00:00:00 --- log: started forth/00.12.10 02:10:11 * aaronl is away: (as the mozilla compile churns away) 03:07:53 --- quit: Fare (Ping timeout for Fare[ppp28-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net]) 05:18:39 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp82-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth 08:58:40 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout for I440r[purplecoder.com]) 12:13:17 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 12:13:28 hihi! 12:18:44 --- join: edrx (edrx@copacabana-ttyS12.inx.com.br) joined #forth 12:22:58 hihi! 12:27:16 * aaronl is back (gone 10:17:09) 13:14:32 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth 13:15:41 hihi! 13:15:48 hi dood 13:16:00 how goes your w/e? 13:16:18 w/e ? 13:16:31 week end 13:16:36 ohhhh hehehe 13:16:37 duh! 13:16:39 going ok 13:16:53 tnx :) 13:17:16 do you have a shell account I could borrow for a couple of hours? I'd like to get this bloody router natting properly so I can serve web pages 13:17:20 having a lazy day :P 13:17:32 sure 13:17:34 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 13:17:41 didnt i make a shell here for you already ? 13:17:43 all I need is something w/ telnet 13:17:48 oh 13:17:51 i dont have telnetd 13:17:55 only ssh :( 13:17:58 nono 13:18:07 I need to telnet FROM there TO here 13:18:12 aha 13:18:13 ok 13:18:13 yea 13:18:16 THAT you can do 13:18:22 i have telnet, just not telnetd :) 13:18:23 hehe 13:18:28 let me create an account 13:18:32 hmmm ... where did I put ssh 13:18:49 what is the machine name? 13:18:53 mine ? 13:18:56 purplecoder.com 13:19:00 I can check my password book to see if I have a login 13:19:02 ssh1 to here 13:19:43 what username do u want 13:19:46 mrreach ? 13:19:51 yep 13:20:15 account open 13:20:16 do you know a good ssh client for Win98? 13:20:31 yea erm do a web search for securecrt 13:20:48 ok, that's what I was using before 13:23:18 heh, vandyke.com 13:24:42 :) 13:31:24 * MrReach chuckles at all the mounts 13:31:50 oh, cool! I've still got my static ip 13:32:46 now, what's probably going to happen is that I'll mangle my router so bad I'll have to reconfigure from ROM defaults 13:35:05 heh, the router is catching the telnet 13:35:14 :) 13:41:10 --- quit: MrReach (Ping timeout for MrReach[209.181.43.190]) 14:50:15 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 14:50:51 nice gateway machine, I4, hella nice 14:51:01 :)\ 14:51:19 SMB rocks, doesn't it? 14:51:24 sure duz 14:51:33 too bad it's a ms design @:^> 14:51:33 better than nfs by a log way 14:51:55 smb is a linux reverse engineer of a ms protocol 14:52:18 yes, funny how that works, MS invents the protocol, Linux implements it better 14:52:19 there are MANY good things ms have come up with 14:52:33 its like the american car man 14:52:39 they used to be big piles of junk 14:52:44 then we started to import jap cars 14:52:54 and their produc was MUCH better 14:53:04 the us market had to buck up 14:53:16 I remember, the 80s were bad of Amer cars 14:53:36 "planned obsolescence" didn't work out too good 14:53:41 heeh 14:53:51 i got a q for you :) 14:53:55 shoot 14:54:10 what do YOU think the us supreme court is going to do, and what do you thinjk it SHOULD do 14:54:35 oh, god, I've been trying avoid thinking about all this at all 14:54:40 hmmm ... 14:54:54 :) 14:54:56 well, to start ... 14:55:12 voting should ahve been made electronic in the late 70s 14:55:22 as soon as the tech was available 14:55:35 yes machine counts are MORE RELIABLE not less 14:55:35 much easier to prevent fraud 14:55:40 exactly 14:55:49 go on :) 14:56:11 yes, AND it's harder for an outside entity to manipulate the results 14:56:23 better faster reporting, etc 14:56:31 as to what they should do NOW 14:56:51 any gore/bush supporter can find an undervote and "accidently" push a chad out a little and call it a vote or "just go ahead and call it a vote anyway" 14:58:58 my opinion is that there should be a revote at the national level 14:58:58 no 14:58:58 i dont think so but only because i do not believe it will change the outcome 14:58:58 except to ADD more votes for bush 14:58:58 gore is alienating alot of his former supporters 14:58:58 I'm not looking at this from the perspective of who wins or loses 14:58:58 well 14:58:58 there are 2 candidates 14:58:58 one of them has wone consistantly 14:58:58 the other has refused to lose consistantly 14:58:58 I'm looking at it from the perspective of whether the will of the people is properly understood 14:58:58 you think all of what is happening is free ? 