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11:00:58 <ult> ugh
11:01:40 <ult> there is so much hurt
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11:58:32 --- names: list (clog Fare I440r edrx ree ult)
11:58:32 --- names: EOL
11:58:33 <ult> well
11:58:38 <ult> lisp and forth are both functional languages
11:58:42 <ult> which means they share a shitload in common
11:58:57 <ree> I don't like functional languages for some reason
11:59:03 <ult> You don't? Fuck off then :)
11:59:08 <ree> they scale very well 
11:59:15 <ult> functional languages do everything very well
11:59:17 <ree> but they aren't the nicest implementation =)
11:59:20 <ult> the problem with them is they are not for the impatient
11:59:37 <ult> yes, you will finish your project faster with a functional language
11:59:52 <ult> but it won't seem like it -- it's just, when you write something with a functional language, there is no big debug stage at the end like there is with C
11:59:55 <edrx> I have learned Haskell but I just can't think in the right way for it, and I don't linke not being able to understand how things are going to be optimized
12:00:35 <edrx> about scaling well, someone once said that Tcl isn't good for large projects
12:00:46 <ree> it's sort of the same reasoning behind OOP and OO
12:00:56 <ree> you don't have to code a OO system using OOP
12:01:11 <edrx> and the answer was "if you code it right the code will be small"
12:01:28 <ult> well, yes
12:01:33 <ult> one thing about functional languages
12:01:38 <ult> you usually write reusable code
12:01:41 <ult> one reason CL is so big
12:01:47 <ult> every piece of reusable code imaginable has been written 
12:02:02 <ult> It's been said that every major C application re-implements at least half of Common Lisp
12:03:23 <edrx> I would like to use Forth as my main language but be able to call functions from several other languages
12:03:48 <ree> I've been looking at forth for better ideas on how to code in asm
12:03:57 <edrx> but it seems that the only project like that that became reasonably functional was Minotaur
12:04:13 <edrx> ree: that's a very good reason :)
12:04:27 <ree> I don't like the traditional programming model 
12:04:30 <ree> in asm
12:04:45 <ree> every example and everything I've learned has been in ways similar to other languages
12:05:25 <edrx> not to mention that x86 asm is *ugly*
12:05:37 <ree> heh, to each their own =)
12:06:07 <ree> asm has one of the simplest syntaxes of any language
12:06:10 <edrx> I don't have enough neurones to learn 80x86 asm for x>2...
12:06:22 <edrx> ree: except for Forth, of course!
12:06:31 <ree> heh, even simpler
12:07:07 <ree> in x86 you have three columns, two columns of which indicate the operands
12:07:19 <ree> then you have a few assembler specific directives
12:07:23 <edrx> only if you're considering machine language instead of asm, but then you can consider Forth bytecodes, which are much much simpler than asm
12:07:30 <ree> and all you have to do is learn the mneumonics
12:08:03 <ree> it's more straight forward though
12:08:36 <edrx> sorry but I have to go now, I was just downloading something, and the phone company charges high for connections this time of the day where I live
12:08:45 <ree> you look at 'mov ax, 4' once you learn the backwards direction of intel asm and what a register is
12:08:50 <edrx> yes
12:08:57 <ree> you already know
12:09:00 <ree> ahh, ok edrx
12:09:02 <ree> nice meeting you =)
12:09:11 <edrx> just a curiosity... have you tried looking at Color Forth?
12:09:21 <ree> not yet, but I read about it on jeff fox's site
12:09:32 <ree> I'm starting a organization
12:09:42 <ree> I'll be coding a address based system in asm
12:09:43 <edrx> I found it extremely interesting (and the link I was going to give you was execlty jfox's...)
12:09:50 <edrx> organization?
12:09:53 <ree> yeah, thanks
12:10:05 <ree> yeah, dist, development in science & technology
12:10:22 <edrx> details?
12:10:40 <ree> it'll deal with using different technologies to speed research and development
12:10:50 <ree> I'll be starting with programming a input based database system
12:11:23 <edrx> hm... maybe I have somethign that may interest you
12:11:38 <edrx> http://angg.twu.net/eev-manifesto.html
12:12:11 <ree> it'll deal with promoting individualism
12:12:17 <edrx> the installation instructions may be a bit wrong now, but I'm working hard on other parts of the idea
12:12:27 <ree> and offer new ways of developing projects through interface with the dist system
12:12:48 <edrx> what is an "input based db system"?
12:13:07 <ree> well, basically a interface independant data driven model
12:13:22 <ree> I'm implementing it using simple structures and asm calls 
12:13:45 <ree> it'll dynamically create large structures out of smaller, and link back and forth
12:14:00 <edrx> I'd like to take a look at it when you have some public material. Sounds very interesting
12:14:06 <ree> making massive maps of whatever you input into it 
12:14:20 <ree> yeah, definitely
12:14:30 <ree> the sites are www.dist.net and www.dist.org
12:14:30 <edrx> it will create the new structures lazily?
12:14:35 <ree> they'll be interfaced with the dist system as well
12:14:38 <ree> so there is nothing up there right now
12:14:47 <ree> it'll create them out of demand
12:14:54 <ree> it's ran on top of a unix system
12:15:23 <ree> the idea is to create a system that can assimilate new information and construct whatever we want it to 
12:15:48 <ree> but I've tried to make it as fundamental as possible
12:15:53 <edrx> a smarter wiki?
12:16:01 <ree> heh, wiki?
12:17:04 <edrx> cgi-based programs that let anyone edit any page... let me find some links...
12:17:09 <ree> ohh
12:17:12 <ree> no, I know about it
12:17:43 <ree> well, the web interface will be somewhat like that
12:17:48 <ree> people create an account
12:18:04 <ree> then they model their own system using their account
12:18:15 <ree> it'll have a somewhat natural language like command structure
12:18:20 <ree> that is context sensitive
12:18:42 <ree> this is just the web interface, I hope to extend it a lot more with specialized software
12:18:46 <ree> and eventually hardware
12:18:52 <edrx> sounds like a BIG project
12:19:02 <ree> yeah
12:19:22 <ree> lifelong one
12:19:28 <edrx> ah.
12:19:34 <ree> I don't really like present day technologies
12:19:42 <edrx> me either
12:19:45 <ree> like protocols and programming languages/operating systems
12:20:03 <edrx> and the dychotomy between code and docs
12:20:06 <ree> I'd rather use computers to make it easier to express all of our creativity in unique ways
12:20:12 <ree> yeah
12:20:19 <ree> all of the seperation
12:21:07 <ree> hah, I've been to this page before
12:21:17 <ree> I didn't read the eev manifesto the last time though
12:21:35 <ree> heh, I even have your edrx forth links bookmarked
12:21:41 <edrx> wow!
12:22:13 <edrx> do you have other pages besides dist?
12:22:33 <ree> heh, I've redone design after design
12:22:38 <ree> and docs for different projects
12:22:55 <ree> so basically wysiwyg 
12:23:13 <edrx> I just found (two days ago) a satisfactory solution for turning html into templates
12:23:30 <ree> ahh
12:23:31 <edrx> wysiwyg = txt?
12:23:38 <ree> what you see is what you get
12:23:42 <ree> all that I have up
12:23:52 <edrx> I know the acronym
12:23:52 <ree> minus a few documents I've been randomally typing words into
12:24:02 <edrx> like me... :)
12:24:27 <ree> hehe
12:25:06 <ree> I finally came to the conclusion that it is best if I interface the actual web sites to the system itself
12:25:16 <ree> and just use the simplest design possible
12:25:28 <ree> since the system itself will have to have an understand of all of the abstraction I use
12:25:33 <ree> understanding
12:27:12 <edrx> yes, I agree, but you need a design (for the programs) that is very simple and clean to do that, and people like Chuck Moore often spend years to polish very small chunks of code 
12:27:27 <ree> which imo is necessary
12:27:46 <ree> unfortunately we don't have all the time in the world =)
12:28:22 <edrx> I would really like to see how you will code your ideas, I hope you can develop a nice way to expose your code to passing visitors that also don't have all the time in the world :)
12:28:36 <ree> yeah =)
12:30:33 <edrx> (sorry for putting half of the verbs in the wrong tenses, English is not my native language)
12:30:33 <edrx> what editor do you use?
12:30:33 <ree> no problem, I haven't studied english well enough yet
12:30:33 <ree> vi
12:30:33 <edrx> :(
12:30:33 <edrx> do you use some of the ways to extend vi?
12:30:33 <ree> nope
12:30:33 <ree> I use basic nvi on bsd
12:30:33 <edrx> like programming extensions in Tcl or Python? Or know a link to them?
12:30:33 <ree> and elvis on linux
12:30:48 <edrx> I need to implement my hyperlinks on vi to save the other half of the world
12:30:59 <edrx> and I don't know vi
12:31:00 <ree> sorry, can't help there
12:31:04 <edrx> :)
12:31:04 <ree> I just really like vi
12:31:35 <ree> it sort of works with the way I type
12:31:40 <ree> one letter at a time =)
12:31:48 <edrx> hope you won't stop reading the eev manifesto in the middle just because it is about the Other Editor...
