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16:32:17 <adu> hi
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17:02:37 <JohanRussouw> hi adu Fare uIt
17:03:06 <Fare> 'hi
17:03:14 <JohanRussouw> how r u Fare
17:04:33 <Fare> not
17:04:38 <Fare> what about you?
17:04:57 <JohanRussouw> not? i am fine , u use linux and forth?
17:05:48 <Fare> which forth? gforth?
17:06:41 <JohanRussouw> yes whatever , i have not been using forth in a long time
17:07:12 <JohanRussouw> i wanna put forth in my pc's bios
17:07:57 <Fare> like, put OpenBoot in OpenBIOS?
17:08:36 <adu> hi all
17:09:17 <Fare> writing some OpenBoot, then a BIOS in OpenBoot might be fun
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17:10:08 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
17:15:42 <adu> hi
17:15:51 <adu> howz the bw going?
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17:16:45 <tcn> hey
17:17:02 <TheBlueWizard> hiya adu....doing ok.....my bug report was reject due to lack of interest in fixing it :((((
17:17:11 <TheBlueWizard> hiya tcn
17:17:33 <tcn> hehe.. what bug?
17:18:16 <Fare> tcn: wassup?
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17:19:16 <TheBlueWizard> bug $68646, posted to Progeny at CosmicRay's "advice" (I'll gripe about that to him when he is back online)
17:19:57 <adu> thats too bad
17:20:41 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...and I thought Linux community is renowned for responsive bug fixes... I've learned otherwise
17:23:00 <adu> responsive
17:23:02 <adu> hehe
17:23:22 <TheBlueWizard> :-]
17:23:58 <TheBlueWizard> I'd bet a "ForthOS" hacker would be, um, nore responsive than a Linux hacker ;)
17:25:31 <tcn> hahaha
17:25:48 <adu> yes yes
17:26:02 <TheBlueWizard> :)
17:26:21 <tcn> heh.. a forth os is a lot easier to fix..
17:27:23 <TheBlueWizard> I440r's project could be regarded as a step in the direction of developing a "Forth OS", if ever.... :)
17:27:39 <adu> yes, it would be
17:28:36 <tcn> i have a forth os..
17:28:45 <TheBlueWizard> oh?
17:28:54 <tcn> and some russians have one..
17:29:19 <tcn> they pinched some i/o code from mine
17:29:39 <TheBlueWizard> heh...as long as it's GPL'd it's ok :)
17:31:51 <tcn> yup
17:34:20 <tcn> adu.. how's your PPC port going?
17:34:50 <adu> i've got my asm code to call the syscall for writing to stdout
17:34:57 <adu> :)
17:35:00 <tcn> cool
17:35:03 <adu> but nothing more yet
17:35:20 <TheBlueWizard> great!  now you can start debugging stuff....
17:35:20 <tcn> linux?
17:35:32 <adu> no darwin
17:35:39 <tcn> what's that??
17:35:47 <adu> apple's FreeBSD
17:35:54 <tcn> ahhhh
17:35:56 <tcn> hehe
17:36:29 <adu> i'll try it on linux when its upto speed, but right now i'm more concentrated with keeping in touch. i'm still trying to get my linux inet workin
17:36:42 <tcn> linux sucks
17:36:56 <adu> maybe i should stick with osx then
17:37:08 <adu> cuz i can't get ANY forths to compile under osx
17:37:21 <adu> i tried gforth/pforth
17:37:31 <adu> and everything else is for x86
17:38:40 <TheBlueWizard> everything?
17:39:21 <tcn> what's osx?
17:39:44 <TheBlueWizard> MacOS X
17:40:23 <tcn> hmm, that sucks too
17:40:47 <tcn> so what's wrong with darwin?
17:44:10 <TheBlueWizard> Darwin is the GUI part
17:48:14 <tcn> ok, so let's get isforth running :)
17:48:26 <tcn> the C forths all suck anyway
17:49:16 <tcn> we need new forths for these new platforms
17:50:48 <TheBlueWizard> C forth sux alright....C isn't meant for implementing Forth anyway :)
17:51:35 <tcn> hehe, you know what's scary, I was thinking of writing a VBA forth
17:52:18 <adu> tbw: nooooo
17:53:06 <adu> tcn: hahahahaha
17:53:20 <adu> Darwin is the name for Apple's FreeBSD
17:53:27 <adu> the GUI's name is Quatrz
17:53:42 <TheBlueWizard> oh?
17:53:46 <adu> yes
17:53:58 <adu> i'm starting to like OSX's Architecture
17:54:17 <TheBlueWizard> that's news to me
17:54:40 <adu> Quartz = new name for NeXTSTEP's "Desplay PostScript"
17:55:02 <adu> Darwin = name for "The Unix Kernel"
17:55:26 <tcn> dps.. hehe
17:55:43 <adu> dps is cool
17:55:45 <adu> and fast
17:56:00 <tcn> hmm.. interesting
17:56:11 <adu> these windows are soo much more complex than MacOS's and they display like 4x as fast.
17:56:26 <tcn> i'm starting to mess w/ regular PS now
17:56:31 <TheBlueWizard> 4x? hmm!
17:56:33 <adu> all the windows have a shadow in back of them
17:57:18 <adu> tbw: well, maybe 2x. they just draw faster.
18:00:35 <TheBlueWizard> I see....PS displaying does require CPU work...but fortunately we now have fast CPU, so it isn't a big issue anymore....but I'd love to see PS recasted into Forth clothing...should be interesting
18:02:13 <tcn> I notice it treats lists, strings, comments, and control-flow blocks in the parser - not as regular words
18:02:32 <adu> maybe i could work on a mod to ppp-isforth for OSX's graphics server for an interactive ps interpreter
18:02:36 <adu> ppc
18:02:39 <adu> rather
18:03:07 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: PS does that?
18:04:35 <tcn> yeah, seems to
18:05:25 <tcn> there may be some sense to it.. 
18:06:35 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....I think it just tokenize a few pieces such as { } /xxxx whatever, and then lets the PS "defs" do the rest of the work....I still have PS 2 reference book lying somewhere in my apt hehe
18:06:47 <tcn> but with regular forth you can write programs to process it, as long as you follow some rules..
18:07:03 <tcn> yeah, that't it
18:07:25 <adu> ps is very forth-like tho isn't it?
18:07:35 <adu> many things separated by space
18:07:43 <tcn> basically it is forth
18:07:45 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...shouldn't be too hard to parse PS...but you have to be a bit more careful, since spaces aren't delimiters like in Forth
18:07:58 <adu> hmm
18:08:24 <adu> maybe i could make ppc-isforth have modules that can alter the forth interpreter
18:08:31 <TheBlueWizard> adu: PS is a lot like Forth, yes...stack-oriented, etc....just has a "higher level" syntax
18:08:41 <adu> ya
18:08:41 <tcn> is ps a typed language?
18:08:51 <adu> it'd be a REAL pain to get it to understand pdf.
18:08:53 <TheBlueWizard> weakly typed, yes
18:09:18 <TheBlueWizard> I personally ban pdf stuff...Adobe is so idiotic
18:09:49 <tcn> yup
18:10:23 <TheBlueWizard> then IIRC Adobe is cooking up a successor to PDF, which is even worse....
18:11:07 <tcn> hmm.. does acrobat display PS files?
18:11:43 <TheBlueWizard> dunno.....but fortunately ghostscript can display ps and pdf
18:11:57 <tcn> some pdf's
18:12:07 <TheBlueWizard> I've noticed that acrobat is picky about pdf....*sarcasm*
18:13:27 <adu> dinner
18:13:33 --- nick: adu -> adu-food
18:14:07 <TheBlueWizard> pdf is just...vomitrocious :)
18:16:29 <tcn> hmm.. so.. isforth is almost running.. wow ;)
18:17:08 <TheBlueWizard> you got it sort of running, eh?  I haven't even tried it....
18:18:16 <tcn> i got the basic terminal i/o words working 3 weeks ago.. been busy ever since
18:18:33 <TheBlueWizard> ah
18:18:51 <tcn> but all the other words are basically complete, just need testing
18:19:13 <TheBlueWizard> I440r shouyld be happy....
18:19:30 <tcn>  i dunno if i440r ever actually tested the words :)
18:20:04 <TheBlueWizard> heh....I know I440r is quite busy right now....
18:21:04 <tcn> work?
18:21:20 <TheBlueWizard> contract work, IIRC
18:22:47 <tcn> yeah..
18:26:20 --- nick: adu-food -> adu
18:27:49 <tcn> haha.. i see i440's conversation about the FPU.. 
18:27:58 <tcn> i've wondered about that
18:29:20 <tcn> so he says, if they put as much effort into the integer unit as they put into the FPU, floating point would not be faster
18:30:27 <adu> interesting
18:31:16 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha ha....true...then again, Inumb poured a lot of $$$ into FPU cuz it was for biz computing, y'know, those accounting stuff
18:31:35 <TheBlueWizard> Inumb = In + dumb
18:34:53 <tcn> ack.. what use is FP for currency??
18:36:10 <TheBlueWizard> can't you read between the lines?   marketing!
18:36:28 <tcn> you'd think accountants would want the money to add up _exactly_ not "close enough"
18:36:37 * TheBlueWizard agrees that using FPU for accounting is real dumb....and shrugs
18:37:08 <adu> hehe
18:37:44 <tcn> it's like the two CAD programs i've used.. microstation (fixed) vs. autocad (float)... guess which is faster :)
18:38:09 <tcn> EVEN on the pentium
18:38:19 * TheBlueWizard ponders, and realizes that is dependent on which CPU is being used :-/
18:38:48 <TheBlueWizard> Pentium.....I'd say FP would have a slight edge......