14:59:03 this is costing florida ALOT of money 14:59:15 a revote wont change the outcome and it would just cost more money 14:59:18 the vote WAS so close as to be fairly called "a tie" 14:59:34 besides the way i see it is taht the margin of error in florida is no different that any otehr state 14:59:36 did didn't say a revote in Florida 14:59:44 I said a NATIONAL revote 14:59:52 a LOT more money 15:00:09 i think that the errors one way or the other nationwide will effectivly cansel each other out 15:00:22 most states were pretty clear in their vote (beyond MOE) 15:00:23 plus its a KNOWN fact that a few thousand convicted felons voted for gore 15:00:33 its KNOWN 15:00:34 that is irrelevant 15:00:41 no actually it isnt 15:00:50 because a felon has NO voting rights 15:00:51 at all 15:01:21 i jokingly ask the following question but in my heart of hearts i realy do wonder,..,... 15:01:33 if there were a revote, the turnout would be MUCH higher than the original vote, hence the will of the people is much better understood 15:01:49 how many criminals voted, how many forign nationals voted, how many dead people voted 15:01:49 yes but ask yourself 15:01:53 who do you think would win 15:03:01 which candidate has pissed everyone off most :) 15:03:01 as far as I'm concerned, both Bush and Gore are slimey lawyers who should not be allowed to step foot in D.C., much less lead the country 15:03:01 well i disagree with 50% of that hehe 15:03:01 bush has proven himself to be a capable leader 15:03:05 gore has proven himself to be a wining sissy mary 15:03:26 if someone is going to whine about who was allowed to vote, it should be BEFORE a tie vote, not because of it 15:03:35 EXACTLY!!!!!!! 15:03:39 people voted 15:03:44 the votes were counted 15:03:46 gore lost 15:03:51 the votes were RE counted 15:03:52 gore lost 15:04:02 um 15:04:03 no 15:04:07 the votes were not recounted 15:04:18 florida supreme court made a ruling tthat was contrary to the constitution of the united states 15:04:19 the margin is less than the error of the count 15:04:23 and extended the deadline 15:04:26 it's not clear 15:04:32 AFTER the vote was already certified 15:04:43 thats not important 15:04:55 after the count and recount ahd the deadline was reached GORE LOST!!!!! 15:04:55 --- part: aaronl left #forth 15:05:00 the deadline is GONE 15:05:09 yes, and the US supreme court trew out the Florida Supreme courts ruling 15:05:10 and if bush ahd won by ONE vote at that time 15:05:14 he was the winner 15:05:25 correctly 15:05:42 and they will probably do the same with the halted recount too 15:05:46 that's fine to say, but the margin of error indicates that either could have actually won 15:05:59 they havent ruled on the recount yet, they have just stopped it for now 15:06:03 but the recount is illegal 15:06:07 this whole thing is insane to begin with 15:06:13 it is 15:06:23 gore should give it up and try again in 4 years 15:06:32 he would have a great deal more respect then 15:06:37 frankly, I don't care what they do or how they choose, niether had my vote 15:06:48 and they can both go to hell, IMO 15:07:05 hmmm neither had mine either because i was unable to vote because the DMV failed to register me 15:07:11 but other people care a lot, so there should be a revote, with more turnout 15:07:38 people who didn't care before do care now 15:07:56 i recon alot more ppl will be voting in 4 years and if bush is running then he will get a landslide 15:08:01 yes 15:08:37 neway i jsut wanted to know what u thunked about it :) 15:09:07 i think we agree on most points 15:10:00 yes, but I'd rather talk Forth, or COM, or hardware, or just about anything else 15:10:55 :) 15:11:09 i never used to be a political animal 15:13:09 I have always been politically aware 15:13:32 not me, wasnt interested in english polatics 15:13:35 :P 15:13:39 but for 15 years I've seen the WH addressing smoke-screen issues and ignoring the real ones 15:13:55 would never vote in