00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.04.05 00:01:46 --- quit: aaronl (restarting X) 00:38:12 --- join: ree (jwm@twisted.goodnet.com) joined #forth 01:45:12 --- quit: ree (Ping timeout for ree[twisted.goodnet.com]) 06:08:56 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 06:08:56 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r 06:09:03 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o clog 06:09:07 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o ult 06:19:47 --- join: IroBack (b@usr226.wb.intergrafix.net) joined #forth 06:20:20 hi all 06:20:38 i need some 4th info. anyone awake? 06:22:44 yea 06:22:46 im awake 06:22:49 whats up ? 06:22:55 ur a forth coder ???? 06:22:56 cool :) 06:23:31 what do you need to know 06:23:39 hi and good morning 06:23:48 :) 06:23:59 well, first, i'm looking for a forth implementation for linux written in nasm. 06:24:12 thatgs what this channel is about 06:24:21 this is my channel and im writing one 06:24:26 its not finished yet tho 06:24:29 oh okay, excellent (I shall return) 06:24:39 do you code x86 ? 06:24:40 2nd, are you thnking of making it into a kernel mod? 06:24:44 i can, yes 06:24:52 email me 06:24:57 tell me abot you 06:25:01 i440r@mailcity.com or 06:25:06 mark4@purplecoder.com 06:25:10 i need developers :) 06:25:11 i've been using 4th since the early years. i'm better at thinking in forth than progrmming tho 06:25:18 ok. i'm idknow@bigfoot.com 06:25:55 noted 06:25:59 k 06:26:03 forth is the ONLY high level lang i would even consider 06:26:09 r u in a rush to go someplace ? 06:26:49 no not at all. 06:27:12 good :) 06:27:22 so u code x86 AND forth 06:27:27 ok... ur in :P~ 06:27:27 yes 06:27:33 in? 06:27:43 oh im in! :::::) 06:27:46 hehehee 06:27:48 humour... ur"one of us" hehe 06:27:59 well, thank you very much. :) 06:28:17 "Now that i'm president, the color black is outlawed." 06:28:20 hehehee 06:28:28 isforth sources DO exist and you can check them out but me and tcn are working on some BIG changes to it 06:28:39 but its slow going rit3e now becasuse im rarely here 06:28:48 in fact rite now im at work talking here thru my laptop :) 06:28:49 ok, www addr? 06:29:06 look at channel topic 06:29:15 theres the cvs reposatories there 06:29:26 and i MIGHT have an older version of the nasm sources on my ftp 06:29:33 ftp://ftp.purplecoder.com 06:29:34 i've seen isforth- but my linux died 2 days ago. still reconfiging- just returned online 3h ago 06:29:40 but dont quote me on that 06:29:49 ouch! 06:29:57 yea, it was bad 06:30:01 isforth is my baby... 06:30:12 yea, i've been to your site a few days ago 06:30:16 im also writing an 805 forth :) 06:30:23 its in dire need of some work tho 06:30:24 i think i grabbed the source not sure tho 06:30:28 the sources AND the site 06:30:30 805? 06:30:37 8051 microcontroler 06:30:40 ah! 06:30:43 i do real time embedded control applications 06:30:48 cool 06:31:05 what are you planning with linux? 06:31:15 kernmod? i'd like to see that asap 06:31:34 well. 06:31:35 that really would make linux quite sweet for me. 06:31:42 heres where it might go to start... 06:31:50 i'm no cc++-coder 06:31:57 k.. 06:32:01 a small forth kernel that loads the compilation words, the assembler, the debugger as loadable modules... 