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03:12:18 <jemfinch> I440r: forth looks like some of my old hp48 rpn programs.
03:14:32 <I440r> :)
03:14:38 <I440r> forth uses rpn yes
03:14:59 <I440r> but its a little more powerful than your old calculator
03:14:59 <I440r> erm
03:15:03 <I440r> but do you still have it ?
03:15:04 <I440r> heh
03:15:14 <jemfinch> I have an hp48gx and an hp49.
03:15:17 <I440r> ive been after one of those for years :)
03:15:18 <jemfinch> both still work.
03:15:30 <jemfinch> you can still buy them, you know.
03:15:34 <I440r> u can ?
03:15:37 <I440r> cool heh
03:16:22 <I440r> rpn is confusing at first but when u realise the steps involved without it you see that its a much saner approach
03:16:26 <I440r> 1 + 2 =
03:16:30 <I440r> calculator sees the 1
03:16:48 <I440r> but it doesnt know what it needs to do with it
03:16:52 <I440r> it sees the +
03:17:02 <I440r> aha i gotta add something to the 1 that i got before
03:17:05 <I440r> it sees the 2
03:17:49 * jemfinch is aware of the rpn advocacy :)
03:17:49 <I440r> and it has to remember that it needs to add this and that it needs to add this to the 1 
03:17:49 <I440r> hehe
03:17:49 <jemfinch> if I didn't agree, I'd use a TI calculator -- they're cheaper anyway.
03:17:57 <I440r> forth isnt just rpn with numbers
03:18:04 <I440r> its the same in code
03:18:13 <I440r> rpn is like "no forward references"
03:18:39 <I440r> you use definitions previoulsy defined to help build new definitions
03:18:52 <I440r> but what you can also di
03:18:53 <I440r> do
03:18:59 <I440r> is create words taht CREATE words
03:19:09 <I440r> : constant create , does> @ ;
03:19:16 <I440r> i can now say
03:19:18 <I440r> 0 constant foo
03:19:30 <I440r> and the word foo will be created 
03:19:44 <I440r> the 0 will be stored in the body field of the newly created constant
03:19:44 <I440r> and 
03:19:52 <I440r> when i execute taht constant it will do a @
03:19:58 <I440r> @ is called fetch
03:20:06 <I440r> so foo will fetch the contents of its own body field
03:20:11 <I440r> i.e
03:20:11 <I440r> the 0
03:21:12 <I440r> hehe i can cheat too
03:21:21 <I440r> 5 ' foo >body !
03:21:27 <I440r> now foo will return a 5
03:21:27 <I440r> hehe
03:21:31 <I440r> constants arent :P
03:22:26 <jemfinch> so where's a forth tutorial?
03:22:31 <I440r> hmmm
03:22:51 <I440r> if you got to www.forth.org and look arround there, there are quite a few
03:22:57 <I440r> a good one would be "real time forth"
03:23:05 <I440r> i think its by tim hendtlas or somehting
03:23:11 <I440r> however
03:23:16 <I440r> there are NO real forths for linux
03:23:28 <I440r> and that tutorial is based arround fpc which is for dos
03:23:36 <I440r> i would strongly suggest getting dos :P
03:24:31 <I440r> i learned in fpc
03:24:39 <I440r> its not the best forht there is, its extreeeemly fat
03:24:48 <I440r> but its a great learning tool
03:25:57 <I440r> plus if you hang out in here some of the guys in here (myself included) can help u
03:26:07 <I440r> oh
03:26:11 <I440r> go to your library
03:26:20 <I440r> see if they have leo brodies starting forth
03:26:31 <I440r> also thinking forth 
03:26:31 <I440r> get those out
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05:20:25 <I440r> hi
05:20:26 <AmNeSiA> hmm i dunno forth..maybe i shouldn't come ;)
05:20:34 <I440r> nah 
05:20:41 <I440r> nan doesnt know forth either :)
05:20:45 <AmNeSiA> heh
05:20:46 <I440r> ANYONE is welcome in here
05:20:53 <AmNeSiA> he shouldn't. he is not a number ;)
05:26:07 <I440r> :)
05:26:14 <I440r> ive goit to go do some work now dood,
05:26:23 <I440r> i work from home and i gotta pout in the 8 hours hehe
05:26:27 <I440r> its a contract job...
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15:44:35 <I440r> tcn!
15:44:35 <I440r> hi dood
15:44:40 <tcn> hey mark
15:45:29 <I440r> im getting a cold because this fscking house cant stay warm
15:45:29 <tcn> how goes it?
15:45:29 <I440r> heat comes on
15:45:29 <I440r> it stops
15:45:29 <I440r> it gets cold
15:45:29 <I440r> it stays cold
15:45:29 <I440r> then the heat comes back on
15:45:29 <I440r> and it gets warm...
15:45:29 <I440r> cycling warm cold warm cold
15:45:29 <tcn> hehe
15:45:29 <I440r> no happy medium
15:45:29 <I440r> grrr
15:45:29 <tcn> forced air heat?
15:45:29 <I440r> yea
15:45:31 <tcn> yup, it sucks
15:45:47 <I440r> only when you dont have cold air exchanges
15:45:57 <tcn> steam's good.. and these gas heaters I got here work pretty good too
15:45:59 <I440r> those make forced air work better
15:46:10 <tcn> hehe
15:46:16 <tcn> still fucking dry though
15:46:21 <I440r> yea
15:46:21 <Fare> you mean, keyboard querying, or display capabilities?
15:46:27 <I440r> nothing beats a humongous log fire :)
15:46:38 <I440r> close ennuff fare :)
15:47:55 <I440r> so besides the snow here whats happenin ?
15:48:21 <tcn> fare: input (nonblocking etc.)
15:48:28 <I440r> temp = 6 deg f rite now 
15:48:29 <I440r> grrr
15:48:41 <tcn> i've done a little work w/ VT100 codes & ANSI color too
15:48:51 <I440r> oh yea tcn we shud convert ur code to high level :)
15:49:03 <I440r> i think it would be better as : defs
15:49:07 <tcn> oh yeah, thanks for reminding me
15:49:13 <tcn> what I logged on here for :)
15:49:17 <I440r> hehe
15:50:28 <tcn> you mean : defs in nasm, or metacompiled?
15:50:34 <I440r> nasm
15:50:43 <I440r> using me macros
15:50:56 <I440r> so i can steal ur code :P
15:51:32 <tcn> heh
15:51:48 <tcn> i'm gonna scrap that perl thing.. it's pretty useless
15:52:03 <I440r> actually with what uve given me so far i coudl convert it to : defs myself heh
15:52:07 <I440r> what perl thing ?
15:52:08 <tcn> could do it in forth, but I think i'll just use dd's
15:53:01 <tcn> i wrote a perl (sucks!) script to preprocess the .asm file, converting normal-looking forth code to dd's
15:53:22 <I440r> aha
15:53:31 <tcn> but it would need to parse numbers and crap too
15:53:52 <tcn> in order to fulfill its purpose
15:54:37 <tcn> so what the hell.. i'll use plain NASM to bootstrap it, just enough words to metacompile itself
15:55:28 <I440r> :)
15:55:28 <tcn> we could also compile some high-level stuff from a text file.. even append the text file to the executable
15:55:50 <tcn> read ELF header, get file size, skip past, interpret
15:56:55 <I440r> hrm
15:58:46 <tcn> it would save on dd's
16:01:04 <I440r> erm
16:01:09 <I440r> u lost me 
16:01:59 <tcn> umm.. instead of defining everything in the assembler, compile them when isforth starts up
16:02:21 <I440r> u mean extend at run time
16:02:27 <tcn> yeah
16:04:42 <I440r> hmmm
16:04:58 <I440r> forht would compiler  in an instant anyway
16:05:06 <I440r> so tahts a viable option
16:05:40 <tcn> yeah.. I want to keep the NASM part to a minimum
16:06:25 <I440r> well
16:07:05 <I440r> the nasm part is temporary
16:07:05 <tcn> yeah
16:07:05 <I440r> will convert the sources to forth coded defs and : defs later
16:07:08 <I440r> ahd have it meta compile it
16:07:59 <tcn> maybe we shouldn't even use an assembler, just machine code and forth
16:08:18 <tcn> factored machine code ;)
16:09:02 <Fare> what else than forth-factored machine code is a forth assembler?
16:10:27 <tcn> it's extra stuff to write
16:10:43 <I440r> hehe
16:11:10 <tcn> and it won't see much use in the kernel
16:11:24 <Fare> it's about maintainability
16:11:37 <Fare> and can be factored out by a metacompiler, if needed
16:12:16 <tcn> hehe.. where I had some difficulties with my assembler, I just hand-coded
16:12:21 <I440r> erm
16:12:27 <I440r> u guys have lost me again :P
16:13:32 <tcn> assemblers always have some shortcomings and you just have to use DB
16:14:22 <Fare> tcn: or extend the assembler
16:14:42 <I440r> erm no
16:14:58 <I440r> i would add the db to the assembler :)
16:16:00 <tcn> hehe.. sometimes it's quicker to just do without an assembler
16:16:09 <tcn> c,
16:16:31 <I440r> ur fired :P
16:17:03 <tcn> what do you think of postfix assemblers?
16:18:04 <I440r> u mean
16:18:09 <I440r> ax # 5 mov ?
16:18:12 <I440r> dont like enm
16:18:15 <I440r> they confuze me
16:18:26 <I440r> that would be 5 # ax mov
16:20:08 <tcn> lisp assembler, on the other hand, would be ok
16:20:17 <tcn> (mov ax 5)
16:20:39 <tcn> nah
16:20:45 <I440r> erm 
16:20:45 <I440r> no
16:20:50 <I440r> mov ax, 5
16:21:00 <tcn> then you'd have crap like (mov '[esp+12] eax)
16:22:02 <tcn> and the code for MOV would have to look at each argument, say "is it a number or a string? parse the string.."
16:22:55 <tcn> I think the win32forth assembler handles normal syntax
16:23:05 <I440r> erm
16:23:15 <I440r> the win 32 forth assembler is a redo of the fpc assembler
16:23:21 <tcn> oh
16:23:21 <I440r> they never could get that right with 32 bit
16:23:26 <I440r> i THINK it is
16:23:29 <I440r> i could be wrong there
16:23:37 <tcn> it's the same guy
16:23:41 <I440r> my dad did some work on the fpc assembler
16:23:45 <I440r> to make it 32 bit
16:24:01 <I440r> they could never figure out the difference between the two different types of size override
16:24:07 <I440r> operand size etc
16:24:11 <tcn> I did that with the Pygmy assembler
16:24:14 <I440r> they used the wrong one in places heeh
16:24:20 <tcn> heh
16:24:27 <I440r> isforth will have its own assembler
16:25:40 <I440r> tho it will prolly be
16:25:40 <I440r> 5 # ax mov :P
16:25:40 <tcn> I say, have each instruction parse the text after it, don't take stack args
16:26:10 <I440r> that would work
16:26:10 <tcn> use [xxxx] for memory reference, and maybe (xxx) to parse forth (instead of using infix math)
16:26:23 <I440r> mov would parse the ax, see the # and the 5 and construct the corret opciode
16:26:26 <tcn> or even add an infix parser
16:26:37 <I440r> it would prolly have to be [ xxxx ]
16:26:53 <tcn> no
16:27:09 <I440r> yes
16:27:18 <tcn> just scan each character in the input buffer
16:27:22 <I440r> mov eax, [ ebx + 4 * ecx ]
16:27:28 <I440r> oh
16:27:36 <I440r> i see what you mean
16:28:00 <I440r> totally un forth like hehe
16:28:01 <tcn> use a subroutine..  : parse-args ( #args -- )
16:28:16 <tcn> no
16:28:36 <tcn> that's bad.. have 2 subroutines, 1arg and 2arg
16:28:57 <tcn> 2arg looks for a comma
16:28:57 <I440r> first arg/second arg ?
16:29:02 <I440r> oh ok
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16:29:06 <tcn> : inc 1arg ... ;
16:29:10 <tcn> : mov 2arg ... ;
16:29:20 <I440r> first arg would call word with ',' as the delimiter
16:29:33 <I440r> hrm
16:29:44 <I440r> arg1 would have to delimit on space or comma
16:29:45 <tcn> hmm.. some instructions take 1-3 args
16:30:22 <tcn> i'd like to match NASM syntax pretty closely
16:31:29 <tcn> except I'd allow this:  mov eax,[esp+8]; shl eax,2; push eax
16:31:42 <tcn> ignore whitespace
16:31:46 <Fare> I'd rather have the mov be a declaration that gets compiled by the metacompiler into the right parsing routine and/or atomic instruction, depending on context
16:31:57 <tcn> you lost me fare
16:32:12 <Fare> well, you have a file that declares instructions and modes and so on
16:32:42 <Fare> it gets loaded by a metacompiler that compiles a word MOV in a proper dictionary that does the job of your postfix assembler
16:33:17 <Fare> and the metacompiler also defines a MOV in another dictionary that does the prefix assembler thing
16:33:47 <tcn> oh, do both?
16:34:35 <tcn> and both are based on the same source file
16:36:50 <tcn> nice idea but it won't be necessary for what we're doing
16:38:05 <tcn> the first rule of forth club is, don't over-generalize
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16:41:38 <I440r> hehe
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16:46:51 <I440r> wb :P
16:47:17 <tcn> is he really here?
16:47:25 <Talia`> thanks!
