32 asm stuff 10:46:25 TCL/Tk operates identically across XWindows/MSWindows/MacOS ... so I know it can be done 10:46:32 oh, please do 10:47:06 I'll stuff them in the Win32 dir with about 40 others 10:47:19 actually, 4 files :) 10:47:27 ok 10:47:45 eh? /accept 98ddk.exe 10:48:10 um 10:48:15 erk! 10:48:37 mirc is ignoring it on me ... just a sec while I find how to disable that "feature" 10:48:41 the crc32.zip is from the technomagic wiz page.. you know that guy.. and the sib.zip is from the grc.com guy 10:49:18 both of those guys like to code in assembly and make win32 programs 10:49:37 the sib.zip has some content about how he uses a minimal library or dll or something 10:49:41 ok, try again 10:50:04 i forget what ml614.exe is 10:50:20 thos files are HUGE 10:50:21 the 98ddk.exe is a windows package that comes with some stuff and a free copy of masm 10:50:37 oh, ok 10:50:39 the grc.com guy recommended i get it along with his sib.zip 10:50:46 uh.. let me find some urls for you 10:52:00 ok, lets look at the crc package, since I've hand coded that in assembly before 10:53:22 http://grc.com/smgassembly.htm 10:53:44 whiz kid technomagic (crc.zip) http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/7394/ 10:53:58 and some other urls: 10:53:59 http://204.210.50.240/techref/language/asm/win32asm.htm 10:54:06 http://www.multimania.com/mrcrimson/ 10:55:48 huh 10:56:08 i forget what ml614.exe is.. it's a mystery.. maybe i got it from the whiz kid technomagic site.. but i don't think so.. 10:56:38 ok, looking at CRC32.ASM tells me it will be the contents of a DLL that will be called from CRCDEMO.ASM 10:57:14 look at sib.zip he put only what he needs into a .dll file that he uses or something 10:57:55 read the readme.txt in sib.zip 10:58:45 erm ... ok 10:58:56 * MrReach closes up the other windows 10:59:27 like he includes the headers for the stuff he needs 11:00:06 browsing readme 11:00:23 the grc.com guy is a little weird though.. his site/content reads like a brochure or propaganda material :) 11:02:26 * MrReach looks at the .INC file to determine which external symbols are present. 11:04:46 well.. i hope i helped :) 11:05:23 ok, in the .INC file ... looks where it starts with "WinMain" 11:06:18 ? 11:06:23 do you see all the function prototypes there? 11:06:30 yeah 11:06:52 ok, what will happen is that the linker will say "Oh, those are found in .DLLs" 11:07:10 it will then compile a "dependency" in the .EXE file 11:07:28 hm 11:07:38 that reuires that those .DLLs will be loaded and initialized in the mem space of the proc before it is started 11:07:59 yeah 11:08:02 that's fine? 11:08:15 what's more, it will alter the addresses w/in the machine so that it jumps to the right place when it runs 11:08:35 well, it's easy if using a linker 11:08:58 insanely difficult if writing the .EXE file with a forth 11:10:00 a compromise is to have the forth write out a .o file, and then use a linker to build the .exe 11:10:20 hm 11:10:24 whish is, in essence, what zimmer and others are doing when writing a C wrapper 11:10:31 ah 11:10:48 they're choice is just simply C rather than ASM 11:11:11 incidently, in Windoz, only two initial addresses are need ... 11:11:52 "LoadLib" and "GetProcAddress" 11:12:24 with these two, any procedure can be called, including the windows base services 11:12:40 * MrReach double checks in the MSDN 11:13:58 yes, those are correct 11:14:18 are you following, so far? 11:14:45 yeah 11:15:09 there is another (rather big) advantage to using those ... 11:15:44 if I write my forth correctly, external libraries will ONLY be loaded if I actually call one of the procedures in them 11:16:08 this can dramatically reduce memory requirements and startup time 11:17:04 each DLL that is mapped into my processes memory gets its "DllMain" function called 11:17:25 so that it can setup things specific to my memory area 11:17:41 in simple DLLs, this is simply a "return" 11:18:22 in others (like KERNEL32.EXE) ... the startup can be extensive in both CPU clocks and memory usuage 11:19:57 one of them, I can't remember which, is REQUIRED in the memory space of avery proccess, I think either KERNEL32.EXE or USER32.EXE 11:20:43 it is in there that LoadLibrary and GetProcAddress will be found ... but none-the-less ... I don't know where those routines are unless I let the loader patch my machine code 11:21:28 letting the loader patch my machine code is fine, but it adds a LOT of complexity to the .EXE file 11:22:01 do you see how what you said is correct, but difficult to accomplish? 