00:00:00 --- log: started forth/00.12.20 00:02:36 --- quit: Talia` (ShadowIRC 1.0.3 PPC) 00:13:01 --- join: BC_V (unlimited@ptai01m01-2.bctel.ca) joined #forth 00:15:50 --- quit: BC_V (ByeByeByeByeBye) 00:16:12 --- join: Speuler (l@c38038.upc-c.chello.nl) joined #forth 00:16:39 g'd morning 00:19:27 --- quit: Speuler (cIRCus 0.43 - http://www.nijenrode.nl/~ivo/circus/) 00:58:08 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@agreen.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 01:18:20 --- join: mark4 (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 01:18:33 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 01:19:27 --- quit: NaN (later) 01:20:40 hi Talia` 01:52:54 --- quit: I440r (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net) 01:52:54 --- quit: Talia` (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net) 01:52:54 --- quit: ult (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net) 01:54:00 --- join: ult (ultima@bespin.org) joined #forth 01:54:00 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@agreen.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 01:54:00 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 02:16:55 --- join: NaN (emp@oles23.in-tch.com) joined #forth 04:15:13 --- quit: Talia` (ShadowIRC 1.0.3 PPC) 04:37:58 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.27) joined #forth 04:42:57 --- join: Talia` (goshawk@agreen.dialup.cloud9.net) joined #forth 04:43:17 =) 04:48:54 --- part: edrx left #forth 05:08:51 --- quit: Talia` (I'm up to my neck in snow...) 07:01:31 --- join: fare (fare@st-lambert-101-2-idealx2.adsl.nerim.net) joined #forth 09:03:23 --- join: Johan4Jesus (jrus@cisap5-d-176.pop.co.za) joined #forth 09:03:58 the Lowell 09:04:29 anybody here 09:05:07 how will be back data 09:05:13 --- part: Johan4Jesus left #forth 10:39:16 --- join: andydude (newbie@pool0252.cvx32-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net) joined #forth 10:39:27 --- nick: andydude -> adu 11:03:26 --- part: adu left #forth 11:39:59 --- join: Free (user4503@209.105.115.17) joined #forth 11:40:11 --- part: Free left #forth 11:41:32 hi fare 11:51:18 --- quit: fare (Connection reset by pear) 12:21:29 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 12:23:25 hi mrreach! 12:23:34 hihi! 12:23:46 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r 12:23:53 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o MrReach 12:23:55 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o NaN 12:24:00 --- mode: I440r set mode: +v ult 12:24:02 hehehe 12:24:05 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o ult 12:24:24 heh NaN, what a nick @:^> 12:24:44 whats wrong with nan ? 12:25:08 not a thing, I was trying to say I thought it a clever nick 12:25:39 well, actually ... 12:26:18 "Purple Ribbon Liz's Nan Wee Toy" was the family dog when I was growing up. We called her "Nan" or "Nanny" 12:28:40 hehe 12:45:06 --- join: andydude (newbie@pool0140.cvx32-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net) joined #forth 12:48:37 --- nick: andydude -> adu 12:52:26 adu == andydude ??? hehe 12:52:28 cool :) 12:52:30 yes 12:52:32 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o adu 12:52:51 hihi 12:52:59 i found that typing in andydude became combersome for other people 12:54:21 besides simplicity is the father of confision 12:54:26 or something like that 12:54:29 whatever 12:54:32 n/m 12:54:35 * MrReach laughs. 12:58:00 heheh 12:58:13 yea people do get overly confised with simplicity 12:58:16 thats why they like c 12:58:20 its complex 13:01:45 hahaha 13:01:46 funny 13:01:55 i think c is just fancy asm 13:02:09 so is Forth, actually 13:02:18 because its kinda the "no-brainer" language when writing something directly for computers 13:02:35 does "good for banging bits" == "fancy ASM"?? 