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(mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 14:11:17 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 15:13:10 well, that rather *SUCKS* ... is there some asshole sitting out there in cyberland whose job is to make simple ideas into complex implementations? 15:13:39 * MrReach curses to himself, "*DAMN*!" 15:52:07 --- nick: aaronl -> p\e\r\l 16:26:06 MrReach: ur only just figuring that out ??? hehe 16:27:19 blech 16:28:27 --- quit: p\e\r\l (tolkien.openprojects.net pohl.openprojects.net) 16:28:38 erm who was perl ? 16:28:53 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o MrReach 16:29:25 *** aaronl is now known as p\e\r\l 16:29:34 but you prob saw that 16:29:46 erm no i missed it, i only just came in here 16:30:06 any my connection keeps disconnecting and reconnecting 16:30:16 so i got all kinds of reconnect mesages in my window 16:30:27 wanna hear a rant about byte layout in Globally unique identifiers? 16:30:50 :) 16:30:53 sure :) 16:31:28 --- join: p\e\r\l (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 16:31:56 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o p\e\r\l 16:32:02 brb 16:33:01 ok, still here? 16:33:48 a GUID is a 16 byte (128 bit) opaque number. 16:34:19 still here 16:34:23 invented by the OSF to be guaranteed unique throughtout the world 16:34:23 k 16:34:30 hehe 16:34:41 anyone can get as many as they like 16:34:42 osf ? 16:34:49 open software foundation 16:34:53 ohg ok 16:35:02 and what does a guid give you 16:35:08 and use them for any purpose you want 16:35:23 a guaranteed unique number that you OWN 16:35:28 k 16:35:33 noone else will ever use that number 16:36:24 k 16:36:24 they are used by Microsoft to id object classes and interfaces in COM 16:36:24 ok 16:36:24 you know what an object is ... 16:36:30 as in OOP ? 16:36:35 yes sorta 16:36:39 an interface is a set of published methods that perform operations within an object 16:36:45 k 16:37:06 an object is a opague set of data with an interface by which to manipulate it 16:37:10 anyway ... 16:37:31 OSF said that when writing GUIDs, to use this format ... 16:37:51 3fad3020-16b7-11ce-80eb-00aa003d7352 16:38:21 8 hex digits, a dash 16:38:27 4 hex digits, a dash 16:38:30 4 hex digits, a dash 16:38:50 4 hex digits, a dash 16:38:55 12 hex digits 16:39:35 k 16:40:02 so, one assumes that when that is in memory as a 128 bit number, it looks like "3fad302016b711ce80eb00aa003d7352" in a memory dump, right? 16:40:22 *WRONG* 16:40:30 hehe 16:41:11 let me guess 16:41:11 the dashes are in theret oo ? 16:41:11 it is define as a DWORD, two WORDS, and an 8 BYTE array 16:41:13 k 16:41:19 im sure it doesnt need to be... 16:41:19 on a little-endian machine 16:41:30 or is the storage method specified in the standard ? 16:41:34 that would be dumb 16:41:51 well, it's not at all well published 16:42:14 what a nightmare, so the number above looks like ... 16:42:16 3fad3020-16b7-11ce-80eb-00aa003d7352 16:43:03 203fad30b716ce1180eb00aa00ed7352 16:43:13 sorry, I mistyped, the line above should read ... 16:43:20 --- quit: ult (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) 16:43:35 it is define as a DWORD, three WORDS, and a 6 BYTE array 16:45:01 k 16:45:06 well, I can understand WHY it was done the way it was, but it should certainly be better published regarding WHY the array byte order does not correspond to the print order 16:46:06 how the number is stored in memory is irrelavant 16:46:10 * MrReach ends his rant. 16:46:17 as long as it can be used for YOUR intended purpose 16:46:22 right, it is opaque 16:46:30 if i store it as a complressed 10 byte array 16:46:33 then so what 16:46:37 but the representation is NOT irrelevent 16:46:40 or i can encrypt it 16:46:55 how its stored doesnt alter how YOU represent it 16:47:07 and it shot me in the foot when I was writing a Forth word to create the byte array that the rest of the system could use. 16:48:04 for example ... 16:48:40 on windows, the CLSID (a type of GUID) for the Direct Sound Object is ... 