00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.03.20 00:23:14 --- quit: clog (Ping timeout) 00:23:14 --- log: stopped forth/01.03.20 00:23:26 --- log: started forth/01.03.20 00:23:26 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 00:23:26 --- topic: 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth' 00:23:26 --- topic: set by ChanServ on [Fri Mar 16 16:53:35 2001] 00:23:26 --- names: list (clog ult aaronl) 03:26:08 --- quit: ult (varley.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net) 03:26:09 --- quit: aaronl (varley.openprojects.net barnes.openprojects.net) 03:26:32 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 03:26:32 --- join: ult (ult@149.149.201.30) joined #forth 09:36:41 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp35-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 13:34:12 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.54) joined #forth 14:07:24 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 14:54:51 --- join: ree (jwm@twisted.goodnet.com) joined #forth 15:51:32 --- join: I440r (mark4@PPPa50-ResalePhiladelphiaMetro10-2R7370.dialinx.net) joined #forth 15:51:38 !!! 15:51:53 hey hey i44or 15:52:00 0r heh 15:52:01 :) 15:52:22 anyone seen tcn lately ? 15:53:08 awhile ago, several days, but I haven't been on much, check the logs perhaps 15:53:25 hehe i dunno where they are kept :) 15:53:34 and clog wont tell me :P 15:55:16 but its good to see this channel survives without me :) 15:55:34 hehe 15:55:48 www.tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ 15:56:29 bookmarking :) 16:20:38 well im gonna go code... 16:20:40 mite bbl 16:20:45 ttyl, have fun 16:20:51 l8er ppl! 16:20:54 --- quit: I440r () 16:28:34 --- quit: Fare (Connection reset by pear) 17:00:33 --- quit: ult (Read error to ult[149.149.201.30]: Connection reset by peer) 17:00:37 --- join: ult_ (ult@149.149.201.30) joined #forth 17:37:08 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 17:42:50 --- quit: ree (Disconnecting) 17:47:29 --- join: ree (jwm@207.98.186.248) joined #forth 17:54:45 --- join: I440r (mark4@PPPa50-ResalePhiladelphiaMetro10-2R7370.dialinx.net) joined #forth 19:21:26 --- quit: ree (Ping timeout for ree[207.98.186.248]) 19:23:32 --- join: ree (jwm@207.98.186.248) joined #forth 19:41:59 --- quit: ree (Disconnecting) 19:54:14 --- quit: I440r () 20:16:37 --- join: ree (jwm@207.98.186.248) joined #forth 20:21:01 --- quit: aaronl (Excess Flood) 20:21:36 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 20:27:29 --- quit: aaronl (Excess Flood) 20:27:41 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 21:05:56 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.57) joined #forth 21:06:05 hey ed 21:06:21 hi ree 21:06:33 have we met before? 21:06:38 not sure 21:06:41 just saying hey =) 21:06:49 so hey again :) 21:06:55 hehe 21:07:01 interested in forth? 21:07:04 I was about to ask you if you were johan4jesus... :) 21:07:11 hah, nope 21:07:17 yes, and you? 21:07:19 I know of him though 21:07:26 well, my friend is 21:07:28 talia` 21:07:32 he's been studying it a lot 21:07:36 and trying to get me into it =) 21:07:44 it = forth? 21:07:50 but I'm more of a assembly/mc guy 21:07:52 yeah 21:07:57 what is mc? 21:08:05 machine code 21:09:31 what are you using forth for? 21:09:47 ah. Back in the days of the 8086 I used to code mc directly... the syntax was something like <% 8021 b0 4a 3e %> (these are random numbers) but I haven't ever learned enough of 386 forth... 21:10:18 I'm writing an alternative Forth, with a differnet inner interpreter, in C + Lua 21:10:23 and you? 21:10:49 dist system 21:11:05 I don't like any of the *nix Forths I've seen, they use double-words for everything, I'd like to have something more compact 21:11:23 could you give more details on "dist system"? 21:11:31 yeah actually 21:11:43 a input independant genetic-like data mining system 21:12:09 self modifying/reproducing code 21:12:29 which forth are you using? gforth? 21:12:49 actually, assembly 21:12:54 :) 21:12:56 I don't really do forth, studied it a little 21:14:07 which assembler do you use? And which OS? I use nasm to generate the bytecodes for my Forth... 