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You can keep using GitHub but automatically [34]sync your GitHub releases to SourceForge quickly and easily with [35]this tool so your projects have a backup location, and get your project in front of SourceForge's nearly 30 million monthly users. It takes less than a minute. Get new users downloading your project releases today! [36]Sign up for the Slashdot newsletter! or [37]check out the new Slashdot job board to browse remote jobs or jobs in your area [38]× 170888165 story [39]Transportation [40]Mercedes Locks Better EV Engine Performance Behind Annoying Subscription Paywalls [41](techdirt.com) [42]192 Posted by [43]BeauHD on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:02PM from the pay-up-or-get-left-in-the-dust dept. Last year, BMW [44]announced plans to charge a $18 per month subscription for heated seats. Now, Mercedes is [45]considering making better EV engine performance an added subscription surcharge. "Mercedes-Benz electric vehicle owners in North America who want a little more power and speed can now buy 60 horsepower for just $60 a month or, on other models, 80 horsepower for $90 a month," reports [46]CNN. "They won't have to visit a Mercedes dealer to get the upgrade either, or even leave their own driveway. The added power, which will provide a nearly one second decrease in zero-to-60 acceleration, will be available through an over-the-air software patch." Techdirt reports: If you don't want to pay monthly, Mercedes will also let you pay a one time flat fee (usually several thousand dollars) to remove the artificial restrictions they've imposed on your engine. That's, of course, creating additional upward pricing funnel efforts on top of the industry's existing efforts to upsell you on a rotating crop of trims, tiers, and options you probably didn't want. It's not really clear that regulators have any interest in cracking down on charging dumb people extra for something they already owned and paid for. After all, ripping off gullible consumers is effectively now considered little more than creative marketing by a notable segment of government "leaders" (see: regulatory apathy over misleading hidden fees in everything from hotels to cable TV). apply tags__________ [47]← Related Links [48]→ [49]White House Proposes 30% Tax On Electricity Used For Crypto Mining [50]BMW Starts Selling Heated Seat Subscriptions for $18 a Month [51]Brazilian Frog Might Be the First Pollinating Amphibian Known To Science [52]Mercedes Locks Better EV Engine Performance Behind Annoying Subscription Paywalls [53]More | [54]Reply [55]Login [56]Mercedes Locks Better EV Engine Performance Behind Annoying Subscription Paywalls [57]Post [58]Load All Comments Full Abbreviated Hidden /Sea Score: 5 4 3 2 1 0 -1 [59]More | [60]Reply [61]Login Nickname: ____________________ Password: ____________________ [ ] Public Terminal __________________________________________________________________ Log In [62]Forgot your password? [63]Close [64]Close [65]Search 192 Comments [66]Log In/Create an Account Comments Filter: * [67]All * [68]Insightful * [69]Informative * [70]Interesting * [71]Funny The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. * [72]The only thing that'll stop this ([73]Score:2, Insightful) by [74]rsilvergun [75]( 571051 ) writes: is laws. + + [76]Re:The only thing that'll stop this ([77]Score:5, Insightful) by [78]Arethan [79]( 223197 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:06PM ([80]#63501091) [81]Journal or poor sales [82]Reply to This [83]Parent [84]Share [85]twitter [86]facebook [87]Share on Google+ [88]Flag as Inappropriate o o # # [89]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([90]Score:5, Insightful) by [91]dgatwood [92]( 11270 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:07PM ([93]#63501209) [94]Homepage [95]Journal Why? I think it is rather a good idea. In the past, if you have an S500 Mercedes Sedan, and wanted an S 65 AMG, you paid for a new car basically. It was unfeasible to just buy a new engine and have it installed. Now; you can effectively do that. You pay some more; you get a faster car. That is generally how the auto industry works! Only now the process is simple. It is a software solution not a hardware one. That is less waste in materials, components, and installation. That is a good thing. No, actually it is quite the opposite. Performance doesn't just come out of thin air. It comes from the physical capabilities of the hardware. This approach is wasting all the extra materials involved in making a more powerful motor. They could have made the hardware cheaper, lighter, and more energy efficient by not having it be capable of providing that extra power, but instead they made it more expensive, heavier, and less energy efficient. So you're paying paying for all of the materials and the R&D cost for more capable hardware, but getting none of the performance. You're literally buying hardware capable of delivering more performance, but the manufacturer is artificially limiting its performance and charging an extortion fee to get the full use of the hardware that you paid for. In no way is this a good thing, and we should absolutely not encourage this nonsense. It is bad for the environment, and if everyone did this, you'd be nickel-and-dimed to death on everything you buy. [96]Reply