18:41:38 <tcn> autocad's slower
18:42:05 <tcn> heh.. autocad also uses LISP as its extension language :)
18:42:23 <TheBlueWizard> hmm....interesting....then again how they're implemented is another thing hehe...
18:43:09 <TheBlueWizard> Lisp?  I oft heard Lisp is slow...but I also get rather contradictory stmt that Lisp is now fast...I never have used Lisp though....hehe
18:44:40 <tcn> i think it favors some inefficient techniques..
18:45:11 <TheBlueWizard> that's why I said "implementation issue" ;)
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18:45:48 <TheBlueWizard> merely comparing XP (fixed point) vs FP is tricky enough already....
18:45:55 <tcn> yeah..
18:46:18 <tcn> and a lot of autocad itself seems to be written in lisp
18:46:58 * TheBlueWizard used to think that int math always beat FP math...then learned otherwise....GIMPS uses FP math cuz it is faster than int math....
18:49:02 <tcn> i guess lisp could be fast with an optimizing compiler..
18:50:01 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...I think so
18:51:20 <adu> xp=fixed?
18:51:29 <adu> hmm
18:53:30 <tcn> i'd rather add list-handling words to forth, than use lisp for everything
18:53:39 <TheBlueWizard> what acronym would you use for fixed point?
18:54:17 <TheBlueWizard> traditional Forth likes to do things on the cheap :)
18:55:24 <tcn> adu, you still using gas?
18:59:00 <adu> y
18:59:01 <adu> a
18:59:47 <adu> yes
18:59:53 <adu> why do you ask?
19:01:08 <tcn> oh.. i dunno if it'll work for isforth
19:01:09 <adu> tbw: maybe ip
19:01:25 <adu> tbw: xp = Extreme Programming
19:01:38 <adu> yet ip = internet protocol
19:01:55 <TheBlueWizard> hence the question hehe
19:01:57 <tcn> then don't abbreviate it
19:02:03 <adu> fxp
19:02:11 <adu> flp
19:02:12 <adu> fxlp
19:02:12 <TheBlueWizard> gas syntax is way different from NASM syntax
19:02:18 <tcn> is 5 letters too much to type?????
19:02:21 <adu> ya i've noticed
19:02:39 <adu> i'd rather type 3 than 15
19:02:42 <TheBlueWizard> gas won't be able to assemble NASM source code
19:02:54 <adu> i know
19:03:06 <tcn> and nasm is only for the x86
19:03:06 <adu> i'm perfectly aware of that
19:03:11 <adu> i know
19:03:19 <tcn> well
19:03:24 <TheBlueWizard> adu: use context....it ain't hard....I just use xp for fixed point, and for extreme programming in other context ;)
19:03:37 <adu> but do different ports of the same program haveto be written in the same assembler?
19:03:50 <tcn> you could write a preprocessor for gas..
19:03:57 <adu> tbw: ok, i was just being picky anyway
19:04:07 <adu> maybe
19:04:19 <adu> but still i haveto work on the ppc port.
19:04:31 <TheBlueWizard> NASM --> gas?  hrm....it'd be a lot of work...prolly a no go, since gas makes some assumption about the layout of data and code, IIRC
19:04:39 <adu> tcn: or i could run it thru cpp before gas
19:04:40 <tcn> nononon
19:05:12 <tcn> just a preprocessor to simplify the dictionary linking stuff
19:05:31 <adu> cpp would work for that wouldn't it?
19:05:41 <tcn> doubt it
19:05:47 <adu> hmm
19:06:03 <tcn> i was thinking, write your own.. perl or somethig
19:06:06 <adu> could the preproc'r be written in perl?
19:06:12 <adu> :)
19:06:23 <adu> good idea ;)
19:06:35 <tcn> u know perl?
19:06:55 <TheBlueWizard> ah....building up linked list....some type of preprocessor will help a lot, yes....even NASM seems to suck in that area....
19:06:57 <tcn> i hate it.. but if it works for you..
19:07:04 <adu> yes
19:07:14 <adu> my most succesful programs in unix have been in perl
19:07:33 <TheBlueWizard> in fact I already wrote the dictinary building stuff in Python (Python is pleasant to work with)
19:07:34 <adu> my shell/python/tcl scripts haven't gone real well
19:07:46 <tcn> i messed with a perl preproc.. but then I figured out how to get by with just nasm
19:07:49 <adu> i don't particularly like perl, but it does the job
19:15:47 <tcn> ok see ya all..
19:16:00 <TheBlueWizard> bye tcn
19:16:03 <tcn> gonna do some coding.
19:16:14 <TheBlueWizard> yeah! go code poundin'!
19:17:29 <adu> can you tell me about nasm?
19:18:19 <TheBlueWizard> what do you need to know about NASM?
19:18:35 <adu> i want to know what exactly it does that gas can't. i know about the #def x y #def y 3 #def x 2 thing
19:19:08 <adu> are there docs on it online?
19:19:23 <adu> i don't have info right now. i have 'man'
19:20:21 <TheBlueWizard> ah...NASM supports a lot of things like sections and advanced labelling system...gas isn't really designed for hand coding....it is intended for assembling the compiler's outputting
19:20:43 <TheBlueWizard> I heard gas can easily choke on malformed assembly codes....
19:21:38 <tcn> adu: that #xdefine thing is the main thing
19:22:11 <tcn> and your basic .text/.data sections will be fine
19:22:38 <TheBlueWizard> one caveat: I am not keen on gas; just that I know gas is pretty lame compared to other assemblers.....
19:25:22 <tcn> u could hand-code this thing..
19:26:01 <tcn> or write a really basic assembler.. in perl maybe.. shouldn't be too hard with a RISC chip
19:26:10 <TheBlueWizard> of course you can always hand-assemble stuff, like Steve Wozniak once used to do with his Apple ][ stuff ;)
19:27:06 <tcn> you only need to do a few basic words in asm..
19:28:16 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...just start very small...say, implement that classic inner interpreter thing plus one tiny primitive to ring a bell or something ;)
19:28:27 <tcn> don't bother porting ALL i440r's asm code.. it's overkill.. minimize the amount of asm coding, especially on the first version..
19:28:45 <TheBlueWizard> then loop on that tiny bell-ringer over and over and you would know you've got it
19:28:54 <tcn> heh
19:29:25 <tcn> yeah, i did the inner interpreter and 'A EMIT
19:29:56 <tcn> I mean DD PLIT,'A',EMIT :)
19:30:06 <TheBlueWizard> just implement just enough critical words, with some sort of output routine there (no matter how lame; just see it in action is enough)
19:30:15 <adu> bell-ringer?
19:30:25 <TheBlueWizard> ctrl-G? :)
19:30:47 <tcn> hheh
19:31:08 <adu> mine doesn't do that
19:31:20 <tcn> that would be annoying
19:31:38 <TheBlueWizard> if there is a way to code up a little word that would push a big red button for me, I'd do that....much more noticeable this way.... :)
19:33:12 <adu> hehe big red button :)
19:33:45 <TheBlueWizard> with Redmond being the target in mind ;)
19:33:46 <tcn> we had a box at work that would play some Mozart tune when it turned on.. 
19:33:55 <tcn> haha
19:34:02 <adu> who's redmond? M$?
19:34:08 <tcn> yes!
19:34:22 <adu> i luckily know very little about M$
19:34:28 <TheBlueWizard> Redmond, Washington is M$'s HQ place
19:34:39 <tcn> where's the castle though?
19:34:57 <TheBlueWizard> adu: lucky you....so many people know of that name Redmond....
19:34:59 <adu> i've seen Bill's mansion
19:35:10 <tcn> hey let's all dress up as barbarians and storm the place
19:35:20 <TheBlueWizard> adu: in real life? or in pic or on TV?
19:35:31 <adu> i was in seattle and my aunt lives on the other side of the lake than him, so.......
19:35:55 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: I oft fantasize about pulling off the Million Programmers March, circling the M$ HQ
19:35:55 <adu> they pointed and said... know what that is?
19:35:57 <adu> hehe
19:36:01 <tcn> hahahah
19:36:07 <TheBlueWizard> haha
19:36:48 <tcn> u mean the Hundred Hacker H... H... uhht
19:37:08 <TheBlueWizard> adu: hrm...my big red button evidently would have a big side effect: bye-bye your aunt....
19:37:15 <TheBlueWizard> sowwy!
19:37:17 <adu> PMP
19:37:19 <adu> MPM
19:37:32 <adu> Hurry!
19:37:36 <adu> HHH
19:37:37 <tcn> the Hundred Hacker Hanging??
19:37:41 <adu> no
19:37:49 <tcn> lynch mob
19:37:50 <adu> Hundred Hacker Hurrying
19:37:51 * TheBlueWizard hrms....HHH?
19:38:10 <adu> Hufflepuff
19:38:14 <tcn> hahah
19:38:15 <TheBlueWizard> Hundred doesn't sound dramatic...how about Humongous?
19:38:24 <adu> yes thats good
19:38:42 <tcn> the Gazillion Geek Gathering
19:38:42 <TheBlueWizard> Humongous Hackers H_____.....
19:38:48 <tcn> Hunt!
19:38:49 <adu> hehe
19:38:50 <TheBlueWizard> I like that GGG
19:38:52 <adu> Hunt
19:38:55 <adu> oo i like that
19:38:55 <tcn> hahah
19:39:08 <tcn> bring dogs :)
19:39:09 <adu> Gnu Geek Gathering
19:39:18 <adu> Gazilion Gnu Geek Gathering
19:39:22 <TheBlueWizard> um...better: LLL with Linux in it....
