00:00:17 --- log: started forth/00.12.16 00:00:17 MrReach u can take your server down 00:00:53 ok, thanks 00:01:01 who is left? 00:01:09 sorry to hear about the schizophrenia, that's rough 00:01:13 MrReach a/s/l 00:01:23 i am 39/m/south africa 00:01:33 o fine u at my page 00:01:44 please check if my CV is still there 00:01:51 CV? 00:02:12 there should e linkj at the top 00:02:22 one link to a poem 00:02:35 second link to job desciption 00:02:45 ok 00:03:24 yep, the three main links seem to work fine 00:04:27 tks now we can dispense with personal info question about me 00:05:28 * MrReach grins. 00:05:35 So how did you come across Forth? 00:05:43 o u there 00:05:59 this channel 00:06:08 ? 00:06:15 This is your first exposure to forth? 00:06:23 beg parden? 00:06:35 in hackers underground secret mission targets for next century 00:06:44 no 00:06:54 i have used forth since 1982 00:06:57 ok 00:07:11 but not lately really 00:07:21 i have had no need 2 00:07:37 yes, it is not really built well for large systems 00:09:17 thats not its primary objective 00:09:27 not originally, no 00:09:48 writing windowing apps wasn't C's primary objective, either 00:10:26 no r u contributing 00:10:32 or just using? 00:10:49 just using right now 00:11:03 to the development of isforth 00:11:08 but, like every other Forth user, I dream of someday rolling my own 00:11:15 can u give me any pointers 00:11:22 oh? isForth? mostly just commentary 00:11:37 o i have done that kinda already 00:11:39 pointers to forth systems? 00:11:53 i have took poly forth level 2 00:12:03 check out Taygeta Scientific, they hold the unofficial fourth repository 00:12:27 wrote a 86 dissambler and a high level dissambler for it 00:12:45 http://www.taygeta.com/forth.html 00:12:52 * MrReach nods. 00:12:54 and then recreated the system byte for byte in forth 00:13:12 I wrote a sub-threaded forth in 93 or so 00:13:33 MrReach: i am a c programmer who looked at forth and thinks it's cool, and would like to get to use it. any suggestions? 00:13:35 it wasn't very ahrd 00:13:54 what environ will you be using it in? 00:14:01 MrReach: linux 00:14:08 aaronl_ get a c source for forth 00:14:15 then GForth is probably your best choice 00:14:24 and run a intertreper in your appl 00:14:34 yes, that is what GForth does 00:14:37 mmmkay 00:14:40 i played with pforth a bit 00:14:48 i have gforth installed though 00:14:58 how do you like it? 00:15:12 what do you reccomend doing to get acquanted with the languages? I'm a GUI programmer and haven't done any embedded stuff or anything 00:15:30 I4 would probably whack me upside the head to hear me recommend GForth 00:15:43 r u lieing aaronl_ i am looking at your computer and see no forth 00:15:54 lol jk 00:16:09 aaron: the best sample app is probably a file manager, even though there's already bazillions of them 00:16:28 MrReach: As a CLI? GUI? Core only? 00:16:38 you get to work with file management, file times, user interface, parsing various filetypes, etc 00:17:06 aaron: that depends on what type of experience you think you need 00:17:18 well 00:17:24 i dont _need_ any experience 00:17:30 i just think forth is fun as a language 00:17:32 I would suggest a text-based windowed interface, like Midnight Commander 00:17:37 one good application is graphics 00:17:44 i learned postscript and am having fun with it 00:17:46 it is much like forth 00:17:55 oof! yeah, it sure is 00:18:39 If you experiment with XWin at the socket interface level, I'd like to hear about your successes/failures 00:18:55 heeh 00:19:00 xwin at the socket level must not be fun 00:19:09 or