16:47:37 <Talia`> if you any of you ever decide to buy a new mac, make sure you get enough memory
16:47:40 <Talia`> new = newish
16:47:53 <Talia`> you will be very sorry otherwise
16:47:54 <Talia`> :P
16:48:11 <Talia`> tcn: yes, I believe I am here...if it is me you are referring to =)
16:49:46 <tcn> is there anything good about a mac?
16:49:49 <Talia`> pardon my bad usage of grammar
16:49:55 <Talia`> yes, the applications
16:50:11 <Talia`> the applications are often very strong and robust...it's the operating system that generally sucks
16:50:12 <Talia`> =)
16:50:29 <tcn> don't all the apps cost big bucks?
16:50:30 <Talia`> oh, the hardware support is very good too if you are into music and sound work
16:50:34 <Talia`> yes, they do, unfortunately
16:50:48 <Talia`> but in my opinion, there is little out there that compares accordingly
16:50:57 <tcn> amigas..
16:51:00 <Fare> tcn: anything good about a mac? longer battery life, I'd say (for a laptop)
16:51:04 <Talia`> for music work....the mac is really the only machine around if you deal with commercial music systems
16:51:05 <Fare> that's about all
16:51:25 <Talia`> fare: nah...the hardware really is quite nice...although proprietary
16:51:28 <Fare> but then, just you buy an extra batteries for your PC, and it's still cheaper
16:51:41 <Talia`> well
16:51:51 <Fare> Talia: mac hardware, nice? It's crap. The processor is about the only nice thing.
16:52:03 <tcn> maybe being proprietary makes it fit better
16:52:03 <Talia`> the one thing a mac has, which may change soon though, is that a mac can often run software that is five years newer than itself
16:52:18 <tcn> albeit slowly :(
16:52:19 <Talia`> so, the longevity is a factor one should consider when buying hardware "for life"
16:52:24 <Talia`> well, it isn't all that bad
16:52:32 <Talia`> not nearly as drastic as I encountered on PC's
16:53:40 <Fare> Talia: my 1993 P75 runs vintage'2000 Linux pretty well
16:53:40 <tcn> ahh, it's like running windows 2000 and access 2000 on a P166. It works fine.
16:53:40 <Talia`> it's more due to the development cycle that the PC developers put it through more than the computer itself though
16:53:40 <tcn> my employers are too cheap to get something newer than a P166 for the new programmer
16:53:40 <Talia`> fare: but, keep in mind Linux was designed to be moderately lean and efficient
16:53:40 <Fare> (no, it's 1995, actually)
16:53:40 <Talia`> and to allow those on a shoestring to keep their computers in the game
16:53:53 <Talia`> and I think it's proven that they don't need to sacrifice much to do that, either
16:54:18 <Fare> I run a full 3 GB of debian bloat on it
16:54:19 <Talia`> but when you have a commercial operating system that has a commercial budget schedule, and apps that follow accordingly...then it's a bit different
16:54:21 <Fare> with bloated glibc, kernel 2.2, etc
16:54:43 <Talia`> yes...but it's still pretty lean when you get down to it
16:54:45 <tcn> heh.. with forth and asm, the only thing that can make a computer obsolete is it falling apart
16:55:26 <tcn> So...
16:55:48 <Talia`> I think it's commendable when software written ten years ago still functions pretty well on modern machines, and stuff five years newer still runs properly on an older machine
16:56:04 <Talia`> when you run a commercial "cutting edge" OS such as Mac OS or Windows
16:56:08 <Talia`> and note...I use "cutting edge" very loosely
16:56:26 <I440r> hehe
16:56:26 <Talia`> indicating the pace at which they decide to jump the gun and ask you to buy a new computer for proper performance
16:56:59 <tcn> christ, I hate writing commercial software
16:57:13 <Talia`> yup =)
16:57:13 <Fare> tcn: are you?
16:57:27 <tcn> less these days.. 
16:57:33 <Talia`> the reason I run macs is purely for my music....and for music...the mac is completely unparalleled for professional hardware and software support
16:57:42 <Talia`> at least at this time
16:57:42 <tcn> more internal software, which is fine
16:57:48 <Talia`> tcn: if I may ask, what kind of software do you work on for the commercial market?>
16:58:21 <tcn> database stuff.. a tiny niche market
16:59:25 <Talia`> neat
16:59:48 <Talia`> I don't know a damn thing about databases
16:59:53 <Talia`> about how they work, I mean
16:59:57 <tcn> there are $20,000+ client-server programs for logistics analysis. We sell a cheap Access-based thing :)
17:00:18 <Talia`> if I wrote a database, I would probably be so stupid as to write one that uses a bubble-sort for the majority of its operations
17:00:25 <Talia`> wow, sounds exclusive =)
17:00:31 <tcn> so someone can buy one $20,000 do-everything program, and 30 of ours for the every-day data manipulation
17:00:37 <I440r> heheh
17:00:40 <tcn> hahahaha
17:01:44 <Fare> Talia: my composer friends use PCs
17:02:05 <tcn> hey, if you can afford a mac, and music equipment, a PC is pocket change
17:02:34 <Talia`> Fare: what programs do they use for their work?
17:02:53 <tcn> fare: and what OS?
17:02:53 <Fare> my friend just bought a PCI card with 6 Sharc DSPs for some FRF 8000.
17:03:05 <Fare> tcn: a horrible OS that takes over 24 hours to fully install.
17:03:13 <Talia`> NT =)
17:03:19 <tcn> hehe
17:03:28 <Talia`> fare: sounds like extended Csound, almost
17:03:34 <Fare> tcn: well, I said horrible and was right, but I'm not sure about "OS".
17:03:44 <Fare> Talia: no, just Win98, on a SCSI system.
17:03:47 <Talia`> hehe, oh :D
17:04:06 <Talia`> fare: what programs does he use on the PC for most of his music work>
17:04:24 <Fare> Talia: Cubase, I presume, plus other stuff to manage the sounds.
17:04:32 <I440r> me gona go print out isforth and refresh aging memory cells...
17:04:39 <tcn> hehe
17:04:48 <Fare> I440r: print out????
17:04:53 <I440r> yes
17:05:11 <I440r> can see more source at once that way
17:05:11 <I440r> get more context
17:05:19 <Talia`> fare: I can't really afford macs either...that's why I have the "nice" one I bought last year and a slew of very very old macs for my obsolete programs
17:05:33 <Talia`> and I also spend time with yesterday's best hardware, and today's very "misunderstood" items
17:06:09 * Fare would love a 1GHz Alpha running OpenGenera
17:06:09 <Talia`> since I like digital synthesizers better than the analogues people adore right now...it keeps it cheaper than it could have been
17:06:31 <tcn> heh
17:06:32 <Talia`> the thing is....PC's really don't have very good support for a lot of items that the mac has had for years
17:06:37 <Fare> however, the OpenGenera license alone costs as much as the best Alpha hardware that can run it.
17:06:56 <Fare> Talia: like?
17:07:19 <Fare> Talia: like a system that thinks it's more intelligent than you are?
17:07:29 <Talia`> e.g. MOTU, OMS, HMSL, etc.
17:07:47 <tcn> can't say I feel your pain talia... I'm playing pretty much acoustic instruments now
17:07:47 <Fare> Talia: like a system that's not meant to be scripted, except as a non-documented afterthought?
17:07:57 <Talia`> fare: I acknowledge that the OS sucks
17:07:59 <Fare> like a system that comes with no dev tools by default?
17:08:03 <Talia`> don't confuse me with a "mac addict" of any kind
17:08:06 <tcn> why get a Mac and MIDI stuff when I could get a Stradivarius
17:08:25 <Fare> a system where the I/O chips emulate 8-bit I/O hardware from 6800 time?
17:08:43 <tcn> haha
17:08:43 <Talia`> tcn: hah, because I would rather play a Kurzweil Midiboard hooked up to an array of Fourier synthesizers with an editor I made myself
17:08:58 <Fare> Talia: try OpenMusic, one day
17:09:00 <Talia`> fare: the 68000 emulation is done entirely in software
17:09:10 <Talia`> why?
17:09:13 <tcn> talia: you wrote an editor?
17:09:20 <Fare> (darn, it currently only runs on MCL)
17:09:20 <Talia`> no, but I am working out one
17:09:38 <Fare> Talia: no, I mean emulation for 68xx IO chips
17:09:49 <tcn> I started a midi editor once
17:09:53 <Talia`> neat
17:10:09 <Talia`> yeah, mine is a voicing editor to replace a very old obsolete editor written for the Apple II
17:10:10 <Fare> just like a PC has emulation for 85xx chips
17:10:11 <tcn> fare: PC's still emulate 68xx era chips too
17:10:16 <tcn> hahahhaha :)
17:10:18 <Talia`> for the synthesizer I use
17:10:37 <tcn> apple II, wow
17:10:37 <Talia`> which is a wicked cool synthesizer...but the Apple II is an achilles' heel to say the least =)
17:11:02 <Fare> My fav' game is still "Lode Runner Championship" on my Apple ][ emulator
17:11:10 <Talia`> I feel a total rewrite is warranted, and would be enough to inject some popularity into the machine again
17:11:34 <Talia`> yeah, I wish I was using computers at that time
17:11:38 <tcn> which machine?
17:12:44 <Talia`> tcn: 68020 and 68030 macs, powerpc macs, and maybe a simple and portable command line implementation for Linux
17:12:53 <Talia`> I am working on the 68K version first
17:13:15 <Talia`> since it embodies all most of the function and code that will be used in the other versions, so I figured it would be a good starting point
17:13:50 <tcn> GUI's suck in linux
17:14:08 <tcn> X. gotta love it
17:14:15 <Talia`> I know, hence why I will stay away from it if I can help it =)
17:14:35 <Talia`> Fare: one of the reasons I chose Mac was primarily because I wanted to use MOTU components
17:14:59 <Talia`> it also helps that I was able to get the SDK's for most of their hardware and software...so it doesn't hurt
17:16:04 <Talia`> there is also a lot of neat old/obsolete software that will simply not run on modern machines or would be a total waste to try to run them on modern machines
17:16:06 <Talia`> so I have a bunch of old macs just setup for running all that gunk
17:16:12 <Fare> MOTU ?
17:16:17 <Fare> what's MOTU ?
17:16:50 <Fare> music fans I know all wanted an Atari, not a Mac.
17:16:51 <Talia`> My Emulator II editor (the original sound designer)...HMSL...M....MusicMouse...the slew of MIDI stream diagnostic and stream editing programs...ec.
17:17:02 <tcn> hehe.. sounds like me and my 386.. I run old DOS trackers on it
17:17:04 <Talia`> Mark of The Unicorn
17:17:15 <Talia`> well, I don't know why people wanted Atari's personally
17:17:25 <Fare> more bang per buck
17:17:27 <Talia`> jsut because it has a built-in MIDI port, doesn't mean the hardware was suitable for music =)
17:17:42 <Talia`> well, at today's going prices...you can get an old mac and some software for the same price
17:17:56 <Talia`> and it will do a lot more than the Atari will...and performance/timing will be a lot better as well
17:18:01 <Talia`> at least that is my opinion
17:18:10 <Fare> A cheap PC will be even better.
17:18:18 <Talia`> I think the Amiga was a good music platform
17:18:23 <Talia`> it had a lot of good stuff going for it
17:18:38 <Talia`> too bad :P
17:18:55 <Talia`> aa very large chunk of what was out there for the Mac originally came over from Atari
17:18:58 <Talia`> at one point or another
17:19:01 <Fare> Free architecture, good. Proprietary architecture, bad.
17:19:12 <Talia`> well...I am talking at the Atari's prices
17:19:12 <Fare> The freeer, the better.
17:19:16 <Talia`> let's say $150
17:19:39 <Talia`> which is the average going price for the standard Atari found in studios...the 1040ST
17:20:14 <Fare> Everyone has a PC for internet connectivity, anyway
17:20:14 <Talia`> for that price, one could get an acceptably equipped Mac IIfx or a very well equipped SE/30
17:20:19 <Talia`> well, I am ignoring internet connectivity
17:20:19 <Fare> so the marginal price is 0.
17:20:27 <Talia`> let's pretend we are just buying a machine specifically for music
17:20:32 <Talia`> because if internet connectivity is what we want
17:20:40 <Talia`> the Mac will run circles around an Atari any day =)
17:20:44 <Fare> It costs me 0 because I got my PC.
17:21:04 <Talia`> true...but we are speaking of people who are looking for a very cheap $150 music computer
17:21:16 <Fare> Talia: an Atari Falcon will kick the ass out of your Mac Plus.
17:21:18 <Talia`> I don't know many PC's that could provide the kind of software and hardware support that the mac does
17:21:21 <Talia`> except the Amiga for that price
17:21:27 <tcn> a 386-486 would go for $150 :)
17:21:38 <tcn> or free
17:21:39 <Talia`> tcn: basically, yeah =)
17:21:56 <Talia`> fare: that's true...but I can get Macintosh Plus' for $10
17:22:11 <tcn> the price I paid for my current 386 was taking it off his hands :)
17:22:14 <Talia`> for $150, I can get a machine that will tear any Atari to shreds =)
17:22:27 <Talia`> tcn: hah, or he paid you  =)
17:22:48 <tcn> i know someone who's got a pcjr in her attic..
17:22:54 <Talia`> haha, I have one of those
17:22:58 <Talia`> it worked up until a month ago
17:23:05 <Talia`> when I booted it up, and no longer came up like it used to
17:23:06 <Talia`> oh well =)
17:23:13 <tcn> eprom's must be losing their smoke
17:23:19 <Talia`> *shrug*
17:23:34 <Fare> Talia: the Mac plus is not worth the time to find and fetch it, or even the gas to transport it
17:23:34 <tcn> they're designed for 10-20 year lifespan
17:23:34 <Talia`> I tried tearing out every one of them replacing it with a duplicate I had hanging around, no luck
17:23:47 <Talia`> fare: actually, you can do a fare amount with a Mac Plus
17:23:59 <tcn> heheh
17:24:19 <Fare> my mom has a PowerBook 140 (or 145?) whose disk looks like it crashed, and whose batteries are dead.