06:32:15 k. 06:32:22 i never thought of making the inner core of the forth kernel a linux kernel module 06:32:25 but i like the iade :) 06:32:46 it would be like making LINUX user extensable hehe 06:33:16 rewrite the init scripts in forth hehe 06:33:59 it's mostly a mental project (ala moore) and i'm still trying to think how forthmod would grab kbd input. perhaps replacement for bash that's internel to kernel and avail upon boot 06:34:07 init.4th 06:34:10 yea :) 06:34:14 iade? 06:34:30 :) 06:34:51 it would use syscalls 06:34:55 thats ALL isforth will do anyway 06:35:02 i'm thinking get a 4th kernel into linux then begin to replace cc++ code with words with great/GREATER optimization 06:35:14 there will be NO fucked up c modules linked to isforth kernel 06:35:32 k. 06:35:43 and isforth wont output LINKABLE objects either 06:35:48 executables only 06:35:51 for now 06:36:01 k, but malloc has to be done carefuly 06:36:03 but writing teh extention would be possible 06:36:10 no separated head/bodies 06:36:13 it always does 06:36:17 yea 06:36:22 actually 06:36:26 headers are seperate 06:36:26 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 06:36:28 for a good reason 06:36:29 hehehehee 06:36:36 no there's no good reason 06:36:40 yes there is 06:36:42 turnkey 06:36:53 savbe out the compilaed executable with NO headers present 06:36:57 only if your're gonna write word .o files 06:36:57 makes it ALOT smaller 06:37:04 complications 06:37:05 :) 06:37:07 hehehee 06:37:19 "kiss" it goodbye 06:37:21 :) 06:37:30 i have never liked headless words 06:37:30 isforth is already complicated by thefact that its intended for linux 06:37:47 linux community wiold consider isforth to be heracy 06:37:52 they screw with malloc and mem placement 06:37:55 not headerless words 06:38:02 lettem 06:38:08 compile your application 06:38:11 then when you save the exe out 06:38:13 i want a better sys 06:38:17 hte headers dont get saved out too 06:38:27 your main word gets injected into default 06:38:35 you run the executable 06:38:42 why not? w/o headers you can (i'm thinking persistent objs) 06:38:42 and it runs YOUR app 06:38:50 i understand turnkey 06:38:56 k 06:39:02 that isnt hte ONLY option 06:39:08 you can save with headers present 06:39:12 but don't think heads should be sacrificed, you can't do dyn/runtime lookup of objects then 06:39:15 buht headers are in seperate memory block 06:39:23 that's what i don't like. 06:39:34 the separation complicates everything 06:39:34 its alot neater realy 06:39:40 can't use dictionary struct 06:39:49 no actually it simplifis it in many ways :) 06:39:49 can't do RTime search 06:39:54 how? 06:39:55 for instance 06:40:01 splain, Lucy. :) 06:40:12 new_word: 06:40:15 dw previous_word 06:40:22 db len,'name_field" 06:40:29 dw --> code_field 06:40:39 a whole string of those in memory 06:40:44 alot easier to search thru 06:40:53 actually 06:41:06 switch teh lower 2 items 06:41:09 dw previous 06:41:09 yea but you're (as moore said) adding another inner loop that's unnecessa 06:41:11 dw code 06:41:13 db name field 06:41:23 i can write a VERy tight inner loop 06:41:43 why does it need another loop 06:41:49 i think it's an unnecessa separation/duplication of code 06:41:51 headers are only need during compile 06:41:55 for search 06:42:08 run timje needs no headers 06:42:15 and headers cant affect run time 06:42:20 unless you want to do runtie search which is one way of implementing dyn 4th objs 06:42:51 separation add complexity to th4 whole forth sys. 06:43:11 b/x you have to add words to handle/managge/mung the complixity 06:43:11 nope 06:43:13 it cant 06:43:28 it doesnt 06:43:31 not that i can see.... 06:43:37 "Well our first argument! do you still love me?" roflmao 06:43:43 hehehe 06:43:45 :) 06:43:48 not an arguement.. 06:44:02 explain to me why removing deadwood can affect the code 06:44:10 call it what it is a phylosophical disagreement! :) 06:44:34 deadword? i'm thinking a very optimzed (uncomplicated) kernel 06:44:49 the headers are deadwood ina turnkeyd app 06:45:01 and turnkeyd apps are the only way to go if you do not need to compile aqt run time 06:45:17 so are all creating words 06:45:18 aqt? 06:45:27 thats why im making all creating words a seperate module 06:45:29 at 06:45:39 as i recall, the only reason for headerless are: 06:45:47 1. space recovery, 06:45:59 2. reduction of space usage 06:46:15 3. code-hiding (for distribution) 06:46:25 yes 06:46:25 is there anyother reason? 