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09:25:12 <futhin> hey all
09:25:23 <futhin> anyone know of a nice little native forth compiler for dos?
09:32:51 <futhin> two questions: what's a good little native forth compiler/interpretor for dos and what's a good little native forth compiler/interpretor for linux?  for starting out with.....
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12:16:39 <futhin> anyone here?
12:16:54 <I440r> me
12:17:03 <I440r> im not ALL here tho :)P
12:17:21 <futhin> hm
12:17:30 <futhin> recommend any forths for dos?
12:18:01 <I440r> fpc
12:18:03 <I440r> its fat
12:18:11 <futhin> heh
12:18:11 <I440r> its complex but its not that bad realy hehe
12:18:23 <futhin> hm, i'm trying eforth at the moment
12:18:30 <I440r> if you dont try understand how things work in it and just trust that they do :)
12:18:34 <I440r> eforth is crap
12:18:40 <I440r> its by c.h.ting i believe
12:18:47 <I440r> and ting cant code to save his life
12:18:51 <I440r> OR speak english
12:19:00 <I440r> and zimmer had him do the docs for fpc too ugh
12:19:02 <futhin> but it's an interpreter..  i don't know how to save stuff in it?
12:19:34 <I440r> fpc 
12:19:39 <I440r> i use fpc for dos
12:19:48 <futhin> what about something that's not fat?
12:19:52 <futhin> something native too?
12:20:02 <I440r> dont k ow any native compilers....
12:20:13 <I440r> fpc can be stripped down
12:20:21 <I440r> my verstion of it is like 20 k
12:20:24 <futhin> i downloaded pygmy and tcom too
12:20:32 <I440r> i think its usually 150 k or something
12:20:37 <I440r> pycmy isnt forth
12:20:40 <I440r> it is a pile of shit
12:20:44 <I440r> i hate that 
12:21:00 <I440r> it uses subroutine threadeing i believe... or some other abomination that puyt me right off it
12:21:03 <I440r> i cant remember exactly
12:21:08 <I440r> all i know is i downloaded it
12:21:11 <I440r> looked for a min or 2
12:21:15 <futhin> eforth is 15k.
12:21:16 <I440r> and deleted it permanantly
12:21:24 <I440r> eforth is also crippled
12:21:52 <futhin> eforth is native.. 
12:21:55 <I440r> no
12:21:57 <futhin> why is it bad?
12:21:59 <I440r> its just written in asm
12:22:10 <futhin> yeah, that means it's native doesn't it?
12:22:16 <I440r> native means take forth source and write optimized assembler 
12:22:18 <I440r> no
12:22:35 <I440r> a native compiler outputs a 100% pure assembler object 
12:22:41 <I440r> no : definitions,
12:22:42 <I440r> no next
12:22:44 <I440r> no nest
12:23:01 <I440r> just an assembler program
12:23:05 <futhin> yeah, can you write a native forth compiler in c?  (without inlining assembly) 
12:23:13 <I440r> ugh
12:23:16 <I440r> if its written in c
12:23:18 <I440r> its NOT forth
12:23:22 <futhin> heh, i know
12:23:29 <I440r> im sorry but im stuck in my ways....
12:23:48 <I440r> i refuse to even acknowledge any forth compiler crippled by having been written by a lame ass c coder :P
12:24:16 <futhin> is it true that a forth compiler that is coded in c CANNOT be native?
12:24:40 <I440r> it cannot be forth
12:24:44 <I440r> .  <-- period :P
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12:24:50 <I440r> hi dima
12:24:57 <futhin> answer the question though :)
12:25:03 <I440r> i did :P
12:25:09 <futhin> no you didn't :(
12:25:21 <I440r> you could write a c program to take forth source and output native code yes
12:25:26 <I440r> but it wouldnt be a forth compiler
12:25:28 <futhin> yeah
12:25:31 <I440r> it would be another abomination :P
12:25:43 <futhin> and how would the c program do it?  inlining assembly?
12:25:51 <I440r> dima do i know you with a different nick ??? :)
12:25:55 <futhin> isn't fpc coded in c??
12:25:57 <I440r> dont know
12:26:03 <I440r> i dont write native compilers...
12:26:05 <I440r> hehe
12:26:11 <I440r> i hate optimizations too
12:26:24 <I440r> it destroys the 1:1 correlation between source and object
12:26:43 <futhin> native doesn't have to have optimization
12:26:43 <I440r> dima u there or was that an auto re-join :P
12:26:58 <dima> hi guys
12:27:03 <I440r> hi :)
12:27:07 <I440r> dime = forth coder ???
12:27:10 <dima> My name is Dmitry Yakimov
12:27:17 <I440r> yea i saw ur /whois :)_
12:27:29 <I440r> sounds russian ?
12:27:30 <dima> DragonForth, SPF4 - the fastest forth in the world :)
12:27:36 <I440r> hehe
12:27:42 <dima> yes :)
12:27:59 <I440r> never heared of it but i dont follow the scene much these days, its all ANS and thqats another abomination :P
12:28:08 <I440r> is dragonforth your compiler ?