17:24:34 <Talia`> I have successfully networked one, run an ancient version of MOTU Performer on it...MOTUProfessional Composer...HMSL....Music Mouse...etc.
17:24:47 <Fare> Macs are sooooo undermemoried and underdisked
17:24:50 <Talia`> you can check your email on it, if you want
17:24:53 <Fare> (and overpriced)
17:24:57 <Fare> (and undercached)
17:25:04 <Fare> (and underclocked)
17:25:14 <Talia`> well...overpriced...sure...when they are made in the last five years....yes
17:25:18 <Fare> (and underOSed)
17:25:21 <Talia`> after five years...the price drops like a rock
17:25:27 <tcn> like mil-spec machines!
17:25:29 <Talia`> they because so cheap...any ghetto operation could afford one
17:25:40 <Talia`> OS'ed? the older Mac OS for its time wasn't bad
17:25:47 <Talia`> today...yes...it sucks by today's standards FOR SURE
17:25:49 <Fare> it really sucked
17:25:52 <Fare> it still sucks
17:26:05 <tcn> nothing like windows
17:26:10 <Talia`> but back when System 6 and early System 7 (e.g,. 7.1.1) was popular...it that bad
17:26:15 <Talia`> windows was far worse
17:26:23 <tcn> and keeps getting worse
17:26:25 <Talia`> and DOS was pretty rudimentary in some ways as well
17:26:27 <Fare> tcn: I much prefer Windows 3.1 to System 6 or 7.
17:26:37 <Fare> tcn: except for the filename limitation, that is
17:26:48 <Talia`> fare: well, I could care less about filename limitations
17:26:53 <Fare> not that the 31-char mac filename limitation doesn't deeply annoy me, either
17:26:53 <tcn> ok, 95 was 'ok'
17:27:00 <Talia`> the 8 to 3 limitation never really bothered me like some people
17:27:14 <tcn> 31 chars is too long, fare
17:27:26 <Fare> tcn: tell that to my MP3 collection
17:27:36 <Talia`> I would have to say I would take system 6 or 7 over 3.1...just for music reasons
17:27:47 <Talia`> but then again, I wouldn't run mac if I didn't do music
17:27:47 <Talia`> =)
17:27:52 <tcn> fare: that's what subdirectories are for
17:27:52 <Fare> tcn: I can't have my mac just mount my NFS and play the MP3s.
17:27:56 <Talia`> or if I did...I would be running Black Lab Linux or NetBSD
17:28:25 <Fare> how does that suck, for a "music" machine?
17:28:35 <Fare> the ergonomy of it plain sucks
17:28:39 <tcn> netbsd sucks
17:28:39 <tcn> i tried it
17:28:54 <Fare> I've never loved macs as much as when I was away from them
17:29:07 <Fare> then my mom got a mac, and another, and now I truly hate them.
17:29:24 <Talia`> my Macintosh SE/30 from 1989 is running 6 hard drives....two internal and four external....an external CDROM drove...a 128M MO drive...has 80M of memory...and a total disk space of about 3.8G
17:29:25 <tcn> thank god apple is dead
17:29:33 <Fare> the worse is that it *pretends* to be good
17:29:35 <Talia`> I think that's fantastic for a machine from 1989
17:29:42 <tcn> wow
17:30:02 <tcn> se/30 means 68030?
17:30:04 <Talia`> oh, yeah...is networked as well
17:30:06 <Talia`> tcn: yes
17:30:10 <Talia`> no accelerators
17:30:12 <Fare> Talia: my PC from 1991 had 5 harddrives at one point.
17:30:18 <tcn> that's a good 32-bit processor, way ahead of intel
17:30:27 <Talia`> well...SE/30 was basically a Mac II in a compact case
17:30:46 <tcn> Mac OS just makes it look slow
17:30:47 <Talia`> fare: yes, but I bet you didn't have 3.8G of disk space and 80M of RAM =0
17:30:58 <tcn> what's an SE/30 clocked at?
17:31:07 <Talia`> I am not bragging about my hardware, since ANYONE can build one comparable to mine
17:31:10 <Talia`> 16 MHz =)
17:31:15 <Talia`> that isn't so hot, but its tolerable
17:31:33 <Fare> Talia: my next computer with 128M of RAM cost less than just your 80M of RAM upgrade.
17:31:48 <Talia`> $30?
17:31:56 <Talia`> that is cheap
17:32:08 <Talia`> let me know where you got it
17:32:09 <Talia`> I want one too =)
17:32:51 <Talia`> all kidding aside, I don't mean to be an asshole
17:32:51 <Talia`> I am just having a pleasant discussion
17:33:03 <Fare> so are we :)
17:33:20 <Talia`> =)
17:33:20 <tcn> fare's a smart ass, he knows you're just kidding :)
17:33:24 <Fare> So when do massive clusters of MISC machines conquer the world?
17:33:54 <Fare> Talia: you ain't got a LispM, anyway!
17:33:57 <tcn> uhhh.. when people get bored with computers?
17:34:11 <Fare> neeners neeners!
17:34:14 <Talia`> don't get me wrong
17:34:25 <Talia`> I am not as much of a crazed mac fan as you think I am
17:34:35 <Fare> http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html
17:34:36 <Talia`> I just respect macs for certain capabilities they have and certain support they have
17:34:52 <Talia`> beyond that, I might as well be using a PC
17:34:57 <Fare> I used to be a Mac fan... before I owned one.
17:35:03 <Talia`> haha, which one did you own?
17:35:34 <Fare> PowerBook 140 (or 145), then PowerBook G3 series.
17:35:52 <Fare> hateful hardware, hateful software, hateful price.
17:36:06 <Fare> I feel like I've been conned. Twice.
17:36:07 <Talia`> I am not sure why you don't like the Mac Plus
17:36:15 <tcn> I think I started with a mac, about the same time the other half of my family got a PC.. I gravitated toward that..
17:36:32 <Talia`> go to this address....
17:36:32 <Fare> I liked the Mac Plus... at the time I saw it at a friend's.
17:36:32 <Talia`> macplus.schoolvision.com
17:36:43 <Fare> But I prefer the Apple ][ I had at the time.
17:36:53 <Talia`> for a computer from 1986...it can be easily upgraded to 4M of ram...and has SCSI (although not all that fast)
17:37:08 <Talia`> I liked the Apple IIc+
17:37:22 <tcn> Commodores had much better graphics
17:37:30 <Fare> Talia: and cost so much it doesn't matter much.
17:37:45 <Talia`> I always respected the Commodore...more so since I don't seem to know anything about them =)
17:37:52 <Fare> tcn: there's one thing commodores NEVER understood, and it is mass storage.
17:37:58 <Talia`> well, it ran about $2699 or so
17:38:08 <Talia`> if I remember the "historical gunk" from some gunk page
17:38:16 <Talia`> which in those days, is pretty expensive
17:38:18 <Talia`> =)
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17:38:23 <Fare> the rest about commodores was great (except they lost the price war against Atari)
17:38:35 <Fare> gunk?
17:39:15 <Talia`> yeah, gunk....like unidentified globules of "stuff"....whatever that may be...
17:39:36 <Talia`> as least that's how I understood the word =)
17:39:58 <Talia`> I still like Kaypro 2X
17:40:24 <Talia`> it really doesn't help me with much, except maybe just bashing around in the terminal emulator
17:40:35 <Talia`> makes a nice unix terminal =)
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17:40:42 <Talia`> if you can tolerate 9600 baud
17:40:43 <Talia`> =)
17:41:56 <Talia`> luggable computers are really neat
17:42:07 <Talia`> Mac Portable =)
17:42:17 <Talia`> the only sixteen pound "laptop" I know of
17:42:28 <Talia`> has basically a car battery strapped to the bottom
17:42:34 <Talia`> gives it about 8 hours of battery life, though
17:42:49 <Talia`> so, I have mixed feelings about how useful that might be =)
17:43:16 <tcn> hehehe.. win2k's console (on a 400mhz machine) could only handle about 4800 baud
17:43:28 <Talia`> is that a joke?
17:43:50 <tcn> I swear to god it's true
17:44:07 <tcn> unless you want a tiny screen and a tiny font
17:44:09 <Talia`> god...the reason why this machine can't do much more is because the display hardware is so crude that is loses characters...the actual machine isn't losing anything...just the display hardware
17:44:31 <Talia`> if it hadn't been for the display hardware...the kaypro could handle the full speed of the serial port (19.2K)
17:44:33 <tcn> I like about 90x40 filling the whole screen, not 80x24 5 inches wide
17:44:34 <Talia`> that's kind of sad
17:45:07 <Talia`> a computer from 1984 performs better as a terminal :P
17:45:23 <tcn> I think it's a combination of NT bureaucracy and emulating memory-mapped video
17:45:31 <Talia`> 9" monochome, with green text...two 5.25" drives...64K of RAM
17:45:43 <Talia`> got to love the [lack of] power
17:45:48 <Talia`> tcn: jeez
17:45:50 <tcn> EWAN telnet performs more like an Xterm
17:46:04 <Talia`> I thought the mac terminal programs were crummy
17:46:04 <Talia`> :P
17:46:20 <Talia`> I always thought windos had a better set of terminal programs
17:46:24 <Talia`> and telnet programs
17:46:36 <tcn> oh it does.. 3rd party
17:46:41 <Talia`> yeah :P
17:46:47 <Talia`> windos = windows
17:46:52 <tcn> and each one has to do its own console routines
17:47:20 <Talia`> what's the point of an API system you can easily get lost in if it doesn't even help you?
17:47:22 <Talia`> :P
17:47:25 <tcn> either that, or switch to text mode
17:47:40 <Talia`> but then again
17:47:44 <Talia`> that's the new mac os systems too
17:47:49 <Talia`> so, ditto on that
17:47:59 <tcn> hehe.. does it have CORBA and COM+ and all that crap? ODBC?
17:48:02 <Talia`> I think things starting falling apart after mac os 8.1
17:48:11 <Talia`> not just sort of...like really falling apart
17:48:19 <tcn> no doubt
17:48:25 <Talia`> they phased out ODBC
17:48:29 <Talia`> a couple years ago
17:48:47 <Talia`> the rest I don't believe it has, unless it goes by another name
17:50:24 <tcn> does ODBC on the mac mean 'open database connectivity'? 
17:50:33 <Talia`> yes
17:50:44 <tcn> hmm.. windblows is still using it
17:50:54 <tcn> it's a M$ thing btw
17:50:55 <Talia`> I hope that's why they used the word "open"
17:51:07 <Talia`> otherwise it might as well be WDBC
17:51:12 <Talia`> :P
17:51:18 <tcn> hehe.. jwz.org/gruntle/hot.html
17:51:19 <Talia`> yeah, let me check on the SDK for it
17:51:26 <Talia`> I think I probably have it here somewhere
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17:52:07 <tcn> actually there's odbc for unix now
17:52:14 <Talia`> mind if I cut an paste an excerpt of the description file to you?
17:52:22 <tcn> and jdbc... a horrible thing
17:52:29 <tcn> go ahead
17:53:10 <Talia`> while I have nearly all of the SDK's locally, I downloaded that out of Apple's obsolete_unsupported folder a couple months ago
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17:53:25 <Talia`> that = them
17:53:30 <Talia`> err.nm
17:53:53 <tcn> problem w/ odbc is, you need an ODBC driver _for_ your database server but _running_ on your client machine
17:54:11 <Talia`> yeah, I wouldn't know anything about that
17:54:25 <Talia`> but as far as I can tell, it didn't sound too appealing or elegant
17:54:30 <Talia`> with as little as I knew about it
17:54:31 <tcn> it sucks
17:55:45 <tcn> ok, it lets you run a real open source unix-based server, and have windows users access it from Access, VB programs, etc, even assembly programs I just discovered today
17:56:13 <Talia`> that doesn't all bad
17:56:22 <Talia`> what's the kink, beyond what you already mentioned?
17:56:26 <tcn> it's based on SQL
17:56:30 <tcn> SQL sucks
17:56:33 <Talia`> =)
17:56:48 <Talia`> another thing that didn't sound too elegant, but also I didn't know anything about
17:56:50 <tcn> there's a standard for it but nobody reads it quite the same way
17:57:00 <Talia`> sounds like every standard I know =)
17:57:35 <tcn> ODBC _could_ have been ONE protocol, like your internet protocols
17:57:40 <Talia`> I love reading the original document and begin working through the revised editions that came later
17:57:49 <Talia`> for many of these really nifty protocols
17:57:50 <tcn> but being based on SQL, it's a lost cause
17:58:11 <Talia`> and watch them evolve into an unfathomable beast of adhoc modifications and incompatibilities
17:58:26 <Talia`> I usually get tired of reading once I leave the second revision
17:58:27 <tcn> heh.. you read the old specs for IP, ICMP, TCP, etc..?
