00:00:00 --- log: started forth/00.12.07
01:03:51 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: Connection reset by peer)
01:03:55 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth
03:14:48 --- quit: I440r (Read error to I440r[purplecoder.com]: EOF from client)
03:14:48 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth
06:54:19 --- quit: I440r (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net)
06:54:19 --- quit: aaronl (clarke.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net)
06:56:48 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth
06:56:48 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth
06:56:48 --- mode: barnes.openprojects.net set mode: +o aaronl
09:22:23 --- join: Fare (fare@ppp64-net1-idf2-bas1.isdnet.net) joined #forth
09:34:36 <Fare> LX: hi
10:00:05 --- join: ult (ultima@149.149.201.30) joined #forth
10:20:37 --- quit: ult (ircII EPIC4pre2 -- Accept no limitations)
12:56:47 <I440r> argh who set that topic. only a lamer codes in all uppercase!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:56:49 <I440r> doh!!!!!!!!!!!1
12:56:50 <I440r> hehe
12:56:52 <I440r> bbl
13:59:02 --- topic: set to 'http://isforth.sourceforge.net -- http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/isforth/?cvsroot=isforth' by ChanServ
13:59:14 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o clog
13:59:14 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: -o aaronl
14:28:17 <I440r> damned chanserv hehe
14:29:20 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o aaronl
14:29:24 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o clog
14:29:26 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o Fare
14:29:29 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r
17:05:07 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.93) joined #forth
17:05:44 --- part: edrx left #forth
17:53:31 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
17:53:45 <MrReach> hihi! is anyone awake?
17:55:45 <MrReach> ok, nevermind
17:55:50 --- part: MrReach left #forth
19:07:19 --- quit: I440r (Ping timeout for I440r[purplecoder.com])
19:10:12 --- join: edrx (edrx@200.240.18.93) joined #forth
19:26:19 --- quit: Fare (barnes.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net)
19:31:43 --- quit: edrx (barnes.openprojects.net lackey.openprojects.net)
19:56:40 --- join: I440r (mark4@purplecoder.com) joined #forth
20:36:39 --- quit: aaronl (Read error to aaronl[vitelus.com]: Connection reset by peer)
20:52:56 --- join: jemfinch (user9556@cvg-65-26-147-68.cinci.rr.com) joined #forth
20:53:09 <jemfinch> what's an example of "hello world" in forth look like?
21:01:18 <I440r> ok
21:01:27 <I440r> : hello-world ." hello world ;
21:01:29 <I440r> thats it
21:02:10 <I440r> the word : (pronounced colon) 
21:02:21 <I440r> adds a new definition to the dictionary
21:02:28 <I440r> with the name hello-world in this case
21:03:09 <I440r> ." is a word taht compiles a call to a print routine and then compiles the text to be displayed
21:03:09 <I440r> the " at the end is the string delimiter
21:03:09 <I440r> the ; terminates the : definition
21:13:50 <I440r> jem u interested in forth ?
21:14:02 <I440r> usually there are a few more ppl in here heh
21:14:09 --- join: jasonkb (jkb@c947259-b.pinol1.sfba.home.com) joined #forth
21:14:18 --- part: jasonkb left #forth
21:14:20 <jemfinch> I440r: I can't really say I am...it doesn't seem like my type of language.
21:14:46 <I440r> well alot of ppl take one look and go screaming to mommy heheh
21:14:52 <I440r> and thats a fact
21:14:57 <I440r> the rpn screws with them
21:15:37 <I440r> its not just maths thats done rpn
21:15:42 <I440r> the whole language is rpn
21:15:51 <I440r> there is realy no such thing as a forward reference in forth
21:16:03 <jemfinch> I love rpn.
21:16:37 <I440r> rpn is more logical
21:16:44 <I440r> let a = b + c
21:16:49 <I440r> the conmpiler sees the let or what ever
21:16:52 <I440r> then it sees the a
21:16:58 <I440r> and it knows it needs to do something with a
21:17:10 <I440r> then it sees the = and it knows it needs to assign somethign to a
21:17:13 <I440r> etc etc etc
21:17:24 <I440r> its not until the end of the statement that it has all the info and can act
21:17:27 <I440r> in forth you would have
21:17:35 <I440r> c b + a !
