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03:26:19 <I440r> problems fare ?
03:26:22 <I440r> :)
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17:38:58 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
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18:37:12 <TheBlueWizard> feeling full eh?
18:40:04 <aaronl_> mmmmhm
18:41:11 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
18:54:24 <Quozl> I440r: isn't isforth going to be just as good as, say, running one of the old DOS forth's under dosemu?  syscalls are the lowest frequency calls that any forth would make, so it would not matter if they went via dosemu's emulation path.
19:25:45 <I440r> qozl say again ?
19:26:12 <I440r> no it will be better
19:26:28 <I440r> when you run under dos emu youi are limited to dos emu
19:26:35 <I440r> a fake c drive etc
19:26:44 <I440r> you cant do LINUX stuff in dos emu
19:27:05 <I440r> isforth will be able to run within the linux environment and do LINUX stuff
19:27:26 <I440r> you could rewrite the init scripts in forth :)
19:28:34 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...or write a http daemon hehe 
19:29:04 <I440r> rite
19:30:31 <Quozl> no, you can do anything in dosemu.  there is a syscall for escaping.
19:32:57 <Quozl> in dosemu you are able to use multiple drives, drives that are portions of the linux filesystem, nfs mount points, ... and you can execute linux code directly ... just that you could get what you wanted faster using dosemu as the starting point, and adding a few minor things to it.
19:33:56 <I440r> so what ur saying is why bother writing isforth at all
19:33:58 <I440r> just use fpc
19:35:59 <Quozl> no, not at all.  integration with linux has great value.  but gforth already has high integration with linux, though it has a slow implementation.  take the best bits of both.
19:36:28 <I440r> erm gforth is a pile of shit
19:36:31 <TheBlueWizard> dosemu is just one huge fat thunk sitting between Forth code (running under fpc) and Linux...so just cut dosemu out by writing up isforth stuff :)
19:36:52 <I440r> i wont give any existing "linux" forth the time of day
19:37:06 <aaronl_> hey I440r
19:37:07 <I440r> not a single one is better than "worthless"
19:37:09 <aaronl_> how's it going?
19:37:21 <I440r> not too good hehe
19:37:25 <I440r> i got a bad cold:)
19:37:27 <aaronl_> :)
19:37:28 <aaronl_> :(
19:37:32 <I440r> but i htink im kicking it now
19:38:01 <TheBlueWizard> with your martial arts skill? ;)
19:38:10 <I440r> any forth written in a fucked up language like c is an abomination
19:38:15 <I440r> yea tbw, thats it :)
19:39:09 <TheBlueWizard> np :)
19:39:39 <I440r> qozl i hope ur not the guy that wrote gforth hehe
19:39:52 <Quozl> I440r: would have been wiser to check first, eh?
19:40:05 <I440r> heh
19:40:13 <I440r> prolly
19:40:23 <I440r> but im automatically prejudiced agains any forth written in c
19:40:33 <I440r> i consider c to be the most over rated language there is
19:40:34 <Quozl> I440r: no, i've written a forth for z80 and a forth for vax architectures.  i have no wish to write one for the brain damaged pathetic crippled x86 architecture.
19:40:41 <I440r> VB is better, it doesnt even pretend to be good
19:40:59 <I440r> ever done any work with 8051 ?
19:41:11 <Quozl> yes, though not much.  i'm on pics now.
19:41:25 <TheBlueWizard> Quozl: true...x86 is drain-bamaged....but once written, you seldom need to see x86 code again...
19:41:37 <I440r> i was writing an 8051 forth but at the time i didnt have any 8051 hardware so coulsnt test
19:41:47 <I440r> so i am also writing an 8051 simulator :)
19:41:50 <Quozl> TheBlueWizard: sorry, i disagree ... the only code i don't need to see again is code that i won't be maintaining.
19:42:17 <Quozl> i don't recall writing anything with the intention of never maintaining it.
