00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.05.08
04:01:22 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp33-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth
07:04:48 --- join: grurp (grurp@pc19951.batc.tec.ut.us) joined #forth
07:05:10 <Fare> world hello
07:05:52 <grurp> Yo
07:17:46 <Fare> gimme orthogonal persistence or gimme death!
07:17:48 <Fare> (reboot)
08:16:46 --- quit: grurp (Read error to grurp[pc19951.batc.tec.ut.us]: Connection reset by peer)
08:18:47 --- join: grurp (grurp@pc19951.batc.tec.ut.us) joined #forth
08:44:48 --- log: started forth/01.05.08
08:44:48 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
08:44:48 --- topic: 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth'
08:44:48 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Sat May 05 23:27:45 2001]
08:44:48 --- names: list (clog grurp Fare aaronl lar1)
09:02:49 --- join: Trey (Baxter@ns.TreySoft.com) joined #forth
09:38:13 --- join: davidw (davidw@innominate.intercity.it) joined #forth
09:38:22 <davidw> wow... there is one
09:38:34 <davidw> so, how do you eval a string in forth - is it possible?
09:41:36 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth
09:41:42 <I440r> wow
09:41:46 <I440r> lotsappl :)
09:41:59 <davidw> yeah.. I was noticing
09:42:04 <I440r> hehe
09:42:05 <davidw> they don't seem to be lively though
09:42:38 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r
09:42:41 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o Fare
09:42:45 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o davidw
09:42:50 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o Trey
09:42:53 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o clog
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09:43:00 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o aaronl
09:43:03 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o lar1
09:43:07 <davidw> know how to eval a string in forth? if it's possible....
09:43:08 <I440r> :)
09:43:23 <I440r> add it to the dictionary ?
09:44:02 <I440r> evqal in what way ?
09:44:35 <davidw> well, hrm, like in perl or something you would do eval "print 2 + 2"
09:44:52 <I440r> 2 2 + print ?
09:44:55 <I440r> hehe
09:45:15 <davidw> right, but say I want to put that in a string
09:45:20 <davidw> and have it evaled
09:45:34 <I440r> its possible of corse...
09:45:40 <I440r> using a state machine would be easiest
09:46:18 <davidw> hrm
09:47:35 <I440r> i would still use the dictionary to evaluate that statement
09:47:42 <I440r> i would have a word called print
09:47:52 <I440r> that set the "printing" state
09:47:59 <I440r> then i would parse the 2
09:48:02 <I440r> put it on the stack
09:48:25 <I440r> then i would have a new definition for + which would defer the addition till the end of the statement
09:48:34 <I440r> then teh second 2 would go on the stack
09:48:38 <I440r> hmmm
09:48:39 <I440r> wait
09:48:48 <I440r> you could use an operator stack and a parameter stack
09:48:54 <davidw> the impression I'm getting is that this is not a standard part of forth;-)
09:48:57 <I440r> print goes on the op stack
09:49:05 <I440r> the numbers go on the parameter stack
09:49:38 <I440r> then at the end of the statement (the crlf) you pop eachg item off the operator stack one at a time and execute them
09:49:42 <I440r> so you execute +
09:49:46 <I440r> then nyou execute print
09:49:48 <I440r> !!!!
10:03:57 <aaronl> I440r: !!!!!!
10:04:02 <aaronl> I440r: Hey!!!
10:04:06 <I440r> hi :)
10:04:06 <aaronl> where have you been?
10:04:16 <I440r> im in PA working
10:04:21 <aaronl> I440r: I've been playing with i386 asm
10:04:24 <aaronl> I440r: it's very fun
10:04:26 <I440r> cool!
10:04:28 <I440r> hehe
10:04:36 <aaronl> I440r: i've been writing a CSS descrambler and a simple RPN calc
10:04:44 <aaronl> I440r: But i ran into one problem....
10:05:01 <aaronl> I440r: How can i multiply esi by an immediate byte?