to This [97]Parent [98]Share [99]twitter [100]facebook [101]Share on Google+ [102]Flag as Inappropriate @ @ [103]Re: ([104]Score:2, Interesting) by [105]tlhIngan [106]( 30335 ) writes: No, actually it is quite the opposite. Performance doesn't just come out of thin air. It comes from the physical capabilities of the hardware. This approach is wasting all the extra materials involved in making a more powerful motor. They could have made the hardware cheaper, lighter, and more energy efficient by not having it be capable of providing that extra power, but instead they made it more expensive, heavier, and less energy efficient. So you're paying paying for all of the materials and the R&D - - [107]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([108]Score:5, Insightful) by [109]Bert64 [110]( 520050 ) writes: <[111]bert.slashdot@firenzee@com> on Saturday May 06, 2023 @12:43AM ([112]#63501317) [113]Homepage If they sell you a 2GHz cpu, they don't later promise you a software upgrade to 3GHz for a fee because that CPU has never been tested running at 3GHz and might not work. If they wanted to sell these later upgrades, they would need to test the CPU at the highest speed right up front, and they could not sell the units that fail at all. So the fact is you have hardware that the manufacturer knows full well will work at the higher speed, they are artificially limiting you from using it until you pay more. This is different from selling a product believed to be inferior at a lower cost, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. [114]Reply to This [115]Parent [116]Share [117]twitter [118]facebook [119]Share on Google+ [120]Flag as Inappropriate = = [121]Re: ([122]Score:3) by [123]jaa101 [124]( 627731 ) writes: If they sell you a 2GHz cpu, they don't later promise you a software upgrade to 3GHz for a fee because that CPU has never been tested running at 3GHz and might not work. It's worse than that. If there were higher-speed versions of your CPU available then you can be pretty sure your individual chip was tested at those higher speeds and failed. * = [125]Re: ([126]Score:2) by [127]thegarbz [128]( 1787294 ) writes: If they sell you a 2GHz cpu, they don't later promise you a software upgrade to 3GHz for a fee because that CPU has never been tested running at 3GHz and might not work. They don't offer you a software upgrade, but in many cases depending on what is happening in supply chains they very much do bin functionally tested higher parts at a lower performance rating because it often makes economic sense to do so. Whole companies exist that re-bin CPUs and GPUs and sell them to tweakers and overclockers. In some cases SI partners even do this as part of their normal production process to offer a better product than the vendor does (this happens in the GPU market). You pay for a speci * = * * [129]Re: ([130]Score:3) by [131]spikesahead [132]( 111032 ) writes: Possibly because it strongly incentivizes later owners of the vehicle jailbreaking the car and potentially loading dangerous unregulated software into it. This isn't a computer where some sweaty guy is going to blue-screen his overclocked machine and drop his sesh, people are going to die directly because of this choice and the choices that will result from it. + + [133]Re: ([134]Score:2) by [135]Admiral Krunch [136]( 6177530 ) writes: Yours was the best response so far. You have a good point about unintended secondary consequences. But people can already try to do that kind of thing anyway. There are probably orders of magnitude more people dying from cars due to other aspects of cars than this one. The same thing will happen when all cars get speed/power limited. It's a problem that will need to be solved in the future anyway. May as well start figuring it out now. Not sure what the solution will be. But I hope it's not "force cars to o * [137]Re: ([138]Score:3) by [139]dgatwood [140]( 11270 ) writes: they are artificially limiting you from using it until you pay more They are limiting your performance because you only want to give them limited money. No, that's not correct. It has nothing to do with how much money you are willing to give them. CPU manufacturers are incapable of making every CPU run at the maximum speed. So if everyone were willing to buy the fastest chips, some of them would still end up settling for a lower-speed chip, because the faster ones don't exist in those quantities. When you buy a chip rated at a lower speed than the maximum speed, that chip was pull from a bin that failed QA testing at a faster speed. They are giving you a + + [141]Re: ([142]Score:2, Insightful) by [143]Admiral Krunch [144]( 6177530 ) writes: No, that's not correct. It has nothing to do with how much money you are willing to give them. CPU manufacturers are incapable of making every CPU run at the maximum speed. So if everyone were willing to buy the fastest chips, some of them would still end up settling for a lower-speed chip, because the faster ones don't exist in those quantities. But there's still an infinite quantity of cars in this fantasy scenario? Wait and buy the CPU you want later after they make some more. Or buy the cheaper one. Same as with the limited number of cars being made. When you buy a chip rated at a lower speed than the maximum speed, that chip was pull from a bin that failed QA testing at a