00:00:00 --- log: started forth/01.02.11 00:06:24 I'm back 00:06:58 i am here 2 now 00:08:12 edrx: i'm about to go 00:08:23 adu: :( 00:09:10 johanrussouw, adu: things are much nicer here after a joint, but I can spend the rest of the night programming if none of you want to talk... 00:09:29 i can talk 00:09:39 i wanna play with forth really 00:10:09 and what have you tried already? 00:10:36 so if u give me a moment i will try and o a cvs checkout on isforth or whatver whoever wants me to play with 00:11:00 edrx: i want to talk about asm 00:11:09 well have bigforth etc 00:11:13 I don't even know if isforth is running, I think not 00:11:15 k i will talk asm 2 00:11:25 i don't have a clue how the isforth dict works. 00:11:31 i have used x86 lonf time ago 00:11:39 x86 asm 00:11:53 adu: and you are trying to understand via the asm code? 00:12:07 i wrote my ownx86 forth from scratch many years ago 00:12:16 x86 asm is like C, an unfortunate no-brainer 00:12:28 johanrussouw: I have programmed the 8086, but not much 386 stuff 00:12:30 edrx:yes 00:12:57 jr: aren't you kinda famous? 00:13:30 yes i am after dallas stopped i went into programming 00:13:34 adu: well, it is a no-brainer if you can remember all (or most) of the instructions... 00:13:46 dallas? 00:14:06 jr is dallas why crack about me being famous 00:14:08 edrx: no-brainer in Linus's definition, NOT equiv to Easy. 00:14:15 No-brainer as in Standard 00:14:18 though u taked about soapy dallas 00:14:40 jr's "real name" in dallas was johan russow? 00:14:52 what are you talking about? 00:14:55 what is dallas? 00:15:09 adu: old TV show 00:15:15 I think it ran for years 00:15:15 oooo 00:15:21 how old you are? 00:15:22 no no 00:15:29 i am 39 00:15:32 I'm 29 00:15:40 adu is 19 I guess 00:15:44 * adu quietly mutters 18 00:16:00 adu: :) 00:16:08 cool u named a little yellow star in this client 00:16:18 client? 00:16:25 yellow star? 00:16:26 irc client 00:16:37 i just remember hearing that name somewhere... i can't remember where tho 00:17:12 instead of like edrx blah blah , i mmmade adu quiet etc 00:17:20 it made 00:17:31 this is not a ver nice keybaord 00:17:47 johanrussouw: why? Or, if it some command you gave, how? 00:17:53 s/it/it was/ 00:18:28 no no i think on yours when someone say something i am not sure how i like 00:18:45 say * adu eetete blah in the nect line 00:18:46 adu: what does Linus call a "no-brainer"? with a simple syntax and semantics? 00:19:24 I would like to learn how to do such things in the Emacs irc client 00:20:15 he says Microsoft Products are a no-brainer, as with Intels, becauase you don't have to think: "Can i get games for this?" or "Will i have Database Support for this?" "Can i get this product?" 00:20:39 things like that 00:20:54 adu: like "choosing what everybody else uses"? 00:21:05 basically 00:21:18 he wants linux to be the "no-brainer" 00:21:54 I sometimes think on which Linux distro is he thinking. 00:22:24 he was talking about Linux 3.0 00:22:41 I don't have any experience with Windows, but a RedHat world doesn't look like a good idea for me 00:22:52 Gnome does 00:23:00 i am really starting to like gnome 00:23:05 the more i hear the more i like it 00:23:15 Both Sun and HP are using it 00:23:23 me not, it is too slow on my machine, and I really love console 00:23:45 especially because EVERYTHING we do on console can be automated with Expect 00:23:51 gnome isn't for people who like the console, its for the Desktop lovers. 00:24:43 ...and so every action becomes easily automatable. This is something that AFAIK doesn't happen in X. 00:24:45 gnome sucks 00:24:46 i'm going for a smoke 00:24:50 it's a stupid windows clone 00:24:52 adu: ok 00:25:07 aaronl: thanx for telling us what the minority thinks. 00:25:19 aaronl: I don't know windows, but I can tell you that for me it looks stupid anyway 00:26:12 aaronl: are you using Debian? 00:26:22 edrx: yes 00:26:25 aaronl: on a x86? 