12:28:26 <I440r> my stripped down version of fpc can compile 50 thousand lines per second :)
12:28:27 <I440r> well
12:28:31 <I440r> thats on my 900mhz hehe
12:28:32 <dima> yes
12:28:37 <I440r> cool!
12:28:40 <dima> for Palm OS
12:28:46 <I440r> i need ppl like you working on isforht :)
12:28:57 <futhin> i440r: why would anybody want to mess with any non-native forths?
12:29:02 <dima> isForth - what is it?
12:29:18 <I440r> its a forth compiler i have been writing for linux
12:29:26 <I440r> it is done in 100% pure assembler using nasm
12:29:44 <I440r> it doesnt use any libraries like stdlib or anything, everything is done using syscalls
12:29:49 <futhin> it's not a native compiler?
12:29:52 <I440r> no
12:29:57 <dima> I know perfect fight forth for linux - bfcd3 from russian sysadmins :)
12:30:15 <I440r> not a native compiler, i wouldnt know how to write  a native compiler....
12:30:39 <futhin> what makes it a non-native compiler? 
12:30:43 <futhin> i don't quite get it
12:30:44 <dima> but as for me - in Linux it's quite enough gforth, now I use Win2k
12:30:48 <I440r> and i dont like the idea of a compiler generating vastly different object code for the same source in different contexts
12:30:55 <futhin> no!
12:30:58 <I440r> gforth sucks
12:31:06 <futhin> i'm not talking optimization at all :(
12:31:11 <I440r> gforth is a pile of shit  ahnd you can quote me on that
12:31:15 <I440r> ok :)
12:31:17 <dima> yes, but it is still forth :)
12:31:32 <I440r> does it have the inner interpreter..
12:31:33 <I440r> nest
12:31:34 <I440r> next
12:31:38 <I440r> : definitions ?
12:31:49 <dima> which forth do you consider as superb forth?
12:32:05 <I440r> native forth compilers convert the forth source to an optimized puer assember object
12:32:06 <I440r> well
12:32:21 <dima> Optimization - suxx :)
12:32:28 <I440r> if you strip out all the bullshit overhead from fpc and rewrite most of the primatives
12:32:36 <I440r> i would say fpc was good
12:32:47 <futhin> native==optimization?!?   wouldn't a native compiler simply take the word and convert it to assembly??  like all the primitives are each going to be approximately 4 or so instructions.  so it's like a macro assembler ......
12:33:00 <I440r> yes
12:33:07 <I440r> that would be my definition
12:33:09 <dima> About optmization - what can you say about http://www.forth.org.ru/~day/stat.html?
12:33:16 <futhin> uh!
12:33:24 <futhin> macro assembler != optimization
12:33:38 <futhin> isForth= "macro assembler"? :)
12:33:39 <I440r> ugh i didnt say it was
12:33:49 <I440r> isforth isnt doing that tho is it
12:33:59 <I440r> its a forth compiler in the old sense...
12:34:03 <I440r> call nest
12:34:05 <I440r> dw x
12:34:06 <I440r> de y
12:34:07 <I440r> dw z
12:34:10 <I440r> dw unnest
12:34:11 <dima> spf4 strip asm code, then construct it again :) 
12:35:33 <I440r> most of the isforth kernel is assembler...
12:35:54 <I440r> alot of what is assembler now should realy be : derfs but i like the idea of a mostly assember inner core kernel
12:36:40 <futhin> the traditional forth compiler has a core bunch of words that are coded in assembly, and the rest of the words are coded in forth.  the words that are coded in assembly are approximately 4 instructions or so.  when that word is called, all the compiler has to do is insert the instructions, and that's it. no optimization.  1:1
12:36:42 <dima> can be your forth is applied in some real projects - for example in CGI scripting system?
12:36:47 <I440r> brb gota go do something
12:36:53 <I440r> eventually
12:36:56 <I440r> its not even close to ready
12:37:00 <I440r> brb
12:37:19 <dima> have you seen bfcd?
12:38:14 <I440r> nope
12:38:17 <I440r> whats bfcd ?
12:38:56 <dima> http://www.hd.com.ua/ - look at pictures (I can find for you download link :)
12:40:07 <dima> he writes in it commercial apps
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12:41:44 <I440r> ok brb im doign someihing rite now,,, 
12:41:48 <I440r> cleaning cats litte box
12:41:50 <I440r> brb :)
12:42:34 <dima> ? - what does it mean? I know English not so good as you :)
12:43:28 <dima> you do commercial apps in forth or you writes forth like bfcd? :)
12:46:44 <dima> have to go, see you later :)
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12:49:19 <I440r> :)
12:49:21 <I440r> looking :P
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12:50:20 <I440r> :)
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14:01:04 <I440r> could someone help me to get my mouse working in xf4 ?
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15:18:56 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
16:47:30 <TheBlueWizard> got to go....bye all
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18:36:23 <futhin> argh!
18:36:35 <futhin> i really want this channel to have like 10 more people dammit! 
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21:04:47 <cleverdra> o/~ yess! o/~
21:04:50 <cleverdra> New release of Enth!
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