10:05:18 <I440r> you cantg i dont believe
10:05:21 <I440r> except 
10:05:23 <I440r> if its 2
10:05:25 <I440r> 4
10:05:30 <I440r> 8 or
10:05:40 <aaronl> Hmmm
10:05:42 <I440r> mov esi,[esi*2]
10:05:43 <I440r> etc
10:05:44 <aaronl> It's 10
10:05:53 <I440r> mov eax,esi
10:06:02 <aaronl> Also, can you explain to me lea vs. mov ?
10:06:03 <I440r> mov esi,[esi*2]
10:06:08 <I440r> add esi,eax
10:06:14 <I440r> mov esi,[esi*2]
10:06:21 <I440r> but i would use adds
10:06:25 <I440r> mov eax,esi
10:06:27 <I440r> add esi,esi
10:06:30 <I440r> add esi,eax
10:06:34 <I440r> add esi,esi
10:06:46 <I440r> try interleave those with some other operation if you cann
10:06:49 <I440r> prevent agi
10:07:01 <I440r> or
10:07:04 <I440r> mov eax,esi
10:07:09 <I440r> mov eax,[eax*2}
10:07:15 <I440r> mov esi,[esi*8]
10:07:19 <I440r> add esi,eax
10:07:27 <aaronl> you lost me :)
10:07:31 <aaronl> nasm is pretty cool...
10:07:39 <I440r> where did i los u
10:07:59 <davidw> i386 is stinky
10:08:05 <aaronl> another thing that i find kinda weird is there are only like 7 general purpose registers... and many of them aren't general purpose at all, e.g. eax is hard-coded for mul
10:08:19 <I440r> yea
10:08:21 <davidw> aaronl: welcome to CISC
10:08:21 <I440r> mul and div
10:08:28 <I440r> and aam/aad etc
10:08:36 <aaronl> I440r: You lost me at the beginning of that asm code. you're using adds to multiply it by 10?
10:08:47 <I440r> ok
10:08:55 <I440r> lest say esi is 2
10:08:58 <I440r> mov eax,esi
10:09:01 <davidw> BB
10:09:03 --- part: davidw left #forth
10:09:03 <I440r> eaxd and esi are now 2
10:09:08 <I440r> add eax,eax
10:09:10 <I440r> eax = 4
10:09:13 <I440r> esi = 2
10:09:22 <I440r> mov esi,[esi*8]
10:09:31 <I440r> esiu = 2 * 8 = 16
10:09:38 <aaronl> ok ...
10:09:49 <I440r> ERM I DID THIS WRONG
10:09:52 <I440r> OOPTS CAPS
10:09:53 <aaronl> hehe
10:10:04 <I440r> mov esi,1   ;; lets start easy
10:10:08 <I440r>  mov eax,esi
10:10:19 <I440r>  add eax,eax   ; eax = 2
10:10:36 <I440r> erm im confusing myself
10:10:53 <I440r> I know I got teh rite idea heh let me scroll back :P
10:10:59 <I440r> ok wait
10:11:05 <aaronl> ;; eax is in use, can i use edi or something?
10:11:08 <I440r> mov esi,1
10:11:12 <I440r> ok
10:11:16 <I440r> well use esi and edi
10:11:20 <aaronl> yay
10:11:22 <I440r> mov edi,esi
10:11:28 <I440r> add esi,esi
10:11:44 <I440r> add esi,esi   ; esi now = 4 * original value
10:11:49 <I440r> add esi,esi   ; 5 *
10:11:56 <I440r> erm make that add esi,edi
10:12:04 <aaronl> oh hehe
10:12:05 <I440r> add esi,esi  ; esi now = 10 *
10:12:11 <I440r> diferent....