even at the library level, maybe 00:19:12 aaronl_ u need now experience , well that shows or tell u r inexperienced 00:19:41 my take was that he had lots of experience, but not in forth 00:19:46 MrReach i want to do vector graphics 00:20:11 did he leave 00:20:22 he is 15 i think 00:20:24 ok, GForth has a generalized shared library interface, although it's not well documented 00:20:47 who aaron? no he's here, prob busy in another channel 00:20:52 is the sourca aviable 00:20:58 yes, it is 00:21:15 the latest GForth has a pentium assembler built in 00:21:16 o yes i see him 00:21:25 where can i getgforth 00:21:32 which is handy, even if it is a C forth 00:21:36 gforth 00:21:42 just a sec, get the URL 00:21:42 lets take it out 00:21:52 o i c 00:21:55 i am here 00:22:03 no do not bother 00:22:14 i c 00:22:24 u r 15 or did i made a mistake 00:22:34 if so i aolize 00:22:39 i am 15 00:22:45 apologize 00:22:48 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/ 00:22:57 tks i am 39 u know 00:23:03 i've been coding for 4 or 5 years now 00:25:18 just setting up downloading 00:25:40 aaronl_ how long u been coming to forth channel 00:25:57 MrReach downloading software 00:26:14 as you please 00:26:25 hope it serves your needs 00:26:25 Johan4Jesus: few months 00:26:51 be sure to get the HTML docs ... and everything.zip 00:27:30 I guess it's called gforth.html now 00:29:27 MrReach your time? 00:29:59 12:31 am 00:30:04 ./ 00:30:35 k u r running on linux now right? 00:30:36 ./ctcp mrreach TIME 00:30:45 no, Win98 00:30:45 which version? 00:30:56 which hardware 00:31:00 I have a linux 2.2.19 box next to me though 00:31:06 i am on winME now 00:31:18 it's on a pentium 133/48 megs 00:31:30 is it redhat 00:31:37 the winblows in K6/2-360/128mbram 00:31:47 or your own brew 00:31:54 it's a redhat derivitive called Mandrake 00:32:14 heh, don't ever want to try compiling glibc myself again @:^> 00:32:16 i have 7.1 on mine 00:32:37 why not? 00:32:47 I mangled my system last time I tried 00:32:53 (inexperience) 00:33:18 i started fooling around with kernel , that was my first entry 00:33:28 i wanna my sound card to work 00:33:42 so i wrote/changed the device driver 00:33:52 was lots of fun 00:34:02 i started with WinLinux 00:34:12 and please it is not Linux under windows 00:34:36 is just uses umsdos and installs from windows 00:35:01 right, I've used it 00:35:13 pretty nifty, except it clutters up the C: drive 00:35:27 they should use a vertual FS for the install 00:35:47 yes i have moved from it too 00:35:52 johan: which sound system did you write for? 00:36:00 i got the redhat CD 6.1 00:36:12 ess1868 00:36:29 i was not connected to the net for long then 00:36:42 no, I meant linux driver system 00:36:55 there's two or three cometing for permancy on Linux 00:37:12 i have no clue 00:37:15 permanent ... permanency (blah) 00:37:26 was it the /dev/dsp driver? 00:37:26 it was about a year ago 00:37:42 or /dev/sound ? 00:37:48 i just modify the c source 00:37:56 ok, no biggie 00:37:58 i have no clue really 00:38:20 i midified the driver source code in kernel 00:38:32 somebody wrote a driver that behaves very much like the DirectSound architecture on Windows, it works beautifully 00:38:39 i was like using kde on one hand 00:39:00 and vi in otherway 00:39:11 what is it called 00:39:19 hmm ... doesn't KDE run a server, I think called soundd ? 00:39:43 i do not really know 00:39:54 i think so 00:40:14 anyway, I _really_ like the new system, I hope it becomes a regular part of distros 00:40:36 it will if its good 00:40:54 which mandrake do u use? 00:41:09 and what is your aim with linux / forth / etc 00:41:18 if you open /dev/dsp , it sets up a virtual sound device (of which there might be 100s) mixes the sound in real-time, including effects, and sends it out whatever card is installed. 