12:31:57 <ree> heh
12:32:05 <ree> I noticed the meta characters 
12:32:25 <edrx> and?
12:32:41 <ree> I just don't think that's the most efficient manner 
12:33:06 <ree> if you change vi's escape key to ctrl that is
12:33:25 <ree> the vi's idea of input modes is smart
12:33:54 <edrx> it may not be that efficient, but the main point is that you can type a command after a lisp expression in your text the lisp expr gets executed, and in this way you can easily implement all sorts or hyperlinks, invocations of debuggers, etc
12:34:07 <ree> ahh
12:34:14 <edrx> I know that I have to type more in Emacs than viers do
12:34:21 <ree> is that the unix way though
12:34:36 <ree> emacs is strikingly non-unix like
12:34:39 <edrx> but I don't care because on the other hand I can use lisp
12:34:45 <ree> it implements all of the functionality itself
12:35:03 <ree> where as the unix environment combines all of the tools it has 
12:35:04 <edrx> it is non-unix like because it is interactive :)
12:35:27 <ree> thats why I think the X desktop environments don't work so well
12:35:33 <ree> they are huge and buggy
12:35:43 <edrx> agree - I don't use much X
12:35:45 <ree> they don't combine a small set of functionality known to work
12:35:52 <ree> I do, but I use pwm 
12:35:56 <edrx> pwm?
12:36:00 <ree> very small window manager
12:36:07 <ree> you can do everything from the keyboard 
12:36:22 <edrx> sounds good
12:36:27 <ree> yeah, it's really nice
12:36:30 <ree> only 100kb
12:36:32 <ree> smaller than twm
12:36:43 <ree> and supports dualhead setups 
12:36:55 <ree> plus afterstep docks
12:37:49 <edrx> if it is so small it should be easy to hack and to extend :)
12:37:57 <ree> yeah
12:38:01 <ree> I was thinking of doing that
12:38:05 <ree> but I need to focus on dist heh
12:38:21 <ree> I'd like to change it to look like the stickies program on macos
12:38:27 <ree> and include some other macos stuff
12:38:32 <ree> along with some OS/2 PM stuff
12:38:45 <ree> I think the title bar at the top of the screen is a really good idea
12:39:50 <ree> have you tried emac's vi mode?
12:40:01 <ree> I've tried to use emacs a few times in the past few years
12:40:09 <ree> always ended up uninstalling it promptly after heh
12:40:15 <edrx> maybe - I don't have enough experience to say, I have been using fvwm for years
12:40:35 <edrx> I though about using emacs' vi mode to learn vi
12:40:39 <ree> yeah, it only takes a few minutes to learn the meta commands under pwm
12:40:47 <ree> pwm also implements framed windows
12:40:57 <ree> which is a great idea
12:41:06 <ree> you can stick a couple shaded framed windows at the top
12:41:08 <edrx> I got a link to it via freshmeat and bookmarked it
12:41:36 <ree> I implemented a shell script that allows you to do themes
12:41:39 <ree> with it
12:42:11 <ree> so what do you do with unix?
12:42:16 <edrx> my video card is so crappy that the soundcard gives noise when there's too much happening on a graphic screen
12:42:19 <ree> trying to find ways to make it easier to use?
12:42:39 <ree> heh, sounds like it isn't shielded properly
12:42:47 <edrx> I started using Unix to put my ideas in practise
12:42:49 <ree> you might try moving it over a few slots 
12:43:35 <edrx> but the sound output also get slower, so the only thing that will be reduced by that is the volume of the noise
12:44:40 <edrx> but returning to the prev question, when I started to use computers computers were machines that could be programmed to do anything you wanted
12:45:14 <ree> hehe, simply programmed
12:45:28 <edrx> but maybe the only reason why they don't keep up to this promise is beacuse thae progr languages aren't good enough yet
12:46:14 <edrx> so I got fascinated by programming languages and tried to change them to make them be as expressive as I wanted
12:46:18 <ree> maybe you should implement an emacs like program using eev.el
12:46:27 <edrx> ?
12:46:27 <ree> and just shell and basic unix commands
12:46:54 <edrx> I need more explanations... :)
12:47:11 <edrx> didn't get your idea
12:47:15 <ree> well, build an environment that can do anything, using itself, without having to extend it 
12:47:33 <ree> I don't really think programming is the right way to go
12:48:07 <edrx> I think that programming is extremelly natural, at least if it is done in a language in which you're very fluent
12:48:24 <ree> well, I think learning is natural
12:48:31 <ree> using the senses you have
12:48:46 <ree> the only reason we program computers the way we do is because they are limited 
12:49:14 <edrx> they will always be limited, as we are limited
12:50:02 <ree> yep
12:50:14 <ree> but I don't think we will always be limited
12:50:17 <ree> nor will they
12:50:27 <ree> our imagination is proof of that
12:50:41 <ree> once we create an abstraction that can sustain our imagination within a machine
12:50:51 <ree> they will no longer be limited 
12:52:36 <ree> hehe
12:52:42 <ree> Editors 101 - The VI Menace
12:54:30 <edrx> yes, but there's always some effot involved in making your ideas become reality
12:57:44 <edrx> time to go... bye, see ya!
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15:58:50 <tcn> brb.. reboot
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18:22:58 <I440r> hi ppl
18:23:03 <ree> hey i440r
18:23:27 <Talia`> hello i440 =)
18:26:12 <I440r> hi :)
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18:26:35 <I440r> brb
18:26:38 <Talia`> =)
18:26:39 <I440r> gotta get coffee :)
18:26:59 <ree> now we can all be BOFH =)
18:29:49 <I440r> :)
18:29:54 <I440r> bofh is phun :)
18:38:45 <I440r> so how was everyones xmas ?
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18:42:00 <Talia`> quite nice thanks
18:42:04 <Talia`> very quiet =)
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18:42:09 <Talia`> how about yours, i440?
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18:48:26 <I440r> wb :)
18:48:33 <I440r> nasty netsplit :)
18:48:40 <ree> yep
18:48:43 <Talia`> indeed =)
18:48:46 <I440r> shouldnt happen here
18:48:47 <I440r> grrr
18:48:53 <I440r> thats what happens on UNDERNET
18:48:54 <I440r> grrr
18:48:55 <I440r> heh
18:49:02 <Talia`> i4: my x-mas was fine, thank you....rather uneventful...how about yours?
18:49:05 <Talia`> hah, or EFnet
18:49:13 <I440r> was cool
18:49:18 <Talia`> excellent
18:49:21 <I440r> i baught my kid sisters a new puter :)
18:49:26 <Talia`> hah, what kind?
18:49:30 <Talia`> an 8051?
18:49:31 <Talia`> :D
18:49:37 <I440r> they asked me what i wanted so i told em a bbk cd and a book i wanted hehe
18:49:43 <I440r> i got them an hp
18:49:45 <I440r> they got
18:49:46 <Talia`> cool =)
18:49:46 <I440r> the hp
18:49:50 <I440r> a colour printer
18:49:51 <I440r> cdrw
18:49:56 <I440r> a 14 inc monitor
18:50:04 <I440r> 700 mhz p3
18:50:06 <Talia`> cute...probably nicer than mine =)
18:50:16 <I440r> got it at walmart of all places
18:50:19 <I440r> TREALY nice deal
18:50:20 <Talia`> hah
18:50:24 <I440r> REALY even
18:50:29 <Talia`> that's cool
18:50:40 <I440r> oh yea
18:50:46 <I440r> its got a 30 gig hd in it too hehe
18:50:57 <I440r> no wmy kid sis can download 297436572635697823 mp3's and burn them herself :P
18:51:31 <Talia`> haha
18:51:34 <Talia`> nice
18:51:41 <Talia`> how much did the whole thing go for?