19:42:28 <TheBlueWizard> Quozl: ah...I was talking of app pgmming angle using Forth
19:42:45 <I440r> qozl x86 IS brain damaged, segmentaed memory has to be one of the worst ideas ive ever ehared of
19:42:46 <I440r> erm
19:42:47 <I440r> wait
19:42:55 <I440r> i know of an even worse one
19:42:58 <I440r> protected mode
19:43:06 <I440r> a fucked up fix for a fucked up design mistake
19:43:10 <Quozl> yes, so why write another x86 forth when you could use an advanced processor?
19:43:23 <I440r> because x86 is the defacto standard
19:43:42 <Quozl> oh, and why is being a defacto standard relevant?
19:44:16 <I440r> because more people run x86 than all the rest put together
19:44:21 <TheBlueWizard> yup
19:44:31 <Quozl> and that helps because it lowers the price of hardware, right?
19:44:42 <I440r> no
19:45:03 <TheBlueWizard> yeah...that's one of the unfortunate side effect of money-based capitalism
19:45:03 <I440r> it means taht once isforht is finished it has a higher potential of being used/recognised
19:45:16 <Quozl> ah, recognition is what you seek?
19:45:17 <I440r> actually rite now i should say 
19:45:24 <I440r> "IF" it is finished
19:45:27 <I440r> of corse :)
19:45:43 <I440r> i want to be phanmus like tom zimmer :)
19:45:43 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
19:45:57 <TheBlueWizard> s/phanmus/famous/
19:46:18 <I440r> except i dont want to be a bad forth coder like tom zimmer
19:47:23 <TheBlueWizard> so you gonna outdo Tom Zimmer hehe :)
19:47:33 <I440r> yes :P
19:48:10 <I440r> i just want a decent forth for linux is all
19:48:37 <I440r> and i know alot of linux users who feel the same way i do about gforht and the others of its ilk
19:48:46 <Quozl> well, i think you are inconsistent, on the one hand you don't want to use pre-existing software layers such as c libraries, but yet you will use the linux kernel, which is mostly in c, and yet your main reason for choosing x86 is recognition.  it seems to be that you have a considerable challenge as a result.
19:49:21 <TheBlueWizard> I have some experience coding up Forth in x86...x86 is surprisingly really lousy architecture for implementing Forth in...about the only other CPU that sucks with respect to Forth implementation IMHO and IM experience is 6502
19:49:28 <I440r> qozl my MAIN reason for chosing x86 is because thats what every machine in this house and 99.999999999999999999999% of all other houses run
19:49:48 <I440r> tbw 6502 is fscking BRILLIANT for forth
19:50:08 <Quozl> oh, so you are only interested in consumer market?  not the professional market?
19:50:15 <I440r> both
19:50:21 <Quozl> uhuh.
19:50:30 <I440r> but the professional market bases ITS requirements on the consumer market
19:50:31 <I440r> does it not
19:50:49 <Quozl> not really, we base our IT requirements on our own views of price vs performance.
19:51:05 <I440r> you are talking embedded now
19:52:03 <Quozl> no, not embedded market, i mean desktop market for office automation ... they don't buy consumer stuff, like multimedia pcs with side mounted speakers and nicely carved box in six different colours; they buy processor and memory and ease of maintenance.
19:52:23 <I440r> ms doesnt care how much it costs to develop things nor how fast they run or in how much memory/disk
19:52:33 <I440r> all they care about is getting it out the door TODAY
19:53:11 <I440r> they buy machines that run windows
19:53:15 <I440r> because thats what everyone knows
19:53:21 <Quozl> the story of the x86 as i understand it, is that it was an industrial microcontroller, a bloated/advanced design at the time, and that intel's prices on their better designed cores were too high, for million lot units, and so ibm chose the cheaper product and decided to work around the cost by software.
19:54:02 <I440r> ive used the 386ex :)
19:54:34 <I440r> Quozl: u ever used a86/d86 by eric isaacson ?
19:55:03 <I440r> he was on the design team for the x86 processor and wishes he had opened his mouth and argued against segmentation at the time
19:55:09 <I440r> he has been kickinbg himself ever since
19:55:22 <Quozl> i skipped the whole technology ... my steps went from the trs-80 model 1 through to 4p, then to vax, then a couple of years ago i bought a pc to run linux.  i've never used the legacy microsoft windows operating system for more than five minutes when visiting someone.