00:41:26 what r your interest of things u wanna play with 00:41:47 when we started, we needed linux in a corporate environment because of its reliability as a server 00:42:23 so now I'm running Redhat/Mandrake 7.2 00:42:43 who is taygeta 00:43:14 what I'd LIKE to do is write a cross-platform Forth with as much compatibility and regularity of interface as TCL/TK 00:43:44 okay i wanna help 00:43:57 how do we go about it 00:44:00 I forget the name of the guy that maintains it (Jeff Hobbs perhaps?) but he worked at taygeta and they let him maintain a Forth repository there 00:44:10 it grew to be the largest, and then the defacto 00:44:40 hmm 00:44:41 Taygeta, the name, actually comes from a star 00:44:46 u guys here use windows, right? 00:44:50 I need a dos boot disk 00:44:55 I use both, yes 00:45:00 can someone do me the favor of making one and sending an image? 00:45:05 need to upgrade my BIOS 00:45:05 I4 won't touch windows 00:45:29 good for him 00:45:46 Johan: you up for that? 00:46:02 aar: what do you need in the image? 00:46:10 yes i will try walk me thru it 00:46:15 MrReach: DOS, and these two files: 00:46:16 http://www.soyo.com.tw/utility/awdflash.exe 00:47:14 ok, I'm gonna have to hunt around fro rawrite a bit 00:48:01 aaronl_ u naughty boy , u stole MrReach from me 00:48:21 MrReach: it's in debian's dosutils on the ftp server 00:48:54 ...and i also need ftp://ftp.soyo.com.tw/bios/586new/5EMPVEA1.BIN 00:49:14 I'm still here, disk is formating now 00:49:45 MrReach: try ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/potato/main/disks-i386/current/dosutils/rawrite2.exe 00:49:45 MrReach: thanks a bunch 00:50:09 aaronl_ why do u not rnn dosemu? 00:50:28 Johan4Jesus: I dont know how; it would be a pain to set it up 00:50:59 i do not know either 00:51:06 dosemu is an emulator. i dont think it would let it touch the real bios... 00:51:28 perhaps if you ran it as root 00:51:30 no just to make the boot disk 00:51:45 and then u use freedos 00:51:49 well, i would need a copy of dos for dosemu in the first place :) 00:51:53 yeah freedos 00:52:04 too late now though 00:52:30 i have in my 7.1 mandrake freedos 00:52:38 why 2 late? 00:52:50 Johan4Jesus: MrReach is already making a physical disk 00:53:10 i know 00:54:03 rawrite doesn't do what I want ... what's its inverse? rawread? 00:54:39 well 00:54:51 i tend to cat /dev/fd0 > file 00:54:57 if you booted into linux i guess you could do that 00:55:06 MrReach use cp /dev/fd0 dosimage.img 00:55:19 Johan4Jesus: that wont work 00:55:20 heh, except I'm in windows 00:55:25 /dev/fd0 is a special device file 00:55:31 MrReach: I'm sure there's a disk imager... 00:55:51 ahha 00:55:53 raread 00:55:54 http://www.tavi.co.uk/os2pages/rawrite.html 00:55:59 http://www.tavi.co.uk/os2pages/utils/raread.zip 00:56:00 danke 00:56:07 google :) 01:00:27 aaronl_ sup/ 01:00:36 sup? 01:01:05 is everyone sleeping? 