17:58:33 <Talia`> yeah...some of it
17:58:39 <tcn> they're nic
17:58:40 <tcn> e
17:58:40 <Talia`> it's a real shame
17:58:44 <Talia`> they were clean once
17:59:04 <Talia`> I didn't think a protocol like MIDI could be obfuscated
17:59:05 <tcn> they had diagrams of every packet.. explanations in ENGLISH
17:59:08 <Talia`> but I was wrong about that too
17:59:17 <Talia`> yeah
17:59:33 <tcn> one thing about the US military: they're better than the corporations
17:59:50 <tcn> they should take over Wall St. ;)
17:59:56 <Talia`> but more than that, the original designers made sure they kept it fundamental in a sense...so it all hung together...no real loose parts once you got some essential concepts down
18:00:06 <Talia`> I don't see anyone making any effort to do that nowadays
18:00:18 <Talia`> I guess that's what we call "technological progress"
18:00:31 <tcn> "competition"
18:00:36 <Talia`> where even the people who designed the protocols don't recognize it anymore
18:00:44 <tcn> typical ;)
18:00:53 <Talia`> one of the reasons TCP/IP was so grand was that it ditched proprietary solutions
18:01:03 <Talia`> tell me that is still the protocol's credo =)
18:01:55 <tcn> if you mean TCP, UDP and IP, yeah
18:01:56 <Talia`> and even many of the layers on top of it
18:01:56 <tcn> HTTP.. uhh.. uhbhhhh
18:02:16 <Talia`> it's gotten to the point that the protocol is too focused on solutions only available to a limited number of "high profit margin" platforms
18:02:21 <Talia`> and nothing else
18:02:24 <Talia`> what's the point?
18:03:01 <Talia`> it might as well be the 70's again, and I should buy a network full of IBM machines...
18:03:04 <tcn> berners-lee fucked everything up
18:03:08 <tcn> IBM hahahahahahahhahahaha
18:03:09 <Talia`> or DEC...or whatever...
18:03:24 <Talia`> that's about as compatible as it is becoming anyway
18:03:59 <tcn> from my understanding DEC was ok, at least for hardware.. actually VMS had some nice things.. but IBM, jesus christ they sucked
18:04:09 <Talia`> in the MIDI standard...there is even a discrepancy between manufacturers on which number to start the first program
18:04:14 <Talia`> some say '0' and others say '1'
18:04:16 <Talia`> amazing
18:04:18 <tcn> yup
18:04:23 --- quit: Fare (Connection reset by pear)
18:04:29 <Talia`> it's so ridiculous...
18:04:39 <tcn> and there's a "new improved MIDI" right?
18:04:53 <Talia`> well, the MIDI spec hasn't been revised in awhile
18:05:05 <Talia`> and all of my gear is basically ten years old except the power mac
18:05:08 <Talia`> so I don't keep up with recent revisions
18:05:11 <tcn> sorta like IPv6.. if we didn't have all these lamers on here 32 bit addresses would be enough forever
18:05:23 <Talia`> lame people...like me =)
18:05:46 <Talia`> well yeah....years ago...a method should have been worked out to overcome MIDI's bandwidth and channel assignment problems
18:06:07 <Talia`> and I think it could have been easily in a fashion that allowed compatibility with older midi hardware through adapter/junction boxes
18:06:13 <tcn> it is kinda inefficent.. especially the CC's
18:06:51 <Talia`> but instead....they decided to bloat MIDI up with all sorts of things like MTE, and then decide to overcome out patch problem...we would make up a completely arbitrary set of bank assignments...and no manufacturer would produce hardware that allowed assignable banks
18:06:51 <Talia`> :P
18:06:55 <Talia`> well, it is
18:07:42 <tcn> in a tracker you say 'pitch slide from a to b, speed x, waveform y'
18:07:42 <Talia`> and if one CC isn't enough, sending a bunch of them, while sending standard note data, pitch bend data, active sensing, clock ticks, etc.
18:07:47 <Talia`> what's left?
18:08:04 <Talia`> just because you only use one channel, doesn't mean that line is still useful
18:08:14 <tcn> you shouldn't have to use CC's for pre-written stuff, only realtime pedals and stuff
18:08:40 <Talia`> so they starting making high speed patchbays, that provided many sets of isolated standard sixteen channel MIDI lines
18:08:47 <tcn> hahahah
18:09:36 <Talia`> well, as you point out...CC's are basically permanent...leaving it up to a black box of some kind or a computer to sort out the "undo" operations
18:10:29 <Talia`> at this point, we have computer music studios that rival computer labs...yet the gear still talks to one another with a protocol not so different than two tin cans and a string
18:10:42 <tcn> yeah
18:10:44 <Talia`> the electronic equivalent anyway
18:11:00 <tcn> heh, how about USB?
18:11:01 <Talia`> it "works", but we can do better...but I am afraid for someone to touch it
18:11:08 <Talia`> because I know they are just going to screw it up
18:11:17 <Talia`> well, my grief with USB is that it is a shared party-line
18:11:19 <tcn> or USB2
18:11:37 <Talia`> I made the mistake of thinking USB was going to be an improvement when I first bought my mac
18:11:45 <tcn> oh yeah, I forgot.. MIDI is a chain not a bus
18:11:52 <Talia`> but I soon realized, that however slow and limited serial is
18:12:01 <Talia`> it's a dedicated line
18:12:10 <Talia`> which means timing will not likely be interrupted
18:12:26 <Talia`> by a "device poll" or anything like that, as you have under USB
18:12:45 <tcn> yup.. ethernet's the same damn way.. except you can use switches and hubs to direct traffic
18:13:14 <tcn> hehe.. every machine sends something on the net, collide, wait, resend..
18:13:15 <Talia`> that's true...but no matter how good you are...there will be certain combinations of where a certain client talks to another client or server on a piece of the network
18:13:27 <tcn> timing is totally unpredictable on ethernet
18:13:27 <Talia`> and because of the way it is configured, will be going the SLOWEST route possible through all the mess
18:14:01 <Talia`> so, you try to balance out these weaknesses by using a little intuition about probability
18:14:01 <Talia`> and hope that doesn't happen [too much]
18:14:20 <Talia`> with any devices you intend on actually playing and editing heavily, you shouldn't even chain MIDI devices together
18:14:26 <tcn> btw, I've never used USB
18:14:34 <Talia`> that introduces delays as well
18:14:53 <Talia`> which also vary with the implementation of the bypass of each and every synthesizer made =)
18:14:53 <Talia`> well, I think USB is a good idea
18:14:54 <tcn> yeah, chaining involves retransmitting
18:14:57 <Talia`> but not for audio and music =)
18:15:54 <tcn> yeah
18:15:54 <tcn> I guess you just need lots of dedicated ports
18:15:54 <Talia`> anything that is required to be accurate in a real-time sense shouldn't be done over USB in my opinion
18:15:57 <Talia`> unless there is in fact nothing else on the line
18:16:00 <Talia`> and that's a waste
18:16:11 <Talia`> since manufacturers don't give you much in terms of USB buses
18:16:11 <tcn> yeah, why bother having a bus in that case
18:16:18 <ult> hang on
18:17:15 <Talia`> tcn: well, as far as I can tell...yeah...real high-speed dedicatedports are about as good as we have now
18:17:27 <Talia`> and much as people hate to say it...this is the realm of the "serial" and "parallel" port
18:17:39 <Talia`> the so called "analogue" port...which is a lot of bogus marketing stuff
18:18:23 <Talia`> :P
18:18:46 <tcn> huh?
18:18:52 <tcn> enlighten me
18:19:20 <tcn> meanwhile lemme get some spaghetti going..
18:21:31 --- join: goshawk` (goshawk@agreen.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth
18:21:41 <tcn> wb
18:21:53 <goshawk`> thanks
18:21:56 <goshawk`> not sure why I was disconnected :P
18:22:00 <goshawk`> what was the last thing you said?
18:22:22 <tcn> oh, enlighten me about these "analogue" ports.. never heard of it
18:22:27 --- quit: Talia` (barnes.openprojects.net adams.openprojects.net)
18:22:54 <goshawk`> oh...Apple put out this garbage about their "new generation" of machines being the first "all digital" computers
18:23:01 <ult> heh
18:23:27 <goshawk`> not only is it garbage...anyone who knows a clue about electronics knows that most of what makes a computer operate is inherently "analogue"
18:23:47 <ult> hey that's simply not truel
18:24:13 <goshawk`> well, why not?
18:24:45 <tcn> monitor cables, for instance
18:25:17 <goshawk`> I am typing on a large array of switches...am watching the channel text through a vacuum tube...etc.
18:25:26 <tcn> haha
18:25:30 <goshawk`> last I checked, speakers were still pretty analogue too
18:25:44 <goshawk`> my mouse happens to be optical, so I won't go there
18:25:56 <goshawk`> (this WAS an improvement, imo)
18:26:00 --- join: ree_ (jwm@twisted.goodnet.com) joined #forth
18:26:06 <goshawk`> hey ree =)
18:26:08 <ree_> hey =)
18:26:14 <tcn> remember the old CGA monitors, they were digitally connected.. analog was a step up
18:26:27 <ree_> I like what forth stands for, so I'll stay =)
18:26:29 <goshawk`> yeah
18:26:34 <goshawk`> how are you, ree?
18:26:37 <ree_> great
18:26:40 <ree_> finally started on dist
18:27:13 --- quit: AmNCamp (barnes.openprojects.net lackey.openprojects.net)
18:27:19 --- nick: ree_ -> ree
18:28:00 <goshawk`> I am not sure if this was already said in the channel...but the public's idea of a professional computer is a computer that has a lot of brawn but no flexibility
18:28:08 <goshawk`> that's a contradiction I think
18:28:09 <goshawk`> :P
18:28:28 <ree> darn patoot'n
18:28:49 <goshawk`> I would argue that most professions if they have a reputation to uphold and aren't being backed by a multi-billion dollar corporation (e.g. Compaq) probably don't care all too much if the stuff they use is trendy
18:29:00 <goshawk`> as long as it is the best for what they want
18:29:00 <goshawk`> :P
18:29:03 <tcn> forth stands for something? Fine Old Religion of True Hackers
18:29:15 <goshawk`> hah
18:29:27 <goshawk`> professions = professionals
18:29:43 <goshawk`> I am sorry I rant so much
18:29:47 * goshawk` will try to shut up now
18:30:09 * goshawk` waits for Fare to come back online and kick the crap out of him
18:30:22 <ree> you talk a lot, and what I say isn't coherent
18:30:32 <goshawk`> ree: we make a great team, don't we?
18:30:33 <ree> maybe we could combine our two dark force powers
18:30:36 <ree> and take over the world
18:30:42 <ree> yep
18:30:43 <goshawk`> it's hard to imagine that in real life I don't talk much at all :P
18:30:54 <goshawk`> hah
18:30:55 <ree> haha, fare
18:31:14 <goshawk`> he was a nice fellow I was having a discussion with
18:31:23 <goshawk`> I think I kind of pissed him off a bit
18:31:30 <goshawk`> not intentionally of course
18:31:30 <goshawk`> =)
18:31:33 <ree> he's a tuner
18:31:49 <ree> they think one way, their way =)
18:32:04 <goshawk`> he was dumping on macs, so I was defending what I thought needed defending
18:32:46 <goshawk`> he made some good points though
18:32:49 <ree> you should spend time working on your music =)
18:32:55 <ree> rather than talking with hippies heh
18:32:58 --- quit: ult (changing servers)
18:32:59 <goshawk`> well, I do...I call this my "off time"
18:33:18 --- join: ult (ult@1Cust82.tnt4.nashville.tn.da.uu.net) joined #forth
18:33:18 <goshawk`> where I just waste some time and give my work a rest for a bit
18:33:20 <goshawk`> =)
18:33:23 <ult> ugh
18:33:33 <goshawk`> ult: what's wrong?
18:34:21 <ult> oh, just a netsplit that took someone i was talking with away,
18:34:56 <tcn> so hook up w/ his server :)
18:34:59 <goshawk`> that sucks :P
18:36:23 <ult> I tried -- apparently his server died.
18:37:33 <tcn> oops
18:37:42 <tcn> hey was it eihrul?
18:50:32 --- join: AmNCamp (amnesia@mcns21.docsis52.singa.pore.net) joined #forth
18:50:51 * AmNCamp is away: (automatically dead) [BX-MsgLog Off]
18:52:35 --- quit: lar1 (Read error to lar1[adsl-63-203-75-118.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: EOF from client)
19:02:33 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ppp-168.u1-h2.dca.fcc.net) joined #forth
19:02:33 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard
19:02:38 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
19:03:02 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +ooo I440r ult goshawk`
19:06:53 <tcn> 'evening
19:07:08 <tcn> +ooo?
19:07:14 <goshawk`> thanks =)
19:07:44 <TheBlueWizard> tcn: +ooo ops three ppl :)
19:07:47 <tcn> you need an 'o' for everyone you op?
19:07:49 <TheBlueWizard> np
19:08:09 <tcn> so to op me also you'd use +oooo?
19:09:05 <TheBlueWizard> no.....example:
19:09:10 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o AmNCamp
19:09:16 <TheBlueWizard> that is one +o
19:09:26 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +oo clog NaN
19:09:39 <TheBlueWizard> two ops...see the pattern now?
19:10:31 <tcn> you learn something every day
19:10:40 <goshawk`> I don't get it
19:10:44 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
19:10:52 <goshawk`> =)
19:10:52 <ult> of course not, of course not...
19:11:36 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o ree
19:11:41 <TheBlueWizard> what the hey :)
19:12:16 <tcn> so whats new at the usda?
19:12:50 <TheBlueWizard> nothing much....just paper pushing hehe
19:13:57 <tcn> hehe.. same here, bean counting
19:14:05 <tcn> if my bosses have their way
19:14:23 <tcn> why can't I just have A boss?
19:14:31 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:14:53 <TheBlueWizard> that's why it pays to look for another job :)
19:16:01 <tcn> how many bosses you got?
