00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.06.06 00:07:50 * aaronl is away: Sleep!:) 00:23:35 --- quit: adu (Ping timeout for adu[adsl-63-201-91-148.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]) 00:25:59 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 00:28:09 hrm 00:38:54 trey? aaronl? lar1? 00:39:19 my friend doesn't think that forth is very good for programming large usable systems.. got any good examples? 00:49:30 Ehh 00:49:37 sleepy time for larrrrrr 00:49:41 Soo ooo tired :/ 00:49:44 heh 00:50:01 recommend any good forth examples for large systems? 01:40:59 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-88-86.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 02:31:03 --- quit: adu (Ping timeout for adu[adsl-63-201-88-86.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]) 03:55:11 --- quit: futhin (Read error to futhin[h24-67-113-99.cg.shawcable.net]: Connection reset by peer) 06:45:26 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp99-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 09:34:42 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust197.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 09:49:05 --- quit: Fare (Connection reset by pear) 11:30:42 --- join: cleverser (jfondren@1Cust197.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 11:31:50 --- join: aaronl_ (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 11:34:10 --- quit: cleverdra (Ping timeout for cleverdra[1Cust197.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net]) 11:34:12 --- quit: aaronl (Ping timeout for aaronl[vitelus.com]) 11:35:39 --- nick: cleverser -> cleverdra 11:47:59 --- join: futhin (thin@h24-67-113-99.cg.shawcable.net) joined #forth 11:50:52 hey 11:51:11 my friend doesn't think that forth is any good for creating large useful systems 11:51:22 ( call-stub: EMOTION -- not yet implemented ) 11:51:29 ( call-stub: FREE-WILL -- not yet implemented ) 11:51:36 hahaha. 11:51:37 can anybody suggest any good examples? 11:51:44 Your friend, futhin, is highly mistaken. 11:52:13 futhin - forth.com has examples from NASA -- one problem here is that much Forth use is almost invisible. It's sekrit. 11:52:13 yeah i know, i managed to show him some things about forth, but i need to give him some examples too :) 11:52:35 futhin - oh, let me get you a URL on easywriter. This is good reading. 11:52:36 forth is s3kr3t!? :P 11:53:23 some people think that its use is almost a trade secret for some. 11:53:26 * cleverdra shrugs. 11:54:32 would that be because of the "too good" controversy or something? 11:54:58 http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html 11:55:05 and http://www.webcrunchers.com/crunch/Play/ibmstory/home.html for easywriter 11:55:26 EasyWriter is an old, old word processing program written in Forth by Cap'n Crunch. 11:56:26 cap 11:56:35 cap'n'crunch the phreaker? 11:56:56 futhin - what "too good" controversy? the trade secret part is probably based on the idea that companies do so well with Forth, they don't want their competition to know of it. Certainly I've heard reports from Forth programmers and companies about how they're not supposed to talk about their sales to some companies. 11:57:01 futhin - yeah, that's him. 11:58:16 http://www.memnonio.com/forth.html is a pretty good Forth page 11:58:27 why isn't forth accepted by everyone? it's been around since 1970's afterall.. 11:59:40 * cleverdra shrugs. 11:59:51 hey 11:59:57 thanks for taking a look at my code :) 12:00:21 you certainly did it a lot different, which was what i wanted to see :) 12:00:27 One bad thing for Forth happened when some magazines treated Forth code examples given in some Forth articles as 'illustrations' and did nice little things like removing "punctuation", changing format, etc. 12:00:50 let me get you Elizabeth's words on this. 12:00:58 heh 12:01:33 but i question putting all the stuff in the word on one line? it reduces some of the readability.. 12:01:37 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=illustration+punctuation+removed&hl=en&lr=&group=comp.lang.forth.