11:22:25 heh 11:23:11 hm 11:23:32 want an example? 11:23:34 no 11:23:48 tcl/tk is implemented 11:24:06 probably is implemented in c 11:24:15 yes, it is 11:24:18 why not implement your forth in c :P 11:24:37 in fact, it was originally designed to be a scripting lang for already existing C applications 11:25:00 hm 11:25:01 because I want a forth that will metacompile itself 11:25:46 this is not an impossible request ... just challenging 11:26:06 it will get worse when I complicate it with a third OS ... MacOS 11:26:36 heh 11:26:56 now, Linux is even harder 11:27:16 the kernel syscalls will do ALMOST everything you want them too 11:27:41 EXCEPT load a library and get addresses of the procedures in it 11:28:07 that functionality resides in (g)libc.so 11:28:07 heh 11:28:26 which is a truely gigantic library 11:28:47 probably with lots of startup overhead 11:29:14 incidently, it takes almost 0 time to map a huge lib into the memory area of the process 11:29:28 but huge libs tend to have huge initialization code 11:30:05 * MrReach goes to find the size of glibc on his Mandrake/Red Hat system 11:30:40 why not attempt to implement your forth thing on top of forths that already work with their respective oses? and couldn't you still be able to metacompile? 11:31:14 ok, on my system, it's called "/lib/libc-2.1.3.so" 11:31:37 and it's 931,348 bytes in size 11:32:21 yes, I had intended to write my metacompiler on GForth 11:33:01 but still, in order to get my image to load, it needs to know how to access system procedures 11:33:28 on linux, only the very basics are provided by the kernel 11:33:44 and the real meat is in shared libraries 11:33:45 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust54.tnt6.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:33:46 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o cleverdra 11:33:50 --- mode: cleverdra set mode: +o MrReach 11:33:55 greets, cleverdra 11:33:57 hey cleverdra 11:34:07 hello MrReach, futhin! 11:34:36 --- topic: set to 'red ." Hello, world!" null cr' by cleverdra 11:34:44 we were talking about the chicken and egg prob of loading shared libs in Linux and Windows without using a linker 11:34:55 red? 11:35:02 why the "null"? 11:35:15 red changes the FG color to red. null terminates nondefault color changes 11:35:17 red changes the foreground color of the terminal 11:35:26 or bold, or underline, or such things. 11:35:27 ok 11:35:59 : null ESC[ $30 emit [char] m emit ; : red ESC[ $33 emit $31 emit [char] m emit ; for systems with ANSI terminals 11:36:34 cool 11:36:41 or maybe ... "COLOR @ RED ." Hello, World!" COLOR ! CR" 11:36:47 $30 is the code for '0' in hex. I use hex numbers for these things because they're so much more... memorable. Guess what the code for '9' is! =) 11:37:19 red >fg ." Hello, world!" ltgray >fg 11:37:25 for Enth, a native Forth 11:37:33 yep 11:37:45 hey, what does Enth run on? Linux, right? 11:38:08 did you write it? 11:38:22 maybe my terminology is wrong. I thought 'native Forth' means 'Forth running on its own.' as opposed to 'native-code Forth' which is a Forth that compiles everything to machine code, or something. 11:39:03 "native" usually means "compile to machine code" 11:39:09 No, it's at pringle.sphosting.com -- it's a Forth OS, I guess. It's got an assembler, a metacompiler, a *really nice* editor, and a Flux (Color Forth) subsystem. It has other things too, the list of which I intend to supplement. 11:39:48 "Forth system" is usually used to mean a forth that is both the OS and the language 11:40:09 "Forth interpreter" is usually used to mean a forth running on a host OS 11:40:37 there is some argument about this, of course 11:41:10 * cleverdra returns. 11:41:17 OK. Enth is a Forth system. 11:41:39 ok, then it's inappropriate to ask how it interfaces with shared libs 11:41:48 no linux kernel? 11:41:57 no 11:41:58 No. It's just Forth =) 11:42:10 ok 11:42:26 Very cool. gforth interfaces with shared libs, though it's has some primitives in C. 11:42:45 eForth also has mechanisms to interface with shared libs, iirc. 11:42:48 incidently, forth systems can have lightening fast shared libraries ... although it take a little work 11:42:57 How do you mean, MrReach? 