01:01:30 no 01:01:38 i am getting bored , i am gonna boot into linux soon in this pc if no one wakes up 01:01:58 I'll talk about an extended forth in a bit 01:02:00 MrReach what u doing besides chatting 01:02:14 THAT raread won't recognize my diskette drive 01:02:18 hunting for another 01:02:26 hmm 01:02:27 heh 01:02:40 i am gonna runaway runaway 01:02:51 * aaronl_ plots trying to convince I440r to write a free VGA BIOS so that Plex86 and Bochs can be truely free 01:02:59 to a far away linux land 01:03:08 http://download.sourceforge.net/mirrors/suse/loadlin/rawread.readme 01:03:10 heh 01:03:44 aaronl_ what is plex86 01:03:56 and bochs 01:04:22 no comprehendo 01:04:27 Johan4Jesus: Bochs is a PC emulator. Plex86 is a PC virtualizer' 01:04:31 by the same author 01:04:35 ok, there it goes 01:04:53 interesting thunking sound 01:04:54 plex86 is pretty cool... lets you have a virtual machine on an X86 that's not emulated 01:05:38 why do u need a vga bios 01:05:48 i do not undertsand 01:06:03 if u have a card , then u have bios 01:06:20 Johan4Jesus: Since they emulate a standard PC, they need to emulate a VGA card. Right now they use a commercial BIOS 01:07:00 r there not people doing that already 01:07:16 writing a free bios 01:07:33 yeah 01:07:39 but not a free VGA bios 01:08:08 why not? 01:08:27 is no one interested in doing it or what? 01:08:50 http://209.181.43.190:81/amdbio.img 01:08:59 hope there were no read/write errors 01:09:34 yes i see the sector 5 on track 8 head 1 is bad 01:09:44 i am psyhic 01:09:44 lol 01:09:46 ooops! 01:09:47 MrReach: thanks 01:09:56 http://209.181.43.190:81/AMDBIO.IMG 01:09:56 MrReach: did you get the two files on there? 01:10:01 yes, I did 01:10:04 thanks 01:10:15 * MrReach double-checks 01:10:27 tell us if it works 01:10:32 yup 01:10:37 we will know 01:10:45 johan: have you ever worked with TCL/TK? 01:10:48 if u not come back 01:10:56 heh, ever 01:11:06 we will ASS U ME the worst 01:11:15 never 01:11:25 i do not wanna get sspiled 01:11:25 spoiled 01:12:14 johan: have you ever worked with TCL/TK? 01:12:14 hate to break it to you guys 01:12:19 but i don't intend to try this now :) 01:12:22 need a floppy.... 01:12:28 i wanted it for tomorrow 01:12:37 that's fine 01:12:48 I'm gonna laugh if there's an error in the image file 01:12:51 i said never , i suppose we have lag 01:12:52 hehe 01:12:57 there's no way for me to verify 01:13:17 I hope the bios image has some kind of checksum 01:13:28 it does :) 01:13:29 then aaronl_ just waits for another day 01:13:45 yep, guess so 01:13:52 johan: have you ever worked with TCL/TK? 01:14:01 i said never , i suppose we have lag 01:14:10 oh, ok, never worked with TCL/K 01:14:14 heh 01:14:16 r u getting my replys 01:14:24 (no, I'm not just trying to irritate you) 01:14:35 never worked with it before 01:14:45 I expected with phrase "tcl" somewhere in your reply 01:14:50 and i do not get inrrated easily 01:15:04 i c 01:15:12 is okay 01:15:22 anyway, I'm _really_ impressed with the command set that the Scriptics people chose for the tcl/tk interpreter 01:15:29 i am used to one on one or fast chats 01:15:51 must i look into it 01:15:54 its extremely regular, has a LOT of functionality 01:16:11 where can i find good manuals or tutorials 01:16:24 enviroment access, windowing, about 30 different widget types, file attribute access 01:16:30 u know what i really in a funny way do? 01:16:32 manuals come with it 01:16:39 what? 01:16:50 upgrade my bios to forth 01:16:56 Johan4Jesus: you can do it 01:17:05 Johan4Jesus: theres a linux-booting bios with pforth 01:17:11 i know 01:17:17 best of all, tcl/tk runs IDENTICALLY on Linux, linux-XWindows, Win32, WinNt, AND MacOS 01:17:43 where is is that bios 01:18:26 if I write a program using tcl/tk on a Linux platform, I know it will act and look the same on a Macintosh (maybe cosmetic diffs) 01:18:27 aaronl_ i would love to know where the pforth bios is 01:18:50 I would like to provide the same functionality and ease of use to Forth 01:19:17 r u a coder or designer or a thinker 01:19:42 hmmm ... toughie, probably