21:14:48 nasm, dos 21:14:50 do you use grub? 21:14:54 nasm16/nasm32 21:14:59 hm. 21:15:13 I boot dos off a 100mb zip disk (scsi) 21:15:20 and have a scsi raid setup connected 21:15:41 and then a few ide drives 21:15:48 wow 21:15:55 but eventually it'll be able to boot directly from floppy/ide 21:16:00 or scsi heh 21:16:22 why don't you boot from your hds? 21:16:53 well, initially they'll be purely for data operations 21:16:57 raw data operations 21:17:13 then once the dist system is capable of more 21:21:25 well 21:21:32 i440r is developing isforth 21:21:46 not sure if he has done much with it lately 21:21:49 it's on sourceforge 21:21:52 you can download the source too 21:21:55 it's written in asm 21:22:02 I think it is far from usable 21:22:06 yeah 21:22:21 but it might be a good project to help with 21:22:59 yes, if you like assembly that much 21:23:08 (I don't) 21:23:25 bah =) 21:23:34 what are you going to implement it in, c? heh 21:24:41 I'm implementing my own Forth in C, and the nice thing of it is that it is trivial to call library functions, even the bytecode interpreters of other languages 21:25:12 It already has some running demos. 21:26:18 but I don't think I have prepared a nice tgz of it, and you'd need to install Lua first, so no I'm not doing any proselytizing today :) 21:27:50 heh, what does proselytizing mean? 21:29:13 means trying to convert you 21:29:30 ahh 21:29:40 where are you from? 21:29:41 well, I've used about 10 different HLL 21:29:46 arizona 21:29:53 I'm from brazil 21:30:22 --- quit: Talia` (Ping timeout for Talia`[206-136.dialup.cloud9.net]) 21:30:45 cool 21:32:21 how old are you? I'm almost too old for IRC, I'm 30 :) 21:32:38 hah, 20 21:32:44 you old fart =) j/k 21:32:56 what is j/k? 21:33:02 just kidding 21:33:06 ah ok 21:33:37 which of the HLLs do you like, and which do you hate? I hate Perl (too ugly) 21:34:05 I love Icon, which almost no one has heard of 21:34:46 I don't really like any of them 21:34:55 however, forth appears to be pretty nice 21:36:08 it is, my happiest days in life were when I had a good Forth for my computer... 21:36:27 Forth = happiness 21:37:30 which OS do you use? 21:38:02 dos, freebsd 21:38:13 windows 21:38:37 hm, nice, I was afraid you would say Windows^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H 21:38:50 well, it's installed, I don't really use it 21:39:02 it's just for some peripherals 21:39:07 I haven't used it in ~5 years, it is evil 21:39:28 it scares my neurones away and they take days to return 21:41:44 well, I don't find unix much better 21:41:54 both poor concept systems 21:43:51 aaaaah, but in *nix you can use Emacs "natively", and Emacs is a sort of a big Forth system written in Lisp, so it's a lot of fun (if you use it the right way) 21:45:08 emacs runs fine under windows 21:45:23 I don't like emacs though, I am more of a vi guy 21:46:27 in vi you can't put code in the middle of a text and execute it, you only have those predefined keys 21:46:45 and execute it? 21:47:01 # (find-enode "M-x") 21:47:12 how do you mean by execute 21:47:22 this is a comment in most languages, but it has a lisp expression inside 21:47:49 execute it with C-x C-e, it opens the info page named "M-x" in the Emacs manual 21:48:08 what are you executing I mean 21:48:10 lisp code? 21:48:14 you can place any command in lisp in a comment that way 21:48:16 yeah 21:48:30 so emacs has a internal lisp interpreter 21:48:32 you can do the same with a shell escape under vi 21:48:35 lisp expressions have balanced parentheses 21:48:54 but you can't access vi's inner state with that, afaik 21:49:11 yes, but vi can be implemented in under 50k 21:49:34 actually, you can do a lot with vi expressions, someone implemented a turing machine in vi expressions heh 21:49:35 have you implemented your own vi? Or have you played with its code? 21:49:47 no, I just use it for editing 21:49:52 I don't do lisp 21:50:05 I studied clisp for a little 21:50:31 I've heard that they are almost impossible to use. My impression is that vi is for people that want to say "you can do xxx", but that don't do that, and that don't teach you their tricks. 