18:52:24 <I440r> erm i think it was $750 or something
18:52:28 <I440r> maybe it was $850
18:52:31 <I440r> i phorget
18:52:46 <Talia`> jeez...it's like two thirds more than I paid for my new hard-drive alone about two months ago
18:52:47 <Talia`> :P
18:53:20 <Talia`> that sounds like a good deal
18:53:27 <ree> OHH GOD NO, NOT A HP *laugh*
18:53:33 <Talia`> haha
18:53:41 <ree> something about hp, they make good peripherals, but the company 
18:53:51 <ree> looks like it is ran by a utah cult or something =)
18:54:06 <Talia`> I always wanted an HP 9000 mainframe to beat around
18:54:14 <Talia`> they are cheap as hell now too
18:54:25 <Talia`> half the time, the companies are just waiting for someone to talk them away
18:54:40 <Talia`> rent a uhaul...find a place for it that can handle the power requirements...you're all set
18:54:47 <ree> they're always pushing some family like culture with their products
18:54:57 <Talia`> it would be feasible for all but the oldest of homes too to set one up
18:55:16 <Talia`> ree: what they do now with their consumer products is very contrary to what they used to do
18:55:51 <Talia`> they used to act very rigid, and have a certain attitude that reaked of snobbery
18:55:57 <I440r> :)
18:56:03 <Talia`> like the "this is serious equipment at a serious price" kind of thing
18:56:03 <ree> Disclaimer: To by this product you must be married, own a house, have at least 60K a year coming in, no mortages, and 2.4 children
18:56:27 <Talia`> haha
18:56:30 <ree> that's on just their cdrw blanks
18:56:44 <ree> can't imagine what is on a hp computer
18:56:48 <Talia`> :D
18:57:19 <ree> yeah, they have cool products
18:58:49 <Talia`> well, I don't know about now
18:58:51 <Talia`> but they used to
18:59:16 <Talia`> I had an old catalogue of all of their scientific stuff
18:59:19 <Talia`> it's awesome stuff
18:59:49 <Talia`> the only thing I saw like it was NI's catalogue, which was all computer-based scientific instruments
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19:06:35 <Talia`> my connection keeps dropping
19:06:36 <Talia`> :P
19:07:28 <I440r> mie too
19:07:29 <I440r> it sux
19:07:35 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o Talia`
19:07:45 <Talia`> thanks +)
19:07:53 <ree> na na na na
19:07:57 <ree> mine never drops
19:08:00 <ree> hehe
19:08:17 <Talia`> hah =)
19:08:21 <ree> now that's what starts people icmp'ing 
19:08:31 <Talia`> yup =)
19:08:50 <Talia`> never say never again
19:08:50 <Talia`> =)
19:09:04 <I440r> ree im dsl
19:09:12 <I440r> it shud be stable 24/7 at 384.384
19:09:13 <I440r> its not
19:09:14 <I440r> grrr
19:09:15 <Talia`> I think I am going to pickup a crossover cable for my se/30, so I can stall a bit more on buying an expensive hub
19:09:23 <Talia`> that sucks, i4
19:09:25 <ree> i440r, I'm unicycle
19:09:31 <I440r> unicycle ?
19:09:37 <ree> with a string and cans running off the back
19:09:42 <ree> and a board that says "Just connected"
19:09:43 <Talia`> I am considering adsl for myself and a mini web-server and mailing list I wanted to put up
19:09:48 <Talia`> and wondering if it will be sufficient
19:10:01 <ree> talia, build one
19:10:02 <Talia`> because if it isnt, it would be a total waste of money
19:10:02 <Talia`> :P
19:10:03 <ree> really simple
19:10:19 <ree> I built one with just electric tape and clippers
19:10:43 <Talia`> a hub, or a crossover cable?
19:10:43 <Talia`> :D
19:10:43 <Talia`> oh
19:10:50 <ree> crossover
19:10:58 <Talia`> yeah, but I need a networking cable to modify first =)
19:11:03 <ree> yeah
19:11:07 <ree> tp, cat 5
19:11:17 <ree> I picked a nice one up at a thrift store hehe
19:11:17 <Talia`> I had a bunch here, but most of them were sickly unreliable
19:11:18 <Talia`> they had intermittent connections and so forth
19:11:21 <ree> bright green
19:11:21 <Talia`> a couple had shorts
19:11:22 <Talia`> etc.
19:11:28 <ree> ahh
19:11:29 <Talia`> all fixable...but they were in such bad shape
19:11:30 <Talia`> :P
19:11:47 <ree> I don't know why more people don't use bnc
19:11:49 <Talia`> why be so cheap...I have already blown more money than I even have
19:11:49 <Talia`> :P
19:11:54 <ree> saves a lot on wiring I guess
19:11:55 <Talia`> ree: I don't either
19:12:09 <Talia`> well, bnc connectors are a bit harder to put on
19:12:14 <Talia`> but they are a lot nicer than rj-45's
19:12:21 <ree> yeah, a _lot_ nicer
19:12:30 <ree> you can easily pull the stupid plastic clip off
19:12:46 <ree> and my one network card doesn't even except it all the way hehe
19:12:50 <Talia`> when I was into ham radio, that was the most popular connector for vhf/uhf work
19:13:08 <Talia`> microwave and hf work, you used something else entirely for their behaviour at those ranges =)
19:13:32 <ree> hehe
19:14:26 <ree> I was raised pretty "normal"
19:14:34 <Talia`> last I checked, a high quality bnc jack requires a little soldering to get the coax's jacket seated onto a ring, and so forth
19:14:35 <ree> when we were rich
19:14:37 <Talia`> requires a little time
19:14:40 <Talia`> but they are sweet
19:14:50 <ree> I had a bunch of toys, but never got into electronics
19:14:50 <Talia`> rj-45's use a crimping tool for the connectors
19:15:02 <Talia`> ka-chunk...done....assuming you stripped the wire properly
19:16:02 <Talia`> my electronics work as a tot was seeing how much it would take from a variable voltage model train power supply to set steel wool on fire, and so forth
19:16:03 <Talia`> =)
19:16:16 <Talia`> did the occasional soldering for fixing bad connections, etc.
19:16:21 <Talia`> nothing good or anything
19:16:48 <ree> yeah
19:16:52 <ree> I got shocked a lot of times 
19:17:03 <ree> off my electric train set
19:17:06 <Talia`> I replaced all the outlets in my room the other day
19:17:11 <Talia`> one of the outlets was dangerous as hell
19:17:15 <ree> the smoke comes out of your ears, not the train
19:17:20 <Talia`> haha
19:17:21 <Talia`> =)
19:17:45 <Talia`> one outlet here was blowing fuses left and right....it would spark and shoot chunks off my screwdriver because there was a short somewhere
19:18:00 <Talia`> the other outlets were on a different circuit...so they were quite safe
19:18:12 <Talia`> of course...I am too stupid to turn the power off when I do it because I am too lazy
19:18:31 <Talia`> besides it's fun to see if you can get a notch cut in the shaft so deep the tip falls off
19:18:48 <Talia`> guess I have to go bother sears about their lifetime warranty =)
19:18:49 <ree> hehe
19:18:50 <ree> yeah
19:19:10 <Talia`> I like craftsmen hand tools for that
19:19:16 <ree> I estimate that at least 98% of all electricutions were caused by lazieness
19:19:22 <ree> if you don't count texas
19:19:37 <Talia`> they are by no means the best tool...but you can beat the hell out of them...even intentionally...and they will ALWAYS take it back...even if you had it for ten years
19:19:45 <Talia`> and have no receipt
19:19:57 <Talia`> haha, I am sure they were
19:20:00 <Talia`> haha
19:20:11 <Talia`> I agree with you on that
19:20:19 <Talia`> well, house voltage is nothing really to worry about
19:20:32 <ree> heh
19:20:47 <ree> when you're plugging a 37" foot motorhome into a 220 outlet standing in a pool of water
19:20:49 <ree> it might be
19:20:51 <Talia`> as many bits it shoots off your screwdriver...unless you put yourself in a compromised position with the main fuse boxes downstairs...a single outlet is not much to worry about
19:20:57 <Talia`> well, that's true
19:21:05 <ree> aka, my old house
19:21:07 <Talia`> I am assuming of course that there are no abnormal hazards around
19:21:15 <Talia`> like a bathtub or a puddle of water =)
19:22:06 <Talia`> I have changed outlets using a dime as a screwdriver
19:22:09 <Talia`> didn't get shocked
19:22:17 <Talia`> but I would if it was that other outlet that kept blowing fuses
19:22:25 <ree> same here
19:22:27 <Talia`> that's a house fire waiting to happen
19:22:31 <Talia`> totally defective wiring on that one
19:22:34 <ree> I've stuck my fingers in outlets hehe
19:22:39 <Talia`> haha
19:22:43 <ree> and a butterknife too
19:22:44 <Talia`> =)
19:22:49 <Talia`> my fingers don't fit
19:22:49 <Talia`> :P
19:22:58 <ree> I've consistently used a butterknife to open the face plates
19:23:19 <Talia`> hell, we all know the butterknife is the tool of the professional
19:23:22 <Talia`> :D
19:23:26 <ree> yep
19:23:34 <ree> you can use the same one throughout the day too
19:23:40 <Talia`> stick that in my SE/30's CRT shortly after powering down...you get a pleasant 9-13K volts out of that
19:23:43 <Talia`> no joke =)
19:23:48 <ree> sandwhiches, jelly, peanut butter, electrical
19:23:51 <Talia`> hahaha
19:23:53 <ree> cleaning sinks
19:23:55 <Talia`> that's disgusting
19:24:00 <ree> all can be done in the same day
19:24:04 <ree> with the same tool
19:24:15 <Talia`> of course, I mean having peanut butter in my wall outlets
19:24:23 <Talia`> I couldn't care less if plastic bits were in my sandwich
19:24:30 <Talia`> shows how I have my priorities misplaced
19:24:31 <Talia`> :P
19:24:47 <ree> hah
19:25:31 <Talia`> if I ever build a home for myself...I am going to bring in two independent power feeds into it
19:26:11 <ree> one at the top of the stairs, the other at the bottom
19:27:10 <ree> that one house I lived in
19:27:21 <ree> you always got shocked after walking across the floor
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19:27:25 <ree> huge fluffy carpet
19:27:29 <ree> hehe
19:27:36 <ree> that one house I lived in
19:27:38 <ree> you always got shocked after walking across the floor
19:27:38 <goshawk`> all three prongs are the same size...one goes horizontally...the other two are 45 degrees to it in opposing directions
19:27:41 --- quit: Talia` (Read error to Talia`[agreen.dialup.cloud9.net]: No route to host)
19:27:41 <ree> huge fluffy carpet
19:27:42 <goshawk`> erk
19:27:43 <goshawk`> what is thiu? :P
19:27:53 <goshawk`> what was the last thing I said?