19:16:19 <tcn> is bigger better?
19:17:14 <tcn> we got about 20 employees, 25% of them are owners/managers, 25% are little bosses..
19:17:48 <TheBlueWizard> one boss immediately above me....but there is a boss above him, and then there is a sort of boss above that one and this one must answer to a board....and that board must answer to the Administrator, and the Administrator must answer to the Secretary (Dan Glickman)
19:18:03 <goshawk`> 1% actually do the work
19:18:15 <goshawk`> 49% are on the payroll...but no one even knows who they are
19:19:14 <goshawk`> sounds like a company I can grow to love
19:19:14 <tcn> sounds like... Lockheed Martin!
19:19:14 <tcn> or IBM
19:19:14 <goshawk`> haha =)
19:19:14 <goshawk`> I am kidding of course
19:19:14 <TheBlueWizard> I don't know the percentage, but it seems to be at least 20%
19:19:14 <goshawk`> not about IBM or Lockheed, though =)
19:20:12 <tcn> well.. at one point there was a manager there with 1 person under him
19:20:28 <tcn> but that person transferred to another wing
19:20:56 <tcn>  hehe "my job is to manage you"
19:21:13 <ree> so if you work 1% harder, you're lost in the system 99% longer
19:21:27 <tcn> of course half the managers were promoted because it was easier than having them fired
19:21:50 <goshawk`> defies my sense of logic, but somehow makes sense =)
19:22:31 <TheBlueWizard> weird
19:22:39 <tcn> heh.. subcontractors do all the work, with 10% the manpower
19:23:29 <tcn> the smaller your piece of the pie the bigger your share of the work
19:25:12 <goshawk`> I can't stand it when you get a 404 error, and the site has the guts to load your browser up with cookies if it can
19:25:16 <goshawk`> like ten of them in a row
19:25:49 <ree> cookie monster
19:26:10 <ree> gobble gobble
19:26:19 <tcn> hey maybe you can send back POISON cookies....
19:26:29 <TheBlueWizard> lol!  good idea!
19:27:05 <tcn> you might be able to EVAL them or overflow a buffer even..
19:27:16 <tcn> or at least fuck up the database
19:27:26 <tcn> what's the url?
19:27:56 <TheBlueWizard> beats me
19:28:20 <tcn> (off topic): jesus christ look how close this pipe is to the pavement, no wonder they hit it.. http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/spacemen2.jpg
19:28:46 <tcn> goshawk: what server was it?
19:29:54 <goshawk`> oh, I don't remember...I was just browsing around from altavista and trying a bunch of links
19:30:14 <tcn> oh
19:30:23 <goshawk`> every so often you get one that does that...or tries to drop a recursive java window that keeps reopening a new site with that site dropping new cookies each time
19:30:30 <tcn> i'll have to try poison cookies sometime
19:30:56 <goshawk`> so, the screen jumps around and dialogies pop up every 2ms asking if I should accept X cookies or Y
19:31:00 <goshawk`> yeah, that would be cool =)
19:31:02 <tcn> hehe
19:31:04 <goshawk`> if it can be done
19:31:09 <goshawk`> =)
19:31:48 <tcn> this is why I disable java & cookies
19:31:51 <tcn> god, I hated the versions of netscrape and ie that didn't have a "turn off cookies and shut up about it" option
19:32:04 <goshawk`> well, for some sites I need cookies
19:32:14 <TheBlueWizard> yeah....and I don't like javascript in certain cases also...can get trapped
19:32:19 <goshawk`> and there isn't any compromise in most browsers
19:32:29 <goshawk`> either on or off
19:32:43 <goshawk`> no "decline these fuzzy bastards" and "accept these" kind of thing
19:32:45 <tcn> java/script is also more likely to crash your browser
19:32:48 <goshawk`> you have to do it manually
19:32:53 <goshawk`> yeah, it does suck
19:32:54 <goshawk`> =)
19:33:01 <tcn> ie5 is pretty decent
19:33:10 <tcn> in that one respect :)
19:33:21 * TheBlueWizard agrees with tcn...IE 5 ain't bad
19:33:24 <goshawk`> yes, it is
19:33:32 <goshawk`> ditto =)
19:33:55 <tcn> someone FINALLY made a good browser... links
19:34:28 <tcn> 9 years, it took
19:34:53 <ree> cookies are useful
19:35:20 <ree> the web is as useless as it can be, no reason to keep turning off what little functionality it has heh
19:35:48 <tcn> transient cookies aren't TOO bad
19:36:11 <ree> there should be a cookie format standard
19:36:23 <ree> so you can turn off specific cookie functionality
19:36:57 <tcn> links doesn't even store cookies on disk
19:37:29 <ree> lynx?
19:37:35 <tcn> no. 'links'
19:37:39 <ree> ohh
19:37:45 <tcn> it's a text browser that doesn't suck
19:37:45 <ree> haven't used it
19:37:48 <ree> yeah
19:37:51 <ree> I like w3m the most
19:37:55 <ree> www.w3m.org
19:37:59 <tcn> oh yeah
19:38:07 <ree> tables, frames, colored text
19:38:11 <ree> local cgi
19:38:15 <ree> pager too
19:38:21 <ree> supports ssl as well
19:38:37 <tcn> not bad
19:38:54 <tcn> is it stable?
19:39:24 <ree> very
19:39:26 <ree> very fast
19:39:35 <ree> they also have screenshots of it at their site
19:39:44 <ree> slashdot looks identical in it
19:41:07 --- quit: tcn (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations)
19:41:49 --- join: tcn (Tom@207.198.30.79) joined #forth
19:42:27 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o tcn
19:42:30 <TheBlueWizard> rello tcn
19:44:52 <tcn> hey
19:45:02 <tcn> hmm it's getting late
19:45:17 <tcn> i'm not staying up till 1:30 again.. that sucked
19:45:18 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:45:41 <TheBlueWizard> I should be going to bed...but, IRC est la drogue!!!!!
19:45:43 <TheBlueWizard> hehe
19:45:53 <tcn> heh
19:47:02 <tcn> yeah between that and reading the web pages of people who have all the time in the world to write web pages cause they made a shitload of dough writing web browsers..
19:49:36 <ult> i need dough
19:50:18 <tcn> sell something
19:51:08 <tcn> sell your car!
19:51:08 <tcn> your computer!!
19:51:08 <TheBlueWizard> lol
19:51:08 <ult> no car
19:51:08 <ult> and well, the computer is staying Right Here.
19:51:08 <tcn> where's here?
19:51:17 <ult> Tennessee :)
19:52:20 <tcn> what town?
19:52:26 <tcn> crossville?
19:53:03 <ult> nope, spring hill
19:53:07 <ult> why do you say crossville?
19:54:24 <tcn> seemed like money would be kinda hard to come by there
19:55:04 <tcn> hehe.. my dad's friend who lived there had to haul weed to make ends meet
19:55:18 <tcn> truckloads of it
19:56:21 <ult> ergh
19:56:27 <ult> i go to school in cookeville =/
19:56:32 <ult> which is not too far from crossville
19:56:48 <tcn> i was close ;)
19:57:02 <tcn> college or hs?
19:57:04 <ult> college
19:57:48 <ree> you come from real royalty eh tcn? =)
19:58:10 <tcn> hehe
19:58:11 * ult looks at ree
19:58:22 <tcn> oh i was raised by yankees
19:58:29 <ult> Heh, I was born in Boston, Ma :0
19:58:46 <ult> I am *not* a fucking redneck ...
19:59:12 <ree> no, you're almost a cannuck
19:59:24 <tcn> why do you say Ma.. is there a Boston, TN?
19:59:24 <ult> my grandparents were from Canadia
19:59:44 <ree> there is another boston
19:59:44 <tcn> canadia? is that part of scotland?
19:59:49 <ult> mauahaha :)
19:59:50 <ree> lol
20:00:00 * ult goofs off
20:00:06 <ult> my grandparents are from Newfoundland, Canada.
20:00:12 <ree> ult is really in touch with his roots
20:00:13 <ult> And their parents/grandparents from Ireland
20:00:16 <ult> ree; yes, i am.
20:00:20 <tcn> cool
20:00:30 <ree> I'm a hybrid too
20:00:42 <ree> just not sure what percentage of what 
20:01:00 <ult> I've got red hair and green eyes ;)
20:01:04 <ult> I'm mostly irish looking
20:01:08 <ree> only problem is the damn blue eye/brown eye thing
20:01:15 <ree> my coat is also colored funny
20:01:53 <ult> I was born with light blond hair and blue eyes...I looked like the perfect Aryan
20:02:10 <ult> (I looked *sooo* Aryan when I was young)
20:02:11 <tcn> hehe.. i know a puerto rican who looked like that
20:02:28 <ree> ult is a child of the corn
20:02:31 <tcn> gray now :)
20:03:51 <ree> so, how long have you guys been using forth
20:03:52 <tcn> so are there any jobs down there, ult?
20:04:17 <tcn> ree: 2.5 years
20:04:35 <ree> I like its goals
20:04:40 <ree> and the founder's ideas
20:04:52 <ree> I also like assembly
20:05:30 <ree> it's sort of hard though understanding it having studied other hll
20:05:39 <ree> most are C structured
20:05:42 <ree> procedural, functional
20:05:52 <ree> not really that nice of systems
20:06:17 <tcn> just modelled on algebraic notation, in a half-assed way
20:06:35 <TheBlueWizard> lol
20:06:49 <ree> I like how it is centered around stack operations
20:07:19 <ree> but I haven't studied it enough to understand its basic structure and syntax
20:08:01 <tcn> see if you can find the book Starting Forth, by Leo Brodie
20:08:22 <ree> I was hoping for a good online reference
20:08:30 <tcn> and there are some tutorials on the net
20:08:53 <ree> I found a lot of references, but most seemed to be short in the teaching department
20:09:33 <TheBlueWizard> hehe....best way to learn is to play with it...almost all Forth implementations are interactive by nature, so....
20:09:37 <tcn> my advice: ignore the DPANS standards document you'll find laying around.. just read the source to a simple Forth compiler, using what you can learn from the tutorials
20:10:00 <ree> yeah, good advice
20:10:04 <TheBlueWizard> not a bad advice, considering the bewildering array of dialects
20:10:05 <ree> I haven't taken time to yet
20:10:55 <ree> I downloaded a bunch of source to various small and large forth implementations
20:11:08 <ree> freebsd/bitchx
20:11:09 <tcn> you run unix?
20:11:16 <tcn> ok
20:11:18 <ree> yeah, I have a bunch of unix based forth stuff
20:11:36 <ree> including gforth, bigforth, and the much smaller ones
20:11:56 <tcn> gforth, bigforth, pfe.. those are all written in C
20:12:08 <tcn> and pfroth too
20:12:11 <ree> yep
20:12:27 <ree> I have all of those
20:12:29 <ree> heh, stupid linux server
20:12:41 <ree> getting seg faults when I do a directory listing inside of the forth dir
20:12:46 <tcn> they're ok to play with, but the source is so complicated
20:12:57 <tcn> hahahahaha
20:13:17 <tcn> have you downloaded CMFORTH?
20:13:25 <ree> linux really sucks heh
20:13:30 <ree> hmm
20:13:31 <TheBlueWizard> I would also recommend looking at cross-compilable Forth (i.e. metacompiling) and Forth written in assembly.  The former is quite a mental challenge, and the latter is kind of enlightening, if you know assembly
20:13:44 <ree> yeah, I love asm
20:13:52 <tcn> ok, start there
20:14:02 <ree> in fact, I am using it to start a organization
20:14:07 <tcn> oh.. try www.zetetics.com/~bj
20:14:10 <ree> and was hoping to maybe get some logic from forth
20:14:49 <ree> I don't like writing assembly in the form of functional programs
20:14:49 <tcn> look under Publications for "Moving Forth"
20:14:51 <ree> not found
20:15:00 <tcn> try /bj
20:15:13 <ree> god damn
20:15:26 <ree> I think I have to reboot linux
20:15:42 <tcn> yeah, www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/
20:15:57 <tcn> ok, reboot :)
20:15:57 <ree> only reason I am using it for that machine is the support for usb/sound
20:16:01 <ree> did =)
20:16:03 <tcn> linux really sucks now
20:16:17 <ree> you wouldn't think I'd use linux for a network server would you?
20:16:17 <ree> heh
20:16:31 <tcn> lots of people do...
20:16:37 <ree> yeah
20:16:40 <ree> supposedly
20:16:50 <tcn> i did at one point, when the "bleeding edge" was more stable than today's "stable"
20:16:54 <TheBlueWizard> interesting resume in that URL
20:16:54 <ree> it isn't even stable enough to run X for that long
20:17:08 <ree> yeah, the 2.0.x days were ok
20:17:16 <tcn> 1.1.x
20:17:26 * TheBlueWizard chuckles
20:17:27 <ree> ahh, you know something funny
20:17:43 <ree> the first unix I used at home
20:17:47 <ree> was linux
20:17:51 <ree> only had it installed for 2 weeks
20:17:57 <ree> then I went hunting for better systems
20:18:08 <ree> been using freebsd since 2.2.5
20:18:18 <tcn> hehe
20:18:26 <ree> I just couldn't stand it
20:18:36 <tcn> I think I switched at 2.2.8
20:18:36 <ree> its responsiveness is crap
20:18:52 <tcn> that was 2-3 years ago right?
20:18:54 <ree> yeah
20:18:57 <tcn> hheheh
20:19:00 <ree> I used OS/2 for a long time
20:19:34 <tcn> lately us here have been messing w/ assembly under unix/linux.. guess what.. linux sucks!