10:12:16 <I440r> mov eax,esi
10:12:24 <I440r> erm edi even
10:12:41 <I440r> lea esi,[4 * esi]
10:12:54 <I440r> i was using mov before but thats wrong... use lea = load effective address
10:13:00 <I440r> that multiplies esi by 4
10:13:08 <I440r> add esi,edi  ; 5
10:13:10 <aaronl> yeah, i dont quite understand the diff between lea and mov
10:13:13 <I440r> add esi,esi ; 10 *
10:13:21 <aaronl> cool
10:13:27 <I440r> in 99% of the places you see lea
10:13:31 <I440r> use mov
10:13:33 <I440r> mov is shorter and faster
10:13:34 <I440r> BUT
10:13:48 <I440r> when lea is used to MULTIPLY hte register by 2/4/8 etc
10:13:49 <I440r> use lea
10:13:59 <aaronl> i use lea to do things like load the address of a piece of memory into a register, is that wrong?
10:14:15 <aaronl> can i do it with mov eax,nasm_defined_variable ?
10:14:17 <I440r> mov is cheaper
10:14:23 <aaronl> will it pass the address of the data in it?
10:14:32 <I440r> not always
10:14:48 <I440r> foo    dw 10   ; a variable caled foo
10:15:08 <I440r> bar:   dw 10  ; an address called bar
10:15:23 <I440r> mov eax,foo   ;get contents of address foo in eax
10:15:36 <I440r> mov eax,bar   ; get address  called bar in eax
10:15:41 <I440r> they LOOK the same
10:15:45 <I440r> they are very different
10:15:48 <aaronl> eeeek
10:15:50 <aaronl> is it the colon?
10:15:54 <I440r> its another place where x86 is fucked up
10:15:55 <I440r> yes
10:16:01 <aaronl> fuck
10:16:06 <I440r> masm uses the keyword offset
10:16:10 <I440r> mov eax,offset foo
10:16:14 * aaronl switches some leas to mov
10:16:17 <I440r> get teh ADDRESS of foo in eax
10:16:20 <I440r> but thats shitty
10:16:46 <I440r> mov eax,w[foo] ;;; this LOOKS like you are collecting teh CONTENTS of the address
10:16:52 <I440r> which is how its supposed to look
10:17:09 <I440r> i usually use...
10:17:14 <I440r> foo:   dw 10
10:17:19 <I440r> mov eax,foo gets address
10:17:24 <I440r> mov eax,w[foo] gets copntents
10:17:26 <aaronl> Is mov bh, BYTE [ecx+dl-bl] legal? or do i need to split it up, or use lea or something?
10:17:31 <I440r> there is a VISUAL difference
10:17:35 <aaronl> yeah, [foo] is better
10:17:36 <I440r> no
10:17:45 <I440r> thats not legal
10:18:03 <I440r> you can only use reg+reg or reg-reg
10:18:12 <I440r> or number[reg+/-reg]
10:18:15 <aaronl> oh hehe
10:18:18 <I440r> where number is an offset
10:18:23 <I440r> neway im at wrk
10:18:29 <I440r> i gotta get back to it :)
10:18:32 <aaronl> aww :(
10:18:35 <aaronl> thanks for your helpo
10:18:40 <I440r> np :)
10:18:45 <I440r> x86 IS fun
10:18:47 <I440r> i like it :)
10:18:51 <I440r> but its also fscked up hehe
10:19:22 <aaronl>     add ecx, dl
10:19:22 <aaronl>     mov bh, BYTE [ecx-bl]
10:19:22 <aaronl>     sub ecx, dl
10:19:29 <aaronl> yeah, very twisted
10:22:59 <I440r> you cant add dl to ecx
10:23:15 <I440r> you cant use ecx-bl as an offset
10:23:18 <I440r> they must be the same size
10:28:12 <aaronl> Hmmmmm
10:28:14 <aaronl> that sucks.
10:28:30 <aaronl> heh, sshing, eh?
10:28:47 <aaronl> I440r: can you resolve vitelus.com on purplecoder?