19:27:56 <goshawk`> haha, I love that kind of rug
19:28:01 <ree> home for myself
19:28:04 <goshawk`> the kind of rug that you cat becomes a walking car battery
19:28:10 <ree> haha go
19:28:12 <goshawk`> you = your
19:28:38 <goshawk`> 25:30: <Talia`> and each feed will have a set of outlets in each room
19:28:38 <goshawk`> 22:25:47: <Talia`> also have those industrial grade plugs running 240V in some rooms as well
19:28:38 <goshawk`> 22:26:01: <Talia`> you know the kind of plugs that stoves and some refrigerators and dryers use
19:28:39 <goshawk`> 22:26:08: <Talia`> I forget what they call that
19:28:57 <goshawk`> do you know what they call those plugs?
19:29:06 <ree> 3 prong
19:29:08 <ree> no, I forget
19:29:22 <goshawk`> yeah
19:29:28 <goshawk`> almost nothing we own uses them
19:29:40 <goshawk`> only industrial grade stuff uses it generally
19:29:44 <goshawk`> but they are sweet
19:30:03 <goshawk`> of course, I would love to add that half of them require an individual grounding stake driven into the ground outside
19:30:10 <goshawk`> so, they aren't cheap =)
19:30:36 --- nick: goshawk` -> Talia`
19:30:59 <ree> this house I'm in now
19:31:08 <ree> a electrician use to live here
19:31:27 <ree> so I have a big outdoors guest house like place
19:31:31 <ree> has a bathroom
19:31:38 <ree> and a big desk with about 20 outlets
19:31:42 <ree> 6' strip
19:31:44 <ree> huge lighting
19:31:48 <ree> and a alarm system
19:32:07 <Talia`> neat
19:32:08 <ree> he also had it setup where there was a second desk and some sort of venting system
19:32:11 <Talia`> you're very lucky
19:32:14 <ree> like a little testing station
19:32:20 <Talia`> that's awesome
19:32:33 <ree> and there is a large cb like antenna 
19:32:39 <ree> and vhf/uhf one too
19:32:41 <Talia`> I have a testing station here too...some call it a fuse-a-tron
19:32:57 <ree> I ripped out the testing station wall
19:33:00 <Talia`> *pow*...<lights go out> "that didn't work"
19:33:03 <ree> it was just ply wood behind
19:33:14 <ree> we turned the bathroom area into a wash room
19:33:17 <Talia`> neat
19:33:20 <ree> and I setup the gym in the one large room
19:33:30 <ree> hehe, my mom's clothes are filling the desk area
19:33:39 <ree> when I initially moved in
19:33:48 <ree> I setup my computers in the desk area
19:34:08 <ree> but it was summer, and too hot
19:34:12 <Talia`> yeah
19:34:25 <Talia`> this is the coolest room in the house all year round
19:34:39 <Talia`> even colder than the basement sometimes
19:34:51 <Talia`> which has more likeness to a dungeon than an actual basement
19:35:02 <ree> you're in your parents room? j/k
19:35:12 <Talia`> I think it is not unlike a nazi bomb bunker
19:35:13 <Talia`> :P
19:35:14 <Talia`> haha
19:35:19 <Talia`> hard to tell, eh?
19:35:19 <Talia`> :D
19:35:24 <ree> hah
19:35:49 <Talia`> supposedly, the wiring in this house was state of the art for '52
19:35:59 <Talia`> but...it has seen next to no repair since then
19:36:07 <Talia`> so...fuck it...not much good anymore is it? :P
19:36:36 <Talia`> I can't wait to bring in more equipment...I will be spending as much money on fuses as I will on equipment
19:36:37 <ree> heh
19:37:06 <Talia`> I think I am going to have to APS all my gear soon, as well
19:37:29 <Talia`> so it tolerates fuse-blowing
19:37:40 <Talia`> and gives me a little time to run downstairs and fix the power
19:37:44 <ree> hah
19:37:53 <ree> well, knowing your power sucking equipment
19:38:03 <ree> probably just long enough to run down and trip the line
19:39:01 <ree> I bet your local power company has you up on the wall listed as partner of the year
19:39:20 <Talia`> haha =)
19:40:00 <Talia`> one of my outlets appears to be on the same circuit as the washer and dryer downstairs
19:40:11 <ree> hah, I love playing the outlet game
19:40:15 <Talia`> that means when the washer and dryer is running with all my equipment on....we are pushing over 3300 watts
19:40:18 <ree> which is tied to where
19:40:28 <ree> I had one house where it almost felt random
19:40:32 <Talia`> I have to say I am definitely thrilled
19:40:43 <Talia`> well, it probably was =)
19:40:51 <Talia`> my room has three circuits in it =)
19:41:27 <Talia`> the outlet near the east window is on one circuit...the dangerous outlet is the same as the closet lights....and the other two outlets are on yet another circuit
19:41:37 <Talia`> it's totally random =)
19:41:40 <ree> I learned a few new vi commands
19:41:47 <Talia`> neat, which ones?
19:42:01 <ree> $, ^, ( )   I already knew )
19:42:32 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ppp-113.u1-h1.dca.fcc.net) joined #forth
19:42:32 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard
19:42:33 <Talia`> when I was running the Kaypro I got pretty decent at configuring vim
19:42:35 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:42:41 <Talia`> unfortunately, I completely forgot all of it since then
19:43:03 <Talia`> between that and screen, those were the two apps I knew how to use nearly all the features on...
19:43:10 <Talia`> cheers blue =)
19:43:15 <TheBlueWizard> :)
19:43:27 <TheBlueWizard> so what are you yakkin' about?
19:43:34 <ree> hah
19:43:35 <ree> vi
19:43:38 <Talia`> just general stuff
19:43:45 <ree> yeah
19:43:48 <Talia`> at the immediate  moment, vi/vim
19:43:48 <ree> vi and shocking yourself
19:43:50 <Talia`> haha =)
19:43:52 <Talia`> yup
19:43:55 <TheBlueWizard> just vi?  how lame :)
19:44:16 <ree> thunder will strike you dead for that =)
19:44:18 <ree> j/k
19:44:22 <Talia`> well, we started just as you came in
19:44:31 <Talia`> so it wasn't a long-lived discussion, so don't worry =)
19:44:44 <ree> ohh ohh, brb, have to make a run for the border
19:44:46 <ree> damn taco bell heh
19:44:48 <Talia`> jeez...I still have the Kaypro all folded up in the closet
19:44:56 <Talia`> I am also tempted to take it out and play with it
19:45:06 <Talia`> but then I'd also be an idiot
19:45:28 * TheBlueWizard will absorb the blow and rechannel that onto the next poor sap who just comes along... ;)
19:46:17 <Talia`> I had a lot of fun on the Kaypro
19:46:28 <Talia`> I ironically haven't gotten as much done since
19:46:32 <Talia`> on my new machine(s)
19:47:42 --- topic: set to 'do drop >in for Retrocomputin' Time! ;)' by TheBlueWizard
19:47:49 <Talia`> haha =)
19:47:56 <Talia`> did  you ever own a Kaypro, wiz?
19:48:17 <TheBlueWizard> nope...but I have seen a Kaypro....a long time ago :)
19:48:23 <Talia`> =)
19:48:34 <TheBlueWizard> "in machine" (like "in person" :)
19:48:42 <Talia`> :D
19:49:13 <TheBlueWizard> you must be a diehard Kaypro fan....
19:49:18 <Talia`> well, after all my pc's blow up one after another [like clockwork] in 1998...I got the chance to use a Kaypro from July to January of this year
19:49:27 <Talia`> well...no...it was the only machine I had
19:49:30 <Talia`> and I think I made the best of it
19:49:32 <Talia`> =)
19:50:00 <TheBlueWizard> ah...your PCs died like flies, eh?  sounds like you got the real bad batch....
19:50:04 <Talia`> had a 1200 Hayes Smartmodem I soldered up the connectors on the power supply hanging around...and I just manually dialed in using the term program to check my email and irc
19:50:09 <Talia`> yup =)
19:50:34 <Talia`> every attempt I made to fixing them was a total failure...and a waste of money
19:51:01 <Talia`> I even stooped low enough to buy used pc's from people...and they would come in the mail broken to pieces
19:51:10 <TheBlueWizard> boy you really are something of a neo-retro-computerist :)
19:51:13 <Talia`> so...it was the on the Kaypro I would stay =)
19:51:36 <Talia`> well...yeah...I used it because it was the only computer that would stay working
19:51:57 <Talia`> and I kind of grew to like it...since it was the only dependable computer I had
19:51:59 <TheBlueWizard> sorry to hear that...I am typing away on Winblows PC (minitower, used), and I have my laptop running Debian Linux
19:52:11 <Talia`> well, I am fortunately not using the Kaypro anymore
19:52:26 * TheBlueWizard nods re: preferring to use something that one can trust....
