00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.02.15 00:25:18 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-90-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 00:35:30 --- quit: aaronl (Read error to aaronl[vitelus.com]: Connection reset by peer) 00:35:55 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 00:51:41 --- join: aaronl_ (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 00:54:45 --- quit: adu (barnes.openprojects.net herbert.openprojects.net) 00:54:45 --- quit: aaronl (barnes.openprojects.net herbert.openprojects.net) 00:55:15 --- join: adu_ (andrew@adsl-63-201-90-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 01:15:50 --- part: adu_ left #forth 02:19:27 --- nick: Fare -> FareAway 03:08:54 --- quit: FareAway (Connection reset by pear) 06:00:45 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp102-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 06:23:58 --- quit: Fare (Connection reset by pear) 08:36:53 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp102-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 13:28:39 --- join: Quozl (james@bay06-ppp0.gil.lisp.com.au) joined #forth 14:18:49 --- quit: Quozl (Ping timeout for Quozl[bay06-ppp0.gil.lisp.com.au]) 14:24:57 --- join: Quozl (james@bay06-ppp0.gil.lisp.com.au) joined #forth 14:53:31 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 14:53:55 anyone of you know anything about Digital's SA800 or System 5500? 14:57:06 --- quit: Talia` (Ping timeout for Talia`[206-136.dialup.cloud9.net]) 14:59:20 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 14:59:26 damn 14:59:31 froze 14:59:43 I take it there were no responses? 15:18:49 thanks anyway =_) 15:29:26 has anyone ever used polyForth? 15:48:03 --- quit: Talia` (ShadowIRC 1.0.3 PPC) 18:00:04 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ppp-190.u1-h2.dca.fcc.net) joined #forth 18:00:04 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 18:00:09 hiya all 18:12:09 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.99) joined #forth 18:19:50 --- part: edrx left #forth 18:53:47 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-90-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 19:10:29 HEY 19:10:33 no one is here? 19:10:48 * aaronl_ is away: quake 19:11:47 ic 19:12:16 I'm here, but busy reading ./, etc. 19:14:46 gotta sleep...bye all! 19:14:47 yey 19:14:48 bye 19:14:49 :( 19:14:58 sorry 19:15:02 dats ok 19:15:03 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:51:18 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 19:58:25 hi talia 19:59:28 do you know much about forth? 20:03:06 i know a bit 20:25:48 wudup? 20:25:50 adu: compiling and immediate words and making your own language using them ... 20:26:20 adu: ... i think you need to do a fair bit of study (like half an hour) to master these, using a good book or tutorial. Have you got any books? 20:27:00 ic so it compiles right away..... makes sense 20:28:07 not on forth 20:28:09 cheers adu 20:28:13 i have many urls 20:28:15 well, yes and no 20:28:27 as for mainstream Forth systems, probably not as much as most of the people here 20:28:37 I use a very specialized Forth system 20:28:48 a forth machine? 20:28:51 probably so much as to be useless for most other people 20:28:56 system = compiler/interpretter/etc. 20:29:00 ok 20:29:18 why do you ask? 20:29:47 i'm trying to implement a, um "IMMEDIATE" word 20:30:06 a set of delimiters like 'code ... end-code' for a different instruction set 20:30:17 yeah, I know what it is...but I am not sure what to tell you 20:30:18 :P 20:30:24 specifically pythonVM 20:30:26 :) 20:30:28 sorry I couldn't be of more assistance 20:30:31 adu: forth is the best language i know for making other languages like it, because it becomes easy to express the problem in that language. 20:30:32 ok 20:30:55 adu: to make a pythonVM you'd need to be able to define exactly what it does and how you want it to be told to do it. 20:30:59 but it will execute right away if i do ': ... ; IMMEDIATE' ? 20:31:13 adu: it will execute when it sees it in the input stream, yes. 20:31:19 cool 20:31:22 adu: example ... 20:31:31 I use a Forth extension set called HMSL, which is a Forth system for earlier macs and amigas....it's pretty good...and has a mess of music-related controller extensions for composition, synthesis, etc. 20:31:38 u want an example? 