19:39:32 <TheBlueWizard> Bill Gates would really hate that
19:39:34 <tcn> but linux sux
19:39:38 <adu> Lots of Looney Linux (ppl)
19:39:52 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: hey, I like Linux
19:39:53 <tcn> the Linux Losers' Lamefest :)
19:40:01 * tcn ducks
19:40:06 <adu> 10053r
19:40:20 <tcn> ok i admit it, i used to use linux
19:40:21 * TheBlueWizard whams tcn with a little Nerf bat ;)
19:40:30 <tcn> it was better than Slowaris
19:40:37 <adu> tcn: what do you use now?
19:40:40 <TheBlueWizard> I understand...Linux ain't for everyone anyway
19:40:47 <adu> hahaha SLOW
19:40:56 <tcn> freebiesd
19:41:03 <adu> ooo frebsd is good
19:41:24 <adu> darwin is based on freebsd
19:41:34 * adu thinks he said that earlier....oops
19:41:42 <TheBlueWizard> hahaha
19:42:35 * TheBlueWizard quickly qualifies his liking of Linux by saying "Debian Linux, of course....R**Hat sux" :)
19:44:32 <tcn> hey adu, did i440r ever give you my isforth code?
19:44:53 <adu> nope
19:45:07 <adu> i got whatever was on isforth.sourceforge.net
19:45:09 <tcn> ok.. here it is
19:46:06 <adu> UnRuleyis this complete? or an update?
19:46:15 <adu> s/UnRuly//
19:46:32 <tcn> it runs
19:46:43 <tcn> it's the latest
19:46:44 <adu> ok
19:46:48 <adu> thanx
19:47:07 <adu> i swear i haven't gotten my code to do much but print ' '
19:47:17 <tcn> i see i440r wants some changes but I dunno what and he's away
19:47:28 <adu> thats too bad
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19:48:07 <tcn> it don't matter
19:48:38 <tcn> anyway, you may be interested in the ioctl stuff, in io.1
19:48:58 <tcn> howdy aaron
19:49:06 <TheBlueWizard> hiya aaronl
19:49:47 <adu> ok
19:49:51 <adu> i'll take a look
19:53:51 <adu> ok what i've found is that you can't call an interrupt by "int 0x80" or something.
19:54:22 <adu> you do "li 0x80 \ trap" for example.
19:54:35 <adu> li = load immediate
19:54:52 <TheBlueWizard> are you talking about Linux?
19:56:45 <adu> no asm
19:56:51 <adu> ppc
19:57:00 <adu> its rather fun actually
19:57:12 <TheBlueWizard> ah....of course PPC != x86 :)
19:57:46 <TheBlueWizard> um...what reg does li loads?  li r?,0x90?
19:59:33 <adu> li loads into any register
19:59:41 <adu> i wrote that wrong, my fault
19:59:51 <adu> li r1,0x80
19:59:52 <adu> hehe
20:00:23 --- topic: set to 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth' by ChanServ
20:00:29 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o TheBlueWizard
20:00:33 <tcn> li r1,$80 \ trap... that sounds kinda like an ITS syscall
20:00:45 <TheBlueWizard> ah...that's what I'm looking for :)  I know some PPC, but never code in PPC
20:01:01 * TheBlueWizard hits ChanServ with cluebat
20:01:09 <TheBlueWizard> idiotic ChanServ
20:01:41 <tcn> the irc net just did something wierd
20:01:50 * TheBlueWizard nods
20:02:21 <tcn> nickserv acts like I just logged on.. maybe it's host rebooted?
20:02:43 <TheBlueWizard> maybe
20:03:05 * TheBlueWizard mutters some arcane spell
20:03:12 <tcn> and chanserv won't op you until you logon to nickserv right?
20:03:30 <TheBlueWizard> right
20:03:43 <TheBlueWizard> actually, id yourself to nickserv
20:04:25 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard
20:04:30 <TheBlueWizard> there!
20:04:43 <TheBlueWizard> my spell is successfully cast ;)
20:05:00 <tcn> heh
20:05:29 <tcn> z80? i started writing a z80 forth last fall!
20:06:08 <tcn> on a graphing calculator :)
20:08:23 <TheBlueWizard> kewl
20:08:47 <tcn> adu.. hehe, did you know 0 is the filehandle for STDIN/OUT?
20:10:03 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: 0 is stdin....1 is stdout...and 2 is stderr...read any C docs, or bash docs (see how it enumerate the stdin/stdout/stderr...)
20:10:25 <tcn> 6502 sounds nice.. never really programmed one (while knowing what I was doing anyway)
20:10:27 * TheBlueWizard expects tcn to say doh out loud
20:10:38 <tcn> haha
20:10:45 * TheBlueWizard is 6502 pro :)
20:11:50 <tcn> hmm.. i used 1 for stdin and out.. and it worked
20:13:36 <TheBlueWizard> well, the console get connected to 0 and 1 at the start...but that would change with redirections....try < and > stuff...you'll see how things change :)
20:13:37 <tcn> i need to comment this code!
20:15:22 <tcn> thanks :)
20:16:14 <TheBlueWizard> np....if you read the bash doc, you'll learn more...esp on the redirection stuff....
20:18:11 <tcn> heh.. all that 2>&1 crap, eh? i still haven't learned that.. i used to use tcsh
20:19:04 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...tcsh is ancient hehe
20:19:17 * TheBlueWizard used to work a bit with tcsh
20:19:28 <tcn> yup.. |& and >& was all I had to know..
20:19:36 <TheBlueWizard> tcsh is pretty nice....but it is built on non-free csh
20:19:58 <TheBlueWizard> |&?  I never have seen this one before....
20:20:00 <tcn> zsh is also nice
20:20:11 <TheBlueWizard> zsh? not familiar with it
20:20:29 <tcn> |& is | with stderr included
20:21:35 <TheBlueWizard> interesting!
20:23:02 <adu> i want to get into z80
20:23:26 <adu> so 0,1,2 are the actuall arguments for the fhp value?
20:23:51 <TheBlueWizard> fhp?
20:23:54 <adu> i've always thought that was funny
20:23:59 <adu> not fountain head proj
20:24:04 <adu> filehandle pointer
20:24:40 <TheBlueWizard> you mean FILE * as opposed to int?
20:25:00 <adu> fhp is a cersin type used by syscall...
20:25:13 <tcn> 'fd'
20:25:17 <adu> huh?
20:25:23 <tcn> int fd
20:25:27 <adu> wierd
20:25:36 <adu> where did i think that was the type?
20:25:44 <tcn> it's an index to a table of open files
20:26:28 <adu> damn
20:26:42 <adu> i understand now
20:27:18 * adu doesn't feel to dumb; he's a newbie
20:27:24 <adu> s/to/too/
20:27:26 <TheBlueWizard> ok....FILE * is a file handler, while int fd is a file descriptor....fd = 0 is stdin, 1 = stdout, and 2 = stderr
20:27:27 <tcn> me too
20:27:57 <tcn> FILE * is libc crap
20:28:00 <adu> this is fun tho :)
20:28:39 <TheBlueWizard> <stdio.h> predefines three variables (macros actually IIRC) stdin, stdout, and stderr, which are FILE * aliases of indices into fd array
20:28:56 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: no, FILE * is a good thing!
20:33:08 <adu> tcn: but is it still possible to use cpp&gas?
20:33:11 <tcn> but is it necessary in forth?
20:33:21 <tcn> adu: sure
20:33:25 <adu> i don't know
20:33:35 <adu> huh?
20:33:37 <tcn> if cpp will gain you anything
20:33:55 <tcn> tbw: is FILE really helpful in forth?
20:34:01 <adu> i think it might be easier for me if i had some constants defined
20:34:08 <adu> can gas do constants?
20:34:13 <adu> i suppose it would
20:34:29 <TheBlueWizard> adu: for building dict headers? I'm fairly sure it can be done...but it's easier to do it with Perl...even better, with Python
20:35:03 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: I am talking about FILE 
20:35:38 <TheBlueWizard> * being good thing from C perspective (grr re: hitting ENTER prematurely)
20:36:32 <adu> dict headers?
20:36:35 <adu> um
20:36:44 <adu> i am just trying to program in asm first
20:37:13 * TheBlueWizard rubs his eyes
20:37:25 <adu> eh
20:37:31 <adu> tbw: is something wrong?
20:38:25 <tcn> 23:40 on the east coast :)
20:38:38 <TheBlueWizard> nothing...just a tad bit exasperated....
20:38:57 <TheBlueWizard> same here (23:39 :)
20:39:44 <adu> 8:40 here
20:40:04 <adu> 36:58 sec
20:40:16 <adu> no
20:40:18 <adu> i mean
20:40:20 <adu> n/m
20:40:28 * TheBlueWizard laughs uproariously
20:40:37 <adu> 39
20:41:06 <adu> 8:40:57
20:41:12 <adu> 8:41 :)
20:41:36 <adu> i'm a human cloc
20:41:37 <adu> k
20:42:45 <TheBlueWizard> heh
20:43:40 <tcn> hehe
20:43:56 <tcn> ult needs to find a good slut :)
20:44:08 <TheBlueWizard> huh?!
20:44:32 <tcn> sorry, reading logs
20:45:46 <tcn> ack! danish!
20:45:56 <TheBlueWizard> oh...hehe...I don't maintain logs, and I am not always on
20:46:14 <adu> haha
20:46:19 <tcn> tunes.orp/~nef
20:46:22 <tcn> gggg
20:46:26 <tcn> orp
20:46:28 <tcn> org
20:46:46 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
20:47:00 <tcn> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/01.01.23
20:49:23 <adu> wow i'm in forth logs!