16:48:56 k 16:51:03 {F3CA5665-C5DA-11CF-8F28-00AA0060FD48} 16:52:11 so, if I create a byte array as F3 c, CA c, 56 c, 65 c, C5 c, DA c, 11 c, CF c, 8F c, 28 c, 00 c, AA c, 00 c, 60 c, FD c, 48 16:52:39 and then use it to tell windows to create a DirectSound object, guess what happens??? 16:53:00 erm 16:53:02 it barfs ? 16:53:08 you got it 16:53:21 erm this IS windows were talking about :) 16:53:25 and the reason it fails is not at all evident 16:53:50 it's identical on Linux, HP-UX, BeoWolf, etc 16:55:18 not unworkable, just a bloody nuisance is all 16:55:18 look at the pnp spec 16:55:18 thats an absolute nightmare 16:55:18 heh, never seen it 16:55:18 it contradicts itself 16:55:18 ooops 16:55:26 it lease ALOT up to the individual designers 16:55:27 so 16:55:33 just because ur pnp code works here 16:55:37 dont mean it will work there... 16:55:40 actually, knowing the fields can be quite useful ... for example ... 16:55:56 even intels own code cant find more that two identical sound cards in the same machine 16:55:56 --- nick: p\e\r\l -> aaronl 16:56:01 my code would find thenm all hehe 16:56:31 those last 6 bytes are the NIC number of the network card in the machine that generated the GUID 16:56:55 and the first word, I think, is a timestamp with 1 second of resolution 16:57:26 yes, I have heard from others that PNP is not at all intuitive 16:58:02 its funny actually 16:58:09 there are 3 things u need to do in pnp 16:58:12 isolate all cards 16:58:14 probe them 16:58:22 then program them with their requested resources 16:58:32 it took me 2 weeks to get the first part done 16:58:37 another 2 weeks to get the next part 16:58:42 8 months to program them 16:58:43 duh 16:58:53 heh 16:58:57 hehe 16:59:06 that was when i was on a contract in vegas 16:59:08 that was fun hehe 16:59:20 the old Apple IIe used a very similar system on it's plugin expansion cards 16:59:29 :) 16:59:32 except that it worked 16:59:44 hehe 16:59:48 well, PNP is supposed to work across various processors 16:59:55 pnp had the potential of being a brilliant innovation 17:00:02 a realy GOOD tool 17:00:05 but they fscked it up 17:00:09 prolly deliberatly 17:00:09 which the IIe never had to worry about ... you got a 6502, and that's *IT* 17:00:19 i loved that processor :) 17:00:48 I liked it too, but you just can't do a fancy windowing OS with it 17:01:14 although the 65000 did a pretty good job on the LISA 17:01:48 anyway, I'm having great joy in figuring out GUIDs 17:01:56 :) 17:12:10 ok, so this what I'm going to do with the interface ... the root word is GUID, with aliases CLSID and IID ... 17:12:32 they each accept a string, with no particular format 17:13:39 the the initial string is simply 32 hexadecimal digits, and nothing else, then it is treated as a byte array and commad into the dictionary as-is 17:14:05 --- join: ult (ultima@149.149.201.30) joined #forth 17:14:06 otherwise, all characters that are not hex digits are stripped (and if the resulting string is not exactly 32 characters long, an error is thrown) 17:14:07 k 17:14:46 and then the resulting 32 characters are placed into the dictionary according to OSF byte layout specs 17:15:47 that way, the s" {F3CA57EB-C5DA-11CF-8F28-00AA0060FD48}" gets placed correctly, as does ... 17:16:06 s" F3CA57EB-C5DA-11CF-8F28-00AA0060FD48" 17:16:36 or even s" shitty F3CA57EB-C5DA-11CF-8F28-00AA0060FD48" 17:16:54 all three of those would identify exactly the same entity 17:17:26 but s" F3CA57EBC5DA11CF8F2800AA0060FD48" would be a different entity altogether 17:19:46 k 17:21:45 hmmm ... now how to write the documentation for such behavior? 17:22:01 erm 17:22:02 * MrReach steeples his fingers and stars at the doc page 17:22:15 why not write a word that will translate between the two 17:22:17 * MrReach chuckles. 17:23:16 the two what? 17:23:25 printable versions? 17:23:54 yes 17:23:57 erm 17:24:05 i see what u mean 17:24:12 well, getting from byte array to printed represention is a trivial exercise 17:24:29 the other way around is a tad complex 17:24:40 as for implementation ... 