21:50:51 http://angg.twu.net/eev-manifesto.html 21:51:24 well, I just learned vi, and I think command modes are much better than meta keys 21:51:40 you can do several commands at once without defining additional meta keys 21:52:31 emacs is not about the keys. And once you have written you hyperlinks, commands to invoke debuggers, etc, everything can be done with ridiculousy few keystrokes. 21:52:59 well, vi is about the keys 21:53:04 that is my point 21:53:10 vi looks like windows to me, in that it is not easily extensible 21:53:25 windows is the most extensible operating system there is 21:53:33 in terms of commercial support 21:54:03 ok, I know that (though I don't know the emacs keys) 21:54:34 you can hire pros to extend it for you if you have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$, but you can't extend it yourself, it is difficult, buggy, non-modular 21:54:54 yes, but technically the most extensible =) 21:55:05 albeit a bad example of a concept os 21:55:20 likewise for the 20 year older unix =) 21:55:38 I don't like Linux, I confess. I'm heading for the Hurd 21:56:08 the Hurd is intended to be ridiculousy extensible. 21:56:08 hurd is just as bad 21:56:28 check out brix, pretty good concepts behind it, or uuu 21:56:36 urls? 21:56:39 www.qzx.com, uuu.wox.org 21:56:53 but even those don't go extreme enough 21:57:16 you should try Forth OSs then 21:57:21 colorforth, say 21:57:30 yeah, ultratechnology.com 21:57:38 studied it a little, including the forth chip 21:59:00 me too 22:03:48 I can't believe the kids at uuu/brix are really serious 22:03:55 why? 22:04:02 brix is pretty far along 22:04:15 I've seen their "new" ideas elsewhere 22:04:36 riscos can substitute parts of the kernel on-the-fly 22:04:46 in smalltalk everyhting can be changed 22:04:51 yeah, ignore the constant use of 'new' and 'revolutionary' 22:05:00 you'll find those references in every os project he 22:05:05 heh 22:07:03 older OSs had no memory protection, etc... anyway, I'd like to see reports of what the code is already able to do... oops, brix has no source code available? 22:08:55 he's not releasing the source heh, don't ask me why not 22:09:07 but he's been working on it for years 22:09:15 you don't need memory protection btw 22:09:22 or a kernel of any kind 22:09:33 or user-level servers (horribly poor concept) 22:09:44 I know, I've used Forth without memory protection for a long time 22:10:08 well, it is different, you can protect a system from itself by using capabilities and object oriented inheritance 22:10:30 in fact, doing it that way makes for a much more secure (and fast) system 22:10:40 But I find it nice to be almost unable to crash the system... 22:11:03 ok, but yoy have to have a perfect implementation of a safe language 22:11:08 well, you won't be able to without the proper permission in brix 22:11:28 well, I prefer the non-language approach 22:11:39 simply because of the problems related to language design 22:11:43 and the level of complexity 22:11:54 that is why I think tunes is going about it the wrong way 22:12:02 how would you get protection without a safe language? 22:12:25 I didn't even know that tunes was still alive... lemme check it... 22:12:37 it sure is 22:14:27 do you have an url for tunes? Seems that the one I have is broken... 22:14:54 www.tunes.org 22:17:03 the best thing tunes has is its os review sub project heh 22:17:11 ok... btw, my impression of uuu and brix is that those kids have used marijuana the wrong way 22:17:15 large list of various operating systems, classified 22:17:36 brix developer isn't a kid =) 22:17:40 has been studying computers for a long time 22:17:47 yes, I used to like very much the docs on the site, esp. the revie of languages and OSs 22:17:56 and if you look at the direction current os concepts are going, they are definitely going the non-kernel route 22:18:09 ? 