20:49:24 <adu> :)
20:54:46 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...ok mind telling me which line makes you remark that ult needs to find a good slut?
20:57:14 <tcn> a couple days before that
20:58:36 <TheBlueWizard> oh...hehe
20:59:35 <tcn> haha.. polyglot
21:00:13 <tcn> bizzare
21:00:32 <TheBlueWizard> polyglot needing a good slut, is that what you're saying?
21:01:54 <tcn> nevermind
21:02:20 <TheBlueWizard> ha ha ok
21:03:21 <tcn> 'hello world' in cobol, fortran, C, sh, asm, pascal. basic.. something like that
21:03:51 <tcn> the comments are all interwoven :)
21:04:33 <TheBlueWizard> heh...I may be rusty in COBOL and Fortran (and perhaps Pascal), but I can do the rest hehe
21:05:00 <tcn> which one(s) use 80-column cards?
21:05:26 <adu> fortran?
21:06:12 <tcn> i think cobol does
21:07:22 <tcn> IBM is still using 60's software..
21:07:42 <TheBlueWizard> COBOL and Fortran (at least in traditional format) both does require aligning and used 80 character width
21:07:53 <TheBlueWizard> yup
21:08:52 <tcn> i see a lot of stuff still using or influenced by punch card formats
21:09:20 <tcn> especially in mil-specs.. christ, they expect you to sort in EBCDIC
21:09:26 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...though that is dying, thank goodness
21:09:55 * TheBlueWizard snaps a smart salute, and starts to piss involuntarily ;)
21:10:06 <tcn> haha
21:10:26 <tcn> yeah, theres some real characters in there..
21:10:35 <adu> imagine if ebcdic and ascii had the same battle as AVI and Mpeg
21:10:58 * adu thinks that might have been naive to say that
21:11:07 <TheBlueWizard> hahaha
21:11:12 <adu> doesn't AVI suck tho?
21:11:39 <TheBlueWizard> I'm not much of an expert in multimedia to make any informed opinions.....
21:11:45 <adu> o
21:11:49 <tcn> I hope George II realizes what a waste it is to give money to the DOD
21:11:51 <adu> have you heard of mpeg4?
21:12:10 <adu> tcn: no such luck
21:12:13 <tcn> i'm being naive :)
21:12:31 <adu> i think ol' gorgy will be a very army-inclined pres.
21:12:35 <adu> o
21:12:36 <adu> hehe
21:12:39 <TheBlueWizard> hey...DoD basically invented Internet ;)   but yeah, (aside from the much needed salary raise) I think it is mostly a waste of money....
21:12:44 <tcn> make them do more with less!! like the commies!!
21:12:44 <adu> didn't catch on
21:13:13 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth
21:13:17 <adu> HEY
21:13:26 <adu> wuzup talia?
21:13:28 <tcn> DOD didn't invent it.. the just funded the universities that did
21:13:34 <adu> AL GORE DID
21:13:34 <tcn> howdy
21:13:39 <adu> hehe
21:13:40 <Talia`> hello =)
21:13:40 <Talia`> how are you?
21:13:45 <tcn> <groan>
21:13:48 <adu> i'm from #osdev
21:13:58 <Talia`> not much, adu.
21:14:07 <Talia`> how about yourself?
21:14:07 <Talia`> hello tcn =)
21:14:10 <adu> its wierd how you can consider a channel your home
21:14:15 <Talia`> how are you, as well?
21:14:17 <TheBlueWizard> hiya Talia`
21:14:21 <adu> so where YOU from?
21:14:36 <Talia`> hello bluewiz....what's new? =0
21:14:39 <Talia`> =), rather
21:14:43 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: point taken :)
21:15:00 <TheBlueWizard> Talia`: nothing much...except disappointment
21:15:41 <Talia`> bluewiz: why is that (if you mind my asking)?
21:16:00 <adu> wait... its 9 here... my stereo must have gotten unplugged.
21:16:09 <adu> hmm
21:16:18 <adu> it ways *:#)
21:16:23 <adu> 8:30 rather
21:17:00 <Talia`> heh....someone gave me their old 486
21:17:11 * adu wishes he could understand this asm code
21:17:16 <TheBlueWizard> Talia`: that my bug report is now not likely to get fixed :(
21:17:27 <Talia`> I have the urge to dig out the remains of m old 486, and bring this one up to speed
21:17:36 <Talia`> theblue: why is that? what bug?
21:17:38 <adu> cool
21:17:42 <TheBlueWizard> Talia`: kewl...wish I can get freebie x86 machines :)
21:17:59 <TheBlueWizard> Talia`: bug #68646 (on Debian BTS)
21:18:04 <Talia`> this is an intel dx2-33....but I an amd dx2-66 that basically is clocked at 90 for some reason
21:18:16 <Talia`> theblue: oh :P
21:18:27 <Talia`> an = have
21:18:30 <Talia`> an
21:18:33 <Talia`> heh...nm
21:18:40 --- quit: tcn (Ping timeout for tcn[207.198.30.97])
21:18:49 <Talia`> dig out my old ensoniq...and maybe play around with some games and maybe install os/2
21:18:51 <Talia`> dunno....
21:19:36 <Talia`> bluewiz: could you point with me a url? my browser is getting a little schizo again
21:21:21 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...type http://bugs.debian.org/68646 should points to that particular bug
21:21:41 <TheBlueWizard> it is rather dated, and some correspondences are left out
21:30:28 <Talia`> thanks, just couldn't browse around without some crashing
21:30:30 <aaronl> TheBlueWizard: why were you using Outlook?
21:30:45 <aaronl> Talia`: I finally got a good midi keyboard!
21:31:02 <aaronl> Talia`: it's a cool yamaha one with a LCD panel and a floppy drive (???)
21:31:12 <TheBlueWizard> aaronl: huh?
21:31:28 <aaronl> From: "The Blue Wizard" <TheBlueWizard@pressroom.com>
21:31:32 <aaronl> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
21:31:43 <Talia`> aaron: neat!
21:31:55 <Talia`> do you know what model?
21:32:03 <aaronl> Talia`: hold on, i'll check
21:32:46 <aaronl> PSR-340
21:33:09 <TheBlueWizard> ah....yep...I don't have the mail system on my Linux machine....yet :)
21:33:18 <Talia`> aaron: neat!
21:33:31 <Talia`> I used to have a 320 I used to bang around with
21:33:41 <Talia`> the sounds on those are actually pretty good for the price
21:33:58 <Talia`> bummer on the bug report ordeal, bluewiz :P
21:34:10 <aaronl> http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gPPK00005PSR340
21:35:17 <Talia`> cool
21:36:08 <Talia`> the 320 appears to have been discontinued =)
21:36:39 <aaronl> hehe
21:36:42 <TheBlueWizard> Talia`: yeah...MSDOS 720K is the only way to transfer data to and from my old Amiga machine....and I stumbled onto that bug....now I have two cruel choices: transfer it onto Winblows then transfer it onto 1.44 floppies (which will not cause the bug since clustersize=1) then transfer it to my Linux...or try mtools (I hadn't have luck with it so far...though I admitted to have tried it only briefly)
21:37:11 <Talia`> that stinks
21:37:16 <Talia`> especially because it is an Amiga
21:37:17 <adu> i wish i knew why
21:37:26 <aaronl> amigas kick ass
21:37:34 <Talia`> all I can say is maybe you should setup a 486 or something to trash around with a bare version of 95 or something
21:37:38 <adu> i want an amiga
21:37:56 <adu> on what platforms is AmigaDE available?
21:38:01 <aaronl> Talia`: that 340 looks like a nice machine. i should start screwing around on it.
21:38:06 <Talia`> as part of an article I am writing for some site....I am trashing around on a Mac Plus and making it jump hoops with an old TX81Z
21:38:16 <aaronl> Talia`: it's my dad's but i could use it too if i learned how
21:38:27 <aaronl> only software i have is Finale Allegro though...
21:38:32 <TheBlueWizard> Amiga is way cool.....
21:38:35 <Talia`> I shouldn't be hard to use at all if it is anything like my old 320
21:38:56 <Talia`> aaron: that's not too bad, is it?
21:39:06 <TheBlueWizard> but the Amiga floppy is limited to reading/writing double density floppies....hardware limitation
21:39:29 <aaronl> Talia`: Yeah, it should work fine for notation
21:39:33 <aaronl> Talia`: But do i want a sequencer?
21:39:38 <TheBlueWizard> adu: AmigaDE is supposed to be cross platform....
21:39:39 <Talia`> I hear you on that...half of the machines I own use double density diskettes
21:39:44 <Talia`> I just bought a bunch of them for my Plus recently
21:39:49 <Talia`> can't take 1.44M's either
21:40:16 <Talia`> more convenient than dealing with a SCSI 1.44M drive...which I have but it isn't too reliable on a Plus (fine on an SE/30, however)
21:40:29 <aaronl> plusses came just after 800k
21:40:38 <aaronl> 512kE introduced double-density diskettes
21:41:03 <Talia`> the 512Ke was released slightly after the Plus, I believe
21:41:12 <aaronl> really?
21:41:15 <aaronl> hmm
21:41:19 <Talia`> let me double check
21:41:28 * TheBlueWizard isn't familiar with Mac history, esp re: floppies
21:41:49 <adu> tbw: i know it is, thats why i'm asking, its not writtin in java tho..... so its gotta be ported first....
21:41:59 <aaronl> http://www.themusiccenter.com/keyboards/Yamaha/images/PSR340lrg.jpg
21:42:36 <Talia`> http://www.mac512.com/system.htm
21:42:54 <TheBlueWizard> adu: kind of yeah....