11:43:00 eForth is linked, no? 11:43:19 no, eForth is just assembly, not even libc. 11:44:02 ok, the idea of "shared library" is a chunk of precompiled code that is stored on disk, but who's machine code (when loaded) is shared among all processes ...no? 11:44:26 cleverdra: yes, assembly, but what compiles it? what links it? 11:45:14 It's written in GNU assembler. GNU ld does linking, but doesn't link libc or any C libraries in. 11:45:24 ok, gotcha 11:45:37 do you agree with the definition of shared lib above? 11:45:42 Yes, I think you've a good conception of shared libraries. 11:46:09 ok, in forth, the filesystem is usually the raw blocks on the disk drive 11:46:20 no directories, no filesystem, no lookup 11:46:40 OK. 11:46:44 blocks start at 0 or 1 and go until you run out of disk space 11:47:37 now, you compile a chunck of forth source ... and write the resulting blob of data (machine code or otherwise) to a block (or several of them) 11:47:52 this is the library 11:47:59 You put pieces of your dictionary onto disk? 11:48:12 yoiu can if yoiu choose to 11:48:47 now, to load that lib means saying "copy blocks m to m+n into mem at this address" 11:48:47 OK. 11:49:12 wich is 100s of times faster w/o the filesystem code in the way 11:50:05 It seems as though you might as well compile from source, MrReach. 11:50:16 no directory lookups, no permission checks, no multiple seeks 11:50:35 that is possible, also 11:51:43 but it also ties in neatly with swapfile management 11:51:45 once you know where that memory resides on disk ... you can discard it and reload as needed 11:51:53 A filesystem-less disk space and advanced methods of partial compilation may be better. Have you seen some of the Aha stuff on www.ultratechnology.com? In that the editor does a lot of the compilation. 11:52:15 kind of an offshoot of ColorForth? 11:52:42 not quite. It isn't a linear descendant. 11:52:51 ok 11:52:58 no, not familiar with it 11:53:18 www.ultratechnology.com/dindex.htm (.html?) and look for 'Aha'. 11:53:32 I did look at something that Jeff Fox wrote that was based on ColorForth ... where the tokens were part of the dict structure 11:53:34 I think it's discussed elsewhere on that site. 11:53:41 no, the tokens aren't in the dictionary 11:53:56 jeff fox wrote about aha too though 11:53:59 oh, not in Color Forth. Maybe he was talking about something else. 11:56:13 ok, see what you're saying about editor compiling intrinsically 11:56:39 ... ? 11:56:45 the prob with a non-os forth is portability across hardware 11:57:16 A filesystem-less disk space and advanced methods of partial compilation may be better. Have you seen some of the Aha stuff on www.ultratechnology.com? In that the editor does a lot of the compilation. 11:58:00 for example ... if I run down to the store and buy a network card ... I know it will run under linux or windows, despite the type of card 11:58:37 if my os is forth, it MUST be compatible with cards I already know about, or I have to write a new driver 11:59:29 not to mention all the skull-sweat that has gone into the setwork subsystems of linux and windoze 12:02:24 couldn't the drivers be ported? :) 12:02:47 I was just pondering that 12:03:05 they're written in C ... no no easily at all 12:03:07 but forth systems are currently used for different purposes than windows/linux 12:03:39 also, they require a substantial infrastructure that is found in the .h files 12:04:01 well, some of the windows "drivers" that i looked at are just configuration files.. 12:04:01 that is quite true, futhin 12:04:17 those config files could be ported 12:04:29 heh, have you ever browsed them? 12:04:56 if I had to write a driver for a network card, I would certainly turn to the linux kernel sources 12:05:13 however, I certainly wouldn't try to port the code there 12:05:33 instead, I would look at HOW the code manipulated the card to make it do this or that 12:05:36 when you install a new hardware in windows and it comes with an installation disk, windows reads a particular file. i looked at that file and it is just config stuff.. not code or binary 12:05:41 and then write a forth version 12:06:30 futhin: is was useing MicroSoft's *HUGE* driver database that ships on the CD 12:06:44 no 12:07:12 it was saying "OK, I act like an NE2000 card, except I'm usually at this address and I like this packet size" 12:07:27