00:26:29 yes 00:27:12 I have just made a deb of a version of asteroids that was programmed in 1990 by some dinosaur hackers of that time 00:27:21 wow 00:27:55 I was addicted to that version, the interface always made me feel as if I was using something very intelligent 00:28:12 DCC it over 00:28:30 aaronl: source, binary, or all? 00:28:39 if you give the source i can double-check your work 00:28:46 aaronl: hm, I'm sending all, it's small 00:28:52 ok 00:28:58 brb (gonna prepare a tgz on the console) 00:29:02 but i'll end up building it anyway 00:29:25 aaronl rememeber me 00:29:33 yes 00:29:35 johan4jesus 00:29:51 hey, now I remember you too 00:31:27 aaronl: I debianized it only to start to make it available again, as it disappeared from the net in the last years 00:31:59 aaronl: lintian would scream a lot on it 00:32:07 i noticed. 00:32:13 E: xaster: extended-description-is-empty 00:32:13 E: xaster: binary-without-manpage asteroids 00:32:13 E: xaster: debian-changelog-file-missing 00:32:37 aaronl: and it has a bug in the "quit" key, you'll have to you an option the menu of your wm to exit the game 00:32:41 hehe 00:32:54 games/arcade/asteroids (kill) 00:33:09 the binary should probably be named xasteroids 00:33:34 aaronl: yeah, and I would have to include the "highscores" script in some way... 00:34:02 yes 00:34:07 do you want to package it seriously? :) 00:34:13 you mean sponsor it? 00:34:34 once my NM application is approved i'll upload it for you if you fix the packaging bugs 00:34:41 how can i shoot? 00:34:53 no, I have some packages very carefully done that would need a sponsor if I was to become a developer 00:34:58 aaronl: enter 00:34:59 with a gun and bullets 00:35:11 johanrussouw: or with a spaceship! 00:36:39 how have no idea how awkward those bindings are on a Happy Hacking keyboard :/ 00:36:53 i was joking 00:37:02 aaronl: if you want to take over the package, go on, it needs a lot of work... talking with the authors about licensing, fixing the "q" bug... 00:37:20 what 'q' bug? 00:37:26 aaronl: ugh! :) 00:37:49 * aaronl is away: quake 00:38:39 aaronl: on my machine I can only exit the game (at least after some point) by killing it - the 'q' key starts another game instead of leaving... 00:38:56 edrx how can i shoot u ,and if i get a high score do i win a free forh implementation or a forth bios for my cp 00:39:25 if you shoot me I won;t be able to save the world 00:39:25 my cpu 00:39:49 well i do not want the world 2 be saved 00:40:02 just the nice people 00:40:28 there are lots of free implementations, and some are standalone 00:40:59 saving the world means making the people we don't like cease to exist 00:41:25 yes i am gonna start with you 00:41:30 lol jk 00:42:44 have i alreay killed u 00:42:49 in a certain sense (not very strict) I'm serious with this talk of saving the world... 00:42:56 johanrussouw: kill? 00:42:58 very good 00:43:09 u did not answer 00:43:32 I didn't understand your question 00:43:42 i also wanna save the world , but my idea requires a forth bios in every pentium x86 pc 00:44:26 i was just kiiding and fooling around but serious about wanting a forth bios for x386 00:45:22 if you don't give a good explanation of what you meant by killing me I'll have to place you on the list of the people that need to be either converted or fulminated 00:46:07 johanrussouw: have you tried colorforth, btw? 00:46:21 lol do not go there , i do not really wanna kill anyone 00:46:32 no give addy , is for linux? 00:46:46 i have tried wonforth32 long ago 00:46:48 just the standard american joke... 00:46:53 and alos minos 00:47:09 back 00:47:25 I have tried bigforth/minos a long time ago -- they were too buggy and too obscure then 00:47:31 ahhhhhhhhh 00:47:35 wonfroth now thats a cool name for windows it should lossforth 00:47:58 i feel better 00:48:12 there is no colorfoth for linux yet but there's at least one that will run in dosemu 00:48:24 adu: what happened? 