21:43:16 <Talia`> according to this site, it was
21:43:26 <Talia`> but, you could be right
21:43:32 <Talia`> so I don't know  =)
21:43:45 <Talia`> either way makes sense, unfortunately
21:43:59 <adu> thats wierd. i compiled it halfway with the "cc -S" option into asm, and compiled that, with "as -o" then linked it with "ld -o" and got this message:
21:44:01 <Talia`> my Plus is actually a 128K upgraded with the upgrade kits they discuss
21:44:03 <adu> ld: Undefined symbols:
21:44:03 <adu> _printf
21:44:03 <adu> _write
21:44:03 <adu> dyld_stub_binding_helper
21:44:45 <adu> i need to look at glibc
21:44:49 <TheBlueWizard> well, I need to sleep.... Talia`, I hope you aren't too upset that I'm using M$ stuff hehe (I just use browser, mIRC, email, and some important MSDOS apps...easier this way for now...but for almost everything else, LINUX!!! :)
21:45:00 <adu> tbw: zzz, night
21:45:16 <TheBlueWizard> bye all
21:45:26 <aaronl> hehe
21:45:42 <aaronl> Talia`: mmm, pretty classic
21:45:45 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
21:46:09 <Talia`> why would I get upset about him using MS stuff?
21:46:16 <Talia`> wouldn't I be the damn hypocrit
21:46:18 <Talia`> using mac crap
21:46:21 <aaronl> he probably thinks you're a mac zealot :)
21:46:33 <Talia`> no, I am definitely not =)
21:46:37 <Talia`> I hate mac zealots
21:46:38 <Talia`> =)
21:47:00 <aaronl> i used to be one ;-)
21:47:02 <Talia`> I think macs have a lot of real great qualities, but for every reason I think they're great I can [and will] argue against them
21:47:10 <Talia`> really? =)
21:47:16 <Talia`> what machines did you own at the time?>
21:48:09 <aaronl> all throughout my childhood i had macs
21:48:28 <aaronl> starting with an SE and SE/30 when I was 3-4 and 4-8
21:48:46 <aaronl> then I got a quadra 610 and a performa 460, the former of which is lying on my floor
21:49:19 <aaronl> the quadra was replaced with a 7200/120
21:49:54 <aaronl> and 2.5 years ago i got a G3, but soon gave it up in favor of an intel linux box
21:50:17 <Talia`> wow, that is young
21:50:24 <Talia`> I am rather recent mac user
21:50:28 <aaronl> hehe
21:50:30 <Talia`> I changed to mac exclusively for music work
21:50:59 <Talia`> I like the hardware and love a lot of the applications, but I hate the operating system....
21:51:03 <Talia`> with a passion, in fact =)
21:51:21 <Talia`> brb
21:52:32 <aaronl> i did a some mac programming as a kid
21:52:41 <aaronl> actually wrote some commercial software in middle school
21:52:55 <aaronl> it was really fun but not as "real" as unix
21:53:08 <aaronl> i still miss those days becuase on the mac i could really excersise my talents
21:53:19 <aaronl> on unix everything already exists, and is free, and is so much more complex
21:53:34 <aaronl> the only things that need work are the hard things
21:54:01 <aaronl> but on the mac, i didn't have to be original since software isn't so open. i could compete with others, or be a free alternative...
21:54:22 <aaronl> also i've never found a good equivilent to PowerPlant. That was the best UI design framework i ever saw
21:54:29 <aaronl> brb
21:54:51 <adu> arronl: really?
21:55:58 <adu> i'm having troublee with ld
21:56:08 <aaronl> Talia`: my dad was the founder of global village, which you probably have heard of
21:56:12 <adu> anyone know ld well?
21:56:21 <adu> no way
21:56:23 <adu> wow
21:56:33 <Talia`> yes, I have
21:56:37 <Talia`> aaron: that's neat!
21:56:37 <adu> aaronl: the "Founder"?
21:56:44 <adu> he started it?
21:56:51 <Talia`> how much mac programming did you do?
21:56:51 <adu> like the modem company?
21:56:51 <aaronl> adu: yeah, with a few others
21:56:56 <aaronl> adu: yes
21:56:59 <adu> wow
21:57:16 <adu> woah, duuude
21:57:29 <adu> i wish i could say as much
21:57:45 <adu> i went to macworld.....hehe
21:57:55 <aaronl> Talia`: a little bit. i wrote a few apps, mostly just for fun.
21:58:11 <adu> did i tell you the most complex app i wrote?
21:58:28 <adu> it was a game plugin editor
21:58:38 <adu> aaronl: ever heard of Escape Velocity?
21:58:48 <aaronl> Talia`: i wrote a teleprompter, unfortuantely its web page seems to no longer exist
21:58:49 <Talia`> which machines did you learn the ROM's of?
21:58:50 <aaronl> adu: of course
21:59:06 <aaronl> Talia`: me?
21:59:21 <Talia`> yes
21:59:32 <aaronl> Talia`: what do you mean?
21:59:34 <adu> i wrote an EV plugin editor that was VERY easy to use (more that EVedit) but it could only make plugins, not edit them, i gave up on it
21:59:35 <aaronl> Talia`: the toolbox?
21:59:41 <Talia`> yes
22:00:01 <aaronl> Talia`: i used a bit of toolbox. but I don't understand your question
22:00:06 <aaronl> Talia`: the toolbox is basically the same on all roms
22:00:18 <Talia`> obviously the machines are rather backwards compatible, but I am just curious if you had familiarized particularly with the toolbox routines available on the Plus or another series of machines
22:02:08 <Talia`> yes, but they get more extensive ont eh newer machines
22:02:08 <aaronl> Talia`: no, I never did anything more level than an ocasional INIT hack
22:02:08 <aaronl> Talia`: right.
22:02:08 <adu> i thought Toolbox routines were in the finder
22:02:08 <aaronl> Talia`: however new things are typically added to the System file
22:02:08 <Talia`> like for example, I know a lot of people who program macs in their spare time, but they never really got beyond working out of what the 512K could offer
22:02:08 <Talia`> adu: system file, I believe
22:02:08 <aaronl> Talia`: only the original toolbox is really what's in ROM
22:02:08 <aaronl> Talia`: in fact, the iMac gave up on ROM and put it all in the system folder
22:02:08 <Talia`> well, the 128K/512K offered 64K of ROM
22:02:08 <adu> o, ya, that too, i just thought having it in ROM would be bad... 
22:02:08 <Talia`> the Plus had 128K, and the SE/30 (at least mine) had 512K
22:02:08 <Talia`> adu: well, it can be if there is a mistake =)
22:02:12 <Talia`> or if a revision is needed
22:02:22 <adu> oic
22:02:26 <Talia`> but at the time, it was probably what gave the early machines the necessary speed
22:02:31 <aaronl> Talia`: well, the rom was revised
22:02:38 <adu> so if you take out your hard drive, and put in a blank one by mistake
22:02:42 <aaronl> Talia`: it usually contained a lot of specific hardware support
22:02:44 <adu> hehe
22:02:53 <Talia`> tell me how a 8 MHz machine with less than 1M of memory could successfully chew a gui with some finesse =)
22:03:06 <Talia`> aaron: gotcha
22:03:15 <Talia`> as you can see, I have had very little experience
22:03:18 <Talia`> with programming the mac
22:03:24 * aaronl has an original Inside Macintosh manual :)
22:03:30 <adu> cool
22:03:32 <Talia`> yeah, I have one in the mail now
22:03:54 <Talia`> worth $10 if it has what I think it does
22:03:55 <Talia`> =)
22:03:59 <aaronl> the 128k's gui is faster than most linux desktops. and MS Word on it kicks the ass of abiword any day on a gigahertz chip
22:04:09 <Talia`> haha, yeah
22:04:32 <adu> 128k's?
22:04:35 <Talia`> the impression I had was that the additional ROM [and the system files] added a slew of new toolbox routines
22:04:43 <Talia`> you could choose whether or not you wanted to use them
22:04:46 <Talia`> but they were there
22:04:51 <aaronl> Talia`: it basically does
22:04:56 <aaronl> Talia`: it also can patch the rom
22:05:05 <Talia`> so, hence why I asked my sloppy question
22:05:26 <Talia`> right
22:05:41 <aaronl> Talia`: as for choosing whether or not to use them, it doesn't matter much. You usually don't care whether it's in rom or not. it's just whether apple put it there. no difference to the typical programmer, though
22:05:59 <Talia`> most serious programmers I know can program just about everything up until recently...and the others can hardly power through a Quadra
22:06:27 <Talia`> yeah....when I refer to the ROM I mean whatever is in ROM or in a system file as "pseudo-ROM"
22:06:35 <aaronl> ah
22:06:43 <Talia`> I consider them basically the same thing
22:06:55 <aaronl> they're not. you can ResEdit the system file =)
22:07:02 <Talia`> right
22:07:21 <Talia`> I am just saying....it takes over where the ROM doesn't cover or wasn't meant to cover
22:07:26 <aaronl> yes
22:07:50 <Talia`> they serve the same purpose...so I probably incorrectly lump them into the same term
22:07:55 <aaronl> the rom needs to do hardware support, and getting the OS up... it handles the happy/sad mac, low-level drivers for that hardware...