10:28:52 <aaronl> I440r: i saw mail bouncing from there
10:29:02 <aaronl> I440r: i tried to forward you something about an in-kenrel forth
10:29:04 <I440r> mail bouncing from where ?
10:29:06 <I440r> oh
10:29:17 <I440r> my mail was fscked up
10:29:25 <I440r> mark4@purplecoder.com shud work now
10:29:55 <I440r> and yea im sshing hehehe
10:31:10 <aaronl> I would be at school
10:31:19 <aaronl> but I have an AP computer science test in a few hours
10:31:23 <aaronl> for 4 hours!@#
10:31:37 <aaronl> and in yucky c++ with crazy abstraction!!!
10:31:51 <aaronl> they PROHIBUTE the use of built in arrays or strings (e.g. raw memory)
10:32:01 <I440r> hehehehe
10:32:02 <I440r> duh
10:32:25 <aaronl> instead you have to use some stupid class that does bounds checking, is slow as fuck, is a pain in the ass to use, and exits your program if you go out of bounds
10:32:53 <aaronl> i still dont understand what's better than a char string[10] (or string: resb 10)
10:33:24 <I440r> thats clever :Pits not
10:33:27 <I440r> erm
10:33:30 <I440r> its NOT better
10:33:43 <I440r> object obfuscation is fucked up
10:33:48 <I440r> more fucked up than x86 asm
10:33:59 <aaronl> they encourage sloppy and stupid programming, making you copy the data all the time (and worse, reallocate much more)
10:34:05 <aaronl> they also discourage pointers for most things
10:34:12 <aaronl> use stupid "references" instead, which are confusing
10:34:17 <aaronl> aaaaarg i could rant forever
10:34:30 <aaronl> Oh yeah, binary operators are prohibuted on the test (!!!!)
10:34:40 <I440r> heehhe????????????/
10:35:04 <aaronl> so are ? :, the "abominable" coma operator, printf, in-line assembly....
10:35:42 <aaronl> I440r: yeah, there was this one sample test problem where you had to toggle a bit. i used xor but technically that's illegall
10:35:48 <aaronl> I440r: they were looking for:
10:35:55 <aaronl> if (bit == 1)
10:35:58 <aaronl>   bit = 0;
10:36:00 <aaronl> else
10:36:04 <aaronl>   bit = 1;
10:36:05 <aaronl> !!!!!
10:36:10 <aaronl> idiots
10:36:19 <I440r> bit != bit;
10:36:21 <I440r> hehe
10:36:22 <aaronl> neway i'll let you get back to your work
10:36:26 <I440r> bot ^= 1;
10:36:29 <I440r> :)
10:36:33 <aaronl> i did bit ^= 1
10:36:34 <I440r> i like ^= hehehe
10:36:48 <aaronl> xor eax, 1
10:36:57 <I440r> bit += 1;
10:37:02 <I440r> that works too
10:37:05 <aaronl> i love ^=1 i use it on all my booleans in c...
10:37:07 <I440r> if its a true bit variable
10:37:18 <aaronl> I440r: yeah, but it sets the next bit, which could be bad
10:37:28 <I440r> not if its a BIT variable
10:37:29 <aaronl> yeah, i see what you mean, actually
10:37:33 <aaronl> yeah, i see
10:37:36 <I440r> most c's dont have bit vars tho
10:37:41 <aaronl> "if you're wasting the upper 8 bits"
10:37:42 <aaronl> yeah
10:37:43 <I440r> mostly only embedded c's do
10:37:49 <I440r> it doesnt waste ANY bits
10:37:54 <aaronl> and in c a value is "true" if it != 0
10:38:09 <aaronl> so 1 +1 != 0 (in an int), and it's true
10:38:18 <aaronl> get back to your work :)
10:38:21 <aaronl> whatcha working on?