*&safe=off&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=39E7AC52.9A5E31F2%40acm.org 12:02:11 futhin - does it? I find it more readable that way. I can *see* all the code. If you prefer a more vertical format, that's fine. 12:02:19 hm 12:02:23 well 12:02:56 has everyone read what's at that URL yet? Look in the quoted part. 12:02:58 that piece was the only code i've done so far, so i'd need to get better at reading and understanding the stack 12:03:17 Yeah, when I was starting out I wrote *very* different code than what I write now. 12:04:00 but putting it on one line seems to be fine for most of the words, but some of the words are more tricky to understand right away 12:04:19 so i think i'll go with a hybrid for the time being :) 12:04:57 you might want to use capitilization for readability purposes, if MUF is case-insensitive 12:05:50 (for instance, capitalizing IF, WHILE, and such) 12:06:28 foo bar BEGIN baz quux WHILE flarf REPEAT total-nonsense-word 12:10:52 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=wil+baden+lowercase+uppercase&hl=en&lr=&group=comp.lang.forth.*&safe=off&rnum=4&ic=1&selm=wilbadenEz7DLv.Cy1%40netcom.com 12:10:57 but that's not the one I'm looking for. 12:11:33 bingo! http://groups.google.com/groups?q=brainwashed+lower+upper+case&hl=en&lr=&group=comp.lang.forth.*&safe=off&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=B7299B1F.19790%25neilbawd%40earthlink.net 12:40:53 bah.. i tried to find easywriter to download it.. couldn't find it :( 12:41:15 I think it's made for machines you probably don't have, anyway =) 12:41:19 Did you read that article? 12:41:31 the easywriter article yes 12:41:36 well, Cap'n Crunch's report 12:41:37 OK 12:41:54 it mentions he implemented it for DOS 12:41:59 or something 12:42:16 I believe that he *made* his own DOS. 12:42:20 ah 12:47:52 jeez, you'd think from reading that article that more people would be using forth... because they promoted it quite a bit 12:51:39 Forth has often been promoted pretty well. 12:51:49 Still, did you read what Elizabeth said? 12:53:07 yup 12:56:39 http://www.amresearch.com/10_ways.html 13:05:19 do you know where i can find some big project done in forth with the forth source available? 13:06:37 Well, I've heard of Meme. 13:07:16 http://www.immersive.com/ 13:14:56 There are lots of small code utilities for Forth out there, say in Niel Bawd's ugly page, and on the various Forth magazines. 13:15:15 There's one interesting Forth game, I think on Niel Bawd's ugly page. 13:16:09 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.51) joined #forth 13:16:11 I've noticed from my own Forth programming, at least, that my contribution to the community seems to be limited to patches and small words I've found helpful. Someday (say, when I get a webpage) I may start putting up pages of my more extensive projects. 13:16:32 www.quartus.net 13:16:50 hi, what are you talking about? 13:17:22 edrx: futhin wants examples of "large" systems in Forth. 13:17:27 But then, until I get a TCP/IP stack or facimile made for Enth, I won't have many extensive Forth programs made yet =) Right now I've editing utilities, some interesting programs like a Shakespearean Insult Generator made while learning Flux. 13:18:05 * cleverdra may implement sokoban, but that's just a thought right now. 13:18:24 hm, difficult - I think that large systems in Forth tend to be written by a single person or very small teams, and the code is not released to the public 13:18:35 Have you seen sokoban, futhin? That's a nice game implemented in Forth, it comes in the gforth distribution -- tetris also. 13:18:39 there are lots of Forth sokobans around, I think 13:18:48 edrx - yeah, I know. 13:18:59 There's a pygmy one on taygeta 13:19:10 What's so popular about sokoban? =) 13:19:13 cleverdra: flux is one of the color forths? 13:19:30 cleverdra: it's easier to program than tetris :) 13:20:03 Yeah. Flux is a Color Forth. 