17:25:29 I think I'll write a word that takes a 32 character string of hex digits and places it into the array verbatim 17:25:52 sounds good 17:26:01 and a word to print it in the required format 17:26:02 and then I'll write a second word that checks for syntax, possibly reorders the characters in the string, and then gives the string to the first word 17:26:41 yes, printing out is no biggie 17:27:06 but specifying the behavior of the second words in the documentation is not so easy 17:28:14 for printing out, I think I'll use the fancy microsoft format, which is the OSF format surrounded by curly braces ... that way it looks like the registry entries 17:28:39 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@216.25.203.91) joined #forth 17:28:45 hiya all 17:28:47 hiya, blue 17:29:00 brb 17:29:02 i440r: btw, I've registered with nickserv 17:29:09 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 17:29:13 --- join: TheBlueWizard (TheBlueWiz@216.25.203.91) joined #forth 17:29:13 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o TheBlueWizard 17:29:15 I was surprised to see that I wasn't registered 17:29:18 there :) 17:29:24 i know 17:29:32 i added u already bhehe 17:30:23 oh? 17:30:27 --- part: MrReach left #forth 17:30:30 --- join: MrReach (mrreach@209.181.43.190) joined #forth 17:30:30 --- mode: ChanServ set mode: +o MrReach 17:30:36 hehe 17:31:13 cool, thanks 17:31:13 you have to identify yourself first before coming in....or tell chanserv to op your nick 17:31:59 another thing I learned while researching this stuff in the MSDN is that some of their technical writers think they're funny and clever when they really aren't 17:32:25 instead they end up looking like socially inept morons who should stick with technical writing. 17:32:32 lol 17:32:46 erm like i sed 17:32:47 microsoft 17:33:06 want to see a quote? 17:33:11 sure 17:33:25 * TheBlueWizard likes to be entertained :) 17:33:38 --- mode: I440r set mode: +o ult 17:34:00 this is a sub-note regarding an anacronym "GUID" ... 17:34:14 1. Pronounced goo-id similar to how you would say gooey. Perhaps this is why OLE can seem a little "sticky" at times. Pun definitely intended. 17:34:30 microsoft "where do you want to go today".... liunux "where do you want to go tomorrow"... freebsd "are you guys coming or what ?" 17:34:31 heheh 17:35:07 when I read that ... my first thought was that this guy needs to get a life. 17:36:02 I saw that quote somewhere in MSDN yeah...real lame yeah 17:37:11 that's in the MSDN under "Books/Inside OLE/Chapter 2: Objects and Interfaces/Oject Identity/Globally Unique Identifiers (GUIDs)" if you want to see it 17:38:15 yeah...I remember clicking on the hyperlink on GUID for some tech detail and saw that stupid blurb there 17:38:38 heh, he's the type of guy we used to invite to our beer parties so we could entertain ourselves by shooting spitwads at him when I was in college. 17:39:24 * TheBlueWizard grinz 17:39:41 or cover his face with ketchup when he passed out 17:40:05 or get one of our girlfriends to give him a lap-dance so we could watch him spooge himself 17:40:08 etc, etc 17:40:55 lol 17:40:57 (if you can't guess, I used to be the king of "Truth or Dare") 17:41:33 * TheBlueWizard wonders whether MrReach is a....err...he decides not to mention that 17:41:58 * MrReach grins, "Is a what?" 17:42:31 * TheBlueWizard whispers "BDSM?" 17:42:48 not really 17:42:56 k 17:43:06 although I can't say that I've ever had a change to explore that type of lifestyle 17:43:23 never had a GF who wanted to be tied up or beaten, or whipped, or whatever 17:43:43 and *I'm* not going to volunteer for that crap 17:43:54 lol 17:43:59 but picture this ... 17:44:24 here's this poor schmuck ... he's 25 and probably been layed twice 17:45:09 you get your buddies "10", drop-dead gorgeous girlfriend to take off her bra (slowly) and rub her tits in his face 17:45:41 * TheBlueWizard wonders who is this po' shmuck...the guy who wrote that lame line on GUID? 17:45:44 you know this guy WANTS to grope her in the worst possible way, but her boyfriend is standing over at the keg 17:46:34 so he keeps his hands to himself, as instructed, and you know you've given him fantasy material for the next 20 years 17:46:47 hmm .. 