20:19:46 <ree> assembly under unix is a lot more fun than dos
20:19:55 <ree> hah, yeah
20:19:56 <tcn> the syscall interface in linux is like DOS
20:20:02 <tcn> registers
20:20:03 <ree> yep
20:20:17 <ree> I downloaded a bunch of unix assembly examples
20:21:09 <tcn> ok, linux was quite an achievement for what it started, not what it is..
20:21:11 <ree> I played around for a long time implementing my own elf/coff headers
20:21:18 <ree> yeah
20:21:49 <ree> asmutils, asm-toys
20:22:04 <tcn> i probably wouldn't be here if it weren't for linux
20:22:05 <ree> basically read a lot of the links at linuxassembly.org
20:22:12 <tcn> yup :)
20:22:20 <ree> I would
20:22:37 <ree> basically all of the software that ran under unix was even being ported to OS/2 back then
20:22:48 <tcn> right
20:22:51 <ree> then you had bsd/386
20:23:01 <ree> netbsd has been around for a long time
20:23:16 <ree> XFree86 under OS/2 is really nice
20:23:55 <ree> what's interesting is that what mostly made OS/2 capable of a lot of unix software
20:24:04 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: -o I440r
20:24:04 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o I440r
20:24:10 <TheBlueWizard> just teasing I440r ;)
20:24:15 <ree> was just the simple fact that the OS/2 command prompt was pretty similar in capabilities
20:24:49 <ree> I think windows could of gotten a lot more support had they incorporated a better version 
20:25:02 <tcn> hehe.. than command.com
20:25:06 <ree> yeah
20:25:11 <ree> some 32bit 
20:25:23 <ree> since the OS/2 command prompt was also capable of running as a 32bit system
20:25:34 <ree> in fact, you didn't even need to run the graphics system
20:25:35 <tcn> windows would have needed multitasking in the core, and graphics as an extension
20:25:48 <ree> yeah
20:25:53 <ree> they had a great example to do that as well
20:25:58 <ree> they worked for IBM for a while
20:26:02 <ree> for/with
20:26:25 <ree> OS/2 2.0 from about 12 years ago or so still has features windows is just now putting in
20:27:06 <tcn> heh.. like what?
20:27:16 <ree> desktop/settings archiving
20:27:38 <ree> that has been part of OS/2 since 1.3 I think
20:27:55 <ree> printer spools, drag and drop
20:28:00 <ree> since way back
20:28:14 <TheBlueWizard> got to go...later all!
20:28:19 <ree> later blue
20:28:21 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth
20:28:34 <ree> you could even theme the look of your entire desktop
20:28:43 <ree> run windows programs
20:28:52 <ree> or dos with dpmi even
20:29:21 <ree> os/2 v4 was a incredible release as well
20:29:29 <ree> for 70 dollars you got 4 cds
20:29:43 <ult> OS/2 3 was great
20:29:47 <ree> including complete voice navigation of your desktop and applications
20:29:54 <ree> yeah, 3 was good too
20:29:56 <ult> my only concern with OS/2 was the fact that it was so bloated
20:29:58 <ree> but 4 even went further
20:30:14 <ree> yep
20:30:16 <tcn> heh.. more bloated than windows?
20:30:17 <ult> well, I never bought 4...
20:30:20 <ree> it had its shortcomings 
20:30:35 <ree> believe it or not, free unix distributions are catching up to the bloat
20:30:44 <ult> uh
20:30:45 <ult> linux distributions fucking suck
20:30:50 <ult> that is no joke
20:30:59 <tcn> yeah
20:31:05 <ree> still
20:31:09 <ree> even a base install
20:31:13 <ree> of various binaries
20:31:18 <ree> what is it, 40mb
20:31:23 <tcn> yup
20:31:36 <ree> which is cut down to 1mb with assembly released versions
20:31:44 <tcn> asmutils?
20:31:52 <ree> no, floppy versions
20:32:01 <ree> but yeah
20:32:04 <ree> asmutils is a good example
20:32:06 <tcn> heh.. asmutils.. no glibc2
20:32:11 <tcn> cuts wayyyyyyyyy down
20:32:11 <ult> glibc2 SUCKS
20:32:15 <ult> it is the worst C library EVER
20:32:15 <ree> yep
20:32:16 <tcn> die die die
20:32:17 <ree> no libc at all
20:32:22 <ult> I have never seen one so comparible with glibc in suckiness.
20:32:26 <ree> C is just sad imo though
20:32:31 <ult> yes, C is sad.
20:32:35 <ult> But I like emacs ..
20:32:40 <tcn> C is ok
20:32:41 <ult> and i can run star office
20:33:06 <tcn> C > Pascal > BASIC > Perl
20:33:19 <tcn> > C++ > Java
20:33:38 <ree> heh
20:33:45 <ree> I had fun with basic
20:33:51 <ree> only time I did it was when my sister was forced to take it
20:33:56 <ree> either it or fortran
20:33:59 <ree> fortran 77
20:34:14 <ree> pre med, they make you take courses you'll never use when a undergrad
20:34:54 <ree> so I did her basic assignments with the free basic interpreter included with OS/2
20:34:54 <tcn> I started with GWBASIC, moved up to Pascal, Qbasic, then C which I kinda liked.. messed w/ C++ Java Perl etc. which sucked, finally found Forth
20:34:54 <ree> yep, qbasic
20:34:59 <ree> what do you use asm for?
20:35:19 <tcn> I learned asm at the same time as forth
20:35:35 <ree> yeah, a few relations
20:36:13 <ree> hehe, shared memory isn't getting released by mozilla under linux
20:36:20 <tcn> I use it for forth compilers, hardware drivers, graphics a bit..
20:36:27 <tcn> mozilla sucks
20:36:37 <ree> m18 is nice looking
20:36:38 <tcn> even jwz says so :)
20:36:42 <ree> but yes, sucks completely
20:36:52 <ree> xscreensaver guy right?
20:37:05 <tcn> i think he runs/ran mozilla
20:37:14 <tcn> his baby
20:37:23 <ult> ree: What free BASIC interpreter that came with OS/2?
20:37:27 <ree> ohh, no
20:37:31 <ree> he worked on the first netscape version
20:37:45 <tcn> yup
20:37:48 <ult> he used to work very in depth with mozilla
20:37:48 <ree> ult, IBM qbasic
20:37:51 <ult> he worked with netscape through v3
20:37:56 <ree> yeah
20:38:04 <ult> well, coded through v3 iirc
20:38:13 <ult> might have been v4...he also worked on xscreensaver and xemacs
20:38:15 <ree> heh, that's the third or so time I've seen him mentioned here
20:38:41 * ult has talked with jwz a bit on irc
20:38:51 <tcn> hehehe.. I stumbled on jwz's site through a list of links about Postscript.. got jwz's misc. hacks.. first one was "worth".. 
20:39:04 <ree> ahh
20:39:09 <ree> I got to it through xscreensaver
20:39:16 <ree> he does some self promotion =)
20:39:26 <tcn> "your net worth in netscape stock is ___ and you'll be fully vested in ___ days but if you quit now you won't get any of it"
20:40:27 <tcn> like if I had any doubts that "tech stocks" are bullshit, they're gone now
20:40:38 <ult> tech stocks are mostly bullshit
20:40:51 <ult> the problem is that tech changes too often and SHOULD NOT be used for profit making
20:41:02 <ult> usage of tech, maybe, but not tech itself, and that is the problem.
20:41:23 <tcn> hehe.. people are the problem
20:41:31 <ree> profit making should not be used for profit making heh
20:41:44 <tcn> as i440r would say, guns don't kill people...
20:41:48 <ree> and that's what happened to tech
20:41:54 <ree> people joined to make money
20:41:56 <ult> guns don't kill people
20:42:04 <ult> guns rape and murder and savage and maim people
20:42:07 <ree> people kill guns though
20:42:09 <ult> but no, they don't "kill" people.
20:42:10 <ult> gah.
20:42:11 <ult> heh
20:42:23 <ree> we should make intelligent guns
20:42:29 <ree> to take over the world
20:42:29 <ult> guns do kill people occasionally...but more often than not the blame is not in the gun
20:42:29 <ree> so they finally do kill people
20:42:39 <ult> when a 5 year old drops a gun on the floor, the gun killed him
20:42:42 <ree> then people can complain
20:42:46 <ree> no
20:42:48 <ree> the parent killed them
20:42:53 <ult> Because we can't tell the lazy father who left the gun on the table that he killed the kid
20:42:54 <ree> for letting the gun out
20:42:57 <ult> That would be politically incorrect.
20:42:59 <ree> ohh
20:43:00 <ree> ok
20:43:01 <tcn> no, an unfortunate chain of events killed him
20:43:03 <ree> you're making a point
20:43:07 <ree> yeah
20:43:08 <ult> yes ;)
20:43:13 <ree> caused by the father/mother
20:43:20 <ree> or older brother/sister
20:43:26 <tcn> there's a guy here in town whose son fell on a kitchen knife
20:43:39 <ult> it comes down to blame
20:43:44 <ult> if you kill someone who is to blame
20:43:45 <ult> you
20:43:49 <ree> a kitchen knife is a general tool
20:43:51 <ult> the events that "forced" you to kill the person
20:43:51 <ult> what?
20:43:53 <ree> a gun has one purpose
20:44:04 <ree> there is a line, albeit fine
20:44:13 <ree> you lock up a gun, not a kitchen knife
20:44:23 <ult> If I rape your sister, and say in court, it was because she was leading me on, and said nothin during the event, did you know I have a 80% chance of getting off if I have a good lawyer, as long as I didn't beat the shit out of her or anything?
20:44:27 <ree> you also teach one how to use either
20:44:46 <tcn> haha
20:44:49 <ult> I'm indecisive. Fuck me, I'll decide if it's rape later.
20:44:51 <tcn> oh I thought you said "if you rape your sister.."
20:44:51 <ree> it's all culture
20:45:03 <ree> no right or wrong
20:45:10 <ree> just wherever one wants to make a stand
20:45:13 <ult> And when a girl is raped, she doesn't tell anyone, because for some reason, people automatically now assume that it was her fault. Shit.
20:45:18 <ree> and if the majority is behind that person
20:45:53 <tcn> yeah, oh he would never do that..
20:45:58 <tcn> Ted Bundee
20:46:12 <ree> do any of you think a chaotic system would be good?
20:46:23 <ree> if education were properly teached in it
20:46:33 <ult> I dunno.
20:46:43 <ult> I think people would have to stand for themselves and eachother
20:46:53 <ree> I do, though that is very easy for me to say
20:46:58 <ree> yes
20:47:02 <ult> We would have to live in a system where no body had express power over any other -- where we *all* are legally deputized officers of the mutual law and trust.
20:47:11 <ult> the social contract was wrong idea
20:47:21 <ult> Don't take away rights so you can be gaurunteed what is left.
20:47:28 <ult> Turn everyone into God and then no one can take anything from you.
20:47:38 <ree> well, I think what will have to happen
20:47:45 <ult> I like guns. If you think I might be packing a 9mm beretta, are you going to mug me?
20:47:53 <ree> is that a virtual reality will ultimately have to be made
20:48:37 <ree> unless some proponant of a chaotic system somehow does some sort of mind meld to a majority of people
20:48:46 <tcn> nah, I think this tech wave will & should die off
20:49:05 <ult> no no no
20:49:09 <ult> this tech wave should not die
20:49:10 <ult> it should change
20:49:18 <ult> we need funded technology research en masse
20:49:20 <ult> not for profit
20:49:24 <ult> give the results to everyone
20:49:45 <ree> that's the idea of dist =)
20:49:50 <tcn> ok, but just having govt funding, you'll get something like the USDA
20:49:57 <tcn> a disaster
20:50:02 <ult> true
20:50:06 <ult> DARPA is kind of the right way
20:50:14 <ult> except DARPA is well, doing things in the "national interest"
20:50:24 <ree> no
20:50:26 <ult> we need meaningless research
20:50:28 <ree> you need a unbiased third party
20:50:37 <ult> yep
20:50:40 <ult> where do you get it?
20:50:53 <ree> with its own set of unenforced principles 
20:51:11 <ree> that would allow people to feel part of a community 
20:51:13 <tcn> umm.. I think the congress & president are the real killers, not the military
20:51:17 <ree> but still be very individualistic
20:51:27 <tcn> who gives the orders?
20:51:36 <ult> well
20:51:44 <ult> what we need is a collective conciousness system
20:51:44 <ree> tcn, the military is not a uneducated weapon
20:51:47 <ult> people are very social
20:51:52 <ult> i think we need to address that aspect
20:51:59 <ult> lets face it
20:52:00 <ree> ult, one that is completely unrelated to humanity
20:52:04 <ult> the internet depersonalizes the world.
20:52:11 <ree> it very much does so
20:52:18 <ree> it abstracts communication to a level that is not personal
20:52:19 <tcn> yup
20:52:20 <ult> ree: The internet could have been it if it hadn't gotten commercialized.
20:52:32 <ree> ult, there are plenty of parts that are open and free
20:52:34 <ree> and not commercialized
20:52:46 <ult> ree: not enough
20:52:53 <tcn> .edu doesn't count anymore
20:53:01 <ult> I also think we need a new language
20:53:01 <ult> a new human language
20:53:04 <ult> Something based on ideas instead of metaphors
20:53:19 <tcn> :) :) :P ^-:
20:53:19 <ult> Paint a picture, don't tell a story.