13:20:21 It's the most complete one that I've seen, also. 13:20:35 cleverdra: is it the stand-alone, or the one that runs on top of DOS? 13:21:12 (That is, it incorporates all the features I know Chuck's Color Forth to have.) 13:21:47 One interesting thing about Flux is that the jump table it uses for its color tokens can be altered at compiletime with a little bit of trouble from Forth, which gives you some *really* neat tricks. 13:22:27 edrx - it's the stand-alone one, or rather it's written in Forth on Enth, which is a stand-alone Forth. 13:23:00 what is enth? 13:23:01 I'm not sure how ANSified Enth is. It seems to have a good subset of the standard words. 13:23:04 i forget 13:23:10 Enth and Flux are at pringle.sphosting.com 13:23:27 You boot Enth, then load Flux. 13:23:36 ah 13:23:43 Could he have possibly made his web pages any harder to read? 13:23:51 What's hard to read about them, Trey? 13:23:59 The colors. 13:24:37 The colors are meant to help with the color code, I thought. Your browser is probably overriding his links/foreground-text, to bad effect. 13:24:46 That is, their color. 13:25:17 if pringle made only a few changes on it it would be bootable by Grub, and lots of *nix people would give it a try. 13:25:50 it doesn't seem like anybody particularly likes ANS forth, most seem to prefer FIG forth or something.. 13:26:13 edrx - well, you can tell him about the changes. Why would that help, though? 13:27:11 futhin - I don't particularly like ANS Forth, why? 13:30:36 hey, pringle's site has changed a lot - and now it has his e-mail :) 13:31:28 cleverdra: I don't like ANS forth either, with all its emphasis on cells and alignment 13:32:34 If you get Enth 0.2.04, BTW, you'll have to immediately make changes to Flux if you actually want to use it =/ I've posted some fixes on the forum, but pringle is apparently waiting for his SASM stuff to be finished before putting out another release 13:33:04 sasm? 13:33:23 Oh, nothing to big. I actually overstated that because I add some stuff to Flux. You'll have to change instances of NOP in the jumptable (called DECISION0 to NOOP. 13:33:40 Sean's Assembler. It's an assembler in Enth. 13:34:17 Also he's blockifying source.f, which should make Enth more easily self-modifiable. 13:35:43 nice - btw, now I remember why I didn't try it before... because my floppy drive was broken, but I've changed it a few weeks ago... :) 13:36:05 edrx - The reason I don't like ANS Forth is that most people seem to think of it as an ideal in a pure form, instead of a mechanism for producing easily-ported code. Some people don't say, "this next bit of code assumes X, Y, and Z", they say, "this next bit of code is unportable, so I'll just replace it with something ugly and inefficient". 13:36:32 edrx - oh =) Hee. 13:36:50 Loading ENTH??.??...?. 13:36:57 Trey - that's bad. 13:37:03 I assumed so. 13:37:07 Trey - erm, try rebuilding enth.img 13:37:12 I did. 13:37:28 At least, I tried. 13:37:36 Were there problems? 13:37:46 It didn't report any. 13:38:00 hm. Are you using linux? 13:38:05 No, BeOS. 13:38:14 cleverdra: and I don't like it because it makes people think in terms of a world where programs are written once and ported many times - with ANS Forth will never be as useful for one-shot programs as it should be. 13:39:38 ah, OK. On linux anyway, I lowercase all the files and then use the commands 'nasm -fbin -oenth.img emakeimg.asm' and 'dd if=enth.img of=/dev/fd0'. These work, and maybe they'll help you on BeOS. I also change the DOS line-ending style in some of the files to UNIX, if that means anything. 13:40:21 I grabbed the .tar.gz, and rand the nasm/dd commands by hand. 13:40:27 s/rand/ran/ 13:40:28 I've had that problem with building enth.img before Trey, but I haven't had it in a long time and don't remember what caused it. Try using the default enth.img 13:40:36 Ok. 13:42:23 360+0 records in/out 13:42:36 That's good. 13:42:42 I assume Enth supports 1.44MB floppies? 13:43:24 Yes, its FDC by default is set up for 1.44MB floppies. 