10:39:04 <I440r> well i have 10 thousand 5 hundred dollars on my desk
10:39:10 <I440r> im working ona bill acceptor hehe
10:39:18 <I440r> i hafta give it back when im dun :P
10:39:27 <aaronl> hahaha
10:39:29 <aaronl> lol
10:39:34 <I440r> i hAVE 100 $100 BILLS
10:39:38 <I440r> AND 100 $5 BILLS
10:39:40 <aaronl> so you're working on hardware?
10:39:43 <I440r> no
10:39:58 <aaronl> what's a bill acceport?
10:39:59 <I440r> im actually just feeding these bills into the billacceptor 3 times each in each direction
10:40:04 <aaronl> ah
10:40:04 <I440r> so the unit can learn the bills
10:40:10 <aaronl> weird
10:40:10 <I440r> so im not even coding
10:40:15 <I440r> my arm HURTS 
10:40:17 <aaronl> it "learns" differnt kinds of bills?
10:40:21 <I440r> yes
10:40:33 <aaronl> you know, the probe that landed on eros was running forth
10:40:38 <aaronl> it had some honeywell forth chip
10:40:42 <I440r> yea?
10:40:43 <I440r> cool!
10:40:47 <aaronl> yup
10:40:55 <aaronl> i read it in SIGPLAN
10:41:12 <aaronl> you know, i think it would be cool to port efdtt to forth
10:41:18 <aaronl> i already ported it to asm, just have to test...
10:41:31 <aaronl> this is efdtt:
10:41:32 <aaronl> #define m(i)(x[i]^s[i+84])<<
10:41:32 <aaronl> unsigned char x[5],y,s[2048];main(n){for(read(0,x,5);read(0,s,n=2048);write(1,s
10:41:32 <aaronl> ,n))if(s[y=s[13]%8+20]/16%4==1){int i=m(1)17^256+m(0)8,k=m(2)0,j=m(4)17^m(3)9^k
10:41:32 <aaronl> *2-k%8^8,a=0,c=26;for(s[y]-=16;--c;j*=2)a=a*2^i&1,i=i/2^j&1<<24;for(j=127;++j<n
10:41:32 <aaronl> ;c=c>y)c+=y=i^i/8^i>>4^i>>12,i=i>>8^y<<17,a^=a>>14,y=a^a*8^a<<6,a=a>>8^y<<9,k=s
10:41:34 <aaronl> [j],k="7Wo~'G_\216"[k&7]+2^"cr3sfw6v;*k+>/n."[k>>4]*2^k*257/8,s[j]=k^(k&k*2&34)
10:41:36 <aaronl> *6^c+~y;}}
10:41:56 <I440r> that loks nice :P
10:42:04 <I440r> show that to ur coding teacher in school hehehehe
10:42:09 <aaronl> it's a CSS descrambler. questionably legal. i want to make a statement by making a new one, in forth. they alraedy have them for scheme, brainfuck, perl, etc
10:42:12 <aaronl> I440r: i did, actually
10:42:15 <aaronl> I440r: she got pissed
10:42:26 <I440r> hehehehehehehehe
10:42:43 <aaronl> anyway, how would I do that with a stack, like in forth?
10:42:48 <I440r> ur coding teacher is a SHE ?
10:42:56 <I440r> no wonder ur learning to code fucked up shit likle that :P
10:42:59 <aaronl> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/hannum-pal.html
10:43:02 <aaronl> I didn't code that
10:43:05 <aaronl> someone else did
10:43:09 <I440r> aha
10:43:10 <I440r> hehe
10:43:11 <aaronl> I _ported it_ to asm
10:43:28 <aaronl> my coding teacher likes object obfuscation, but she also digs asm
10:43:32 <aaronl> she's very smart, quite cool
10:44:59 <aaronl> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/plain-english.html
10:47:02 <I440r> whose pages are those ?