22:08:03 <Talia`> which isn't a good way to express it to someone who actually knows anything about macs
22:08:05 <Talia`> =)
22:08:38 <Talia`> yeah, it isn't supposed to handle languages or anything like that, but I noticed it does on many machines :P
22:08:40 <aaronl> from that point on the system file could probvide it, but apple put a lot of the toolbox in rom to save ram and disk space (which was capped at 400k back then)
22:08:47 <Talia`> at least on a rudimentary level
22:09:10 <Talia`> yeah....on the SE/30...which they figured most guys would run hard drives they didn't mind
22:09:18 <Talia`> 512K seems like an awful lot of ROM to me
22:09:50 <Talia`> I don't think 400K diskettes are as bad as people say they are
22:09:54 <Talia`> but they are inconvenient
22:10:10 <Talia`> I hear people using just about every four letter word to describe them
22:10:36 <aaronl> can you imagine coding off one?
22:10:42 <Talia`> yes, I could
22:10:56 <aaronl> you need your editor, compiler, System file, Finder, and more on the disk
22:11:34 <Talia`> well, I throw the system-related stuff on one disk, compiler [maybe editor] on another disk, and store my files on a third diskette
22:11:55 <aaronl> have fun swapping!
22:12:01 <Talia`> so, if I have second drive.... usually one of those disks stays in one of the drives...if not...I do the disk dance =)
22:12:05 <aaronl> remember that these need to fit in ram too
22:12:06 <Talia`> yes...I do quite a bit of that =)
22:12:20 <Talia`> I jacked up the RAM cache to about 1M on my 4M Plus, which helps a bit
22:12:33 <aaronl> macs NEED real virtual memory
22:12:43 <Talia`> on 400K diskettes, however....it stores more in RAM than if you work off 800K'ers
22:12:44 <aaronl> and protected memory
22:12:44 <adu> osx has real virt-mem
22:12:55 <Talia`> I HATE virtual memory on all classic mac os systems
22:13:18 <aaronl> yeah, a finnish college student could do so much better than apple when it comes to kernels..
22:13:23 <adu> i'm making a isforth for OSX
22:13:26 <Talia`> that is one of my biggest peeves with particularly os 9
22:13:26 <aaronl> yay
22:13:36 <Talia`> you got it =)
22:13:37 <aaronl> and macos takes too much ram
22:13:46 <aaronl> here my kernel takes 2mb or so
22:13:48 <Talia`> 32M is excessive for a "base configuration" =)
22:13:49 <adu> thats for sure
22:14:09 <aaronl> Memory: 255780k/262080k available (858k kernel code, 5912k reserved, 297k data, 184k init, 0k highmem)
22:14:16 <Talia`> lucky you =)
22:14:18 <aaronl> ok, kernel takes 900k :)
22:14:32 <aaronl> but you still need init, daemons, X (!!!)
22:14:37 <Talia`> 64M is woefully inadequate (what, were they drunk?) for any machine with mac os 9
22:14:51 <Talia`> I am sure it sucks on even 8.5
22:15:02 <Talia`> they shouldn't even sell a consumer machine with that much ram
22:15:22 <Talia`> 128M is about the minimum you can get away with to do anything without worrying about the system freezing
22:15:26 <aaronl> also linux has good caching
22:15:34 <aaronl> it will use free ram for caches
22:15:44 <aaronl> macos has a static buffer --- eek
22:16:07 <aaronl> linux even has a dynamic ramdisk now
22:16:12 <Talia`> after coming away from a world of unix-a-likes and OS/2, I was absolutely appauled at Mac OS's performance
22:16:15 <aaronl> e.g. you move more stuff onto it and it grows
22:16:22 <aaronl> as in good or bad?
22:16:23 <Talia`> especially annoyed because the hardware seemed so nice
22:16:34 <aaronl> yeah, the OS is very slow. especially 8+
22:16:37 <Talia`> appauled = terrible
22:16:55 <Talia`> yeah....stuff starting really slowing down around 7.5.X
22:17:01 <aaronl> yeah
22:17:02 <Talia`> my SE/30 runs 7.1
22:17:06 <aaronl> 7.1 rocks
22:17:11 <Talia`> simply because its the best compromise I can find
22:17:28 <aaronl> my SE/30 ran 7.1 too
22:17:44 <Talia`> my Plus runs 6.0.8...mainly because it allows me to use printers driven by 7.X over AppleTalk and also remain reasonably snappy
22:18:03 <Talia`> both are some of the more common OS's in use =)
22:18:18 <Talia`> yeah, 7.1 is a bit fickle when you overload it, however
22:19:06 <Talia`> mine gets touchy every so often, mainly because I have an extension to enable 32-bit memory addressing (for my 80M of RAM), and also because the SCSI system is totally overloaded
22:19:36 <Talia`> but, 7.5.X is way too slow to give reliable MIDI throughput all the time
22:19:56 <Talia`> I wish the SE/30 had the kind of serial ports they used in the IIfx and a few of the Quadras
22:20:02 <Talia`> that would have been a dream
22:20:40 <aaronl> instead of macos you probably want some real-time OS
22:20:47 <Talia`> yeah
22:20:50 <aaronl> i bet BeOS or QNX would be great for audio if they had the apps
22:20:57 <Talia`> but, as for software support....I don't have any option
22:21:09 <Talia`> they don''t even have the libraries =)
22:21:17 <Talia`> and the hardware support is rudimentary also
22:21:23 <Talia`> particularly on QNX
22:21:41 <adu> i like qnx
22:21:46 <adu> i wish i could try it out
22:21:54 <Talia`> as I mentioned, I have to hand it to Mac OS for having some of the best libraries and music-related extensions around
22:22:00 <Talia`> yeah, it seems really neat
22:22:18 <adu> i'm workin on a gui
22:22:31 <adu> i'm hoping to have it implemented in sdl
22:22:37 <Talia`> MOTU's FreeMIDI is probably the most comprehensive MIDI library I have seen under any OS
22:22:55 <aaronl> root       191 13.5 14.7 56328 37736 ?       S<   Feb07 411:02 X -dpi 100
22:23:02 <aaronl> see, not only macos has memory hogs :)
22:23:07 <Talia`> the closest thing out there was Opcode's OMS (obviously, also Mac OS), and maybe OS/2's RTMIDI which was IBM's last ditch attempt to suck in the music enthusiasts
22:23:11 <Talia`> :D
22:23:15 <adu> Take a look at my gui
22:23:24 <Talia`> sure
22:23:27 <adu> its only in concept stage, but i still think its doable
22:23:29 <adu> http://216.248.201.24/andrew/rws.html
22:23:29 <adu> http://216.248.201.24/andrew/window.gif
22:23:42 <aaronl> hmm
22:23:48 <aaronl> how do you want to implement it?
22:23:58 <Talia`> no one other platform supports professional hardware, unfortunately
22:24:06 <Talia`> so, mac os is really my only choice =)
22:24:08 <adu> in something low-level, yet scriptable
22:24:39 <adu> i first got the idea for it when i wanted a HexEditor OS.
22:24:40 <adu> hehe
22:25:00 <adu> i thought unix's philosophy wasn't carried enough into the gui.
22:25:01 <aaronl> Talia`: you could always use an amiga
22:25:39 <Talia`> aaron: not really....the Amiga might be comparable to my older 68K macs....but they wouldn't replace the function of my power mac by any means
22:26:21 <Talia`> at this point, older 68K macs are not only more cost effective for me, but hardware is readily available, most of the really great Amiga programs are also available for the mac, and the mac is intrinsically [mostly] compatible with my new ppc macs =)
22:26:27 <Talia`> so, good point, though
22:26:40 <aaronl> hehe
22:26:45 <aaronl> i've alwyas wanted to do tracking
22:26:50 <aaronl> but there is no good linux software
22:26:56 <Talia`> yeah, I haven't gotten into tracking
22:26:56 <aaronl> maybe i will play with midi on the mac now instead
22:27:04 <aaronl> using the 7200/120
22:27:13 <Talia`> yeah....MIDI on the mac is basically unparalleled
22:27:16 <Talia`> yeah, go for it
22:27:24 <Talia`> that's a reasonably capable machine for that, too
22:27:38 <aaronl> adu: please remove the need for object technologies! they suck. thanks!
22:27:52 <aaronl> Talia`: it handles finale fine
22:28:25 <aaronl> Talia`: i'm just not sure if i should spend a lot of time screwing around or try to learn how to do it right... i haven't played with music much even non-digitally
22:28:37 <aaronl> do you have your music online?
22:28:45 <Talia`> none, unfortunately
22:28:54 <aaronl> that's too bad
22:28:59 <aaronl> how come?
22:29:01 <Talia`> I haven't gotten around to getting the hardware I wanted, so I am sort of postponing until I can get exactly what I want
22:29:18 <aaronl> why do you need hardware to make MP3's? =)
22:29:20 <adu> wanna hear my music?
22:29:23 <Talia`> some rather expensive MOTU midi and audio interfaces
22:29:41 <adu> i don't know how to make mp3's so i made samples in .wav format
22:29:47 <aaronl> adu: i'd be a bit scared but ok
22:30:07 <aaronl> Talia`: hmm, so they process the midi and output synthesized digital audio?
22:30:08 <Talia`> aaron: because I have an excessive amount of synthesizers, and anything less than a full multi-track arrangement with them would result in my personal dissatisfaction with the whole mess
22:30:09 <Talia`> =)
22:30:09 <adu> http://216.248.201.24/andrew/NewSample.wav
22:30:09 <adu> http://216.248.201.24/andrew/SumrSnow.1.wav
22:30:17 <adu> they're about a meg each
22:30:18 <aaronl> Talia`: :)
22:31:03 <Talia`> well, the synthesizers are stand-alone....I don't use too many direct digital software synthesizers
22:31:12 <aaronl> adu: how did you make those?