19:55:30 <I440r> it was designed as a processor, noit a controler
19:55:35 <I440r> intel controlers are second to none
19:55:40 <I440r> their processors suck tho
19:55:46 <I440r> motorola is vice versa
19:55:57 <Quozl> yes, 68000 architecture is nice.
19:56:06 <I440r> hc11 is sucky
19:56:13 <I440r> 8051 rox
19:56:15 <I440r> x86 sucks
19:56:20 <Quozl> hc11 is cut down.
19:56:27 <Quozl> so you've not tried pic?
19:56:35 <I440r> not yet but ive heared lots about it
19:56:45 <Quozl> fun little chips.
19:56:51 <I440r> actually, i want to write a forth for the TI msp430 family :)
19:57:01 <I440r> orthagonal architecture sounds cool!
19:57:35 <Quozl> well, i can't point you to my web page on my pic work because you'll see c mentioned in passing.  ;-)
19:57:59 <I440r> i code c :P
19:58:05 <I440r> i jsut think c is overrated
19:58:16 <I440r> and ENCOURAGES extreeeeemly poor coding practices
19:58:18 <I440r> its also crippled
19:58:30 <I440r> any language that doesnt allow access to the carry flag is fucked up :P
20:00:05 <Quozl> ah, the hoops you have to go through with the pic carry flag.  it is set for overflows and reset for underflows.
20:00:34 <I440r> heeh
20:00:43 <TheBlueWizard> back
20:01:21 <I440r> wb tbw
20:01:34 <I440r> Quozl: whereu located ?
20:01:36 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: um....by "fscking BRILLIANT" re: 6502 for Forth I assume you are saying it in sarcastic tone, right?
20:01:47 <I440r> nope
20:02:03 <I440r> the fact that its 8 bit and only has a x and y are not relavant
20:02:15 <I440r> 6502 makes a good forth
20:02:34 <TheBlueWizard> I thought otherwise....oh well! hehe
20:02:37 <I440r> heh
20:02:53 <Quozl> I440r: outback australia.
20:02:55 <I440r> i never liked the fig forths for it tho
20:02:58 <I440r> COOL
20:03:14 <I440r> me and a friend of mine were going to go on a gold prospecting holiday in oz
20:03:23 <I440r> we baught top of the line metal detetores
20:03:42 <I440r> we were going to buy a land rover or something when we got there and jsut head out itnot the outback :)
20:03:43 <Quozl> I440r: http://quozl.netrek.org/tad/ shows some of my pic work ... on which i usually use forth as a design language and then implement in assembler.
20:03:52 <I440r> i dont think we cared weather we got any gold or not heh
20:03:54 <Quozl> I440r: many have died that way.
20:04:01 <TheBlueWizard> all implementation of Forth I've seen for 6502 uses zero pages for parameter stack, and that really use up precious zero page space...I often hit into the wall with this
20:04:06 <I440r> we wernt going to be STUPID about it
20:04:39 <Quozl> I440r: lots of people said they weren't going to be stupid, and yet they didn't ask the locals at all.  it sucks to have to pick up their smelly remains and send them back in a body bag.
20:05:16 <I440r> yea
20:05:31 <I440r> actually tho we only got as far as raising the money for the detectors :P
20:05:34 <Quozl> we had 400 people die in one state due to unseasonally hot weather in one event a few years ago.
20:05:37 <I440r> we worked a whole year just to get those ":)
20:05:56 <I440r> we wernt just going to up and ship out hehe
20:06:08 <Quozl> and considering we only have 15 million people in the country, that's a lot.
20:06:18 <I440r> i worked in the usaf in california, on the flightline...
20:06:26 <I440r> it got to 120 in the shade there...
20:06:32 <I440r> every 2 minutes someone would go back in for water
20:06:39 <I440r> i could last all day without...
20:06:46 <I440r> just keep ur mouth SHUT
20:07:11 <I440r> u a hardware guy dood ?
20:07:32 * Quozl  
20:07:53 <I440r> me and hardware are like this....
20:08:03 <I440r> oh..what does this do... GADZTTTS... oopts
20:08:30 <Quozl> (can i talk yet?)
20:08:50 <I440r> why wouldnt u be able to ?