06:46:34 possibly 06:46:41 during runtime headerless impat = 0 06:46:41 but i cant think of it :) 06:46:50 impact ? 06:47:27 however with all header (yea impact) present runtime object searching (high-level structs) can be mplemented 06:47:42 dynamic ptrs 06:47:51 and the inner loop can do the searching 06:47:55 no fuss no muss 06:47:57 :) 06:48:32 that will be possible in isforth too 06:48:43 what kinf of threading do you use? 06:48:44 savveexe as opposed to turnkey 06:48:53 direct 06:48:55 k 06:48:58 i dont like indirect 06:49:07 tos in [reg]? 06:49:10 subroutine is not a threading and its not forth, its an abomination :P 06:49:14 hehehee 06:49:16 yes ebx 06:49:29 but subr is good for runtime macros 06:49:35 bleh 06:49:36 nope 06:49:38 its not forth 06:49:42 eliminating jmp [ax] 06:49:44 nor is tioken threading 06:49:48 next-looping 06:49:48 direct and indirect 06:49:49 thats it 06:49:57 nothin else counts and idont like indirect hehe 06:50:04 for/next ?? 06:50:05 no 06:50:06 that too has its place 06:50:08 i dislike that 06:50:10 its confusing 06:50:15 no inner-next elimation 06:50:18 next and next are different 06:50:20 yes 06:50:25 inline or jump next 06:50:25 yea next & next 06:50:26 hehehee 06:50:31 lodsd eax 06:50:32 jmp eax 06:50:46 right to elim that, 2 cells? 06:51:00 1.5 cells? 06:51:03 i forgot 06:51:08 gotta look it up 06:51:16 elimin cycles 06:51:40 what else? 06:52:02 wht projects are currently going on? 06:52:28 btw, i'm usually on undernet in #linuxhelp 06:52:34 hang on brb 06:52:34 --- nick: IroBack -> Irobot 06:52:44 this is my normal nick 06:53:03 aha 06:53:05 i know you :) 06:53:18 and various Iro varieties 06:53:19 do you know pengy ? 06:53:21 and aslak ? 06:53:32 nope. where have you seen me? 06:53:41 ive seen you on undernet hehe 06:53:48 i rarely go in #linuxhelp tho 06:53:59 yea. the ppl there are quite polite 06:54:04 but ive been in almost every linux hep chan there is hehe 06:54:12 im usually in #coders on undernet 06:54:15 yea i'm usually banned. :) 06:54:18 hehehehe 06:54:19 been an undernet #coder for over 6 years :L) 06:54:23 me too 06:54:24 heheheh 06:54:24 cool 06:54:34 where are you located? 06:54:57 home town is in indiana but im working for mars electronics in PA right now 06:55:03 PA here also 06:55:11 northeast 06:55:38 im in west chester 06:55:46 i dont know pa very well tho hehe 06:55:55 i'm north of you i think, i'm not a native either. 06:56:02 i dont like PA 06:56:10 the roads are a gordian knott :) 06:56:15 hehehehe 06:57:00 so do u code professionally ? 06:57:02 do you know where the Rochester Forth papers are available online? 06:57:05 what sort of code ? 06:57:06 no i don't 06:57:10 heheh yes i know of them 06:57:15 im originally from upstate ny 06:57:28 but do youknow where they are online? i can't find them. :( 06:57:29 i was born in rochester :) 06:57:32 oh 06:57:34 erm 06:57:35 dunno 06:57:39 cool, i'm an ex-nyc-er 06:57:49 emaiil skip carter.. he would know 06:57:58 hmmm 06:58:38 u know of skip rite ? 06:58:41 taygeta ? 06:58:56 i know taygeta 06:59:10 skip carter owns it hehe 06:59:12 thnks 06:59:16 yea 06:59:19 he used to come on this irc network too 06:59:24 b4 i made this channel tho 06:59:31 cool 06:59:40 i frequent taygeta 06:59:52 :) 07:00:05 i leech his ftp occasionally hehe 07:00:06 so what projects on isforth? 07:00:11 hehe i have too 07:00:28 ? 07:00:35 what projects on isforth ? 