20:31:46 : bugger ." reminder: fix code here" cr ; immediate 20:31:57 : hello ." hello world" bugger ; 20:32:29 so I repeat, it has turnkey capability, etc...but for most people, the extensions would be useless =) 20:32:32 ic 20:32:35 adu: in this example, during compilation of the new word hello, the old word bugger will activate, printing the reminder message, but when you execute hello later it will _not_ execute bugger. 20:33:03 Talia`: cool, do you write music in forth then? 20:33:27 Quozl: ok ic 20:33:31 well, I am still in the process of better utilizing the system, so I am working around it as a tutorial 20:33:34 but yes, that's the goal 20:33:51 Talia`: :) cool 20:34:09 yeah, I thought so too when I saw this =) 20:34:32 hopefully I will begin to see some real results when I am more confident to undertake something with it 20:35:18 i guess from here i'm on my own... just need to read up a little on the python VM, i have a great place to start tho :) 20:35:29 that's great 20:35:31 excellent luck 20:35:32 py src.... 20:35:34 :) 20:35:36 thanx 20:35:38 =) 20:35:49 i'm hoping to start implementing primitive AI 20:36:06 hah, cool 20:36:07 for what? 20:36:21 and i understand lisp is actually the best for that, but thats not my opinion 20:36:29 yes, I have heard that 20:36:30 to be honest 20:36:32 talia general recognition. 20:36:37 I am not sure Forth isn't particularly bad either 20:36:43 given how cool it is for real-time systems 20:36:47 ya 20:37:01 so, I think there is probably a little conservatism in that recognition by most people 20:37:08 i have some ideas about recognition and memory... 20:37:24 conservatism? 20:37:41 resistance 20:37:53 Quozl: Thanx a bunch, btw. 20:37:53 because they are following traditional school of thought 20:38:04 or because they heard some famous guy used it, blah blah 20:38:22 adu: cool. 20:38:24 the fact of the matter is, LISP was used because at the time there was probably nothing else around that was any better =) 20:38:25 i beleive that AI can be represented in asm even 20:38:37 oh, I am confident it can be 20:39:03 and you just need to set up a constant mimicing machine that tryies to duplicate input and modifies its procedures in order to do that 20:39:27 and i think the best way to do that (or maybe easiest) is in python 20:39:32 yeah, AI isn't my school of thought so I wouldn't know anything about it 20:39:32 or at least python vm 20:39:43 dats ok 20:39:51 i'll give you the forth sources when i'm done 20:39:52 :) 20:39:57 that'd be great 20:39:57 =) 20:40:06 btw, have you ever used polyForth? 20:40:36 do you understand why i want to use python tho? its a generic iset that can be generated... 20:40:42 polyForth? no 20:41:14 no, since I never worked with python 20:41:14 i think that optimally it should be able to generate direct bytecode, but that would be dangerous. 20:41:34 but, try me 20:41:37 well, Python can evaluate itself, and has its own VM, like Java... 20:41:59 so it compiles code kinda like Elisp too into .pyc files 20:42:11 and i'm hoping to also allow it to run .pyc files from forth...hehe 20:42:19 hah, cool 20:42:24 sounds like a fun undertaking 20:42:31 ya 20:42:46 yeah, lisp is probably only used because of tradition 20:42:51 the pythonVM is stack oriented too, so it should be fairly easy... 20:43:01 yeah 20:43:06 sounds great 20:43:20 so tell me about that music exention lib 20:43:49 hmsl? 20:44:02 yeah 20:44:25 hmsl stands for hierarchial musical specification language 20:44:29 sorry about the spelling 20:44:34 it's basically Forth 20:44:46 cool 20:44:59 like ps is "basically forth" or is it really similar? 20:45:00 i'm a singer, i know about hierarchical music ... tenors (like me) at the top, baritones behind, basses are outside in the courtyard. 