17:47:00 lol 17:47:29 Kraig Brockschmidt 17:47:42 that's who they say wrote "Inside OLE" anyway 17:48:25 hmm 17:48:51 * aaronl is away: dinner 17:49:47 yes, I do have a slightly sadistic sense of humor 17:50:25 the funniest part is that this guy will come to next week's kegger hoping to get tormented some more 17:50:39 lol 18:10:11 I'm going to see if I can build a forth Wiki 18:10:16 are there any now? 18:11:05 not that I know of 18:11:25 my IP is only semi-static, though 18:12:21 semi-static? whaddaya mean? 18:12:38 well, at present .... 18:13:08 I'm using USWest DSL, which generally gives a static ip, but it's not guaranteed to stay the same 18:13:20 hmm 18:13:29 to get static ip from USWest costs about $200/mo 18:14:13 yikes 18:14:21 but there are ISPs locally that give static IP for $3-5/mo, plus $19.95 ISP fees (that I pay to uswest anyway) 18:14:37 I just haven't moved service yet 18:14:51 * TheBlueWizard nods 18:15:32 unfortuanely, the Wiki software will prob be in TCL, too bad forth is generally too primitive to such an application in 18:15:47 to write such an application 18:16:36 need to support dynamic allocations for strings...I know.... 18:18:06 I might be able to have the wiki running in an hour or so, if you want to play with it 18:21:05 I am not planning on playing...just vegging out chatting....as a kind of relaxatioon/escape from the workload during the day 18:21:53 what doe you do for a living? 18:23:29 I work as a computer programmer, at least nominally...but these days I'm being charged with technical network security stuff, plus several other duties 18:25:22 heh, get shoved willy-nilly into network admin? 18:26:18 --- topic: set to 'FORTH IF HONK THEN' by aaronl 18:26:20 not exactly willy-nilly, but pretty much so yeah 18:31:40 also strictly speaking I am not a network admin....just a security officer of sort (to protect e-biz machines against hackers; we have received several hacking attempts....) 18:31:43 heh, can't be a hacker tracker without admin privs 18:33:17 yes and no....but yeah it is best that I have admin priv.....mgmt decision ....that's why I am looking for jobs.... 18:33:20 you don't care for the work? lots of pressure? 18:33:40 or are you saying the priveledge makes the job attractive to you? 18:34:47 damn right I don't care for the work....lots of pressure yes, though I can handle it.....I am in only cuz I need to earn money (I live in an apt) 18:43:31 MrReach, think you're so hot? check out http://www.cthulhusex.com :))) 18:44:14 ok 18:46:30 well I'll be damned ... I haven't heard anything from Delchi is over a year. I had no idea he was writing gothic romance. 18:46:51 Delchi? never heard of him 18:47:01 one of the authors 18:47:10 used to be a net buddie, met once 18:47:31 hmmm ... you might be interested to know he used to hang in #Wicca 18:48:15 I never visit #wicca...I know what Wicca is though 18:48:55 HAHAHAHA! 18:49:01 this stuff is too funny! 18:50:15 the CthulhuSex? oh yeah, it is a hoot! 18:51:16 um 18:51:22 hi kids 18:51:57 * TheBlueWizard blinks...."Um, yeah?" 18:52:09 greets, ult! 19:26:28 bye all 19:26:33 --- part: TheBlueWizard left #forth 19:57:54 --- join: edrx (edrx@copacabana-ttyS15.inx.com.br) joined #forth 19:58:58 --- quit: edrx ([x]chat) 20:43:36 --- nick: aaronl -> amibotornot 20:59:10 --- quit: ult (Ping timeout for ult[149.149.201.30]) 20:59:21 --- join: ult (ultima@149.149.201.30) joined #forth 21:01:54 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 21:02:12 --- quit: amibotornot (Read error to amibotornot[vitelus.com]: Connection reset by peer) 21:59:30 --- quit: aaronl (Read error to aaronl[vitelus.com]: EOF from client) 21:59:39 --- join: aaronl (aaronl@vitelus.com) joined #forth 22:04:01 --- quit: MrReach () 23:31:56 * aaronl is away: pft 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/00.12.05