13:02:48 linus had some pretty cool insights in Linux Mag... 13:03:03 banging bits? i don't understand 13:03:11 erm 13:03:15 c is fucked up man 13:03:23 its no where near "fancy asm" 13:03:34 it has so many deficiencies its unreal 13:03:41 c's syntax lacks something to be desired, but it can do a lot 13:04:24 thats what i'm saying 13:04:27 hey, something's been bothering me about Forth, maybe you two can shine some light on the idea ... 13:04:37 its similar to asm in the sence that it can do alot 13:04:43 sure 13:04:51 Forth, as a language, is extremely powerful, that can't really be argued 13:05:18 but why isn't Forth chosen for large/complex high-powered applications? 13:05:27 I mean more than it is. 13:07:18 because it's not as widely used? 13:07:25 as c 13:07:44 well, obviously 13:08:09 but I'm beginning to think that Forth has some fundamental limitation that I really can't get my hands on 13:09:12 in what way? 13:09:28 its like asm i guess 13:09:51 well my dad had a prioblem that took ages to solve 13:10:00 on the 8051 you hvae different memory areas 13:10:01 internal ram 13:10:04 external ram 13:10:25 how do you tell the c compiler that the buffer you are pointing to is in EXTERNAL ram 13:10:31 so taht a = *p 13:10:33 compiles 13:10:34 a 13:10:40 adu: I dont' know. Maybe people don't adapt easily to RPN? 13:10:47 movx a,@dptr 13:10:51 instead of a 13:10:54 mov a,@dptr 13:11:07 rpn? 13:11:09 adu: maybe people don't like forth because it doesn't come shipped with all the tools and whistles? 13:11:19 rpn=Reverse Polish Notation 13:11:39 rpn= param1 param2 operation 13:11:43 hehe 13:12:02 maybe, but ANS forth has lots of bells and whistles 13:13:36 i4: tell the C comp that it is in external RAM with a "segment" type construct 13:14:25 nope 13:14:41 well yes and no 13:14:57 the compiler itself had some extentions built ionto it to account for this 13:15:11 but its not standardised how this is done, 13:15:15 much digging around in the documentation 13:15:21 different compilers for different controlers do it differently 13:15:38 8051 is weird it has 4 different memory spaces 13:15:40 internal ram 13:15:42 external ram 13:15:47 special function registers 13:15:50 and code 13:16:21 yep, rather complex, esp for c compiler 13:19:33 --- quit: adu (tolkien.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net) 13:19:33 --- quit: ult (tolkien.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net) 13:20:31 --- join: ult (ultima@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:20:31 --- mode: pohl.openprojects.net set mode: +ov ult ult 13:24:35 --- quit: ult (barnes.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net) 13:26:55 --- join: ult (ultima@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:26:55 --- mode: pohl.openprojects.net set mode: +ov ult ult 13:36:12 --- quit: ult (tolkien.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net) 13:42:01 --- join: ult (ultima@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:42:01 --- mode: pohl.openprojects.net set mode: +ov ult ult 14:10:54 --- quit: MrReach () 15:30:19 --- quit: I440r (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net) 15:30:19 --- quit: NaN (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net) 15:30:19 --- quit: ult (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net) 15:32:40 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 15:32:40 --- join: NaN (emp@oles23.in-tch.com) joined #forth 15:32:40 --- join: ult (ultima@bespin.org) joined #forth 15:32:40 --- mode: barnes.openprojects.net set mode: +ooov I440r NaN ult ult 16:27:30 --- join: tcn (Tom@207.198.30.45) joined #forth 16:27:30 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o tcn 16:27:35 hey 16:41:05 --- quit: tcn (Ping timeout for tcn[207.198.30.45]) 17:00:18 --- join: tcn (Tom@207.198.30.63) joined #forth 17:05:26 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@ppp-99.u1-h1.dca.fcc.net) joined #forth 17:05:26 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 17:05:30 hiya all 17:19:49 hey tbw 19:18:08 --- log: started forth/00.12.20 19:18:08 --- join: clog (nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 19:18:08 --- names: list (clog @ult @NaN @tcn @TheBlueWizard @I440r) 19:18:08 --- names: EOL 19:18:54 and plan9, _everything_ is a file, with a lightweight filesystem kinda like /proc 19:19:00 yeah... 19:19:14 NO 19:19:26 everything is not a file 19:19:26 everything is a file system 19:19:26 except in forth, vocabularies can be filesystems 19:19:26 There is a VERY important difference 19:19:41 processes aren't files though 19:20:38 ok.. say you've got your Root vocab, Forth vocab, and a vocab for the root directory 19:21:51 the former are normal vocabularies, but the latter searches a filesystem 19:21:51 :) 19:22:09 --- mode: TheBlueWizard set mode: +o clog 19:22:09 each vocab has a pointer to it's search/add/delete routines 19:22:40 call it 'fstype' or something 19:22:40 sounds like oop to me 19:23:11 why have a different routine to search each ? 19:23:12 add to each 19:23:17 etc 19:23:31 use the same code on different data 19:23:34 no, only a few types of FS 19:24:43 not /ping #forth 19:24:53 actually 'fstype' shouldn't be a pointer, just a single byte, index into a table 19:24:53 argh 19:25:42 that gives a max of 255 different fs types 19:25:44 and a 1 based table :P 19:26:13 then, FIND goes through your search order.. for each vocab it takes the fstype, looks it up in the table, runs the appropriate version of FIND 19:26:33 but why have differnt TYPES of find 19:26:36 i dont get it 19:27:38 one's for normal vocabs in RAM, one's for files on disk, one's for networked filesystems, etc... 19:28:43 one might be for dll's 19:28:43 erm why subject your forth to that sort of bs.... 19:30:00 so you can treat everything like it's part of forth 19:30:07 it came tio me while i was getting more food 19:30:11 hehe 19:30:17 even the files on the disk are WORDS 19:30:49 erm np 19:30:51 no 19:30:53 yeah, and they push file-id's :) 19:30:55 that would be realy bad 19:31:15 lets say i had a word that was a mix of code and files 19:31:42 just so u can differentiate ill write the def in lower case for words, uppercase for files 19:31:54 : blah xyzzy 123 FOOBAR blah blah drop ; 19:31:54 well 19:32:04 what if someone deletes foobar 19:32:44 or does the FILE get compiled into the definition in its entirety 19:32:46 erm 19:32:49 it would never work 19:33:49 filenames would most likely have to be strings 19:34:11 no 19:34:27 could be literal file numbers 19:34:40 but ever file on every system would have to have a unique id 19:34:46 inode numbers? 19:35:17 yeah 19:35:17 unique.. for a while 19:35:17 not all file systems use inodes 19:35:17 no 19:35:17 unique 19:35:17 i wrote thath definition 10 years ago 19:35:17 hehe 19:35:19 the original file is log gone 19:35:26 yup 19:35:28 but theres another one now with the same name but 19:35:36 it does something totally different 19:35:42 files are too transient 19:35:45 you cant do this 19:36:34 ok, nevermind 19:36:38 :) 19:37:01 neway did u get that asm working??? :) 19:37:01 but this redirection thing is cool 19:37:11 yea i recon it could have some uses maybe.. 19:37:11 with overlays ? 19:37:52 say, >OUT ( fid - ) and could be useful for memory allocation too.. use a pipe as a queue :) 19:39:42 oh yeah, I got the asm working, want a DCC? 19:39:48 yea 19:41:11 just search for 'terminal' 19:41:11 k :) 19:41:11 0% complete 19:41:29 did i get it ? 