19:52:27 <Talia`> but it stays in my closet for rainy days and when my current run of machines ever decide to blow up again
19:52:38 <TheBlueWizard> heh
19:52:38 <Talia`> you never know =)
19:53:24 <Talia`> I was able to get fresh copies of the system diskettes...a C and Z80 compiler and assembler..a Forth interpretter I have yet to try...and a bunch of other things
19:53:28 <Talia`> it's actually quite cool
19:53:36 <TheBlueWizard> kewl
19:53:57 <Talia`> yeah, I thought so
19:54:15 <TheBlueWizard> :)
19:54:17 <ree> well, china is really going to hate what I just delivered
19:54:30 <TheBlueWizard> you ever seen an Amiga? I own 2 Amigas :)
19:54:38 <TheBlueWizard> china?
19:54:49 <Talia`> when I bought my new machines...it was astonishing to have a computer 16 years newer than the one I had been using
19:55:05 <Talia`> =)
19:55:20 <Talia`> yes, I haven't actually had much time to play with one in person
19:55:32 <Talia`> but I respect them greatly for the kind of software support they once had
19:55:52 <Talia`> probably the next best music machine I can think of before the PC caught up with the mac
19:56:16 <Talia`> which Amiga's do you own?
19:56:17 <TheBlueWizard> yeah Amiga was quite something....but C= is dumber than a doorknob, so...<shrugs>
19:56:26 <TheBlueWizard> Amiga 1000 and Amiga 3000
19:56:30 <Talia`> neat
19:56:51 <Talia`> I figured that when my expenses kind of slowed down and had some cash to blow, I figure I would put together an Amiga system of kind for fun
19:57:17 <Talia`> there is an amazing amount of Amiga stuff still out there...so it isn't as retro as I had thought it might have been
19:57:26 <Talia`> but, I am sure you already knew that =)
19:57:30 <TheBlueWizard> thanks :)  I do use Amiga 3000 once every three months or so hehe...but I now am trying to make backup files....and I ran into a nasty bug (not on Amiga...on Linux)
19:57:59 <Talia`> that's cool
19:58:15 <Talia`> from what i can tell...it really seems to be a sweet machine
19:58:17 <TheBlueWizard> no....there is a strong Amiga community....but the lack of serious "progress" (especially in hardware area) is definitely hurting
19:58:23 <Talia`> I really regret not knowing more about it
19:58:40 <Talia`> yeah, that's a shame
19:58:41 <ree> I noticed a few amigars in here
19:59:06 <TheBlueWizard> ah....if you are living in (or near) a big city, try looking for Amiga user club and pay the meeting a visit ;)
19:59:25 <TheBlueWizard> ree: who else?
19:59:33 <Talia`> well, I will do that
19:59:40 <Talia`> it would be fun, if not particularly helpful to my own set of machines
19:59:47 <ree> tbw, my memory fails me (like 99%) of the time
19:59:53 <ree> but people working on the retro os
20:00:27 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
20:02:35 <TheBlueWizard> um...re: my saying about C= being dumber than a doorknob, I'm referring to the mgmt...I have big respect for the engineers, HW and SW though (I also have C-64 too :)
20:03:07 <ree> c=?
20:04:35 <TheBlueWizard> C= is the ASCII rendering of the Commodore logo
20:04:41 <ree> ahh
20:05:03 <TheBlueWizard> ever seen that logo?
20:05:05 <ree> I've seen a commodore/amiga before
20:05:11 <ree> I've even owned a amiga once
20:05:14 <ree> but a really old one
20:05:21 <TheBlueWizard> which Amiga?
20:05:22 <ree> only played games on it
20:05:25 <ree> have no idea
20:05:29 <ree> not even sure if I owned it
20:06:04 <ree> I think I played on it at one of my sister's friend's house
20:06:07 <TheBlueWizard> if it has a keyboard garage, then it must be Amiga 1000...is that the case?
20:07:04 <ree> hehe
20:07:09 <ree> my memory eludes me
20:07:25 <ree> I wish I was more in tune with the amiga hardware at least
20:07:38 <ree> I avoided that kind of hardware at thrift stores
20:07:59 <ree> merely because the cases were god awful ugly =)
20:08:17 <ree> my favorite game was on a amiga
20:08:19 <ree> chopter
20:08:37 <ree> you used a helicopter and rescued people/bombed tanks
20:08:44 * TheBlueWizard doesn't recall that name of the game
20:10:11 <ree> might be a different name
20:10:36 <TheBlueWizard> hehe...there were a lot of games for Amiag
20:10:54 <ree> I also had a skiing game
20:11:04 <ree> but it crashed a lot
20:13:28 <TheBlueWizard> due to the fact that AmigaOS lacks MMU, it is easy to crash the system with a badly coded app...though the OS itself is surprisingly stable per se
20:16:41 <TheBlueWizard> several Amiga resources to help start you off:  http://www.amiga.org   http://www.amiga.com (yes, Amiga is still around)    http://www.ncaug.org (I go to that club regularly for fun :)
20:16:55 <ree> yeah, I've been looking at them for a little
20:17:10 <ree> they don't support a open software model, so I don't really care much =)
20:18:29 <TheBlueWizard> yeah....though I do wish to retain that elusive spirit of Amiga....it is so hard to recapture that.... :-/    but I am pretty much a Debian Linux guy nowadays...but don't fret ;)
20:18:42 <ree> hehe, linux 
20:19:06 <Talia`> there is much to be said about the "spirit" of some of these old machines
20:19:22 <Talia`> you can almost see the ideals of the original designers shine through
20:19:25 <Talia`> kind of cool
20:19:31 <Talia`> even if you disagree with those ideals
20:19:32 <ree> yeah
20:19:42 <ree> since a lot of them you can track their history in detail
20:19:54 <ree> now you have a bunch of developers throwing together crap with new names
20:20:00 <Talia`> yup
20:20:12 * TheBlueWizard nods vigorously re: the "spirit" of the old machines...it is amazing how M$ succeed in draining all the fun and joy out of today's machines....
20:20:18 <Talia`> the first handful of Macs (before the SE) were really quite cool spirited machines
20:20:22 <Talia`> they had a definite flavour to them
20:20:38 <ree> I think MS is working towards getting multimedia into machines
20:20:38 <Talia`> the 128K (the original), 512K, and the Plus
20:20:43 <Talia`> all really slick machines
20:20:45 <ree> just the PC has been a poor platform 
20:20:48 <TheBlueWizard> I don't like Macs....never do....
20:21:00 <ree> hehe
20:21:09 <ree> not even the old ones?
20:21:10 <Talia`> blue: I can understand...I use them for my work with music...so there isn't much of a choice in the matter for me =)
20:21:29 <ree> I think I could turn my LC into the size of a potato chip
20:21:38 <ree> with current technology
20:21:43 <Talia`> haha, you bet
20:21:47 <Talia`> probably smaller
20:21:52 <TheBlueWizard> I work with Winblows in my work...and am trying to get out of that job :)
20:21:55 <ree> including the harddrive =)
20:22:03 <TheBlueWizard> :)
20:22:08 <Talia`> like ultratechnology's embedded-chess-game-in-a-mouse
20:22:14 <Talia`> game = computer
20:22:17 <ree> tbw, despite how uninspirational windows is
20:22:27 <ree> is there another PC based os that is more inspirational?