faster speed. They are giving you a discount because it isn't capable of running at a faster speed, and if they didn't do that, they would have to throw away those chips, because they don't work at the maximum speed. That's just being environmentally conscious. Of that chip was perfectly fine and nobody wanted to pay full price for it. But someone was happy to pay a lesser price for lesser performance. Why does anyone care either way? They get exactly what they wanted and paid for. How do you know what the chip is capable of? You didn't test it, they didn't o * [145]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([146]Score:2) by [147]q_e_t [148]( 5104099 ) writes: You must have missed companies selling chips with only some cores enabled, with the option to unlock more cores for a few. + * [149]Re: ([150]Score:2) by [151]Deal In One [152]( 6459326 ) writes: I think some of them will want to have their slightly more powerful / more expensive cars show that it's more ex with a slightly different model number. With a prefix or suffix to the model name / number. If everyone is driving X, how do you get to show that you got the better X ? + + [153]Re: ([154]Score:2) by [155]Admiral Krunch [156]( 6177530 ) writes: Exclusive colors is a good option. o * + + [157]Re: ([158]Score:2) by [159]Admiral Krunch [160]( 6177530 ) writes: What's the problem? You saved $1000. Or you bought the better car if you wanted passengers. Why is choice bad here? It's not like 1 year after your purchase they're changing the rules. You're getting exactly what you paid for. With the option to have something even better later. Why is this bad? o @ [161]Re: ([162]Score:2) by [163]thegarbz [164]( 1787294 ) writes: Performance doesn't just come out of thin air. False. Performance is an arbitrary thing you pay for from a specification. There was a whole industry (car chipping) that existed to extract more performance out of 100% identical parts you already had. This approach is wasting all the extra materials involved in making a more powerful motor. No this approach is simplifying extra materials in making a cheaper motor. Motor power may be limited by materials, but it has been *defined* by software since the first days of fuel injection. So you're paying paying for all of the materials and the R&D cost for more capable hardware, but getting none of the performance. No. I'm paying for the exact performance advertised to me. What goes on under the hood is none of my business. How th - - [165]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([166]Score:2) by [167]q_e_t [168]( 5104099 ) writes: It still doesn't come out of thin air, but typically at the expense of component lifetime and reliability. = = [169]Re: ([170]Score:2) by [171]Admiral Krunch [172]( 6177530 ) writes: It still doesn't come out of thin air, but typically at the expense of component lifetime and reliability. So pay more or less according to your wishes. Why is having a choice so bad here? Want a more reliable slightly slower cheaper car. Buy that one. Want the less reliable faster one, buy that instead. Only difference is if you bought the slow one, you can still change your mind and upgrade it without having to buy a whole new car. How is that not better? * @ [173]Re: ([174]Score:2) by [175]DarkOx [176]( 621550 ) writes: Performance doesn't just come out of thin air. It comes from the physical capabilities of the hardware. This approach is wasting all the extra materials involved in making a more powerful motor. Are you an electro-automotive engineer? No me either. So I don't know but there is more than one dimension for performance and operational characteristics here. These are not pure drag-cars or something, but touring cars. They have to be capable of sustained high speed operation. Lets say your battery system and power train have to be able to discharge at N and apply force F to the wheels for you to be able to run down the autobahn at 90KPH. Maybe it takes 2(N) to provide comfortable acceleration but realis - @ [177]Re: ([178]Score:2) by [179]Deal In One [180]( 6459326 ) writes: And if you bought a newer / more powerful car, it's a one time expense (after trading in your current car), instead of monthly subscriptions. At least until the the manufacturer decides not to support it any longer due to a different business model / expenses of servers, etc. So basically renting the extra power until the manufacturer decides they don't want to anymore. No thank you. - @ [181]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([182]Score:2) by [183]q_e_t [184]( 5104099 ) writes: Also, the issue of model discrimination based on motor size is probably fairly soluble for EVs as there is more capacity for modularity than in ICEV. That is, want a bigger motor, get one swapped in, potentially. It's more effort and importantly an upfront cost compared to a software unlock, so modular physical upgrades would probably have low take up. - @ [185]Re: ([186]Score:2) by [187]drinkypoo [188]( 153816 ) writes: Performance doesn't just come out of thin air. It comes from the physical capabilities of the hardware. This approach is wasting all the extra materials involved in making a more powerful motor. Often the question is asked "why don't EVs have a transmission" and the answer is that it's both cheaper and more efficient (to say nothing of more reliable) to