20:08:55 <I440r> u lost me
20:09:05 <Quozl> "just keep ur mouth SHUT"
20:09:17 --- topic: set to 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforthi code cno' by I440r
20:09:19 <I440r> not you :)
20:09:21 <I440r> ME
20:09:24 <I440r> in the sun
20:09:26 <I440r> thats the secret
20:09:31 <I440r> dont talk unless you need to
20:09:34 <Quozl> ah, being on 11 channels on this server and 8 on a company server, it's easy to lose context.
20:10:00 <I440r> im on 4 different irc nets in a total of....
20:10:06 <I440r> 10 channels
20:10:12 <I440r> one of those servers is my own :P
20:10:17 <I440r> ur company runs an ircd ?
20:10:20 <aaronl_> how's your ircnet going?
20:10:26 <Quozl> i manage the server backbone in the company.
20:10:44 <I440r> cool :)
20:10:53 <Quozl> we're running a nice old version of ircd.
20:11:03 <Quozl> it would take months to organise an upgrade.
20:11:35 <I440r> well if isforth is ever finished im going to rewrite ircd in forth
20:11:41 <aaronl_> heh
20:11:44 <I440r> every single ircd in existance is based on the original code
20:11:51 <Quozl> could you rewrite netrek in forth while you are at it?
20:11:54 <TheBlueWizard> really?
20:11:56 <I440r> more patchy that apache web server
20:11:58 <I440r> yes
20:12:04 <I440r> they all have origins with ircu
20:12:22 <I440r> ircd has some of the most fucked up c code ive ever seen
20:12:33 <I440r> talk about "write only" code
20:12:58 <I440r> whats netrek ?
20:13:31 * TheBlueWizard never have seen ircd code hehe
20:13:46 <I440r> tbw dont go look at it... it will rot your brain
20:13:47 <I440r> i know
20:13:50 <I440r> i looked :P
20:13:53 <aaronl_> heeh
20:14:04 <aaronl_> want some nice c code?
20:14:09 <TheBlueWizard> netrek is a popular Star Trek like game...played over the network
20:14:14 <I440r> aha
20:14:24 <aaronl_> float o=0.075,h=1.5,T,r,O,l,I;int _,L=80,s=3200;main(){for(;s%L||(h-=o,T= -2),s
20:14:24 <aaronl_> ;4 -(r=O*O)<(l=I*I)|++_==L&&write(1,(--s%L?_<L?--_%6:6:7)+"123456 \n",1)&&(O=I=
20:14:24 <aaronl_> l=_=r=0,T+=o/2))O=I*2*O+h,I=l+T-r;}
20:14:44 <TheBlueWizard> I440r: I wanna to see my brain a-rottin'! I'll look at it RSN!  ha ha ha
20:14:46 <TheBlueWizard> ;)
20:15:01 <I440r> rsn ?
20:15:09 <TheBlueWizard> real soon now
20:15:21 <I440r> aha
20:15:22 <I440r> heh
20:15:27 <I440r> aaronl_: wtf was that :P
20:15:34 <Quozl> I440r: netrek is http://www.netrek.org/ ... multiplayer team battle simulation.
20:15:45 <aaronl_> I440r: compile it and see
20:15:59 <I440r> aaronl_: compile it wioth WHAT!!!!
20:16:00 <I440r> heh
20:16:07 <aaronl_> gcc
20:16:18 <aaronl_> i'm beginning to love brainfuck
20:16:31 <aaronl_>  /* Multiply 12 by 15 */
20:16:31 <aaronl_> ++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<
20:16:31 <aaronl_> >[->>+<<]<[->>>[-<<+>>>+<]>[-<+>]<<<[->+<]<]>>.
20:16:46 --- join: codetoad (codetoad@adsl-216-103-104-147.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) joined #forth
20:17:12 <codetoad> Hello. I am a professional brainf**k coder.