22:31:13 <Talia`> except when I have cpu power to burn
22:31:32 <adu> aaronl: with a keyboard, and an RCA audio cable
22:31:37 <aaronl> adu: they're cool
22:31:41 <adu> thanx
22:31:44 <aaronl> adu: you must be a good piano player
22:31:46 <aaronl> unlike me
22:31:50 <adu> i play piano alot
22:32:05 <Talia`> in the end, I would like all of my synthesizers, old macs, and anything I have handled by the power mac
22:32:11 * aaronl listens to beethoven
22:32:17 <adu> and i've taken theory, so its not hard to make somthing that sounds nice
22:32:26 <Talia`> so the power mac is not only the main workstation and sound editor, but also the traffic handler
22:32:27 <aaronl> adu: i should do that
22:32:33 <adu> but i try to include a bit of chaos in my pices
22:32:39 <adu> :)
22:32:50 <Talia`> the rest of the macs would in effect, be no different than say a master controller
22:32:59 <Talia`> since that's exactly what they are
22:33:30 <aaronl> I love the Moonlight Sonata - 3: Presto
22:33:34 <Talia`> I don't consider myself a good player, either =)
22:33:56 <aaronl> the nice thing about a tracker is you don't have to do it in real-time
22:33:59 <Talia`> I have sort of an acoustic instrument aversion, lately =)
22:34:09 <Talia`> I do respect the talent of these individuals, of course
22:34:34 <Talia`> aaron: well, that's true...but to be perfectly honest....real-time is considerably more expressive
22:34:48 <Talia`> it removes the machine-like quality to a lot of synthesized music
22:35:39 <Talia`> I think it's alright to sequence parts of the music, but it isn't often I think an entirely sequenced piece sounds as good as something carefully woven in with real-time
22:35:44 <aaronl> i guess
22:35:48 <Talia`> there's a lot of emotion in imperfection =)
22:36:11 <Talia`> well, at least that's how I feel
22:36:20 <Talia`> obviously, I could be very wrong =)
22:36:30 <Talia`> and it may work just as well for them
22:36:33 <adu> aaronl: ya, thats a very cool piece
22:36:40 <Talia`> just like it doesn't for me =)
22:36:47 <adu> Talia`: did you look at any of the urls i posted?
22:36:50 <Talia`> my Kurzweil Midiboard has a great arpeggiator, however
22:37:18 <Talia`> it has a very "loose" feel to it....it doesn't hammer out notes like a clock
22:37:28 <Talia`> downloading them now =)
22:37:35 <adu> k
22:38:24 <Talia`> I also hate the feel of the Portamento in Yamaha DX and TX series
22:38:33 <Talia`> it is a completely linear glide from one note to another
22:39:03 <Talia`> a lot of newer machines, such as my Kawai K5000 has a kind of acceleration followed by a "squip" sound on a timbre with a fast attack
22:39:08 <aaronl> ever used Rebirth?
22:39:13 <Talia`> it sounds a lot nicer and "higher-tech"
22:39:13 <Talia`> :P
22:39:37 <Talia`> the dx and tx sound a little crude, which is too bad since the principle they operate on is very powerful even by today's standards
22:39:40 <Talia`> no, I haven't
22:39:48 <Talia`> I have done work mostly with HTML and Csound
22:40:30 <Talia`> Rebirth didn't really seem like my kind of program
22:40:39 <Talia`> but I respect the kind of results you can achieve with it
22:40:49 <Talia`> what kind of work did you do with Rebirth?
22:41:10 <aaronl> none
22:41:22 <aaronl> i had friends who did pretty cool techno with it
22:41:27 <aaronl> adu's samples are cool
22:41:40 <Talia`> yeah
22:42:26 <Talia`> I generally like to work with my own sounds on synthesizers, as opposed to samples
22:42:37 <Talia`> so, my angle is a bit different [not necessarily better]
22:43:58 <Talia`> aaron: yes. they are =)
22:44:08 <Talia`> they are quite cool
22:44:28 <Talia`> one of these days, if you are interested, I will try to bring up some work that I wouldn't be too ashamed of showing other people =)
22:45:17 <Talia`> adu is certainly a better piano player than I am, if those are played real-time
22:46:29 <Talia`> I hope not
22:46:38 <Talia`> otherwise I would question why you are =)
22:46:48 <Talia`> are = are here
22:47:31 <adu> Thank You
22:47:46 <adu> i always appreciate compliments
22:48:11 <Talia`> not a problem =)
22:51:52 <adu> did ya see the window.gif? i think its cool
22:52:26 <adu> Talia`: btw, ya they are played real time
22:52:36 <Talia`> adu: both of them?
22:52:38 <adu> ya
22:52:44 <Talia`> jeezus christ
22:52:58 <Talia`> the second one almost surely sounds sequenced
22:53:01 <Talia`> I could swear
22:53:04 <Talia`> that's awfully fast
22:53:22 <adu> its just moving up and down its not at all like one of my newer ones
22:53:35 <adu> my music teacher's trying to get me to make a CD.
22:53:40 <Talia`> neat
22:53:42 <Talia`> go for it =)
22:53:52 <adu> i'm not progressing much on it
22:54:25 <adu> i have 3 cool songs, and 3 not-too-good somgs, and 1 currently-in-devel song
22:55:45 <Talia`> well, I know how you feel
22:56:03 <Talia`> the last few months I have been jammed in a blitz of "writer's block"
22:56:06 <Talia`> if there is even such a thing
22:56:25 <adu> ya
22:57:00 <adu> i'll tell you the title of my newest song
22:57:06 <adu> its the first one with words
22:57:16 <adu> i think i'll call it "Why does it hurt"
22:57:23 <adu> but i'm not sure still
22:57:36 <adu> maybe "Joy Hurts" or "Happiness hurts"
22:58:12 <adu> NewSample.wav is part of it
22:58:28 <Talia`> neat
22:58:32 <Talia`> yeah, cool stuff
22:58:36 <Talia`> best of luck!
22:58:38 <adu> thanx
22:58:43 <adu> you 2
22:58:51 <adu> with midi, or what ever
22:59:14 <adu> my dad's into midi, and i'm more into computers than he is and i still don't get midi
22:59:35 <adu> i like the sound of hammers hitting streatched out metal...
22:59:40 <adu> hehe
23:01:46 <adu> i didn't catch if you got a chance to look at window.gif
23:02:05 * adu apologizes for being all showy
23:03:44 <Talia`> not at all =)
23:03:55 <adu> you didn't see it?
23:03:57 <Talia`> yes, but to be honest, I am not a big gui enthusiast, so I wouldn't be the one to ask
23:04:03 <adu> ok
23:04:05 <Talia`> not at all == being all showy remark
23:04:09 <adu> k
23:04:19 <Talia`> MIDI is actually very easy
23:04:22 <Talia`> there isn't much to it
23:04:32 <Talia`> what about it do you not understand?
23:04:32 <adu> i really think that unix could be aplied to the gui, but isn't.
23:04:42 <aaronl> Beethoven was not sequenced :)
23:04:51 <adu> i just haven't put in the time to get it all setup.
23:05:19 <adu> setup is 2 words isn't it... hahaha
23:05:39 <Talia`> setup? nowadays, I think it's perfectly alright to use it as one word
23:05:40 <adu> aaronl: tru
23:05:44 <adu> ok
23:05:51 <Talia`> I use it because I don't see anyone bitching about it =)
23:06:01 <adu> good point
23:06:08 <Talia`> MIDI wasn't meant for sequencing, plain and simple
23:06:10 <aaronl> both of your samples are cool
23:06:25 <Talia`> that application was an afterthought
23:06:25 <aaronl> hey i can play ode to joy! ;-)
23:06:50 <aaronl> most of my experience is on the clarinet
23:06:52 <adu> i just get so much more pleasure out of pressing the keys of a piano rather than playing with timings and moving things around on the screen, and hearing something that i didn't play.
23:06:59 <aaronl> where i do some jazz, and just mess around
23:07:06 <aaronl> but it's not well-suited to digital music
23:07:28 <aaronl> i actually started coding a real-time audio->midi converter that you could use a microphone with but never finished it
23:07:45 <adu> COOL
23:08:02 <adu> that sounds like its kinda like voice recognition.
23:08:09 <aaronl> yeah
23:08:11 <aaronl> its not so hard
23:08:15 <aaronl> you use a FFT, basically
23:08:27 <aaronl> the hard part is disregarding noise, and being dynamic with what you accept
23:08:34 <adu> i wanted to contribute to a OSS scpeech synthesis proj
23:08:53 <aaronl> it needs a little music theory to go from hertz to notes, but it's doable
23:09:04 <adu> is there one called FreeSpeech?