07:00:45 what are you working on currently 07:00:51 oh 07:00:52 well 07:00:54 is the kernel runing? 07:00:55 a rethink hehe 07:00:57 no 07:01:01 wlel 07:01:02 ok, to what end? 07:01:03 yes and no 07:01:04 hehe 07:01:32 making a small inner forth kernel with just enough to run 07:01:57 make that core kernel dynamically link any extentions that are needed 07:02:01 have you made a tarball yet? the cvs thing threw me for a loop- i'm remembering now. 07:02:26 check out ftp://ftp.purplecoder.com 07:02:37 tho if its there it might be in an EXTRACTED tarball hehe 07:02:40 plus i dont have current linuxos running 07:02:46 extracted? 07:02:54 and you need nasm 98e 07:03:01 not plane jane nasm 07:03:09 98 i can get easily- i just reconnected my cdrom 07:05:25 u never said 07:05:29 do u code professionally ? 07:05:36 no i don't. 07:05:42 k 07:05:45 how old r u ? 07:05:53 learning forth taught me in part how to think tho. 07:05:55 36y 07:06:05 :) 07:06:08 \im 36 too 07:06:13 do u code c ? 07:06:27 cool, to many damn kiddies on our -net! :) 07:06:34 hehehe 07:07:01 i can but i don't like too, i think forth and then have to transpose (ala music keys) 07:07:11 :) 07:07:58 yea 07:08:02 i do not like c 07:08:05 never have 07:08:11 my first contact with forth was a 6502 figgy back in '80 i think 07:08:19 im 100% asm/forth 07:08:26 c has it's place but forth is excellent. 07:08:27 :) 07:08:37 i learned 6502 first :) 07:09:02 me too- mentally assembling '02 code was the first thing i taught myself 07:09:19 didn't do much with it after that but i knew how 07:09:53 a9 01 85 02 20 c0 00 4c 12 34 07:09:55 hehe 07:10:08 i've since forgotten :( 07:10:09 i learned 6502 by hand reverse engineering asm code 07:10:19 i knew every single opcode by heart 07:10:20 yea did that too :) 07:10:24 yep 07:10:25 that was over 20 years ago tho 07:10:47 did you ever play with the 65816? 07:11:39 nope 07:12:01 68k ? 07:12:04 it is/was a 32bit bin/pin compat 6502, ala 8086/8086- pin outs 07:12:07 i love m68k :) 07:12:13 cool :) 07:12:41 68k was once marketed as 6502 replac cuz of its operand less obj code 07:12:50 but that was albotrossed 07:13:07 all those addr operands remind me of z80 07:13:18 the guy that invented the 6502 worked for motorola i believe 07:13:30 the iapx is a closer relative in that respect 07:13:37 he was designing one of their processors but they were fucking it up 07:13:43 i'd heard that the '02 was designed by vaxen people 07:13:45 so he left and formed mos tech 07:13:55 yea i remember that history 07:13:58 i forget his name now... 07:14:01 but it was ONE guy 07:14:27 i'd like to get my hands on a CRUSOE progrmmers manual 07:14:33 see what that's all about 07:14:48 the way they market it sounds ideal for forth 07:15:00 basically, a meta-cpu 07:15:03 now that's cool1 07:15:05 1 07:15:06 ! 07:15:15 hehe 07:15:18 transdata? 07:15:23 is that the .com name? 07:15:42 i wonder if they've posted such info online 07:16:30 transmeta, that's it. 07:17:32 transmeta 07:19:12 i wonder if they're gonna make a card for pc systems 07:19:37 finale, my kernel compile finished w/o error 07:20:17 isforth ? 07:20:20 oohh 07:20:20 lin 07:20:21 linux 07:20:23 hehe 07:20:23 2.0.0 07:20:28 ack! 07:20:31 why so old ? 07:20:39 im running 2.4.2 07:20:47 and 2.4.3 is out already 07:20:50 it's the only one i have on cd and my upgr to slack71 failed two days ago 07:20:56 so i had to use slack31 07:21:16 tis ok, i'll upgrade packages individually instead 07:21:25 it''l take time but i'll have control 07:22:09 when are you usually here? 07:22:31 usually not here 07:22:35 thesedays 07:22:43 when im between contracts im 24/7 07:22:54 ok when should i look for you? 07:22:56 im cheating rite now tho hehe 07:23:00 :) 07:23:09