19:41:41 xchat says is 0% complete 19:41:41 it says you did 19:41:49 xchat sux 19:42:03 maybe that means 100% complete 19:44:29 i cant find console in there at all 19:44:29 'terminal' 19:44:29 oh 19:44:29 hehe 19:44:29 look again 19:44:29 thats not there either 19:44:29 no quotes 19:44:29 ;Setup terminal (Unix) 19:45:28 nope 19:45:28 not there 19:46:34 I sent you main.asm, right? 19:46:34 5386 bytes 19:46:34 ive found it 19:46:34 yes 19:46:34 i got main.asm 19:46:34 and 19:46:35 xchat saw i already had main.asm 19:46:42 hahahaa 19:46:43 and actually saved the file as main.asm.1 19:48:08 now I have to make it linux compatible 19:48:22 got to go...bye all! 19:48:36 l8er man 19:48:44 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:48:59 atually i like ur aidea about doing it in high level 19:49:36 i wonder if we could make syscall a defered word 19:49:50 and vector it to the linux or bsd versions 19:50:29 nah, don't include both versions in the output code 19:51:03 have two seperate kernel versions 19:51:03 yea i like that better to hehe 19:51:14 just INCLUDE LINUX or INCLUDE FREEBSD 19:51:20 well 19:51:33 include syslinux 19:51:33 or include sysbsd 19:52:13 do a 'uname' :) 19:52:46 unnecessary complication 19:53:09 erm 19:53:27 how would the system that uses syscalls to the exclusion of all else 19:53:32 execute that without doing a syscall ?? 19:53:35 eh ?? 19:53:37 :) 19:55:47 it would already be supported in the host compiler 19:56:37 OHH i get it 19:56:45 at meta compile time 19:56:45 well 19:57:00 what if i want to meta compile here for that machie there :P 19:57:00 hehe 19:57:10 sorry 19:57:10 im just a born trouble maker heh 19:57:57 heh 19:58:27 it's easy to cross compile 20:00:49 what do you say we get the nasm version working, then use that to run the metacompile? 20:00:49 instead of some crappy ans c forth 20:00:49 hehe 20:00:49 my point was 20:00:49 ok 20:00:49 ive got a very fast bsd machine 20:00:49 and a very slow linux machine 20:00:49 i want to compile my kernel identically for both 20:01:01 if i auto sense which syscall method to use 20:01:09 bsd wouldnt be able to compile for linux 20:01:28 right 20:01:43 well theres no reason for it to not be able to hehe 20:01:43 you'd have to manually override 20:01:43 ok 20:03:43 manyual override hehe 20:03:43 but it's not like ./configure 20:03:43 i hope not 20:03:43 we could have a 20:03:43 : ask-syscalls 20:03:43 we're not using libraries and crap.. all you need to know is your OS, and if you don't know that you'll never figure this out 20:03:43 ." which syscalls do you want to use" blah blaht do stuff blah " 20:03:43 ask-syscalls 20:03:43 in the source :P 20:03:43 heh 20:03:43 yeah... What version do you want? A. Linux B. FreeBSD C. Standalone 20:03:43 :) 20:03:43 you would define the word to ask that at the top of the source 20:03:43 and immediatly after defining it 20:03:43 call it 20:03:43 hehe 20:03:54 imagine 20:03:56 being able to use the c funciton you just compiled 20:04:06 as an extention to your compiler hehe 20:04:21 the c community woudl freak!!!!!!!!!!! 20:04:21 put this in a wrapper that just INCLUDEs the real code 20:04:21 PANIC!!! hgeheh 20:04:42 rite 20:04:53 the kernel would be target compiled 20:05:37 but this word would just be compiled 20:05:37 hehe.. did you know the next C is supposed to be interactive? 20:05:37 it wouldnt end up as deadwood in the new kernel 20:05:37 bleh 20:05:37 bullshit 20:05:37 but it's not like forth 20:05:37 it would be forth 20:05:37 spelled "c" 20:05:37 heh 20:05:57 I wonder how they plan to get around the C convention of putting everything in a function 20:06:09 :) 20:06:49 hey, do you know postscript? 20:06:49 no 20:06:49 i dont 20:06:49 but i iknwo its forth based 20:07:13 <-- jaxson has quit (E Pluribus Modem) 20:07:13 memememe 20:07:27 hehe even 20:07:32 hehe 20:07:56 i was reading a PS tutorial today.. it might have some things we could glean.. 