just have a bigger motor than to have a gearbox with more speeds. You pay a minuscule penalty for having a bigger motor than you need, unlike an ICE, where the penalty is massive. So EVs already have bigger motors than they need at the top end, to serve the needs at the bottom end. The limitation on performance is then not the motor, but the battery - @ [189]Re: ([190]Score:2) by [191]Ol Olsoc [192]( 1175323 ) writes: No, actually it is quite the opposite. Performance doesn't just come out of thin air. It comes from the physical capabilities of the hardware. This approach is wasting all the extra materials involved in making a more powerful motor. They could have made the hardware cheaper, lighter, and more energy efficient by not having it be capable of providing that extra power, but instead they made it more expensive, heavier, and less energy efficient. So you're paying paying for all of the materials and the R&D cost for more capable hardware, but getting none of the performance. You're literally buying hardware capable of delivering more performance, but the manufacturer is artificially limiting its performance and charging an extortion fee to get the full use of the hardware that you paid for. In no way is this a good thing, and we should absolutely not encourage this nonsense. It is bad for the environment, and if everyone did this, you'd be nickel-and-dimed to death on everything you buy. The manufacturers are trying to figure out how to turn EVs into the revenue producing stream that the IC engines are. Often overlooked is the fact that overall, an EV has less parts than an IC engine, and many of those parts don't require the same, or anywhere near the amount of maintenance the myriad of parts on a IC engine. So the manufacturers are dealing with decreasing revenue, and dealers will suffer as well. But charging extra for features that are already there? It is a real dick move and no doubt - @ [193]You're not just buying it, you're towing it around ([194]Score:2) by [195]wonkavader [196]( 605434 ) writes: You're not just buying the extra hardware and not getting the capability, you're towing all that extra hardware around for every mile. This sort of model makes sense to the company, and it won't bother customers for a while, but in a few years, customers will begin to understand EVs better, and to better understand EV efficiency. And that loss of mileage per kilowatt is going to start to nag at them and piss them off. Like, really piss them off. And not like in a printer -- just once when you buy it. It'll p - @ - - [197]Re: ([198]Score:2) by [199]Darinbob [200]( 1142669 ) writes: Plenty of people bitched about IBM over this issue. Also, the mainframes were leased, not outright purchased, so it's also a very different issue. = = [201]Re: ([202]Score:2) by [203]dgatwood [204]( 11270 ) writes: Plenty of people bitched about IBM over this issue. Also, the mainframes were leased, not outright purchased, so it's also a very different issue. More importantly, approximately nobody uses mainframes anymore, and dubious pricing by mainframe vendors was almost certainly one of the factors that drove people to build clusters instead. So yeah, saying "...but IBM did this and got away with it..." is not a particularly compelling argument. * - [205]Re: ([206]Score:2) by [207]nukenerd [208]( 172703 ) writes: IBM did this model with mainframes for decades, and nobody complained. They did complain. Microsoft did it with Windows NT as well. = @ - - [209]Re: ([210]Score:2) by [211]dgatwood [212]( 11270 ) writes: So you're paying paying for all of the materials and the R&D cost for more capable hardware Nope. You are saving all the R&D costs (and manufacturing costs, storage costs, training costs and distribution costs)of making X different versions of the hardware by making just one. That's not necessarily true. Yes, it is true if the companies are starting from scratch and these are the first EVs they've ever built. But otherwise, they are likely to have older, slower motors already available. Building a newer, faster motor, however, will always involve extra R&D costs. They are giving you the best hardware available. And letting you choose how much of it you are willing to pay to use. And letting you upgrade at any time. What's not to like. They are giving you overbuilt hardware that gets worse energy economy because it is overbuilt. That's what's not to like. This is a waste of natural resources, this increases road damage because of weight, this = - = = [213]Re: ([214]Score:3) by [215]dgatwood [216]( 11270 ) writes: This has happened before in the car arena (e.g. Tesla doesn't make all those different battery sizes, they just limit how much can be used of the bigger ones) but they don't announce it to the world and ask consumers to pay a monthly ransom to use the full battery amount. AFAIK, there are only two times Tesla did anything like this (other than the seat heaters, which AFAIK they eventually turned on for everyone), and neither is actually comparable: * Tesla briefly had a run of 60D cars that used 75D batteries. This is actually different in several ways: + This was a temporary situation that applied only to vehicles built during roughly a 5-month transition period from roughly early May to early October of 2016. + The battery is a wear item, and wears more at a higher state