20:53:34 <ree> I don't see us having to use verbal/written language
20:53:36 <ree> in the future
20:53:45 <ult> }:)
20:53:49 <ult> well
20:53:52 <tcn> hehe let's use Chinese
20:53:52 <ree> we'll have extensions of our intelligence that automate that facility
20:53:56 <ult> we need psionics to be developed
20:54:02 <ree> we could communicate with objects in our minds
20:54:03 <ree> thoughts
20:54:05 <ult> yep
20:54:16 <ult> there is evidence that we might be preprogrammed with a language and with psionics
20:54:26 <tcn> Chinese writing is basically a bunch of stylized pictures
20:54:26 <ult> lets go on that -- figure out how to communicate with thoughts via telepathy
20:54:29 <ult> and we are set ;)
20:54:45 <tcn> uhh sure :)
20:54:53 <ult> (ok, so it's very sci-fi)
20:55:15 <tcn> how about just walk outside and talk to someone?
20:55:21 <ree> well, all of us are capable of changing the electro magnetic field around us .01% 
20:55:24 <tcn> or go partying or dancing or something?
20:55:53 <ree> why think of humanity as a intelligence tied to a body that deteriates with time
20:55:54 <tcn> go to church, or whatever
20:56:55 <tcn> or pagan rituals.. that seems to be where everyone our age goes instead ;)
20:57:05 <ree> hehe
20:57:19 <ult> hey
20:57:20 <ree> I think we should promote individualism =)
20:57:23 <ult> i prefer satanic rituals myself
20:57:28 <ree> that's why america is so successful
20:57:29 <ult> I think we should promote love
20:57:32 <ult> but not th elove based on sex
20:57:34 <ult> that annoys me
20:57:35 <ree> even if we get carried away with businesses
20:57:39 <tcn> heh
20:57:40 <ult> that so many young people equate love and romance with sex
20:57:58 <ult> That the only way you can care about someone is caring about jumping them in the sack, and then being able to stand what they say.
20:58:05 <tcn> love has two meanings
20:58:12 <ree> ult, we should pick the strongest emotions, and base the rest of our lives living out those emotions
20:58:45 <ree> love spelled backwards is pronounced evil
20:58:48 <ult> ree: My strongest emotion is hate.
20:58:52 <ult> Hmm
20:58:55 <ree> heh
20:58:57 <ult> well
20:59:13 <ult> I'm a sociopath because of certain psychological disasters I went through as a pre-teen
20:59:25 <ree> I am too
20:59:29 <tcn> hehe
20:59:31 <ree> probably most of us are
20:59:46 <ult> (By sociopath, I mean medically, I have a VERY hard time experiencing emotions)
20:59:49 <ree> why else would we be typing through a abstract protocol viewed through a crt
21:00:04 <ree> ohh
21:00:09 <ree> and by disasters you mean drugs?
21:00:24 <ult> ree: No, I mean going through basically what those columbine kids went through, only worse ;)
21:00:31 <ult> ree: Except I was put in a homeschool before I shot anyone up.
21:00:49 <ree> well
21:01:04 <ree> like they say, what doesn't kill you, doesn't kill you
21:01:07 <ult> *sigh* i feel weird about it now that I am really realizing it.
21:01:10 <ult> hmph
21:02:02 <ult> I made a shell of no-emotion and I am scared to get rid of it
21:02:02 <ult> I felt the negative emotions so much that my brain just said "fuck all emotions, they hurt too much"
21:02:02 <ree> but that is a emotion in itself
21:02:02 <ree> the most controlling one
21:02:02 <tcn> heh.. who HASN'T thought about killing a few dozen classmates?
21:02:02 <ult> Yep...
21:02:02 <ree> tcn, actually, I never did heh
21:02:16 <ree> I stole from one once
21:02:16 <ree> like twenty candy things
21:02:16 <ree> since he broke my pencils
21:02:33 <ult> well
21:02:35 <tcn> heh
21:02:39 <ult> I don't know what to do sometimes.
21:02:53 <ult> I can understand a lot of the position because I've been coming out of my shell a little bit and I really love experiencing emotions
21:02:57 <tcn> maybe it's better just to pound on them a little instead of letting it simmer :)
21:03:09 <ult> like friendship and love...but I'm still too scared to come out all together.
21:03:22 <ree> tcn, if I had to do it all over again, I would've had a lot of blood on my hands heh
21:03:38 <ree> come out of the closet?
21:03:39 <ree> j/k
21:03:42 <tcn> heh
21:03:44 <ult> ree: That's an interesting proposal...at the time I was a 90 pound weakling.
21:04:13 <tcn> yeah, true, i was kinda a runt (just found out why.. food allergies cause malnutrtion)
21:04:26 <ree> some of those 90 pound weaklings are the biggest assholes in the book
21:04:29 <tcn> now that i've stopped growing.. dammit'
21:04:31 <ult> I just didn't start growing until late in life.
21:04:42 <ult> (And now I'm 6'2")
21:04:50 <tcn> cool
21:05:08 <ree> and still 90lbs?
21:05:19 <ree> good god
21:05:19 <ult> no :)
21:05:19 <ree> hehe
21:05:19 <ult> quite a bit more now ;)
21:07:47 <tcn> is this thing still on?
21:08:22 <ree> heh
21:10:40 <tcn> what happened to those columbine hs kids anyway.. outcasts?
21:11:06 <ree> the ones that caused the shooting?
21:11:10 <ree> they were killed
21:11:44 <tcn> that did the shooting.. what did they go through to drive them to those lengths?
21:12:06 <tcn> rumor went around that they were fags and didn't let up?  kids are fucking cruel
21:13:10 <ree> ahh
21:13:17 <tcn> (just a guess.. i've seen that happen, it's brutal)
21:13:36 <ree> it could of been a college frat initiation gone wrong
21:13:38 <ree> j/k
21:13:46 <ult> I've had that happen to me, it's brutal.
21:14:00 <ult> And I didn't even wear trenchcoats and nail polish. 
21:14:00 <ree> I was never called a fag
21:14:07 <ree> but I was always the laughed at once in schoo
21:14:07 <ree> l
21:14:11 <ree> -c
21:14:16 <ult> ree: Yeah, and there was the physical abuse, and the racism.
21:14:19 <ree> I was overweight most of the time
21:14:38 <ree> yeah, I got a little physical abuse
21:14:51 <ult> abuse suxes
21:14:52 <ree> heh, I'm white and freckled 
21:14:57 <ult> i'm white too :)
21:15:01 <ree> lol
21:15:03 <ult> racism isn't always against minorities.
21:15:14 <ree> I went to a almost all black school once =)
21:15:27 <ree> got hit on by a big black girl, think she liked me
21:15:29 <ult> The principle at the school was black and VERY racist and refuse to do anything about my problems because the majority of my tormentors were black city punks.
21:15:36 <ree> but by hit on, I mean really hit on
21:15:59 <ult> you got the shit beat ouut of you by a big black girl too?
21:16:09 <ree> hah, never got beat up
21:16:11 <ult> I did once...that bitch must have weighed in at 500
21:16:13 <ree> but she was damn bossy
21:16:16 <ult> She was like godzilla.
21:16:18 <ree> lol
21:16:28 <ult> being 90 lbs sucks :)
21:16:29 <ree> like she was held back about forty years?
21:16:39 <ree> mine seemed like that too
21:16:40 <ult> yeah, and had a really bad attitude about it
21:17:03 <ree> funny thing is, I didn't really ever see a white or mexican at that school racially made fun of
21:17:11 <ree> even though there were some real "winners" 
21:17:22 <ree> we got in the paper every day for some sort of violent act
21:17:36 <ree> a girl almost choked to death her coach
21:17:47 <ree> people brought knifes to school all the time
21:18:16 <ree> you know what is sort of weird though
21:18:28 <ree> it seems that school systems that are in better areas
21:18:33 <ree> have worse time with hatred
21:18:43 <tcn> yeah!
21:18:45 <ree> this wasn't in the best area, it was a brand new school
21:18:53 <ree> people were assholes
21:18:53 <ree> but never that much
21:18:57 <ult> well
21:18:59 <ree> I didn't feel really bad going there
21:19:03 <ult> i went to a good highschool
21:19:09 <ult> there was lots of racism but it was mostly for show I think
21:19:22 <tcn> around here the downtown schools, everyone gets along pretty well.. the suburbs, it's like columbine..
21:19:22 <ult> there was no real race violence, just lots of talk.
21:20:28 <ree> tcn, just look were columbine happened, colorado of all places
21:20:31 <ree> yuppie ville
21:20:39 <ree> were/where
21:20:56 <ree> you may have daily knife events or even gun issues
21:20:58 <ree> fights and etc
21:21:04 <ree> at other schools 
21:21:08 <ree> in really bad areas
21:21:16 <ree> but you never have a columbine like massacre 
21:21:30 <ree> even though the "substitute" paints a different picture hehe
21:22:15 <tcn> right.. cause yuppie kids are assholes
21:22:41 <ult> well
21:22:47 <ree> it's not all yuppie kids
21:22:47 <ult> i believe part of columbine was still show
21:22:51 <ree> it's a specific type of yuppie kid
21:22:53 <ult> the kids don't think anything is real
21:22:53 <ult> its like they are on tv
21:23:14 <ree> I've gone to schools all across the country
21:23:20 <ree> from florida to arizona to california
21:23:45 <ree> west is all show
21:23:50 <ree> east seems to be a little safer
21:23:57 <ree> since everyone is run down in social affairs
21:24:08 <ree> west is all about what is best for me, screw others
21:24:28 <tcn> hehe just look at california
21:24:33 <ree> I'm sure there is a difference between north and south too
21:24:50 <ult> yes
21:24:53 <ult> a BIG fucking difference
21:24:54 <tcn> yeah, northerners really are kinda uptight
21:25:00 <ult> in the north they give a fuck about schools
21:25:00 <ult> in the south they do not
21:25:04 <ree> yeah ult
21:25:06 <tcn> heh
21:25:08 <ult> well
21:25:10 <ult> i guess i should say
21:25:14 <ree> florida schools are started then forgotten about it seems
21:25:22 <ult> in the north schools have a lot more educationaal importance, in the south, they have much more social importance.
21:25:31 <ult> in the south, school is a social event, and nothing more...
21:25:50 <tcn> it's gotten pretty bad up here too
21:26:09 <ree> bush is a good example of the outcome of a southern school system
21:26:09 <tcn> rofl
21:26:09 <ree> or lack thereof
21:26:24 <ree> he makes me sick inside
21:26:31 <ree> though there are parts I agree on
21:26:37 <ree> I just can't stand watching the guy
21:26:41 <ree> not that gore is any better
21:26:58 <tcn> right
21:27:13 <tcn> either we'd be seeing a repeat of the last administration or the 2nd to last :)
21:27:34 <ree> I don't think it'd be a repeat
21:27:37 <ree> of the last one
21:27:48 <ree> gore is much more environmental
21:28:08 <ree> but either way, given the state of congress
21:28:14 <ult> republicans don't have bad ideals
21:28:15 <ult> just bad reasons
21:28:47 <ree> they have ideals that they want to enforce completely
21:28:52 <ree> without acceptance of others
21:29:35 <ree> rather, their ideals don't embrace many viewpoints
21:29:46 <ree> since I don't think they have a complete understanding 
21:31:09 <ree> heh, mozilla crashes if you don't use the mouse to submit dialogs
21:31:19 <ree> often
21:31:26 <tcn> hah
21:31:29 <ree> yeah
21:31:37 <ree> I couldn't figure out the reason it was crashing all the time before
21:31:41 <tcn> did you read jwz's pages about the unix versions of netscrape?
21:31:50 <ree> then I finally realized
21:31:53 <ree> nope
21:32:10 <tcn> lemme find it
21:32:13 <ree> if you try to just hit enter, it'll crash a lot
21:32:23 <tcn> he said the unix versions were riddle with bugs
21:32:27 <ree> hehe, "systems minimalist"
21:33:40 <tcn> www.jwz.org/gruntle/nscpdorm.html
21:33:53 <tcn> netscrape diary :)
21:34:42 <ree> I run it from linux and display it on to my bsd X setup
21:34:51 <ree> linux with X was too unstable
21:35:11 <ree> bsd with a 1gb drive makes for a very nice tight system
21:35:22 <ree> and with this remote setup, it never even has to access the disk
21:35:40 <tcn> heh
21:35:52 <tcn> you don't like BSD accessing the disk?
21:35:57 <ree> well
21:35:59 <tcn> but linux is ok????
21:36:02 <ree> it's a slow 1gb drive
21:36:15 <tcn> slower than a lan
21:36:56 <ree> no
21:36:57 <ree> but installing 1gb of software isn't possible on a 1gb drive complete with X and etc
21:36:57 <ree> it's basic purpose is to serve the network and display
21:37:28 <tcn> i'm only using 800 meg on /usr
21:37:29 <ree> there are a few linux-only X programs too
21:37:37 <tcn> oh yeah
21:37:48 <ree> and I'd rather not try to run them under emu
21:38:03 <tcn> there's not much difference
21:38:09 <tcn> just the syscall interface
21:38:14 <ree> true
21:38:23 <ree> except, if it accesses any hardware at all
21:38:58 <tcn> how's that diffferent?
21:39:06 <ree> sound card
21:39:31 <ree> some things I've ran don't even run under linux emu
21:39:31 <tcn>  /dev/dsp?