21:17:41 <I440r> c goes on the stack
21:17:44 <I440r> b goes on the stack
21:17:56 <I440r> the word + (plus) executes and leaves the result on the stack
21:18:07 <I440r> erm actually im missing little bits but thats ok
21:18:14 <I440r> then the last part stores the result in a
21:19:40 <I440r> all of forht works taht way too
21:19:40 <I440r> well
21:19:40 <I440r> 99% of it does
21:20:03 <I440r> : blah foo foo foo foo foo ;
21:20:19 <I440r> : parses the input stream for the next space delimited word
21:20:31 <I440r> then it creates a new word header in the dictionary with that name
21:20:53 <I440r> then it takes each space delimited word in turn from the input stream, searches the dictionary for each word
21:21:03 <I440r> and compiles their address into the new definition
21:23:50 <jemfinch> you seem to really like this language.
21:24:45 --- quit: jemfinch ()
21:26:54 <I440r> i do :)
22:17:06 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth
22:56:24 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o I440r
22:56:27 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o aaronl
22:57:56 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth
22:58:14 <MrReach> greets, brb (coffee)
22:59:27 <MrReach> back
23:00:16 <I440r> hehe i ws jsut getting same :)
23:00:19 <MrReach> oh, ok
23:00:28 <I440r> heh i heared u messaged my windows icq in the other room hehe
23:00:32 <I440r> it beeped hehe
23:00:38 <I440r> ok whats ur q
23:00:47 <MrReach> it's a question about how to _document_ a particular behavior
23:00:53 <I440r> oh
23:00:56 <I440r> ok hehe
23:00:58 <MrReach> what the contion is
23:01:03 <MrReach> convention
23:01:14 <MrReach> (no vodka tonihgt, go figure)
23:01:32 <I440r> hehe i had a LITTLE jd
23:01:35 <I440r> but im not befuddled :)
23:01:44 <MrReach> anyway,j suppose you have a word that parses mutiple words from the input stream ...
23:01:52 <I440r> ok
23:02:00 <I440r> : does that :P
23:02:10 <MrReach> and CREATES definition for them, along with DOES> does run-time behavior
23:02:22 <I440r> u mean a ::::: word ?
23:02:33 <I440r> oen taht will create multiple definitions ?
23:02:35 <MrReach> ok, what is the USUAL way to document that?
23:02:39 <MrReach> yes, that is right
23:02:47 <I440r> eek!
23:02:47 <I440r> hrm
23:03:03 <I440r> ok
23:03:04 <I440r> how would YOU define :
23:03:04 <I440r> i mean
23:03:04 <I440r> how would you doccument it
23:03:04 <MrReach> would you like an example of such a word usage?
23:03:07 <I440r> yea
23:03:16 <I440r> i can think of one actually
23:03:18 <MrReach> ok, this is multi-line ...
23:03:23 <I440r> u could use it to define multi dimentionalrrays
23:03:34 <MrReach> ENUM: Colors
23:03:34 <I440r> where each cell could be accessed with a word
23:03:38 <MrReach>   red
23:03:42 <MrReach>   green
23:03:45 <MrReach>   blue
23:03:49 <MrReach> END-ENUM
23:03:54 <I440r> what did i just say hehe
23:03:56 <MrReach> red . 1 ok
23:04:01 <I440r> im way ahead of you hehe
23:04:05 <MrReach> blue . 3 ok
23:04:25 <I440r> multi dimentional arrays where each cell can be accessed by a given word :)
23:04:35 <I440r> thats clever
23:04:38 <MrReach> ok, so how does one one write a clear, concise glassary entry for that type of behavior?
23:04:38 <I440r> hmmm
23:04:49 <I440r> well
23:05:05 <I440r> well first of all you are defining a creating word
23:05:12 <I440r> what are the limitations on this word class ?
23:05:21 <I440r> you have ENUM:
23:05:29 <I440r> what other examples do you have
23:05:52 <MrReach> ok, the COM interface ... again, this is multiline ...
23:06:16 <I440r> wait
23:06:18 <I440r> better
23:06:35 <I440r> show me the definition for this word. not enum: i mean the defining word taht created enum:
23:06:45 <I440r> im assuming thats how u made enum:
23:07:07 <MrReach> enum is a top-level colon definition
23:07:37 <MrReach> it's logic looks something like this ...
23:07:37 <I440r> ok then what you are trying to do is doccument many different types of words that work in a similar way
23:07:44 <MrReach> right
23:07:49 <I440r> bad 
23:07:55 <MrReach> I'm asking about glossary FORMAT
23:07:57 <I440r> you need to doccument them seperatly
23:08:04 <MrReach> of course I do
23:08:07 <MrReach> heh
23:08:12 <I440r> for instance constant and variable are actually verry similar but work differently
23:08:29 <I440r> well enum: is fairly easy to doccument
23:08:45 <I440r> depending on how you implemented it
23:08:55 <I440r> does enum: create multiple constants
23:09:02 <MrReach> there is a REALLY good system in place for doumentating words, but it doesn't cover this scenario, and to document this scenario with standard format would be awkward in the extreme
23:09:03 <I440r> ?