20:08:09 someone asked in #linpeople the other day... 20:08:14 "when can you consider yourself a real linux user" 20:08:16 i answered 20:08:25 "when you uptime is greater than your iq" 20:08:26 heh 20:08:29 anahahah 20:08:44 wow 20:08:44 that is going to be REALLY hard for me. 20:09:31 no ult 20:09:31 u got a negative iq 20:09:31 my uptime is in hours.. 20:09:31 ur uptime has to go negative too for you to win 20:09:31 hahaha 20:09:31 i440r unfortunately they only measure IQ with a 32bit number system using signed integers :( 20:09:36 i had a 53 day uptime 20:09:43 followed by a 2 second power out 20:09:44 grrr 20:09:45 u moron 20:10:14 its all about the UPS :) 20:10:14 or don't you consider yourself a real user :) 20:10:24 hehe 20:10:32 ult is a user 20:10:36 ult is a god 20:10:42 but were not talking linux here 20:10:42 heh 20:10:42 the box they gave me to run unix at work likes to spontaneously reboot 20:10:47 hehe 20:10:49 ult is hungary 20:11:37 i'm typing today in a telnet session, and it just goes dead.. 20:11:37 I go over there and it's in the bootloader 20:11:50 hehehe 20:11:50 our electric service sucks, but this thing's on a ups 20:16:58 dammit 20:17:11 whut 20:17:49 it's hard to write a linux version of : syscall 20:17:49 no 20:17:49 its not 20:17:49 code syscall 20:17:49 int 0x80 20:17:49 next 20:17:49 code (syscall) even 20:17:49 one that takes arguments on the stack 20:18:02 tahts easy 20:18:02 and puts them in registers 20:18:02 oh 20:18:13 no 20:18:13 well 20:18:19 it would be eaiser if we started popping at eax 20:18:36 pop eax 20:18:36 erm 20:18:36 and there are a variable number of args 20:18:36 yes 20:18:44 mov cx into dx 20:18:49 (always 3, in my experience so far) 20:18:50 mov bx into cx 20:18:54 mov ax into bx 20:18:56 pop ax 20:19:05 pop into di for now 20:19:06 as a clunter 20:19:12 then shift all registes down 20:19:22 wait ill code it 20:19:36 code (syscall) 20:19:40 pop edi ; number of parameters 20:19:41 syscall ( args... #args syscall -- return ) 20:19:48 L1: 20:20:02 mov edx,ecx 20:20:02 mov ecx,ebx 20:20:05 mov ebx,eax 20:20:06 pop eax 20:20:09 dec edi 20:20:17 jne L1 20:20:17 int 0x80 20:20:19 push eax 20:20:21 next 20:20:23 that would work 20:20:28 for most syscalls 20:20:43 ok 20:20:43 but there are some syscalls taht use mnore regges 20:21:02 yeah, it takes longer than in Unix but it works :) 20:21:09 :) 20:21:27 the syscall itself is going to take so long that the extra time to set up wont matter 20:21:38 well 20:21:39 on linux 20:21:45 all syscalls can use all registers 20:21:48 you are gaurunteed nothing 20:22:01 u gotta save ebp and esi ?> 20:22:03 argh 20:22:20 pusha 20:23:03 followed by popa 20:23:03 you gotta store them in RAM??? 20:23:03 mov [save_esp],esp 20:23:03 Linux sucks for various reasons 20:23:03 hmmm 20:23:03 Oneof which is the fact that it has INCREDIBLY expensive syscalls 20:23:07 save esp on return stack? 20:23:23 where do u put return stack 20:23:24 hehe 20:23:36 --- quit: NaN (Ping timeout for NaN[oles23.in-tch.com]) 20:23:36 saving esp on return stack is neat 20:23:36 but 20:23:37 it doesn't fuck with the stack 20:23:44 erm 20:23:44 who saves ebo ? 20:23:50 push all the regs, then save esp in a fixed memory location 20:23:59 only need to save eis and ebp 20:24:00 --- join: NaN (emp@oles23.in-tch.com) joined #forth 20:24:01 oh 20:24:02 ip and rp 20:24:12 so it guarantees that much 20:24:16 push ip to return stack 20:24:25 argh 20:24:34 this is a gordian knot 20:24:34 grr 20:24:36 this code wouldn't run if it fucked with the stacks 20:24:44 but it runs, right? 20:24:52 hehe 20:24:52 erm 20:24:59 i bet it doesnt runj in all cases tho 20:25:16 any syscall needs to save ebp and esi and ebx i remember now 20:25:21 tos is in ebx :( 20:25:38 yup 20:25:38 so 20:25:40 code (syscall) 20:25:46 mov edi,ebx 20:25:50