23:09:04 <aaronl> i would test it with a tone generator :)
23:09:06 <adu> hehe
23:09:51 --- quit: Talia` (Ping timeout for Talia`[206-136.dialup.cloud9.net])
23:09:58 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@206-136.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth
23:10:03 <aaronl> wb
23:10:12 <Talia`> <Talia`> the closest thing I can think of that would apply, wasn't a MIDI converter at all, but was successfully able to distinguish polyphonic intervals in a mix using a extension of a fourier transform
23:10:15 <Talia`> thanks! sorry about that
23:10:26 <aaronl> ahha
23:10:31 <Talia`> a = an
23:10:32 <aaronl> i had a little bit of a start on mine
23:10:56 <aaronl> i got kind of discoraged when i realized that the output wouldnt be so great
23:11:02 <aaronl> i was thinking about MOD output though
23:11:07 <Talia`> it is a neat program...although to be honest I don't have all that much use for it...particularly since I have Igor Pro
23:11:10 <aaronl> that's cool becuase you have access to actual samples
23:11:16 <Talia`> yes
23:11:37 <aaronl> i've heard of audio->midi progs on windows, but only after i thought of the project
23:11:54 <Talia`> in a sense, your program might even draw upon the original mix for the source of the samples and then basically end up a sampled mix =)
23:12:08 <aaronl> yeahh
23:12:10 <Talia`> with note events indicated as MIDI events
23:12:23 <aaronl> basically thats what it did
23:12:39 <Talia`> at the very best, it would sound very similiar....at the very worst...it would sound like a MOD =)
23:12:41 <aaronl> i actually coded the basic app, but it doesn't work ;-) :)
23:12:50 <aaronl> and i never put in more than 5 mins trying to fix it
23:13:18 <Talia`> haha =)
23:13:27 <aaronl> the real motivation for the program was screwing around
23:13:33 <Talia`> well, I could imagine that to be a real bitch
23:13:44 <Talia`> programming issues aside, it still is a hairy problem =)
23:13:45 <aaronl> so i could jam on the clarinet and get sheet music immeidately like MIDI keyboards do
23:13:47 <aaronl> yeah
23:14:02 <aaronl> i had it getting pitch pretty well
23:14:12 <aaronl> and then going to the right midi notes (i think)
23:14:21 <aaronl> so theoretically it should kind of work
23:14:24 <aaronl> but thats where i left off
23:14:51 <aaronl> i'm discrouaged now becuase i know that it's not an original idea and the professional windows programs will always be way ahead
23:14:58 <aaronl> they do pitch wheel stuff that makes the output very convincing
23:15:41 <adu> bye
23:15:45 <adu> i'm going over to linux
23:16:03 <Talia`> take care, adu =)
23:16:03 <Talia`> thanks again!
23:16:05 <aaronl> haha, macos
23:16:24 <aaronl> talia, do you make music professionally?
23:16:28 <Talia`> no, I do not
23:16:33 <Talia`> I am working at that end, however
23:16:39 <adu> thanx to you too!
23:16:41 --- part: adu left #forth
23:16:44 <Talia`> whether this ends up to be the case, is questionable =)
23:16:58 <aaronl> ah
23:17:12 <Talia`> there is a wicked theremin that Big Briar makes (runs around $3000) that has a very wicked MIDI implementation
23:17:24 <aaronl> what do you do for a living, than?
23:17:32 <Talia`> absolutely nothing for the moment
23:17:44 <aaronl> sounds cool
23:18:01 <Talia`> I graduated high school two years ago for the explicit purpose of working on my skills as a musician and sound designer, and acquiring equipment like mad
23:18:03 <Talia`> :D
23:18:16 <Talia`> to see if I had what it would take =)
23:18:17 <aaronl> I'm still stuck in high school
23:18:25 <aaronl> two and a half more hellish years to go
23:18:37 <Talia`> you're very lucky to know so much about programming at your age
23:18:47 <aaronl> apparently.
23:18:47 <Talia`> I am rather behind in that regard
23:19:24 <aaronl> well, i'm behind at other things
23:19:33 <aaronl> such as social conformance
23:21:28 <Talia`> but I made a promise to myself that the only way I would excel with my synthesizer programming, multichannel sound spatialization stuff, alternative tunings, etc. was if I learned to program reasonably well
23:21:28 <Talia`> so I am basically sticking with Mac OS in the hope I get good enough with it to use it as a tool
23:21:28 <Talia`> I believe I have a lot of ideas about how I should implement my equipment and what I should do in regard to custom software, but do not have the programming skills to do any of it yet =)
23:22:36 <Talia`> how so?
23:22:49 <aaronl> i'm a total geek =)
23:25:05 * aaronl is away: shower
23:25:36 <Talia`> well, what's wrong with that?
23:25:45 <Talia`> do geeks tend to "conform"?
23:31:46 <aaronl> nope
23:32:09 <aaronl> but i think it would help me get a girlfriend =)
23:32:27 <aaronl> brb
23:33:24 <Talia`> oh
23:33:31 <Talia`> well, to be honest
23:33:46 <Talia`> I don't think conforming in high school gives you anything in the long-term except self-esteem
23:33:57 <Talia`> actually, girlfriends in high school also seem to suck
23:34:20 <Talia`> they are not about caring about a mutual relationship as they are about "looking good" in front of their friends
23:34:32 <Talia`> there is a real status associated with having a boyfriend or girlfriend in high school
23:34:51 <Talia`> and I think it's unnecessary, since most of them in the end are just interested in sleeping around =)
23:35:05 <Talia`> so, I am not sure you would want to bother, with all honesty =)
23:37:35 <Talia`> you will have the rest of your life to be tied down by women, marriage, etc.
23:37:46 <Talia`> enjoy your freedom, at least until you don't mind being tied down =)
23:44:01 <aaronl> hehe
23:44:08 <aaronl> that's what i'm currently doing
23:44:14 <aaronl> but sometimes i have mixed feelings
23:44:32 <aaronl> i don't think it would hurt to be well rounded
23:44:59 * aaronl is back (gone 00:19:54)
23:45:05 <Talia`> of course, but never feel obligated =)
23:45:09 <Talia`> that's the trick
23:45:23 <Talia`> if you ever feel like you are being forced into something, you probably are, and it probably isn't a good idea =)
23:45:44 <Talia`> I thought the point of being a human was exercising free will
23:46:21 <Talia`> but from my keen observations of how the world works, and as keenly demonstrated in high school....are you very very very well rewarded for giving up that right
23:46:52 <aaronl> i'm not being pressured at all, except by myself
23:47:05 <aaronl> i love being a loner coder
23:47:09 <Talia`> then you will probably be fine =)
23:47:15 <Talia`> as long as you enjoy it in the end
23:47:30 <Talia`> most people can't stand being alone....a kind of perverse extroversion
23:47:40 <aaronl> i understand
23:47:49 <Talia`> I sympathize, but I never could understand =)
23:48:40 <aaronl> i'm pretty antisocial. i don't have many friends IRL. this is not something i'm happy about. i don't care much about it, but some time i'd like to get more socially active. just as a change of scenery, you know?
23:48:57 <Talia`> yes, I do
23:49:25 <Talia`> I have a few good friends....but to survive...I need a very good sense of personal space
23:49:42 <Talia`> so, I often close myself off from the rest of the world for weeks
23:49:46 <Talia`> it drives my friends nuts
23:49:56 <aaronl> i usually wish i could do that
23:50:05 <aaronl> school kinda prevents me
23:50:10 <Talia`> well, I agree
23:50:13 <Talia`> my parents are my issue
23:50:22 <Talia`> I feel as if I am invaded 24/7
23:50:37 <Talia`> it truly feels like a violation everytime they talk to me
23:50:49 <Talia`> I am becoming more and more of a misanthrope, as if I wasn't already one by this time
23:51:13 <aaronl> oh yeah, my parents to the same to me
23:51:22 <aaronl> but it's harder as i'm younger and depend on them more
23:51:44 <Talia`> well, to be honest...I don't want to join the workforce either
23:51:57 <aaronl> yeah, i noticed
23:51:59 <Talia`> I want to be entirely self-employed, or freelance, or neither if I can somehow get away with it
23:52:23 <Talia`> I want to do my own thing, and I am kind of fiercely defensive of that
23:52:46 <Talia`> so, if I can make a living somehow doing something I love doing and making some money with it
23:52:48 <Talia`> then good
23:53:01 <Talia`> because it means I won't have to run off into the woods like a nomad and hide out the rest of my days
23:53:02 <Talia`> :P
23:53:12 <Talia`> out the = out for the
23:53:43 <aaronl> i don't have to worry about that as i'll probably be in school for the next 10 years, but i'm not so picky. i was a summer intern at VA Linux Systems and i loved it. i'm not sure what career i'll go into, but i'm not very interested in business and would rather do research or coding or something which is not necessarily at the top of the ladder
23:53:46 <Talia`> which is a shame, because there are a lot of very enjoyable toys and fun things to learn and play with
23:54:11 <Talia`> no, it isn't....but if you enjoy it...then I don't think that should matter as much
23:54:26 <Talia`> I personally do not emphasize with the "anything that makes money" line I hear all too often
23:54:34 <Talia`> empathize, rather
23:55:01 <aaronl> yes, fortunately i am not greedy
23:55:33 <Talia`> nor am I
23:55:41 <aaronl> i come from a well-off family and probably will never have major monetary problems but at least i'm judging work but how interesting it is, not how much dough it brings in
23:55:53 <aaronl> s/but/by/;
23:55:53 <Talia`> I just want enough money to work with so I can buy new and interesting tools to do ever more cooler stuff [for me, anyway]
23:56:09 <aaronl> yeah, and it's a plus if you can pay for food too =)
23:56:13 <Talia`> yes, it is a good thing
23:56:36 <Talia`> well, I am willing to be a little malnourished to get what I want....but yes =)
23:57:34 <Talia`> with all kidding aside....I will probably have to minimize every other expense I have [beyond my interest(s)] to acquire what I need
23:57:38 <Talia`> at least, until I get somewhere
23:57:45 <aaronl> what's your hope for the music career?
23:58:01 <aaronl> how do you want to make money without a corparation behind you?
23:58:49 <Talia`> well, I'd like to be a professional composer and performer of my own original work. I want to produce and engineer my own work. I also want to be entirely responsible for the sounds and tunings behind my work.
23:59:08 <Talia`> In essence, every controllable facet of the music I want to have a competent handle on
23:59:44 <Talia`> as for the business end, I do want to control advertising and just about anything that has my name on it and is shown publically to other people
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.02.09