england because taht kills my citezenship here 15:14:08 and continue to operate under absolutely insane laws 15:14:53 thats the democrats fault 15:14:58 they are the ones who keep enacting them 15:15:03 more laws 15:15:04 more laws 15:15:04 more laws 15:15:07 all the time 15:15:38 are you in brittain now? 15:15:48 no it isn't 15:15:58 no 15:16:02 it's noone's fault (or both of them) 15:16:37 well the democrats try get a bill thru to do with milk production and buried deep within it theres a little bit of GUN control 15:16:57 they do that all the time 15:17:03 there have been BOTH democrats and republicans as president and niether has made any substantial headway 15:17:13 erm i disagree 15:17:20 i think regan was a good president 15:17:20 yes, it's called "a rider", and it's common practice 15:17:23 so was bush 15:17:27 so will bush be :) 15:17:35 i know it is 15:17:45 of all the presidents, Reagan did the most to simplify things, but it didn't stick 15:17:58 i know 15:18:18 but HIS legacy isnt dishonerable like our current presidents is 15:18:23 Bush did not follow up with Reagan's push/priorities, for whatever reason 15:18:31 and gore is most definatly guilty by association 15:18:36 oh, I wouldn't go that far 15:18:45 i would 15:19:07 for example, I was utterly flabergasted that Clinton was elected for a second term 15:19:13 that totally blew me away 15:19:21 me 2 15:19:31 it wouldnt supporse me to learn that vote was rigged 15:19:39 so I was force to come to one of two conclusions: 15:19:42 i have suspicions about the ammount of votes GORE got 15:19:57 1. The vote is completely and blatently rigged 15:20:17 or 2. the population is to ignorant to realize how much manipulation the media does 15:20:24 or a mixture of both 15:20:29 yes 15:20:45 is the will of people reflected? possibly 15:20:56 is the will of the people manipulated? yes 15:21:10 are the people substantially lied to? yes 15:21:11 and if you think that of clinton why do you consider it unlikely for gore to do the same 15:21:25 I can tell you that from my experiences with Navy Intel 15:21:41 in the end the only thing that matters is the result of the election at the DEADLINE 15:21:55 and now we're stuggling with who should lead during the next stretch of lies and manipulations 15:22:15 im sure that even those people who voted for gore would rather have bush than the current mess 15:22:40 so the will of the people has been manipulated there too 15:23:03 if we revote im absolutly posative that ALOT of die hard democrat voteres would switch 15:23:14 it is impossible to tell what the people would WANT, because they're never ever going to get reliable data to make a descision on 15:23:23 a revote would not change the outcome except to increase the point spread 15:24:08 nope but thats ok 15:24:08 that is absolutely correct 15:24:08 the constition only affords you the right to vote, not the right to correct data to base your opinions on :) 15:24:08 that is why I prefer a revote 15:24:28 i dont object to the revote, i object to the cost of the revote 15:24:34 then, noone can argue about it 15:24:41 becayse i consider uit to be a moot point now 15:24:43 bush won 15:24:45 bush won again 15:24:50 bush won again 15:24:58 lets jsut go with that eh ? 15:25:23 i think that that was the true will of the people at the time of the vote 15:25:27 BUT bush won by a margin less than the error of both the machines and the recount 15:25:32 look at the usa today county by county map 15:25:41 and tell me you think otherwise... 15:25:49 yes, like I said, I don't care, personally 15:26:09 --- quit: tgunr (tolkien.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net) 15:26:13 i think tha bush actually got 90% of the TRUE legal votes 15:26:30 who is tgunr ? 15:26:32 heh 15:26:36 none of them is going to do what needs to be done, and I doubt will wither 15:26:38 has he ever talked ? 15:26:39 would either 15:27:01 and I doubt Nader would either 15:27:19 --- join: tgunr (davec@5116davec.006.popsite.net) joined #forth 15:27:19 --- mode: pohl.openprojects.net set mode: +o tgunr 15:27:19 nader is just a trouble maker i think 15:27:32 haven't seen tgunr talk here 15:27:36 he KNEW he wouldnt win 15:27:52 ok, things to address ... the insame complication in the IRS 15:27:56 i must know who he is because he got opped :) 15:28:06 the irs should be abolished 15:28:11 they are an abomination 15:28:20 income tax was NEVER ratified 15:28:20 the fact that trial-by-jury is not used in IRS courts that sieze property and freedoms 15:28:46 u know tax men dont pay tax ? 