20:45:05 with a mess of extensions added to the language, primarily using Forth's own capabilities to work with new definitions in the dictionary 20:45:16 Quozl: haha 20:45:31 yes, you basically work very in such a fashion....at least when referring to note events 20:45:31 i'm a baritone too 20:46:16 according to the layer in the hieracrchy, it's actually quite possible to execute note events and other statements in a certain fashion without just following a top of the page to a bottom of the page note event ordering 20:46:53 so, that's the fundamental idea 20:47:24 you now have a series of extensions that interface to standard MIDI routines (e.g. Apple MIDI Libraries, old ones albeit) 20:47:49 and things that allow you to preliminary toolbox capability, timing control, etc. 20:48:08 and a bunch of math libraries, which were primarily aimed at the Amiga version (which allowed synthesis with its internal sound hardware) 20:48:23 but I find should be useful for many other things 20:49:02 * aaronl_ is back (gone 01:38:18) 20:49:37 in the end, you can write anything from a real-time program that accepts and parses input to a full fledged composition 20:50:19 like most Forth systems, they provide full source 20:50:33 to the musical extensions and the Forth system 20:50:35 itself 20:50:46 and the system requirements are *very* lean 20:50:49 and it's very fast 20:51:09 so, I don't know if I am boring you or not, so I am kind of skipping the details 20:51:09 =) 20:51:10 i also wanted to learn more about threds 20:51:17 i heard some forths can do threads 20:51:26 you don't need threads if you have good event driven functions. 20:51:40 well, not really 20:51:56 truly. 20:52:13 Quozl: depends on what you're doing 20:52:16 i've had 23 years at this game, and while i've done some threading, it has all been unnecessary. 20:52:28 adu: state a case where threading is absolutely required. 20:52:29 ic 20:52:44 http://www.softpanorama.org/People/Ousterhout/Threads/ is a good paper on the issue. 20:52:53 the only case i can think of is multitasking, and thats just using itself.....i guess i can't 20:53:01 mm, .lisp.com.au 20:53:04 alright 20:53:09 adu: THE OPEN FIRMWARE SONG SCARES ME 20:53:09 aaronl_: eh? 20:53:14 HMSL has preliminary threading, but they are mostly implemented in musical structures 20:53:18 as opposed to the Forth itself 20:53:19 aaronl_: i LOVE the ofw song! 20:53:23 if I remember correctly 20:53:29 aaronl_: Lithgow Internet Service Providers. ;-) 20:53:38 Quozl: aww :) 20:53:41 I will tell you more about HMSL when I know a little more about it myself =) 20:54:00 because, I have at this point a handful of knowledge, but I am stilling missing a few pieces 20:54:12 after reading that Ousterhout paper, i've finally been able to prove to myself why i can't find threads to be useful. 20:54:27 and unfortunately, like assembly language, HMSL doesn't really become all that useful until you understand just about all of what it has to offer 20:54:43 the only place i've had to use threads is where something already uses them. xtank, for example. ;-) 20:54:44 o/~ fix the bugs in real time o/~ 20:54:52 o/~ bring the kernel up in real time o/~ 20:54:52 even if you don't always need what it it has to offer 20:54:57 who sings the ofwsong? 20:55:09 cwoa thats scary only about 10% of programs are tread programmers 20:55:45 I will be back in an hour 20:55:53 I have to get some food (haven't eaten all day) 20:57:00 da 20:57:08 db servers is a good reason for 20:57:15 i understand 20:57:23 bye 20:58:07 cool, hopefully will see you soon =) 20:58:10 bb =) 20:58:12 fix up bugs in no real time, bring the kernel up in no time... 20:58:12 see you 20:58:26 adu: yup 20:58:27 we'll have an FCode time! 20:58:40 who wrote that song? 20:58:51 using emacs on the keys! 20:58:56 aaronl_: don' know 20:59:05 that person needs some real mental help :) 20:59:10 save in nvram is you please... 20:59:19 hehe 21:00:12 heirarchical diversity... 21:06:40 dev-info tree 21:06:50 you don't know much about ofw do you? 21:07:06 tsk,tsk,tsk 21:43:25 YEY 21:43:29 i finished the header file 22:03:52 --- quit: Quozl (Ping timeout for Quozl[bay06-ppp0.gil.lisp.com.au]) 22:04:19 hello all =) 22:33:52 --- quit: aaronl_ (Ping timeout for aaronl_[vitelus.com]) 22:39:32 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 22:44:20 --- join: aaronl_ (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 22:45:52 --- quit: aaronl (Ping timeout for aaronl[vitelus.com]) 22:59:24 hi aaronl 23:04:28 YO i got a ?n 23:04:35 what does postpone do? 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Bitch X.) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.02.15