20:22:37 <Talia`> os/2
20:22:39 <Talia`>  =)
20:22:43 <ree> hehe
20:22:50 <Talia`> a little long in the tooth
20:22:54 <Talia`> but I always thought it was cool
20:22:55 <ree> you and I know, it offers great usability
20:22:56 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:22:59 <ree> but has it ever inspired
20:23:15 <ree> the authors were damn amazing people
20:23:27 <TheBlueWizard> one of my friend is a big OS/2 fan....he told me there are quite some resources for OS?2 too
20:23:34 <Talia`> well, hard to say...since I was running it on my 486 before it blew up
20:23:34 <ree> though it stayed relatively in the bg 
20:23:42 <ree> yeah tbw
20:23:50 <ree> you can run almost any unix app on it
20:23:52 <Talia`> blue: yes...there have been...but they are beginning to show signs of crumbling
20:23:55 <ree> XFree86 for it is quite advanced
20:24:11 <ree> yeah, ibm officially dropped it from its product line
20:24:22 <ree> after warp server for e-business was released
20:24:30 <Talia`> even places like Germany are rapidly abandoning it...which is one of the many places it was a HUGE hit
20:25:18 <Talia`> I would say the only other inspirational system perhaps comparable to windows might be mac os
20:25:21 * TheBlueWizard nods
20:25:28 <Talia`> since I kind of consider it to be in the same niche
20:25:35 * TheBlueWizard nods again
20:25:42 <ree> ibm might consider to open source it
20:25:49 <ree> since they are building ties with linux
20:26:02 <Talia`> unfortunately, mac os is also has code in it so long in the tooth I don't think apple would like to openly admit it
20:26:20 <ree> I don't think any os currently is inspirational
20:26:26 <Talia`> the interface is uncommonly refined...but I really do hate all the mac os systems since early version 7.x
20:26:30 <Talia`> ree: I don't think so
20:26:37 <ree> I think what you can imagine doing with an os might be considered inspiration
20:26:40 <Talia`> but you asked me to pick the best I could think of =)
20:27:02 <ree> though, I might be wrong
20:27:06 <ree> I haven't tried out OS/9
20:27:10 <ree> or plan 9
20:27:20 <Talia`> I have a demonstration copy of os 9
20:27:31 <Talia`> seems like a wicked little embedded operating system
20:27:33 <TheBlueWizard> remember that there may be cross-licensed codes sitting inside those OSes, so that can delay the open-sourcing of these OSes....<shrug>
20:27:44 <ree> tbw, yeah, it'll never happen
20:27:46 <Talia`> blue: yup =)
20:27:53 * TheBlueWizard never have seen OS/9 or Plan 9 in action
20:27:53 <ree> they'd be sued to hell and never be back =)
20:28:14 <Talia`> maybe they could open soure os/2 1.1...but that would be about it =)
20:28:25 <Talia`> I remember running that as a gag on my 486
20:28:33 <ree> actually
20:28:35 <ree> they don't have to
20:28:36 <Talia`> it was pretty slick, given the age
20:28:43 <ree> I think a group of people disassembled it
20:28:50 <Talia`> hehe
20:29:04 * TheBlueWizard nods re: the problems involved in open-sourcing the codes....
20:29:09 <Talia`> I remember how pissed off people were when someone had taken the stolen source of quake and made an os/2 port out of it
20:29:11 <Talia`> that was cute
20:29:30 <ree> yeah
20:29:34 <ree> wasn't the OS/2 port the first?
20:29:57 <Talia`> no...it was done by some random unknown guy
20:30:21 <Talia`> the source was completed by id I believe...and they sent it to crack.com or whatever their name was to do other ports of the source
20:30:27 <ree> but idgames has been good about stuff like that
20:30:38 <Talia`> and someone broke into their servers and stole the source
20:30:52 <Talia`> and someone else got their hands on the stolen source and made the os/2 port
20:31:00 <Talia`> at least, that's how I believe the scenario went
20:31:09 <Talia`> that's true...they authorized the linux port
20:31:21 <Talia`> and had originally authorized a rather shoddy doom port for os/2
20:31:30 <Talia`> but I don't think they authorized the os/2 quake port
20:31:49 <Talia`> because many servers banned it for a time as being "stolen software"...even though it was clearly with good intentions in mind
20:32:12 * TheBlueWizard doesn't know the full story of Doom/Quake porting
20:32:15 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...
20:32:22 <Talia`> well, I don't either
20:32:29 <Talia`> I am just recalling what I remember offhand
20:32:49 <Talia`> it was actually a good port of quake
20:33:04 <ree> tbw, dd if=/dev/random of=quake.tar.gz bs=1000000 count=64
20:33:12 <Talia`> the mouse support was interesting in that it would have an odd decay to the motion when the mouse was stopped
20:33:18 <Talia`> so it took some time to get the feel of
20:33:27 <Talia`> and the sound support required os/2 4.0
20:33:32 <ree> just set your clock back to 04:30 feb 2, 1994 first
20:33:35 <Talia`> I know, because I was running 3.0 =)
20:33:57 <ree> hehe
20:34:15 <ree> 3.0 had a great run
20:34:18 <ree> in support
20:34:26 <Talia`> OS/2 made a reasonable ditch at a decent MIDI library with version 4.0
20:34:26 <Talia`> RTMIDI
20:34:28 <ree> like a billion patches were released
20:34:45 <TheBlueWizard> ree: lol re: dd that stuff
20:34:52 <Talia`> it wasn't that fast, but it was reasonably flexible
20:35:14 <Talia`> even today, it makes the windows MIDI support look quite obsolete by all means
20:35:21 <Talia`> except maybe for support for usb
20:35:25 <Talia`> devices :P
20:35:34 <ree> I should enter my front page to the 5k awards
20:35:49 <Talia`> what are those?
20:36:17 <ree> ohh, it's a contest between web pages that are 5k and smaller
20:36:25 <Talia`> hahaha
20:36:32 <Talia`> no wa
20:36:32 <ree> but about 50% of all of the entries last year used dhtml
20:36:33 <Talia`> y
20:36:37 <Talia`> haha
20:36:40 <ree> with some damn cool effects too
20:36:43 <ree> amazing what you can do
20:36:47 <Talia`> yeah, it is
20:36:48 <ree> one was a frog page
20:36:53 <ree> you feed a bunch of flies to the frog
20:36:57 <Talia`> it reminds me of ham radio QRP contests
20:37:02 <ree> by clicking and dragging the flies to the frog's mouth
20:37:09 <ree> the mouth would open
20:37:19 <ree> then when you are done, it spits them out and they fly back
20:37:28 <Talia`> "how many countries can you make contact and hold a 1 minutes discussion with, using a radio powered by a 9V battery"
20:37:40 <Talia`> hah, cool
20:37:57 <ree> there were a few other entries
20:38:03 <ree> one was a entire paint program
20:38:06 <Talia`> 9V = 9V clock radio
20:38:16 <ree> another was a 4d maze
20:38:40 <Talia`> of course they don't limit you to anything except the radio can't  transmit at more than 5 watts
20:38:46 <Talia`> neat
20:38:49 <Talia`> that's slick
20:38:54 <ree> yeah
20:38:56 <Talia`> a 4d maze =)
20:39:11 <ree> it'd be fun to spend a lifetime researching which abstractions let you do the most in the smallest space
20:39:28 <Talia`> "just pretend your time watching this dumb program execute is the 4th dimension"
20:39:43 <ree> hah
20:39:46 <Talia`> sounds like the work of the chemist =)
20:40:16 <ree> what it did was seperate the maze into a few blocks
20:40:26 <ree> then use black and red square sections
20:40:33 <Talia`> neat
20:40:53 <Talia`> my analysis program igor program has some 4 dimensional data support
20:40:56 <ree> you'd have to stay on the red and then you could move to the same location on a cooresponding square with the same red position
20:41:00 <Talia`> as  I am sure I have said many times
20:41:09 <Talia`> that's cool
20:41:16 <Talia`> almost like a whacked game of 3D chess
20:41:22 <ree> hehe
20:41:39 <Talia`> igor program = igor pro
20:41:40 <Talia`> jeez
20:41:48 <Talia`> my typing and thinking is getting sloppy
20:42:09 <Talia`> maybe I call upon the forces of the "I-don't-giveashit" demon
20:42:21 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:42:37 <I440r> tbw!!!
20:42:39 <I440r> hehe
20:42:43 <I440r> reading a book...
20:42:53 <I440r> enders game by orson scot card...
20:42:58 <I440r> cool book :)
20:43:06 <Talia`> I read that...that was a neat book =)
20:43:11 <TheBlueWizard> hiya I440r! :)
20:43:25 * TheBlueWizard never have heard of that book
20:43:43 <ree> what's a book?
20:43:44 <ree> =)
20:44:04 <Talia`> tbw: a worthwhile read if you are into some decent science fiction stories
20:44:11 <I440r> ree :P
20:44:16 <I440r> tbw get it
20:44:20 <I440r> ive read 8it b4
20:44:33 <I440r> it has a awesom twist to it at the end....
20:44:53 <TheBlueWizard> what genre is that book?
20:45:00 <Talia`> ender's game?
20:45:01 <ree> gay lesbian rights
20:45:02 * TheBlueWizard is rather choosy....
20:45:04 <Talia`> haha ree
20:45:16 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:45:19 <ree> the "end" has a awesome "twist"
20:45:24 <Talia`> actually...it's not very unlike many of the science fiction stories of old
20:45:39 <Talia`> except with updated ideas and language
20:45:49 <ree> so a lot of racism and talk about drinking alcohol? =)
20:45:54 <Talia`> I am sure it will be remembered as a classic ten or twenty years from now
20:45:55 <Talia`> hahaha
20:45:57 <Talia`> sob =)
20:46:08 <ree> er, that's just classic star trek novels
20:46:11 <Talia`> actually, I think the real quality sci-fi books were actually quite clean
20:46:32 <ree> yeah
20:46:38 <ree> santa claus 
20:47:12 <ree> aerodynamic cattle
20:47:24 <Talia`> many of the old ray bradbury....phillip jose farmer...etc.
20:47:32 <Talia`> c'mon =)
20:47:53 <Talia`> they were good solid stories...without a lot of bs you find in "period" works
20:48:24 <Talia`> which as you point out....star trek was an exponent of...and remains to be to this day [somehow!]