20:17:21 --- mode: aaronl_ set mode: +o codetoad
20:17:23 <I440r> :)
20:17:30 <codetoad> >+++++++[<+++++++++++>-]<.>>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]++[<++>-]<+.>>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<-.>>++++++++++[<+++++++++++>-]++[<++>-]<.>>+++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+.>>++++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]++[<-->-]<-.>>+++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+.>>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]+[<++>-]<.>>+++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]+++[<++>-]<.>>++++[<++++++++>-1]<.>>++++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]++[<-->-]<-.>>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++++++[<++>-]<+.>>+++++++
20:18:08 * TheBlueWizard 's brain got fscked!
20:18:14 <TheBlueWizard> why, thank you!
20:18:19 * TheBlueWizard grins
20:18:37 <aaronl_> it's actually quite simple
20:19:06 <codetoad> So, who uses forth?
20:19:21 <I440r> i do
20:19:22 <I440r> :P
20:19:24 <I440r> nasa does
20:19:27 <codetoad> The company I work for uses bf every day
20:19:31 <I440r> industrial light and magic uses it
20:19:36 <I440r> bf ?
20:19:45 <I440r> oh
20:19:45 <codetoad> we hire all our programmers as full time bf coders
20:19:47 <I440r> brain fuck :P
20:19:48 <aaronl_> FORTH? IF HONK! THEN
20:20:09 <TheBlueWizard> codetoad: you must be joking....
20:20:16 <codetoad> No...
20:20:25 <Quozl> you sure you aren't confusing them with marketing people?
20:20:28 <codetoad> It gives a level of computer access not even possible with assembly
20:20:42 <aaronl_> ...but possible with c
20:20:48 <codetoad> It's just like structured binary
20:21:19 <codetoad> The elegance possible with bf just can't be beat, not for what it does
20:21:31 <aaronl_> you're learning fast :)
20:21:49 <TheBlueWizard> well, I need to go to bed now...bye all!
20:21:54 <codetoad> toodles
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20:22:52 <codetoad> I440r: You use DOS?
20:23:03 <I440r> yes
20:23:14 <I440r> i still code 100% pure asm for dos
20:23:18 <aaronl_> he codes for it too :)
20:23:19 <aaronl_> hehe
20:23:20 <I440r> using my registered a86/d86
20:23:31 <codetoad> I hear bf isn't good on DOS. It prefers a fully graphical environment
20:23:44 <aaronl_> i dont think codetoad even has an i386
20:23:52 <codetoad> :(
20:24:02 <aaronl_> feel lucky
20:24:05 <aaronl_> i386 is awful
20:24:19 <codetoad> I want to learn ppc asm
20:24:27 <codetoad> but I have no idea where to start
20:24:35 <I440r> start by getting an ppc :P
20:24:38 <codetoad> It's not as if anyone publishes a book on it
20:24:45 <codetoad> I have 4 of them, I440r
20:24:52 <I440r> there u go then :)
20:25:01 <aaronl_> i need to get an m68k
20:25:05 <aaronl_> well
20:25:08 <codetoad> I've got one here, aaronl
20:25:09 <aaronl_> i have one sitting in the corner
20:25:12 <aaronl_> but it runs a broken linux
20:25:14 <Quozl> i want a life
20:25:22 <I440r> me 2
20:25:24 <aaronl_> codetoad: i have a book on PPC asm btw
20:25:27 <I440r> i want a gf :P
20:25:30 <codetoad> seriously?
20:25:32 <aaronl_> me 2
20:25:37 <codetoad> dude, lemme come over tomorrow
20:25:40 <aaronl_> codetoad: yeah, i almost learned it
20:25:43 <aaronl_> codetoad: school?
20:25:44 <codetoad> we can go to stanford and get that forth book you want
20:25:50 <codetoad> what time do you get off?
20:25:53 <aaronl_> codetoad: remeber which one it was?
20:26:02 <aaronl_> i get home at leik 4pm
20:26:13 <codetoad> The stanford book store, they had a few big ugly FORTH books
20:26:18 <aaronl_> Thinking FORTH rules
20:26:22 <codetoad> they had like 5 LISP books
20:26:27 <aaronl_> ooh
20:26:29 <aaronl_> let me at 'em!
20:26:34 <codetoad> aaronl_: come with me there tomorrow :(
20:26:57 <aaronl_> codetoad: want a mint condition quadra 610? i got one. running linux.