23:09:19 <MrReach> yes, it would
23:09:20 <I440r> whats the standard way
23:09:41 <MrReach> hmmm ... lemme start my web server and ...
23:09:44 <I440r> ok
23:09:47 <MrReach> ooops, sorry router won't do that
23:09:52 <I440r> hehe
23:09:58 <MrReach> lemme try to DCC you a file
23:10:03 <I440r> ok
23:10:17 <I440r> hmm u didnt /msg nickserv :P heheh
23:10:19 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o MrReach
23:11:34 <I440r> accepting
23:11:35 <I440r> brb
23:11:37 <I440r> rtfm
23:11:44 <I440r> erm
23:11:47 <I440r> guess not
23:11:49 <I440r> dcc failed
23:11:52 <I440r> email it
23:12:04 <I440r> mark4@purplecoder.com
23:12:06 <MrReach> mark4@purplecoder.com?
23:12:07 <MrReach> oik
23:12:10 <I440r> yes
23:14:34 <I440r> ok i was watching syslog i see i got mail :)
23:14:34 <I440r> brb
23:14:35 <I440r> rtfm :)
23:14:47 <MrReach> rtfm what topic?
23:15:13 <MrReach> ok, scroll past he intro garbage ...
23:15:19 <MrReach> look at the glossary entries
23:15:26 <I440r> rtfm your doc :)
23:15:31 <I440r> ok
23:15:35 <MrReach> the LAST glossary entry is a template that I'm using
23:15:59 <I440r> ohhh ive seen this before
23:16:19 <MrReach> it is based on the ANS format, but filled out a little bit
23:16:25 <MrReach> where have you seen it?
23:16:58 <I440r> you showed it to me
23:16:59 <MrReach> I think MPU Engineering uses a similar format internally
23:17:12 <MrReach> (Steven Pelc)
23:17:31 <MrReach> ok, I like the format ... very clear ... concise
23:17:37 <I440r> yes
23:17:41 <I440r> TOO concise
23:17:45 <I440r> for this
23:17:49 <MrReach> BUT a multi-defining word would not fit into it very well
23:17:57 <I440r> well it would
23:18:06 <MrReach> ok, what's your idea?
23:18:07 <I440r> and it wouldnt
23:18:17 <I440r> well you have one word taht creates multiple words 
23:18:18 * MrReach slaps I4 upside the head.
23:18:27 <I440r> each of these words executes the same
23:18:28 <MrReach> "Well, I'm alive until I'm not."
23:18:31 <I440r> take the same parameters
23:18:38 <MrReach> ok
23:18:42 <I440r> so doccument THEM in this way
23:18:57 <I440r> each of them will fit into this scheme quite nicely
23:18:57 <aaronl> isforth isforth
23:19:02 <I440r> aaronl: whats taht ?
23:19:05 <I440r> heheh
23:19:21 <MrReach> a variation of the "<name> Execution:" part?
23:19:40 <I440r> ok
23:19:48 <I440r> dont doccument enum: like that
23:19:54 <I440r> doccument the words it creates like taht
23:20:10 <I440r> and state that this word creates multiple instances of these words 
23:20:34 <I440r> this word creates multiple dictionary entries that behave as follows...
23:20:45 <I440r> <name> Execution:
23:20:47 <I440r> etc etc etc
23:21:01 <I440r> would that work ?
23:21:04 <MrReach> hmm... ENUM: ... END-ENUM work in pars, I had thought that they chould be documented together
23:21:10 <MrReach> but you might be right
23:21:26 <MrReach> IF ELSE THEN are usually documented in seperate places
23:21:32 <I440r> well whats the FIRST rule of programming ???
23:21:44 <I440r> one that alot of ppl forget
23:21:44 <MrReach> keep it simple
23:21:52 <I440r> well yes but i would reduce that to a single word
23:21:54 <I440r> simplify
23:22:05 <MrReach> 2nd is "plan BEFORE you code, not while you code"
23:22:09 <I440r> factor your problem into lost of smaller simpller problems :)
23:22:13 <I440r> oh
23:22:15 <I440r> i never do that :P
23:22:16 <I440r> heheh
23:23:25 <I440r> did i help ?
23:24:02 * MrReach checks to see how ANS chose to format [IF] [ELSE] [THEN]
23:24:02 <MrReach> yes, I think so
23:24:02 <I440r> oopts
23:24:02 <I440r> heh
23:24:20 <MrReach> ooops?