20:48:25 <Talia`> =)
20:48:35 <ree> hehe
20:48:40 <ree> I like the classic star trek
20:48:48 <ree> it at least got something done
20:49:04 <ree> fighting in every episode =)
20:49:05 <Talia`> I think the original star trek television series was clever...I would say the only thing they had for it was the writing
20:49:14 <ree> shameless killing off of other entire species
20:49:16 <I440r> :)
20:49:16 <I440r> hehe
20:49:24 <Talia`> this is something that seems to be lacking in nearly every star trek series since
20:49:25 <Talia`> :D
20:49:26 <I440r> what have i started here :)
20:49:46 <Talia`> if you are going to give me close-minded ethno-centric viewpoints, at least give me good writing!
20:49:48 <ree> what's lacking is that not a single series ends up showing any benefit for the technology they acquired
20:49:53 <ree> it's the same old federation
20:49:57 <Talia`> yup =)
20:50:08 <ree> encountered hundreds of alien lifeforms
20:50:19 <Talia`> but you see...it wasn't lacking at all
20:50:26 <ree> come back with cuban coffee beans and elian gonzalez
20:50:27 <Talia`> that's exactly what humans would do
20:50:49 <Talia`> they would still think they are better than everyone else...yet they would get their asses kicked many times...and still come away arrogant as ever =)
20:51:11 <Talia`> :D
20:51:24 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:51:51 <TheBlueWizard> even bigger problem: almost all aliens are so damn humanoid! ;)
20:52:01 <Talia`> yup
20:52:15 <ree> given the big bang theory
20:52:29 <ree> it doesn't really support any other aliens does it?
20:52:34 <Talia`> nope
20:52:38 <Talia`> it's ethnocentric out the ass
20:52:53 <Talia`> if you consider humanity to be an ethnic group, in this case =)
20:53:06 <Talia`> which is a little bit of muddying the waters
20:53:06 <ree> I imagine that for fun we'll one day plant humans
20:53:06 <Talia`> =)
20:53:13 <ree> on other planets
20:53:24 <Talia`> ree: sounds like the original "Invasion of the Body Snatchers"
20:53:24 <ree> go away and come back after a few hundred thousand years
20:53:27 <ree> and scare the shit out of them
20:53:28 <Talia`> :D
20:53:36 <Talia`> haha
20:53:37 <Talia`> sob
20:53:38 <Talia`> :D
20:53:55 <ree> huge light show
20:54:08 <ree> big scary costumes
20:54:12 <Talia`> strange objects that seem to move beyond the limits of the imagination
20:54:20 <Talia`> deformed cattle
20:54:21 <Talia`> =)
20:54:35 <Talia`> x-mas lights floating in the sky
20:54:45 <Talia`> you know
20:54:49 <Talia`> I am beginning to like that idea
20:54:59 <Talia`> I wonder if they take requests
20:55:05 <ree> basically we'll just send down that fat ass rosie o'donnel
20:55:09 <Talia`> haha
20:55:29 <Talia`> she's not scary enough...although  it's sure enough to cause heart disease in a toddler
20:55:44 <ree> if she isn't enough
20:55:46 <ree> her co host is
20:57:17 <Talia`> :D
20:57:31 <Talia`> it's like the old expression
20:57:32 <Talia`> ...
20:57:34 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o Talia`
20:57:37 <Talia`> he has the heart of a child...
20:57:42 <Talia`> in a jar...
20:57:47 <Talia`> on his desk...
20:57:48 <Talia`> :D
20:57:52 <ree> hehe
20:57:59 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:58:31 <ree> I want to use html 2.0 
20:58:40 <ree> but it doesn't support font heh 
20:58:45 <Talia`> I want to use CP/M 2.2
20:58:48 <ree> so I have to use 3.2
20:58:50 <Talia`> oh wait...I already have that
20:58:51 <Talia`> =)
20:59:08 <ree> 4.0 strict gets rid of all formatting characters hehe
21:01:07 <Talia`> well, not to worry ree
21:01:16 <Talia`> I don't think users care which version you use
21:01:27 <ree> yeah
21:01:38 <ree> I don't want to use anchor references (links)
21:01:42 <Talia`> remember the other old phrase that is the key component of web pages
21:01:44 <Talia`> ..
21:01:52 <Talia`> if you can't dazzle them with footwork...
21:01:58 <Talia`> then baffle them with bullshit...
21:02:00 <Talia`> ..
21:02:19 <Talia`> it's the cardinal rule of marketing any new technology
21:02:23 <I440r> Talia`: i have a kaypro II :)
21:02:33 <Talia`> i440: neat! I have the 2X =)
21:02:38 <Talia`> do you use it?
21:02:42 <I440r> plus all the original manuals and floppies :)
21:02:47 <I440r> no
21:02:50 <Talia`> sheeit...I am jealous
21:02:51 <I440r> its boxed up
21:02:58 <ree> lol, even has the box
21:03:09 <I440r> me dad has anothetr two in upstate ny he used to run a bbs from
21:03:11 <Talia`> I have the original mac 128K box for mac plus
21:03:15 <Talia`> it's a bit beat up, though
21:03:24 <Talia`> sheeit....any for sale?
21:03:26 <Talia`> :D
21:03:33 <I440r> newp :)
21:03:34 <TheBlueWizard> wow...another Kaypro guy here hehe
21:03:50 <I440r> i USED to have a kaypro mug or 2
21:03:55 <Talia`> damn...if you ever decide to let one go...let me know =)
21:03:56 <I440r> they got busted :(
21:04:01 <I440r> heeh
21:04:13 <I440r> $87567875675867587486739898450897 ???
21:04:15 <I440r> each ?
21:04:22 <Talia`> hah
21:04:28 <Talia`> a reasonable price =)
21:04:33 <I440r> heeh
21:04:40 <Talia`> your kaypro will not pay for your new house in malibu =)
21:04:54 <TheBlueWizard> lol
21:05:43 <ree> but it's perfectly capable as functioning for one
21:05:56 <ree> heavy construction
21:06:03 <ree> steel plate reinforcement
21:06:09 <ree> just need to add the kitchen sink
21:06:11 <ree> and you'll be made
21:06:35 <I440r> dont forget the coffee maker :P
21:06:39 <TheBlueWizard> lol!
21:06:45 <I440r> it shud have that too heeh
21:07:21 <ree> that comes with IIx
21:07:32 <ree> talia knows
21:07:35 <Talia`> IIx? as in Macintosh IIx?
21:07:40 <ree> er
21:07:41 <ree> 2x
21:07:43 <ree> die
21:07:47 <Talia`> hah
21:07:47 <ree> hehe
21:07:48 <ree> .die
21:07:49 <Talia`> sorry
21:08:10 <Talia`> SE/30 == Macintosh IIx in a Macintosh SE chassis
21:08:33 <Talia`> yeah, it's a good "little" computer (it weighs nineteen pounds!)
21:08:46 <Talia`> I need some cardboard dummy diskettes for it so it can handle being moved around
21:09:17 <Talia`> good little computer == Kaypro
21:09:28 <Talia`> SE/30 is too...which actually also weighs about nineteen pounds
21:09:32 <Talia`> but that's beside the point
21:10:05 <ree> yes, the point actually adds an extra pound to it
21:10:26 <Talia`> yeah, the SE/30 is actually half a pound heavier =)
21:10:32 <Talia`> all because of the point
21:10:32 <Talia`> =)
21:10:58 <Talia`> I don't know why I thought the SE/30 would take up less space on my desk, because it is a compact mac
21:10:59 <ree> but you're still missing half the point then
21:11:12 <Talia`> you don't put four external hard drives on it and expect it to still have a small footprint
21:11:15 <Talia`> what was I thinking? =)
21:11:18 <Talia`> :D
21:11:27 <Talia`> well, some would say I also have a screw loose
21:11:35 <Talia`> which makes it hard to get the point altogether
21:12:21 <ree> hah, four external hdd
21:12:36 <ree> I bet your desk can serve as a hot plate as well
21:12:48 <Talia`> haha
21:12:55 <Talia`> the fan noise is an uproar
21:12:57 <ree> one of those japanese cooking sheets
21:13:08 <ree> HI HO HI HI HI HEEE
21:13:15 <ree> chop chop chop
21:13:17 <ree> slice slice slice
21:13:19 <Talia`> when I turn the machine [all of its drives] off, I actually can get some peace and quiet
21:13:23 <Talia`> hahaha
21:13:31 <Talia`> it doesn't really run that hot
21:13:42 <ree> yeah
21:13:52 <Talia`> the drives on it are real big mothers though....so the cooling fans have to be there
21:13:52 <ree> I don't have any computer equipment other than that lc in my room
21:14:00 <ree> yeah
21:14:08 <ree> I have a 12" fan above my scsi drives
21:14:13 <ree> and those are internals
21:14:18 <Talia`> the drives are big heavy 5.25" size drives
21:14:28 <Talia`> certainly not something feasible for internal installation
21:14:56 <Talia`> yeah...the internals on the SE/30 (also scsi) are normal size drives
21:15:00 <Talia`> and not all that big
21:15:19 <Talia`> which is why I was able to dodge the specs and actually ducktape two internal drives in there
21:15:25 <Talia`> instead of the "official" support for one
21:15:34 <Talia`> ducktape = duct tape
21:15:51 * TheBlueWizard smiles
21:15:56 <ree> ohh ohh
21:15:59 <Talia`> it really wasn't supposed to have more than one hard drive in there.