15:28:48 u know why ? 15:28:58 because the law says you dont HAVE to pay it 15:29:13 the Freedom of Information act is NOT honored, even Clinton couldn't get the original Roswell documents is a good example 15:30:08 the right of the PEOPLE to bear arms shall not be infringed 15:30:18 "Except in california and new yourk etc etc etc" 15:30:27 its a bit too animal farm for me... 15:30:28 in 1978 the State of Utah sent a letter to every resident forbidding them to pay federal taxes, and was then fined several million dollars and all Federal support was dropped until conditions were met 15:30:33 i shouldnt have to have a permit to carry a gun 15:31:06 they should have tuffed it out 15:31:33 the ONLY thing the federal government has ANY legal durisdiction over is interstate commerce 15:31:34 so 15:31:48 they have very cleverly put everything under interstte commerce 15:32:14 no state needs federal support 15:32:29 each state is legally a country in its own right 15:32:57 but the federal government has bastardised this and has given itself powers it has no legal right to 15:33:32 i dont think this will be fixed any time soon 15:34:14 but the party that wants to give more power to that government is the democrats 15:34:14 on just that issue i will never vote democrat 15:34:14 neway ennuff of this heh 15:34:59 sorry eating 15:35:09 thats ok 15:35:17 im about to go make somethign to eat myself :) 15:36:07 i *LIKE* pointing out ... 15:36:30 that our current govt is not in a position to address the real issues 15:36:47 i dont think they will be until the next revolution 15:37:02 hard to say 15:37:10 it would take a very strong leader 15:37:13 VERY strong 15:37:20 it's within the realm of possibility, however unlikely it is 15:37:21 he will need the support of everyone 15:37:33 he will need to be totally ruthless 15:37:36 yes, and lots of "moles" 15:37:47 chop this piece of government out... 15:37:51 kill that part 15:37:59 remove these powers from this part 15:38:02 it doesn't have to be that drastic 15:38:03 change this 15:38:10 i think it does 15:38:26 for example... every employee of the IRS is audited every 5 years 15:38:27 i think that hte only way to fix the curren6t situation is to destroy the old 15:38:38 that would solve the IRS problem 15:38:47 the irs should be abolished 15:38:48 totally 15:38:55 so should federal income tax 15:39:00 there should be state tax only 15:39:04 the fedral govt needs income, that's only fair 15:39:13 and the state should pay a SMALL ammount to the federal government 15:39:18 yes, that is prehaps most correct to say 15:39:45 i do not think the federal government should be bankrupted 15:39:45 if not just a state tax, then only a sales tax, rather than an income tax 15:40:01 but the only reason they need as much money as tehy do right now is because they have overstepped their legal bounds 15:40:11 income tax is illegal 15:40:21 sales taxes are incredibly easy to compute and collect 15:40:29 the original intent was to tax each person based on his PROPERTY 15:40:37 and the definition for property is LAND 15:40:41 not STUFF 15:40:48 so why put each citizen through the nightmares of income tax when it's not really neccessary? 15:41:01 i earn a dollar and its taxed 15:41:08 i save whats left and its taxed 15:41:15 i spend whats left and its taxed 15:41:24 it is fair to tax the GNP of the land, in my opinion 15:41:26 remove all the bullshit governement 15:41:37 TOTALLY abolish all freebie handouts to EVERYONE 15:41:40 outright 15:41:46 NO MORE HANDOUTS to any one for any reason 15:41:50 harsh yes 15:42:01 ruthless even 15:42:08 heh, I had a friend argue that point in favor of income taxes 15:42:20 hehe 15:42:33 i spent 10 years on unemployment benifit in england 15:42:34 he said, "Sales tax is not fair to the poor and poverty stricken" 15:42:39 becasue i had little choice 15:42:51 the tories had basically destroyed the uk economy 15:42:59 so I replied, "Then eliminate sales taxes on foodstuffs" 15:43:14 he relied, "What about people who have no money at all?" 15:43:44 if they totally halted all dole payments and used that money to generate new jobs.... 15:43:51 no money ? 