22:18:22 the micro kernel approach sort of went out in the 80's 22:18:35 which is almost as long as gnu has been about 22:20:05 bah, people used to say that free software would never work, etc... people say things, other people believe. I've used Hurd a bit, it's the most exciting OS I've seen 22:20:22 I've used hurd several times 22:20:25 installed it on several hdd 22:20:28 it isn't exciting really 22:20:33 and borrows from many many concepts 22:20:44 and IIRC Mac's Darwin is microkernel-based 22:20:44 there are much further developed systems that are just like it today 22:20:51 which ones? 22:20:51 no 22:20:56 mac's darwin is based off of freebsd 22:21:10 based on the mach version of BSD. 22:21:45 there is no mach version of bsd 22:21:48 mach is seperate 22:22:04 they took freebsd and emulated it on top 22:22:07 the concepts and etc 22:22:10 or so they say 22:22:20 it is very bsd in behavior 22:22:41 but you are not a programmer, you don't mind not having the source or having to buy things, you're suspect to say that the hurd is boring :) 22:22:52 I am a programmer 22:22:56 I program in asm 22:23:14 and I am completely devoted to open source/public domain 22:23:20 hurd is completely boring 22:23:39 in terms of concepts 22:23:49 well, at least we are being honest in that what we are saying is completely subjective... 22:23:50 beos and qnx are good examples of similar systems 22:24:17 very subjective 22:24:23 (click) yes, and they are both microkernel systems... 22:24:29 yes 22:24:32 and so is hurd 22:24:39 they also implement user level servers 22:24:40 like the hurd 22:24:58 the only thing that isn't similar is that hurd does its servers through tcp/udp 22:25:11 which however is similar to concepts of remote shell under unix 22:25:16 which uses rpc 22:25:39 you can tear appart any system today and prove that none of it is original 22:25:48 originality is completely subjective in itself 22:26:24 I started using Linux with the (huh) promise that anyone would be able to write drivers, filesystems, etc... this was false, you needed so much knowledge for that, and then when you got there the system would have become twice as complex... Hurd seems to be much more approachable 22:27:02 I don't mind originality 22:27:02 I don't mind originality in music or art 22:27:11 trying to be original is not the right way to get something really original/intense/great 22:27:27 well, I am just stating my obversation 22:28:06 hurd appears to be much more complex, and is very unix like 22:28:23 hurd was developed already to be POSiX compliant 22:28:41 so I don't really see how gnu's not unix =) 22:29:32 gnu is not proprietary, it is in this sense that it is not unix 22:30:09 well, it was started to develop a new operating system as well 22:30:16 and applications for that os 22:32:02 it seems that nothing is "new" enough for you... 22:32:12 I am not stating it isn't usable 22:32:21 I am just stating it isn't very exciting for me heh 22:32:38 granted though, it isn't really usable currently heheh 22:32:56 it sort of barfs on large harddrives, doesn't stay up that long 22:33:32 which is much better than, say, brix, but you prefer brix's design... 22:33:50 just the design 22:33:59 I don't like brix's language based approach though 22:38:36 I'm not trying to be mean about it of course, I just take operating system study to heart 22:38:47 I am very controversial on the subject 22:41:31 is there any OS you like? 22:41:40 no =) 22:42:41 (changing subject) it would be good if someone wrote a stand-alone forth that could be booted by grub, it would make it easy to experiment with it 22:43:34 well, good you mentioned that, freebsd's boot loader is forth based 22:43:39 you can even do forth within it 22:44:05 I know that, it was one of the first things that gave me a good impression of BSD :) 22:44:52 hey, how do I start FreeBSD in real text mode (not 640x400 simulating text)? 22:45:31 I thought it did, haven't studied that part of it that much 22:45:49 ok 22:46:18 I have to go, I should have been studying, and now I need some sleep... 22:46:25 ok ed, good meeting you 22:46:36 you too 22:46:40 see ya 22:46:41 take care =) 22:46:52 night. You too... 22:46:55 --- part: edrx left #forth 22:55:26 --- quit: ree (Disconnecting) 23:20:32 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 23:23:26 --- quit: Talia` (ShadowIRC 1.0.3 PPC) 23:39:08 --- join: adu (root@adsl-63-201-88-28.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.03.20