21:16:06 <ree> tbw is getting turned on by the mention of duct tape
21:16:12 <Talia`> but since it fits...it fits =0
21:16:38 <Talia`> I can't wait to locate drivers for my magneto-optical drive
21:16:42 <Talia`> that should be kind of fun
21:16:49 <Talia`> cheaper than those god-awful ZIP's too
21:16:59 <ree> hehe
21:17:05 * TheBlueWizard laughs....
21:17:07 <ree> unless you find one at the thrift store
21:17:12 * ree likes his
21:17:13 <TheBlueWizard> yup I'm one big HNG :)
21:17:31 <Talia`> haha
21:18:16 <ree> I found the cable I need to connect it to my adaptec pc card recently too
21:18:23 <Talia`> cool
21:18:30 <ree> of all things it was on a external scsi cdrom drive I bought
21:18:33 <Talia`> I wish I had scsi in my g4 system
21:18:37 <ree> it has a special 50pin HD connector
21:18:42 <ree> instead of the 25pin
21:18:45 <Talia`> my se/30 has more ram in it than my g4
21:18:50 <Talia`> that is so sad
21:18:53 <ree> hehe
21:19:13 <ree> now I can read some of the crap someone backed up on these disks
21:19:18 <ree> couldn't do that under the mac
21:19:27 <ree> pc formatted
21:19:39 <Talia`> you can read pc formatted disks on the mac
21:19:45 <ree> yeah
21:19:48 <ree> but not zip disks 
21:19:51 <ree> at least, I can't
21:19:58 <Talia`> hmm...I thought you could :P
21:20:02 <Talia`> using file exchange
21:20:02 <ree> I even have pctomac software
21:20:15 <Talia`> you can run a zip drive on a mac plus, btw
21:20:20 <Talia`> I thought that was funny as hell
21:20:28 <ree> yeah, I bet you can go all the way back
21:20:35 <ree> it works really well on both my lc and quadra
21:20:42 <TheBlueWizard> ree: what type of zip drive are you using? scsi?
21:20:44 <ree> pretty fast actually
21:20:47 <ree> yeah 
21:20:51 <ree> 100mb 
21:20:57 <Talia`> tbw: he would have to, if he is using those old macs
21:21:06 <ree> I got it in a big box of a bunch of stuff
21:21:17 <Talia`> since they don't have a parallel port to speak of and IDE wasn't a twinkle in the mac's eye at the time
21:21:28 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...weird that mac can't read/write scsi zip drive stuff
21:21:32 <Talia`> they were very snobby and very expensive...so scsi was it
21:21:33 <ree> I also got a 2gb version
21:21:35 <ree> called the ditto drive
21:21:43 <ree> but I can't use it because I don't have the software to
21:21:57 <ree> tbw, it can
21:21:59 <Talia`> tbw: well it can...but apparently not the pc formatted disks he speaks of
21:22:02 <TheBlueWizard> ditto? meaning ditto tape drive?
21:22:06 <ree> yeah
21:22:11 <ree> ditto us parallel
21:22:13 <ree> is
21:22:18 <TheBlueWizard> Talia`: I see....still, weird....
21:22:30 <Talia`> to be honest, I don't really use a pc anymore...since all of mine have been dead meat for awhile...so I could never test it out on the old buggers
21:22:31 <ree> I can reformat the disks to mac
21:22:45 <ree> and they work great
21:22:49 <ree> I installed netbsd on one
21:23:08 <Talia`> the mammoth combo 5.25" and 3.5" floppy diskette drive apparently can handle IBM diskettes and Apple II diskettes
21:23:14 <Talia`> I am looking forward to it, despite its great size
21:23:16 <ree> I'd love to use my ditto drive
21:23:19 * TheBlueWizard also has ditto tape drive hehe....Iomega sold ditto stuff to tecmar, which then decides to stop making them...but don't fret....there seems to be some support for it in Linux
21:23:29 <ree> really?
21:23:35 <ree> yeah, I think I saw the support
21:23:42 <ree> do you have the parallel version?
21:23:59 <ree> they seem to be slow
21:24:08 <ree> when I plug it in, it takes a few minutes to seek the tape
21:24:13 <Talia`> well, I will be back in about an hour or two...since I really should have some dinner
21:24:19 <ree> hehe, ok tal
21:24:21 <ree> I might be sleeping
21:24:27 <ree> I need to wake up at 10am tomorrow
21:24:27 <Talia`> if I don't see you guys then, please have a goodnight =)
21:24:32 <ree> night =)
21:24:37 <Talia`> sure thing, pal...please take care =)
21:24:41 <Talia`> if not...I'll see you then =)
21:24:45 <ree> I'd love to see what they backed up on the tape I have
21:24:49 <ree> you too
21:24:53 <Talia`> for your sake...you should be asleep when I return =)
21:25:10 <ree> hehe
21:25:15 <Talia`> ok, tata =)
21:25:25 <ree> later bud
21:25:32 * ree shakes tbw 
21:25:39 <TheBlueWizard> bye ree
21:25:45 <ree> not leaving yet hehe
21:25:52 <TheBlueWizard> ree: yes, parallel
21:25:52 <ree> did you get yours to work?
21:26:33 <TheBlueWizard> I haven't set up ditto to work with Linux.....that's down on my to-do list hehe
21:26:54 <ree> ahh
21:27:04 <ree> have you ever gotten it to work? hehe
21:27:19 <TheBlueWizard> ditto with Win? of course yeah hehe
21:28:38 <ree> how long does it take to start?
21:28:42 <ree> when you plug it in
21:30:09 <TheBlueWizard> hmm...it takes a while to have it read in the TOC (file names, directories), then I set up what to copy (to, from) and then let it run for a while....depending on the total size, it can be anywhere from 15 min to several hours
21:30:25 <ree> ohh
21:30:31 <ree> so it doesn't seek instantly?
21:30:40 <ree> so the tape I have must have some data on it
21:30:45 <ree> I thought it was broken hehe
21:30:53 <ree> but it does eventually stop seeking
21:31:02 <ree> I still haven't used it yet though
21:31:10 <ree> I'd love to backup 2gb to a single tape
21:31:32 <TheBlueWizard> ree: not really....tape is inherently difficult to "instantly seek"
21:31:50 <TheBlueWizard> :)
21:32:00 <ree> hah, yeah
21:32:07 <ree> I'm dumb with tape stuff
21:32:13 <TheBlueWizard> 2g...that's a big stuff to back up to...give it several hours (say 6 hours)
21:32:19 <ree> The document describes the support in Linux for parallel port IDE
21:32:20 <ree> devices.  It does not cover parallel port SCSI devices, "ditto" tape
21:32:20 <ree> drives or scanners.
21:32:33 <ree> I hope they mean the document doesn't describe the ditto drive
21:32:38 <ree> and not the actual support
21:32:54 <TheBlueWizard> ditto isn't real fast, but decent though...at work I use tapes with large capacity, and it takes several hours to backup
21:33:53 <TheBlueWizard> try searching for Linux and ditto using google...that's how I came across some material....didn't bother to record the URL though hehe
21:34:04 <ree> I'm reading the paride.txt file
21:34:15 <ree> which supports ide over the parallel port
21:35:56 <TheBlueWizard> kewl....I am toying with the idea of networking over the parallel port (PLIP)...by losslessly repartitioning the Winblows box so I then install a small Debian Linux then mount the Win partition and use Linux to transfer files over to my laptop, as well as setting up the backup stuff :)
21:36:15 <ree> hehe
21:36:19 <ree> have you checked out freebsd?
21:37:42 <ree> cool, I might try to get it to work
21:37:47 <ree> I can use the ditto on the pc
21:37:58 <ree> really can use it =)
21:38:12 <TheBlueWizard> I once tried to install xBSD (forgot which version...I think it was OpenBSD) on my laptop (before trying Debian Linux), and the boot floppy failed to boot up on it, so I gave up on xBSD and tried Debian Linux, and it worked....so I am now a big fan of Debian Linux :)
21:38:30 <ree> hah
21:38:38 <ree> freebsd is my favorite *nix
21:38:48 <ree> open/net are ok
21:38:54 <ree> but they don't really match the performance
21:39:01 <ree> freebsd even outperforms linux for a few things
21:39:10 <TheBlueWizard> hmm?
21:39:14 <ree> it can even run linux apps up to 20% faster 
21:39:26 <ree> granted they don't use glibc
21:39:52 <ree> though, you might be able to copy over the glib 
21:41:03 <TheBlueWizard> interesting
22:19:54 --- join: ult (ult@1Cust154.tnt1.nashville.tn.da.uu.net) joined #forth
22:21:03 <TheBlueWizard> hiya ult
22:21:07 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o ult
22:21:11 <ree> hey ult
22:21:29 <ult> hoy
22:21:57 <TheBlueWizard> :)
22:26:50 <TheBlueWizard> got to go....bye all!
22:26:54 <ree> later =)
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22:41:26 <I440r> later tbw :)
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