21:39:48 <ree> staroffice doesn't seem to
21:39:59 <ree> it needs glibc now
21:40:07 <tcn> well that blows
21:40:41 <ree> the main issue is the memory issue
21:40:49 <ree> and processor power
21:41:11 <ree> I have 6 scsi drives in the other machine
21:41:14 <ree> and only 128mb of ram
21:41:15 <tcn> haha
21:41:24 <ree> 450mhz processor
21:41:43 <ree> I don't want to run a dualhead X on it and software that takes up half of the memory
21:42:03 <ree> plus I need to put all my diskspace together
21:42:28 <ree> I also run windows on that machine
21:42:34 <ree> and then use VNC to connect to it
21:42:51 <ree> I have some shitty devices that only work with windows
21:43:02 <ree> but the main use is to start dist
21:43:09 <ree> it'll need a lot of power/space
21:43:53 <tcn> oh
21:44:10 <tcn> a distribution?
21:44:46 <ree> no, development in science & technology
21:44:58 <ree> I have dist.org and dist.net
21:45:28 <ree> starting the dist system
21:46:38 <tcn> oh, no wonder
21:47:03 <ree> eh?
21:48:01 <tcn> all that horsepower :)
21:48:06 <ree> ohh, hehe
21:48:18 <ree> it's not much compared to today's standard
21:48:22 <ree> but it should be enough
21:48:30 <ree> this system will be implemented in asm
21:48:37 <tcn> hehe
21:48:42 <ree> just a serious of calls and addresses
21:48:46 <tcn> what's the difference between .net and .org?
21:48:55 <ree> org will host the organization information
21:49:11 <ree> net will contain the user accounts for projects people want to start
21:49:38 <ree> until we can replace all the underlying protocols of the net
21:49:40 <ult> org is supposed to be for non-profit organizations
21:49:45 <ree> yes
21:50:11 <ree> and..? heh
21:51:22 <tcn> is c3.org non-profit?
21:51:22 <ree> actually
21:51:22 <ree> there are a lot of profit based organizations 
21:51:22 <ree> that use .org
21:51:26 <ree> but dist will be for operating cost profits
21:51:49 <ree> all software, information, and etc will be for free
21:52:22 <tcn> so is this like a big repository of information?
21:52:30 <ree> basically
21:52:48 <ree> at first it will just be a set of principles people follow to construct a set of intelligence based on a certain process
21:52:59 <ree> that the dist central system can assimilate
21:53:05 <ree> until it can automate that process
21:53:15 <ree> sort of like a seti&home or distributed.net project
21:53:20 <ree> but for all information
21:54:32 <tcn> automate my ass ;)
21:54:44 <ree> hehe
21:55:04 <ree> create a project that describes your ass and it might =)
21:59:12 <ree> I'd like to map assembly and the x86 architecture with this
21:59:46 <ree> build some really simple abstract systems at first
22:00:11 <tcn> hey cool, I found a decent way to do my web pages: txt2html
22:00:18 <ree> hehe
22:00:49 <tcn> I'll need a makefile..
22:00:57 <ult> tcn: You too?!?!
22:00:57 <tcn> ult: hahaha
22:00:57 <ult> Aggh! my secret isout!!
22:01:03 <tcn> where's your page?
22:01:06 <ree> I still construct by hand
22:01:12 <ree> with a simple set design
22:02:11 <tcn> I find the tags redundant so I had started regressing to .txt
22:02:34 <tcn> one thing I hate about html is the expectation that hyperlinks will show some alternate text instead of the actual URL
22:02:39 <ree> heh
22:03:03 <ree> well
22:03:03 <ree> that isn't the only reason
22:03:03 <ree> you can use them so they make links of other types of data
22:03:05 <ree> like images
22:05:13 <tcn> SGML in all incarnations, sucks
22:05:45 <ree> do you think any layered approach like protocols are good?
22:06:29 <ree> it isn't just link layer, ip, tcp, http, html
22:06:41 <ree> it's about a million different things in between each of those
22:07:37 <tcn> yeah, I think it's good
22:08:03 <ree> you do?
22:08:09 <ree> I dislike it all
22:08:17 <tcn> what would you do?
22:08:47 <ree> make a single set of infinitely expandable logic sets
22:09:55 <ree> like this reflective address based system
22:09:55 <ree> that the dist system is made of
22:10:07 <ree> no static code
22:10:41 <tcn> _is_ made of, or _will be_?
22:10:45 <ree> no issues with ten year old protocols finally getting implemented properly
22:10:49 <ree> will be
22:10:52 <ree> starting to be
22:11:24 <tcn> well I wish I knew what a logic set is
22:11:52 <ree> heh, sorry, I'm sort of sharing a snapshot release of my mind
22:12:11 <ree> I study things over and over, and as the years progress, I get even less coherent
22:12:18 <ree> to the outside world
22:12:45 <ree> you could represent a logic set as a base functionality of a system
22:12:58 <ree> like assembly has its mneumonics
22:13:09 <ree> C has variables, functions, and etc
22:13:46 <ree> tcp has a communication model that includes headers that follow a specific standard
22:13:47 <ree> html has a set of syntax rules
22:14:15 <ree> if you could take all of the functionality, break it down to a fundamental level
22:14:55 <ree> unify the structure in other words
22:15:21 <ree> you'd have to redesign everything, down to the component level
22:15:34 <ree> figure out all logical operations (logic sets)
22:15:46 <ree> and make a system capable of being expanded in the most efficient manner 
22:16:56 <tcn> i dunno
22:17:18 <tcn> whoa this is wierd.. computing in darkness
22:17:31 <ree> I do that all the time heh
22:20:48 <ree> this is a life long project I want to do though
22:21:04 <ree> whether it works out or not isn't necessary =)
22:23:52 <ree> Microsoft is casually announcing that the new version of its Windows operating system will be "Internet-ready, right out of the box." Such promises may be mere braggadocio
22:23:59 <ree> hehe
22:24:09 <ree> I love reading old internet related articles
22:24:44 <ree> even today, we use the same technology from 30 years ago
22:24:46 <ree> we just use it _better_
22:25:36 <ree> all the promisses of it
22:25:50 <ree> 99% of them are still not seen
22:28:05 <ree> hehe
22:28:13 <ree> this old mosaic article 
22:28:15 <ree> on wired
22:28:22 <tcn> better??
22:28:32 <ree> almost all of the "cool links" it has to go to
22:28:34 <tcn> or just more liberally?
22:28:36 <ree> are hosted off of .edu
22:28:46 <tcn> hehe
22:29:33 <tcn> the goold ol' days
22:29:33 <ree> remember that time
22:29:33 <ree> yep
22:29:33 <ree> search engines and etc
22:29:33 <ree> tcn, better in terms of hardware support
22:29:41 <ree> it isn't really software that has advanced
22:29:50 <ree> but hardware still isn't advanced as it can be
22:29:57 <ree> it's seemingly fast
22:30:05 <ree> but it isn't built in a modular way
22:30:10 <ree> like talia was talking about
22:30:24 <ree> we've got an idea of how to build some hardware systems
22:31:05 <tcn> right
22:36:39 <tcn> there we go.. nice monocrome green look for my web page
22:37:06 <ree> hah
22:37:09 <ree> where is your web page?
22:37:11 <tcn> just add that right into txt2html so they all look like that
22:37:18 <tcn> i haven't uploaded this yet
22:37:35 <tcn> but it's tunes.org/~tcn
22:38:33 <ree> heh
22:38:41 <ree> tunes
22:38:44 <ree> cool, I'll check it out
22:42:54 <ree> forth os =)
22:44:11 <ree> I find text interfaces more intuitive actually
22:44:14 <ree> I might do that as well
22:44:17 <ree> with dist
22:44:29 <ree> but I think it is easier to read white on black 
22:47:22 <ree> I was thinking of releasing software portitions that clashed with patents as stories
22:47:40 <ree> then release a specific parser that turns it into a binary
22:49:02 <ree> they have linux running on a dreamcast btw
22:49:04 <ree> heh
22:50:22 <tcn> cool
22:50:28 <tcn> w/ keyboard?
22:50:38 <ree> yeah, I believe so
22:50:44 <tcn> i'm there dude :)
22:50:48 <ree> hah
22:50:52 <ree> it was a slashdot article
22:51:04 <tcn> except i'll use forth.. fuck linux
22:51:04 <ree> so you might want to search for it
22:51:13 <ree> yeah
22:51:31 <ree> I think a language as the os is a great idea
22:51:37 <tcn> that's what I've wanted for my next machine for the past year or so, since they started putting stuff like USB ports on console games
22:52:03 <ree> you could port the first forth system to it =)
22:52:23 <ree> granted I'm sure it runs C forth, but yours would be a forth os
22:53:16 <ree>  If you're going to give away software, there's no point in attaching
22:53:16 <ree> conditions like the GPL (if you don't know what that is, look up gnu.org).
22:53:20 <ree> exactly my feelings
22:54:10 <ree> I'll be releasing dist info as PD
22:55:18 <ree> btw, jpeg is patented too
22:55:39 <ree> ibm and another company(ies)
22:56:20 <ree> anonymously publish
22:56:39 <ree> maybe develop a network that has no central repository
22:56:42 <ree> like free net
22:57:21 <tcn> jpeg???
22:57:30 <ree> yes
22:57:48 <ree> ibm has a number of patents on various still-free web implementations
22:57:49 <tcn> is it remotely legitimate?
22:57:59 <ree> they helped make it I believe
22:58:06 <ree> they just don't enforce it
22:58:34 <tcn> like they'll ever be able to
22:58:35 <ree> they are more business oriented, they don't sweat the small stuff
22:58:47 <ree> well, it isn't like unisys
22:58:57 <ree> they didn't hide the fact
22:59:23 <ree> or get the patent after it happened
22:59:23 <tcn> what about PNG?
22:59:32 <ree> no, I think png circumvents ip
22:59:45 <ree> using patents that have expired
23:00:01 <ree> the original author of the actual compression used
23:00:04 <ree> is a cool guy
23:00:08 <tcn> and there's some work on a standard vector graphics format
23:00:13 <ree> he implemented several of the algorithms
23:00:33 <ree> forget his name
23:00:55 <ree> but then all the big firms/companies worked around his work and made patents
23:01:05 <ree> until he couldn't even release his own work
23:02:08 <ree> several of his algorithms "infringed" on them
23:02:08 <ree> even though they predated
23:04:51 <tcn> fucked up
23:05:04 <ree> heh, ghostbusters was good =)
23:05:13 <tcn> haha
23:05:22 <ree> some of my favorite actors where in it
23:05:24 <tcn> you must be the first person to read my bullshit pages
23:05:37 <ree> hah
23:05:39 <ree> I love text pages
23:05:44 <ree> they are addictive
23:05:55 <ree> I start reading them, and can't stop usually
23:06:09 <tcn> yeah.. like jwz.org :)
23:06:39 <tcn> i should start writing stories again, and post them there
23:06:45 <ree> blair witch project was so damn stupid
23:06:52 <ult> 1 or 2?
23:06:55 <ult> hehehe
23:07:01 <ree> 1
23:07:09 <ree> heh, I liked blade
23:08:02 <ree> spaceballs
23:08:08 <ree> I own the video and book
23:08:44 <tcn> haha
23:08:55 <tcn> u don't have the flamethrower?
23:09:00 <ree> the only movie that I've read the book to
23:09:04 <ree> hah
23:09:33 <ree> are you kidding, those are the times I remember from child hood =)
23:10:10 <tcn> most of the guys at work know the lines :)
23:10:48 <tcn> comes up every week or so
23:10:52 <ree> hah
23:11:10 <ree> hmm
23:11:20 <ree> maybe you should work on a forth module for the bsd kernel
23:11:32 <ree> run forth programs natively
23:12:38 <tcn> kinda like what was done for java?
23:12:44 <ree> yeah
23:13:15 <ree> be a whole lot faster, and less abstracted
23:13:29 <ree> you could replace the entire kernel functionality even
23:13:35 <tcn> haha
23:13:51 <ree> heh, no kidding
23:13:57 <ree> people could write drivers in forth
23:14:05 <ree> or guis =)
23:14:15 <tcn> graphic drivers
23:14:22 <ree> I saw the forth chip info
23:14:27 <tcn> for the framebuffer
23:14:28 <ree> you could do a entire gui in a few k
23:14:40 <tcn> yup
23:14:50 <tcn> and it would run standalone too, with no OS
23:15:14 <ree> I think the important part is bringing it to a larger audience
23:15:52 <ree> if all they have to do in order to use it is compile it and load it using a module load util
23:16:39 <ree> they should move everything to the kernel
23:16:49 <ree> away from X
23:17:30 <tcn> heh
23:17:55 <tcn> well.. it's fucking late
23:18:12 <ree> yep
23:18:21 <ree> I didn't wake up until 7pm
23:18:37 <ree> done with the web browser yet?
23:18:42 <ree> begun 3/3/00
23:21:00 <tcn> heheh
23:21:10 <ree> heh, i440r does isforth
23:24:05 <tcn> i that on my page?
23:24:13 <ree> ohh, no
23:24:19 <ree> I remember seeing this before
23:24:22 <ree> just forgot about it
23:26:35 <tcn> it'll be nice when i can ditch Gforth
23:26:45 <ree> I'm with charles moore on the issue
23:26:51 <ree> vs ANS
23:28:04 <tcn> it's a joke
23:28:17 <tcn> absolutely worthless
23:28:32 <ree> that's what I get from reading ultratechnology.com
23:28:32 <tcn> oh well.. i'm done for tonight
23:28:36 <ree> heh, ok
23:28:37 <tcn> see ya
23:28:40 <ree> have a good night
23:28:45 --- quit: tcn (ircII EPIC4-2000 -- Accept no limitations)
23:58:10 --- quit: goshawk` (Ping timeout for goshawk`[agreen.dialup.cloud9.net])
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/00.12.21