23:24:21 <I440r> hehehe
23:24:28 <I440r> it sets a bad president :P
23:24:29 <I440r> erm
23:24:32 <I440r> did i spell that rite ?
23:24:33 <I440r> erm
23:24:49 <MrReach> what sets a bad precident?
23:24:53 <I440r> aha
23:24:55 <I440r> thats it
23:25:01 <I440r> im bad at spelling :P
23:25:04 <I440r> sumtimez
23:25:04 <MrReach> lemme check webster
23:25:07 <I440r> k hehe
23:25:54 <MrReach> pre·ce·dent
23:25:58 <I440r> precident ?
23:26:05 <I440r> ok
23:26:06 <MrReach> what sets a bad precedent?
23:26:16 <I440r> me being helpfull hehe
23:26:41 <MrReach> oh, ok
23:26:45 <MrReach> yeah, terrible
23:26:49 <I440r> it was a joke :P
23:26:53 <I440r> almost
23:26:54 <I440r> hehehe
23:26:55 <MrReach> you will be punished by God, I'm sure
23:26:57 <aaronl> ISFORTH RULES IF ISFORTH WORK THEN
23:27:19 <I440r> isforth works if isforth rules then
23:27:23 <MrReach> isforth? IF use it often THEN
23:27:47 <I440r> : sleep   bed to tuck  light off ; immediate  <-- an I440r original!!!!
23:27:54 <I440r> bed GO tuck even
23:28:36 * MrReach stores his bed into the variable go, as instructed
23:28:40 <I440r> mrreach did u get my message before about that game a friend of mine wrote ?
23:28:47 <MrReach> yes, how lame
23:28:51 <I440r> yea
23:28:53 <I440r> its realy cheezy hehe
23:28:57 <I440r> but its realy cute too heh
23:29:00 <MrReach> good joke, though
23:29:06 <I440r> i sent a copy to rush limbaugh :)
23:29:11 <MrReach> HAHAHA!
23:29:25 <MrReach> some people have too much time on their hands.
23:29:28 <I440r> lets see if i get a response :)
23:29:29 <I440r> yea
23:29:29 <I440r> me
23:29:35 <I440r> way too much time 
23:29:48 <MrReach> I was thinking the author, actually
23:29:54 <I440r> ./me needz a woman :P
23:29:58 <I440r> hehe he is only 19 :P
23:30:08 <I440r> it took 4 hours to code :P
23:30:08 <MrReach> but he probably had the guts already written, just had to make some sprites for the characters
23:30:18 <I440r> he did
23:31:31 <I440r> mrreach do you know bash scripting ?
23:31:41 <I440r> how would i do a 100,000 itteration loop ?
23:31:48 <MrReach> used to ... *WAY* back
23:32:08 <MrReach> I use TCL for system scripting for the last two years or so
23:32:16 <I440r> :)
23:32:20 <I440r> ill ask in #debuian :)
23:32:20 <MrReach> help for
23:32:38 * MrReach starts bash on his WinBox
23:33:49 <I440r> bash in windiws ?
23:33:50 <I440r> argh
23:33:53 <I440r> evil!
23:34:07 <MrReach> it's cool!
23:34:13 <MrReach> all the GNU utils, too
23:34:17 <MrReach> slow, though
23:35:19 <MrReach> here it is ...
23:36:00 <MrReach> while COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; don { COMMANDS ; }
23:36:15 <MrReach> while COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done { COMMANDS ; }
23:37:04 <MrReach> set i=0;
23:37:58 <MrReach> while {set i expr $i + 1;$i != 100000}; do { .... }; done
23:38:01 <MrReach> try that
23:39:25 <I440r> tnx :)
23:42:04 <aaronl> tcl sux
23:42:08 <aaronl> use forth
23:42:09 <aaronl> ;-)
23:42:19 <MrReach> I would if it were as versatile
23:42:24 <MrReach> someday, perhaps
23:43:01 <I440r> its more versatile
23:43:01 <I440r> well
23:43:06 <I440r> will be once isforth is ready :P
23:43:11 <I440r> WHEN not if
23:43:12 * MrReach shakes his head
23:43:31 <aaronl> thats why we depend on you
23:43:35 <MrReach> i disagree
23:43:58 <MrReach> not that forth can't be that versatile, just that isforth never will be
23:44:22 <I440r> well
23:44:23 <MrReach> I can grab TCL on any machine
23:44:26 <I440r> not at this rate :)
23:44:37 <MrReach> and write event-driven windowing applications
23:44:53 <MrReach> with full support for both secure and regulare sockets
23:45:07 <MrReach> a SCAD of string processing functions, and file functions
23:45:28 <aaronl> erm
23:45:37 <aaronl> tk is ugly
23:45:40 <aaronl> tcl is ugly
23:45:40 <MrReach> AND take that application and run it on Macintosh, Windoze, and Linux, without change
23:45:51 <MrReach> tk is hella ugly
23:46:05 <MrReach> I like TCL syntax more than Forth actually
23:46:17 <MrReach> the prob with TCL is that it's so damn slow
23:46:45 <aaronl> yeah
23:46:58 <aaronl> thought about python? i think its portable.