13:43:26 It just seems interesting that a lot of people don't like ANS Forth. That might mean that ANS Forth missed the whole point. Even Chuck Moore doesn't like ANS Forth. 13:43:57 futhin - Chuck thinks that a publishing standard would've been better than an implementation standard, and I agree. 13:44:19 But then, smart use of ANS Forth is usually just as a kind of world pidgin, anyway, isn't it? 13:44:23 This time I get: ??.??.... 13:45:17 Trey - erm, same badness. Have you tried using the distributed enth.img? Have you tried doing a dos2unix type thing on the assembly files? 13:45:20 My hardware: PPro 180, 128MB RAM, #9 graphics, IDE hard disk + CD-ROM. 13:45:34 I did use the distributed enth.img this time. 13:45:44 * cleverdra hums. 13:46:06 Want me to DCC you an enth.img I know to work? 13:46:29 Firewalled. Email will work, though. 13:46:35 trey@treysoft.com 13:47:11 Did you grab the .zip or the .tar.gz? 13:48:17 The .zip, I think. 13:48:42 I'll try it. 13:51:15 * Trey wonders why the zip file's flux.* have later dates than the enth.img 13:51:43 That's a good wonder. 13:52:33 OK, I sent the enth.img to you I used just yesterday. 13:53:25 * cleverdra did in-Enth modification of the keytables to give him a Dvorak keymap, and Qwerty when CAPSLOCK is true. 13:53:40 Chuck Moore is working on redefining the ANS standard or making a published standard isn't he? 13:54:10 He is noted as saying that he'd like to do this, futhin, but I don't know about what progress he's made. 13:55:02 hm 13:55:27 www.ultratechnology.com has his "Fire Side Chats" where I believe he mentioned wanting to do that. 13:59:09 cleverdra: your Enth.img exhibits the same problem. 14:00:15 meme doesn't seem to say anything about forth? 14:00:16 hm, OK. 14:01:16 futhin - it's implemented in Forth, I thought. Those pages don't seem to talk much about its internals, no. 14:01:34 this is a quote: Meme is written in plain-vanilla C, so it ports to any machine with an ANSI-compliant C compiler. 14:01:55 i followed a link to the sourceforge site "metatopia project" 14:02:10 OK, not that then. Maybe that C implements a Forth. 14:02:22 futhin - I'm going by what I've heard on clf. 14:02:58 http://groups.google.com/groups?q=meme+immersive+forth&hl=en&lr=&group=comp.lang.forth.*&safe=off&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=46d59l%24kjf%40shellx.best.com 14:03:45 yeah, it has "a token-threaded Forth interpreter" 14:04:38 clf? 14:04:47 comp.lang.forth 14:06:37 hrm.. token-threaded is mostly to make the code smaller? why wouldn't he use a faster thread implementation? :) 14:06:46 --- part: edrx left #forth 14:07:05 Platform neutral object code, probably. 14:08:42 g'bye for now. 14:08:44 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 14:18:16 hm 14:39:26 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 14:40:22 --- quit: I440r (I440r) 15:05:47 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp99-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 15:22:15 --- join: cleverdra (jfondren@1Cust143.tnt4.florence.sc.da.uu.net) joined #forth 15:51:14 --- quit: Fare (Leaving) 16:17:39 --- quit: cleverdra (Leaving) 16:23:44 --- quit: aaronl_ (The name's X. Bitch X.) 18:32:03 --- quit: lar1 (Ping timeout for lar1[adsl-63-203-73-199.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]) 18:34:19 --- join: lar1 (lar1@adsl-63-203-73-199.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:15:13 argh 19:15:21 how do i put a string on the stack? 19:15:26 i'm using swiftforth, it's interactive 19:15:27 heh 19:15:33 how do i put a string on the stack? :) 19:15:36 there's no help :( 19:20:44 nevermind 19:20:51 it's in some stupid directory 19:47:57 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 20:28:17 * Trey is away: sleeping [22:28] 20:32:28 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-88-95.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 22:50:59 --- quit: futhin (Read error to futhin[h24-67-113-99.cg.shawcable.net]: Connection reset by peer) 23:47:01 * aaronl is away: final exams 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.06.06