20:27:07 <aaronl_> Hey, that would make a good project for tonight: reinstalling debian on it
20:27:08 <codetoad> Dude, I have a 610
20:27:11 <aaronl_> hmm
20:27:23 <codetoad> it's spraypainted silver! :)
20:27:29 <Quozl> all my coding practice is done from strategies i learned in thinking forth.
20:27:45 <codetoad> What's so good about forth?
20:27:48 <aaronl_> should i use the quadra as a server?
20:27:51 <codetoad> Yeha
20:27:53 <codetoad> it's my router
20:27:54 <I440r> leo brodie now says he thinks oop is cool :P
20:27:55 <I440r> bleh
20:28:06 <aaronl_> running?
20:28:07 <codetoad> OOP is cool
20:28:12 <aaronl_> watch me compile a kernel :)))
20:28:13 <I440r> u suck :P
20:28:15 <Quozl> oops are even cooler.
20:28:56 <I440r> leo brodie says "thinking forth" was based on fucked up coding ideas
20:29:00 <codetoad> But I spend most of my time working with oBF, an object model extension of BF..We've added .NET and COM support, so we're all set.
20:29:14 <codetoad> So people can use oBF objects in C#, Java, or C++ code
20:29:18 <codetoad> or VB
20:30:27 <aaronl_> who is leo brodie?
20:30:38 <I440r> he wrote starting forht and thinking forth
20:30:42 <aaronl_> eek
20:30:44 <I440r> duh
20:30:53 * aaronl_ fires up the quadra
20:31:08 <codetoad> Basically, oBF is just BF, but the * symbol is used for declaring classes(along with the []s, etc)
20:31:14 <aaronl_> I am overflowing in boxes
20:31:22 <aaronl_> I have this quadra, and a spare 500mhz celeron
20:31:25 <aaronl_> WHAT SHOULD I DO WITH THEM?
20:31:33 <codetoad> I'll take the Celeron
20:32:18 <codetoad> aaronl_: can you do anything tomorrow?
20:32:19 <Quozl> i'm giving away 486/66 and p75 systems to outback farmers.  a 486/100 sells second hand in this area for $USD330 or so, complete.
20:33:10 <aaronl_> dmn
20:35:37 <aaronl_> booting the mighty quadra....
20:36:34 <aaronl_> these 68k's are so much more reliable than any intel shit
20:36:37 <aaronl_> i want an old sun
20:37:29 <aaronl_> you know what i just realized?
20:37:36 <aaronl_> I cna run supertetris on this and the sound will work!1
20:37:40 <aaronl_> classic games, baby
20:38:23 <aaronl_> FUCK
20:39:41 <aaronl_> downloading new 68k stuff...
20:40:04 <I440r> mem 2 mem move rox!!!!
20:40:05 <I440r> hehe
20:40:09 <I440r> 8051 has that :)
20:40:12 <aaronl_> ?
20:40:24 <I440r> move variable1,variable2
20:40:34 <aaronl_> i'm reinstalling linux on my 68LC040
20:40:36 <aaronl_> oh, yeah that rules
20:40:37 <I440r> move.w or movel.l :)
20:40:43 <Quozl> yeah, but it is multiple processor cycles, which sucks.
20:40:59 <I440r> actually, x86 has that too
20:41:17 <I440r> movsb/w/d
20:41:19 <I440r> OR
20:41:25 <I440r> pop variable
20:41:29 <I440r> tahts a mem to mem move
20:41:44 <Quozl> pic have a fixed cycle width per instruction, decode, read, write.  makes for a fast chip.
20:42:13 <aaronl_> fuck mem-to-mem moves. zero-copy forever!
20:42:13 <I440r> pic is a very cut down ontroler tho...
20:43:10 <Quozl> chip caches are for bad coders.
20:45:05 <aaronl_> yeah
20:55:38 --- quit: codetoad ([x]chat)
21:04:37 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: No route to host)
21:07:41 --- join: mark4 (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth
21:07:46 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r
21:07:54 <I440r> linux hozed itself
21:08:07 <I440r> i think i musta executed a "HALT" instruction somewhere :P
21:55:52 --- part: Quozl left #forth
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/01.01.08