23:47:01 <aaronl> i hate its syntax tho
23:47:04 <MrReach> although the byte compiler has improved that dramatically
23:47:10 <MrReach> heh, I love it
23:47:21 <MrReach> I cut my teeth on basic
23:47:29 <MrReach> and loved QuciBasic
23:47:33 <I440r> eek
23:47:36 <MrReach> QuickBasi
23:47:37 <MrReach> c
23:47:42 <aaronl> eeeeeeeeeek
23:47:44 <aaronl> basic is EVIL
23:47:48 <MrReach> and thought C a big step backward
23:47:53 <I440r> i sort of started with basic on the c64 and like most other ppl back then it drove me to learn asm :P
23:48:00 <I440r> c is a big step backwards
23:48:00 <MrReach> and Visual Basic is FAR too complex
23:48:09 <I440r> vb is crippled too
23:48:54 <MrReach> I thought QB was a good compromise on complexity, and was sorry to see MS drop development on it when moving to windows
23:48:57 <I440r> i know ppl who cant get the difference between logical operations and bool operations
23:49:09 <MrReach> huh?
23:49:17 <MrReach> you mean logical and bit operations?
23:49:41 <MrReach> or bool and bit operations?
23:49:54 <I440r> bool is bit operations
23:50:08 <I440r> a and b or a anded with b
23:50:12 <I440r> they cant figure the diff hehe
23:50:34 <I440r> and they consider themselves to be expert coders
23:50:34 <I440r> erm
23:50:38 <I440r> DUH!!!
23:51:26 <MrReach> actually, it's pretty easy if you start with defining what is true and what is false
23:51:42 <I440r> 0 is false
23:51:42 <I440r> non 0 is true
23:51:49 <MrReach> right, and anything else is true
23:51:55 <I440r> a true true is -1 however
23:52:10 <MrReach> a well-formed true, yet
23:52:20 <MrReach> actually, it's not -1
23:52:24 <MrReach> but all bits set
23:52:40 <MrReach> which is -1 on twos-complement machines
23:52:58 <I440r> i know
23:53:08 <MrReach> but all bits set is -0 on sign magnitude machines
23:53:19 <I440r> erm
23:53:24 <I440r> you cant have negative zero
23:53:28 <I440r> its a non number
23:53:41 <MrReach> anyway, then you talk about a single bit, showing what happens with AND OR NOT and XOR
23:53:44 <I440r> or rather it has the same value as posative 0
23:53:51 <MrReach> that is correct
23:54:06 <MrReach> and it a distinct number on sign-magnitude machines
23:54:30 <MrReach> I'm sorry, I was wrong
23:54:46 <MrReach> all bits set is -127 on sign-magnitude
23:54:53 <MrReach> I was talking out my ass
23:55:03 <I440r> hehehe ok
23:55:09 <I440r> that ill believe :)
23:55:11 <MrReach> 10000000 is -0
23:56:06 <MrReach> after doing the 1 bit logicals, do the multi-bit logicals ... showing that they often lead to "true" even when clearing bits
23:56:32 <I440r> :)
23:56:42 <MrReach> sorry, I messed up your terminology
23:56:59 <MrReach> after doing the 1 bit bools, do the multi-bit bools ... showing that they often lead to "true" even when clearing bits
23:57:36 <I440r> either terminology works for me
23:57:42 <MrReach> the logical ops, theoretically, are supposed to "clean" the values before operating on them
23:57:58 <MrReach> yes, but it can get confusing if you mix-and-match
23:58:21 <MrReach> did you get that shell script going?
23:58:43 <I440r> i idnt do it in the end, was a silly idea anyway
23:58:50 <I440r> i was gona do 100 thousand reps of
23:58:58 <MrReach> grrr... I've been doing it
23:59:01 <I440r> echo fuck off spammer | mail spam@spam.com
23:59:16 <I440r> but decided that was a bad idea
23:59:42 <I440r> i hate spammers
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/00.12.07