00:48:29 i smoked 00:48:43 aaah. 00:48:53 went for a short walk 00:49:03 did some set u alight 00:49:06 what time is it there? Here the sun is rising 00:49:11 someone 00:49:15 asking me 00:49:27 do a /ctpcp johanrussouw time 00:49:32 or can u now 00:49:38 its 10:51 here 00:49:41 12.49night 00:49:52 there u go 00:49:57 i dislike the western clock 00:50:05 johanrussouw: good trick 00:50:07 japanese time is so much easier 00:50:19 its 0:49 right now 00:50:21 edrx no trick 00:50:46 0049 by the military 00:51:01 we should all use military time 00:51:40 adu: where are you? australia? 00:51:41 we should all stop using time and just carry on with our lives on an asynch method 00:51:51 ccalif 00:51:59 johanrussouw: I'd like to do that 00:52:25 edrx: i used to live in japan until a few months ago 00:52:48 hm 00:52:51 adu did japan go to pot on u? 00:52:53 do you speak japanese? 00:53:05 pot on u? 00:53:20 edrx:yes 00:53:42 how long have you lived there? 00:53:46 6y 00:53:56 just joking , refering to your smoking adu 00:53:57 ...why? 00:54:12 o hehe, no i stick to cigarettes 00:54:22 my mom tought english 00:55:03 from what I heard here japanese schools are a lot of stress 00:55:45 ya, i went to an english speaking school 00:56:02 it was still pretty stressful tho 00:56:41 did you buy your powerpc there? 00:56:49 ya 00:56:55 at a used apple store. 00:57:20 it was still kinda totl when i got it... but now its thought of as OLD 00:57:34 totl= top'o'the line 00:57:40 ok 00:57:50 i wish i had a cube 00:57:54 i want a cube 00:58:13 we're getting an Intel soon tho 00:58:17 do it run slowly by current standards? 00:58:21 we only got macs now 00:58:25 I mean, the ppc 00:58:33 not really its got a 266Mhz cpu 00:59:04 the mac i had before had 300mb HD and 33MHz cpu 00:59:15 so was REALLY happy to get this one 00:59:24 s/so was/ so I was/ 00:59:28 yeah, I understand 00:59:53 and you was having to run really old software on that mac, I guess... 00:59:56 even 6G is starting to get tight tho... 01:00:36 adu: I have 31G - have a lot of free HD space is really good 01:00:42 not really, it was like startard stuff, but i was starting to feel left out, because it was 68k not ppc, and i couldn't run ppc stuff..... 01:01:11 i'm really starting to admire ppc 01:01:56 My goal tho is to make a machine that can run x86/PPC/Sparc/Alpha/MIPS/z80 apps without alteration. 01:02:04 :) 01:02:11 have you ever tried Neon on the Mac? 01:02:17 whats that? 01:02:42 I'd be happy enough to have an F21 that could run Linux... 01:02:46 a Forth-like language 01:03:18 Dr Dobbs used to say wonders of it yeasr ago 01:03:34 when Dr Dobbs was a good magazine, btw 01:04:16 hmm, no i've tried MOPS/pForth/ThisForth/Timbre 01:04:42 and Actor? and Smalltalk? 01:04:52 i've tried Squeak 01:05:00 whats actor? 01:05:02 me too 01:05:12 i really like Squeak 01:05:18 another old language for the mac that seemed to be very good 01:05:33 i've been wanting a Portable Graphics Interface/Desktop 01:05:53 Squeak seems to be the only one to have it 01:05:55 o 01:06:02 AmigaDE also does i think... 01:06:14 brb, 1 min 01:06:17 k 01:06:26 i'm gonna try and get linux inet workin 01:06:27 bye 01:06:41 ok, bye then 01:06:48 --- quit: adu (BitchX-75p1 -- just do it.) 01:10:40 i am an actor 01:10:54 edrx u still here 01:11:01 what do you mean by that? 01:11:10 yeah, still here, but almost quitting 01:12:06 adu asked whats actor 01:12:15 i a liar 01:12:23 i am a liar 01:12:44 k u take care and i c u later okay 01:15:30 --- part: johanrussouw left #forth 01:24:01 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 01:38:21 --- quit: Talia` (Ping timeout for Talia`[206-136.dialup.cloud9.net]) 03:42:45 * aaronl is away: sleep :) 04:03:15 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp39-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 06:12:49 --- join: Fare_ (fare@ppp39-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 06:29:02 --- quit: Fare_ (Connection reset by pear) 06:31:47 --- join: Qryptox (a00039@l083.nwm.dial.mindlink.net) joined #forth 06:39:24 --- part: Qryptox left #forth 07:06:56 --- join: Fare_ (fare@ppp39-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 11:10:03 * aaronl is back (gone 10:32:13) 11:49:46 * aaronl is away: lab 13:48:59 --- join: aaronl_ (aaronl@mcd2.Biol.Berkeley.EDU) joined #forth 14:02:25 --- quit: aaronl_ (restarting X) 14:41:19 --- quit: ult ([x]chat) 14:43:59 --- join: ult (ult@149.149.205.69) joined #forth 16:14:51 --- quit: Fare_ (Connection reset by pear) 17:56:32 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ppp-28.u1-h1.dca.fcc.net) joined #forth 17:56:33 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 17:56:38 hiya all 18:05:51 --- quit: Fare (Connection reset by pear) 18:14:15 * aaronl is back (gone 06:24:28) 18:15:44 --- quit: ult ([x]chat) 19:17:19 --- join: demoncrat (darius@shell.accesscom.com) joined #forth 19:58:47 bye all 19:58:52 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 20:04:56 --- join: ult (ult@149.149.205.69) joined #forth 20:16:57 --- quit: ult (Ping timeout for ult[149.149.205.69]) 20:20:44 --- join: ult (ult@149.149.205.69) joined #forth 20:25:22 --- join: adu (andrew@adsl-63-201-90-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth 20:26:08 hi adu 20:28:47 hi 20:28:57 i'm trying to hack my school 20:29:20 "hack" meaning get by it's beaurocracy. 20:30:59 what fun 20:31:15 I need to hack nsi myself 20:32:43 nsi? 20:33:02 i'm trying to see which classes i should cbi. 20:33:12 cbe rather. 20:33:25 = credit-by-exam 20:33:48 right now i'm taking "Intro To Computers" 20:34:01 and we're learning how to use "PRINT" in QuickBASIC. 20:34:05 :P 20:34:12 I FUCKING HATE it. 20:34:49 erk 20:34:56 they won't let me take any algorithmic or assembly courses, because i don't have the prerequisites. 20:35:08 nsi = network solutions - the dns registrar 20:35:11 what school? 20:35:16 hmmm 20:35:29 solano comm. colg. in CA 20:35:55 cc's aren't known for flexibility... 20:36:00 hehe 20:36:01 ya 20:36:09 if you have a counselor or something maybe talk to them? 20:36:16 i can't get into UCDavis cuz i got bad grades. 20:36:24 i have. 20:36:42 they said cbe is a good way to go to get past prereqs 20:37:08 so can you do that, then? 20:37:20 but i'm not realy here to learn... which is kinda wierd. i'm just here to get good grades. 20:37:41 i hate modern schooling. 20:37:53 I dropped out myself 20:38:16 there are worthless guniuses and succesful zeros. 20:38:29 ironically I went to about the only college that doesn't give you credit for ap exams 20:38:41 heh 20:38:49 i took IB 20:38:55 ib? 20:39:02 and scc doesn't accept those, so i understand 20:39:12 international baccalaureate. 20:39:17 its like Brittan's AP 20:39:21 ah 20:39:27 i went to HS in japan 20:39:32 oh, cool 20:39:58 so i obviously have a really fscked up diploma, and noone understands the courses i took 20:40:02 are those schools fucked too? 20:40:18 they look at "Math Methods" and think, hmm we better put him in Algebra 20:40:46 but little do they know "Math Methods" is an IB PreCalc + Statistics course... 20:40:52 ugh 20:41:10 they have got to let you test out of that 20:41:13 so i'm in Algebra II right now... 20:41:17 not learning anything 20:41:25 just sittin around hoping for a good grade. 20:41:30 i hate HW 20:42:03 demoncrat: they were going to put me into PreAlgebra, so i should consider myself lucky 20:42:11 sheesh 20:42:31 but i got a D in Alebra 2, but then a B+ om Math Methods 20:42:45 i got a D because i never did any HW 20:43:00 homework was my cross back in hs too 20:43:29 and my teacher was always noticing i got A's on my Tests, so she reaised it from a D- to a D... 20:43:35 heh 20:44:20 so, you hack forth? 20:44:24 i suppose i should work on my english tho... i need to get good grades in that. 20:44:26 ya 20:44:46 i have a PowerMac, so i have direct access to a really good implementation of it 20:44:49 OpenFirmware 20:44:51 :) 20:44:58 heh 20:45:38 i still need to learn more, cuz i was hoping to make an app in it 20:45:57 I'm working on a forth-inspired virtual machine these days 20:46:19 i'm still not sure how the frame buffer works in OFW so until i do i'll just be lookin' around... 20:46:25 really? 20:46:35 tell me about... 