15:43:55 then die 15:44:00 I replied, "Then cut them a damn check, just like we do now. How they get benefits is unrelated to the method of taxation, or should be" 15:44:11 dead wood has no benifit to society 15:44:14 they are a burden 15:44:28 all these nursing homes should pull the plug on their "patients" 15:44:29 dead wood + spark = nice toasty fire 15:44:46 their sole purpose is to feed the owners of the nursing homes 15:45:01 in most cases though, we don't consider "rehab" for nonproductive citizens 15:45:18 if you are too old, too crippled or too stupid to be of service to society you should be outcast 15:45:34 instead, we wait for nonproductive citizens to commit a crime and then put them in prison 15:45:50 being non productive is not the same as having the potential for being productive 15:45:50 actually, I disagree there 15:45:59 wisdom should never be discarded 15:46:19 if you have any means of being a service to society then society has a responsability of ensuring that you are able to do it 15:46:31 and someone who has worked and had an honorable life should be allowed to enjoy their retirement 15:46:32 free handouts just encourage people to seek free handouts 15:46:36 yes 15:47:00 yes, aid must be carefully administered 15:47:03 but once you get to the point where you are just drooling into your lap etc,.... 15:47:16 free handouts should be abolished outright 15:47:23 EARNED ones are different 15:47:28 thats the point 15:47:36 i4: people seldom end up in that condition, and then for very long 15:48:37 i4: people seldom end up in that condition, and then for NOT very long 15:48:37 (drooling in their lap) 15:48:37 erm 15:48:37 my mother OWNED or worked for various nursing homes 15:48:37 worked in fulborne hospital in cambridge england 15:48:37 how much of their income was subsidy? 15:48:37 a mental hospital 15:48:51 a old person is oput in the home 15:48:55 well, mental hospital, all income would be govt 15:48:57 THEIR home is sold from under their feet 15:49:12 ack! I know, sucks 15:49:19 then when the money runs out the government pais $500 a week to keep them in that home 15:49:27 they sit 15:49:27 they do nothing 15:49:33 they live for years and years 15:49:40 old people should teach, traditionally it has worked beautifuly 15:50:11 not if you cant even remember your own name :) 15:50:25 the elders have always watched the children while the fit went and hunted, or worked, or whatever 15:50:30 the american indian would deposit any old ppl unable to travel when they moved 15:50:38 leave them behind with nothing 15:50:39 no food 15:50:41 no cloathes 15:50:43 the children tending the elders teaches responsibility, too 15:50:44 no weapons 15:50:54 just leave them there to die 15:51:03 they didnt just leave their elders 15:51:06 only the infirm 15:51:10 heh, you're funny 15:51:11 the elders were respected 15:51:19 thats how it should be 15:51:32 if you are nothing but a burden you should be left behind to die 15:52:12 ok, I would askyou to be carefull here .... this is a gigantic gray area 15:52:14 if you are sick and can be cured and can still be a service then we should help you 15:52:25 i do not say we should KILL anyone 15:52:36 for example ... a person gets in a car accident and goes into coma ... 15:52:46 When do you unplug them? 15:53:00 i say we should stop paying humongous ammounts of money just to keep people alive so taht the people keeping them alive can makle humopngous ammounts of money 15:53:01 some people never wake up from coma 15:53:04 when they are of no use to anyone 15:53:14 they are already dead 15:53:22 most wake up the next day, retrain their bodies, and live productive lives. 15:53:36 ive been in a coma :P 15:53:44 but im ok now... twitch hehe 15:53:51 i was run over by a var... 15:53:53 when i was a kid 15:53:55 some stay in coma up to 7-8 years, then wake up to live productive lives. 15:54:04 heh 15:54:09 argh 15:54:11 by a CAR 15:54:16 man i realy do gotta learn to type 15:54:19 neway 15:54:23 when to uplug? it's a BIG gray area 15:54:23 yes there is a line 15:54:44