a designer 01:20:14 okay will u be able to write the code yourself 01:20:24 or will u need help? 01:20:36 heh, I _could_ if I wanted to spend half a lifetime on it 01:20:45 but really a team roject 01:21:09 o i c so its a big project 01:21:15 I don't know spit about Macintosh programming, for example 01:21:51 just getting a forth to run uniformly on all those platforms is a muli-person task 01:21:55 why do u initiate a sourceforge project 01:22:05 I'm thinking about it, actually 01:22:23 i know 01:22:23 so do it 01:22:33 i will jion u in the effort 01:22:38 should do some research to see what kind of support such a project would generate 01:22:50 so that's 4 people now? 01:23:00 thats crazy 01:23:11 what's crazy? 01:23:27 initiate the project is only way to see the response 01:23:39 oh! I see what you're talking aobut 01:24:05 how r u gonna see who is gonna respond if u do not do it? 01:24:13 heh, no, I didn't mean a formal research project, I meant more like talking with a few people about it, asking on USENET, etc 01:24:35 so sorry 01:25:06 there s a certain social inertia that must be gathered to start a successful project 01:25:27 to have two people start coding on a large project is doomed to failure 01:25:33 ask me i not interested . i think the idea is crazy , anti social and down right immoral 01:25:40 they will get burned out, too burned out to recruit 01:25:49 jk lol 01:26:02 o we first design 01:26:12 we plan we plot 01:26:20 then start coding 01:26:23 many people will come look at a new project ... and if there's nothing to show for it, will go away w/o contributing to it 01:27:17 thats true 01:27:35 so lets get I440r project settle 01:27:45 settled and working fine 01:27:55 thats a good start is it not 01:28:59 I don't think I4 will ever join such a project 01:29:10 MrReach? 01:29:22 he believes strongly in minimalists systems 01:29:46 me 2 actually 01:29:55 also, he has strong objections to unconventional threading or dictionary techniques 01:29:57 thats the beauty of forth 01:30:19 why? 01:30:22 it is a beauty, but it really cripples forth in 32bit environments 01:30:41 is he a purists 01:30:51 he has told me "subroutine threaded forth is not forth" 01:31:07 you should ask him sometime, I don't want to speak for him 01:31:26 yes, I would agree with your summary 01:31:31 i will do not worry 01:32:16 I see no reason that forth cannot compile to machine code with as much or more optimization than the best compilers out there ... and still retain its interactive nature 01:32:21 okay then , i wanna play with linux etc 01:32:29 but love forth 01:32:50 yes i love natice code compilation for forth 01:33:22 GForth is prob the best all-round bet for linux ... fairly robust, ok documentation (which is better than you find in most forths) 01:34:14 okay i think i have downloaded most of its code 01:34:25 let me check if i have everyhting 01:34:36 the user environment is still a bit primitive 01:35:19 who u like for me to work on making it better by stealing from other sources 01:35:38 stealing = 'cut and paste' 01:36:13 well, that can work, but seldom produces good code 01:36:17 especially in forth 01:37:02 okay then who is running gforth? 01:37:15 is it a sourceforge or what project 01:37:19 beg parden? I think I missed the meaning of your question. 01:37:29 tell me that time command again please 01:37:33 GForth is GNU licensed 01:37:49 ./ctcp mrreach TIME 01:37:55 okay thats what i wanna know 01:38:23 it was created by Anton Ertle 01:38:26 Ertl 01:38:36 as a research platform 01:38:47 where is the gforth home page 01:40:01