20:46:43 www.accesscom.com/~darius/froth/ 20:46:45 k 20:47:09 what sort of app you have in mind? 20:48:02 froth, yum 20:48:26 demoncrat: dunno, maybe a very simple windowing system in forth. 20:48:34 that could be fun 20:48:37 hehe 20:49:01 maybe a graphic menu for booting... 20:49:07 maybe something like the oberon system? that seemed a nice mix of simplicity and power 20:49:11 like that x86 botting program 20:49:24 Open**? i forgot the name 20:49:32 not sure... 20:51:26 i can't find the link 20:51:28 n/m 20:52:39 I wonder if you could speed up booting by caching stuff 20:52:50 * demoncrat knows essentially nothing about it 20:53:02 like looking in files for device tree information? 20:53:24 i'm very interested in the boot process, especially on Macs 20:53:39 becaus the x86 boot sequence is very documented 20:53:42 but not PPC 20:54:17 http://www.xosl.org/ 20:54:18 thats it 20:54:30 its a graphical x86 boot loader 20:54:33 is there any nonvolatile memory you can use, other than the disks? 20:54:48 nvram on macs... 20:54:54 its what OFW uses. 20:54:54 --- join: MarkDude (sikoram1@c22453-a.mkspot1.pa.home.com) joined #forth 20:55:10 --- part: MarkDude left #forth 20:55:50 how much do you get? 20:57:58 it's just annoying how booting takes minutes 20:58:48 i understand that theres something builtin that checks a part of the disk that is platform-defined and loads stuff from there into mem, and thats the Boot loader, and THATS the thing that sets up everything for the OS. 20:58:56 I KNOW 20:59:11 i wish there was an OS made for tiny things that booted in 2 seconds 20:59:25 yeah 20:59:27 like basic internet, and text. 20:59:43 that would be awsomely cool 20:59:48 seems like a natural these days 21:00:20 i have MacOSXbeta, and iff you tell it to load Classic on startup it takes like 10mins to load fully. 21:00:37 eek 21:00:58 i want to open the world of PPC OSs 21:01:16 there are lots of OSs for x86 machines, but not that many for PPC 21:01:29 theres Mac and Be. 21:01:50 seems more of a problem that there are lots of unix-like os's but nothing really different is popular 21:01:53 theres also an OS called "PowerOS" made for the ppc from the ground up but its still in devel at sourceforge 21:02:37 i think anything that is different that isn't promosing is unpopular 21:02:47 if there was a promising OS then more people would contribute. 21:02:51 i think. 21:03:21 trouble is part of being promising is being popular 21:03:27 hehe 21:03:28 ya 21:03:42 thats the dillema that faces any OS developer. 21:04:02 but i must say, Apple's doing pretty good with OSX 21:04:12 I've kind of given up on that, which is part of why I'm working on a vm instead 21:04:23 they already have over 100 developers for an OS that hasn't officially been released yet. 21:04:53 VMs are good, i think most people don't realize that because we have really crappy implementations of VMs nowadays. 21:05:12 the jvm is a nice example of that :) 21:05:20 i thought Java was promising, but then there still isn't enough support for it 21:05:34 I thought it was promising in 1996 too 21:05:44 they only support x86 linux, and only Applets on Mac, no applications. 21:06:05 i think only Windows has full support for Java Applications. 21:06:14 that's bizarre 21:06:17 ya 21:06:28 there are some things that you just Can't do with applets 21:06:30 I know you can do java applications on linux 21:06:37 thats col 21:06:42 but not ppc Linux 21:07:07 doesn't kaffe run on it? 21:07:11 and i haven't been able to get Kaffe or JRE 4 ppclinux to work. 21:07:16 ah 21:07:17 o 21:07:25 hm, could you test out my froth thingy? 21:07:26 ya, i've tried. 21:07:30 I've only tried it on x86 21:07:30 sure 21:07:33 in ppc linux? 21:07:35 yeah 21:07:37 ok 21:07:38 is it big-endian? 21:07:47 i think so. 21:07:56 good, that'll be a good test of the portability then 21:08:01 the low oder bytes are at the beginning. 21:08:12 that's little-endian actually 21:08:15 is that big-endiian? i get so confused when thinking about it 21:08:25 little-end first 21:08:43 like it stores it the way you would see it, not in reverse. 21:09:01