10:47:41 <aaronl> DST's
10:47:48 <aaronl> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/
10:48:45 <I440r> aha
10:48:45 <I440r> well back to "hardly working"
10:48:45 <I440r> hehe
10:52:22 --- log: started forth/01.05.08
10:52:22 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth
10:52:22 --- topic: 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth'
10:52:22 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Sat May 05 23:27:45 2001]
10:52:22 --- names: list (clog @I440r @Trey @grurp @Fare @aaronl @lar1)
10:53:35 <aaronl> Heehee
10:53:41 <aaronl> yeah, my dad has an EB-6 flight calculator
10:53:51 <aaronl> it's a couple rotating disks with log tables
10:54:27 <I440r> thats a circular slide rule
10:55:28 <aaronl> yes
10:55:41 <aaronl> I'd rather have a PalmPilot though
10:55:47 <aaronl> there's lots of EB-6 emulation software
10:56:15 <aaronl> You know what scares me? http://www.memory4less.com/itemdetail.asp?itemid=331242&selected=overview
10:56:25 <aaronl> i hope that doesn't make programmers be disgustingly sloppy
10:58:05 <Trey> Wow.  512MB for $120.
10:58:16 <aaronl> zsnes for example. it's a snes emulator writen in asm but its binary is FOUR MEGABYTES because the authors were scared of "call" and abused macros instead
10:58:54 <Trey> heh.  Sounds like a good way to kill the I-cache.
10:59:34 <I440r> :)
11:03:19 <aaronl> yeah, and they also don't use bss
11:03:52 <aaronl> src/chips/fxemu2.asm:NEWSYM fxtrace, db 0; times 65536 db 0
11:03:53 <aaronl> src/chips/sa1regs.asm:NEWSYM DecompArray, times 65536 db 0
11:03:59 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM wramdataa, times 65536 db 0
11:04:00 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM ram7fa,    times 65536 db 0
11:04:10 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM vidmemch2, times 4096 db 0
11:04:10 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM vidmemch4, times 4096 db 0
11:04:10 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM vidmemch8, times 4096 db 0
11:04:17 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM tltype2b, times 4096 db 0
11:04:24 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM vidmemch2s, times 4096 db 0FFh
11:04:37 <aaronl> src/endmem.asm:NEWSYM PrevPicture, times 64*56*2 db 0
11:04:48 <aaronl> src/init.asm:NEWSYM StoreBuffer, times 128*32 db 0
11:05:00 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM vrama,       times 65536 db 0
11:05:01 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM mode7tab,    times 65536 db 0
11:05:01 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM srama,       times 65536 db 0
11:05:01 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM debugbufa,   times 10000 db 0
11:05:01 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM regptra,     times 49152 db 0
11:05:01 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM regptwa,     times 49152 db 0
11:05:03 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM fulladdtab, times 65536 dw 0
11:05:05 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM echobuf,       times 90000 db 0
11:05:07 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM spcRamcmp, times 65536 db 0
11:05:09 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM VolumeConvTable, times 32768 dw 0
11:05:12 <aaronl> ....etc
11:05:15 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM NoiseData, times 32768 db 0
11:05:17 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM vcache2ba,   times 262144+256 db 0
11:05:19 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM vcache4ba,   times 131072+256 db 0
11:05:22 <aaronl> src/ui.asm:NEWSYM vcache8ba,   times 65536+256 db 0
11:05:24 <aaronl> heh
11:08:36 <Trey> How can they write that much assembly with so few clues?
11:12:46 <I440r> hehehehehehe
11:13:09 <I440r> trey codes asm ?
11:27:50 <Trey> I've started my own Forth in x86 assembly, but I have a wife and kids and not enough free time :-)
11:30:54 <I440r> hehehe
11:31:01 <I440r> cool :)
11:31:21 <I440r> i got now ife and no kids and to much free time and im STILl not putting much time into isforth 
11:31:22 <I440r> duh
11:31:54 <Trey> Or into improving your typing skills, it seems.
11:36:29 <I440r> i can type 35 wrong words per minute :P
11:36:36 <Trey> Heh.
11:39:10 --- nick: Trey -> TreyAFK
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13:26:40 <Azynheira> Hello
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23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.05.08