of cha * = [217]Re: ([218]Score:2) by [219]Joce640k [220]( 829181 ) writes: This has happened before in the car arena (e.g. Tesla doesn't make all those different battery sizes, they just limit how much can be used of the bigger ones) but they don't announce it to the world and ask consumers to pay a monthly ransom to use the full battery amount. It happens in the gasoline engine arena, too. Manufacturers have been selling the same engine with different power "options" for as long as I can remember (ie. since the 1980s). The only new thing here is the subscription model. * * + + [221]fuck people are stupid ([222]Score:2) by [223]Admiral Krunch [224]( 6177530 ) writes: That's fucking nothing like making a bunch of high-power engines and then charging people extra for you to seal up the airholes you drilled in when the car was on the dealer's lot. Why do you try and frame is as sealing up holes you drilled? When it's obvious all cars are capable of the best? They are adding some holes if you're cheap and don't want to pay for the best version sitting right in front of you. Of do you imagine they let you test drive the broken version and promise. "pay more, it will go faster, promise. But we can't show you". o # [225]Re: ([226]Score:3) by [227]narcc [228]( 412956 ) writes: This isn't an "upgrade" by any stretch of the imagination. It's more like extortion: "pay us or we'll cripple your engine". This should be illegal. We need real right-to-repair legislation now. @ # [229]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([230]Score:2) by [231]Fons_de_spons [232]( 1311177 ) writes: What about: keep paying our we neuter your car. @ # [233]Re: ([234]Score:2) by [235]Duds [236]( 100634 ) writes: A better analogy though is you've all pay for S-65s.... just only 1/3rd of you got them. If every car is capable of those speeds then it already is the expensive version. @ + [237]Re: ([238]Score:2) by [239]Powercntrl [240]( 458442 ) writes: is laws. Umm, you're basically talking about making the entire concept of in-app purchases illegal. Yes, it sucks ass to have to pay to flip a Boolean variable to enable code already on your device to do the needful, but there's nothing inherently unlawful about that. Thing is, most intangible products that you purchase these days are ultimately just some flag in a database saying you're now allowed access to something. You're splitting hairs if you think it makes a huge difference whether a bit is being flipped on o + [241]Re: The only thing that'll stop this ([242]Score:2) by [243]Fons_de_spons [244]( 1311177 ) writes: or a few neat hacking tricks. o + [245]Re: ([246]Score:2) by [247]VeryFluffyBunny [248]( 5037285 ) writes: Laws? Yeah, something like right-to-repair would put an end to this kind of thing, i.e. "owners" would be able to permanently fix whatever's hobbling the car themselves or get someone else to do it for them cheaply. Additionally, broad consumer protection laws to prevent the kinds of bait-and-switch, deceptive pricing, & overcharging scams that seem to be commonplace in north America. The "price" needs to be upfront & the final price you actually hand over at the end of the transaction & the p o + [249]Re: ([250]Score:2) by [251]thegarbz [252]( 1787294 ) writes: Laws against economies of scale driving down prices for consumers through simplification of design? Tell me what about this is morally wrong for you? a) You're getting exactly what you pay for. Specifications are written and dollars are paid to get those specifications. b) You have a product. If you want to hack it for extra power, go ahead. c) This isn't very different the process of chipping a car for more power out of the existing engine, the only difference is the vendor is providing you the opportunity to o + [253]Re: ([254]Score:2) by [255]Joce640k [256]( 829181 ) writes: is laws. Why do you care how people spend their money? If you want to start controlling how much value they get for their $$$ then you're going to have to ban just about every product on the market. o + o o # # [257]Re: ([258]Score:2) by [259]Tom [260]( 822 ) writes: An example from Tesla is the rear heated seats. It would have been more expensive for them to make special seats without heaters than to just use the same seats on the higher- and lower-end variants. ... I hate subscriptions, but I totally understand why manufacturers software-disable features, rather than paying more to remove features in hardware, or skipping out on having price tiers altogether. If you have these seats in your car, why are they disabled? The honest thing to do would be the manufacturer going: "We planned to have heated back seats as a higher-tier feature, but it turns out it's cheaper for us to just have it in all cars. So here you go everyone, heated seats for everyone because anyway we're going to have to build them into all cars." @ @ [261]Re: What lawmaker would want to stop this? ([262]Score:2) by [263]q_e_t [264]( 5104099 ) writes: It would result in a higher initial car price. The current price assumes that some proportion will buy the heated seat unlock, so the average revenue per car sold is higher than the sticker price. Without charging for the seat heating unlock, that would be the base price, which might then reduce sales, harming economies of scale, requiring another hike in sticker price. Note that I'm not advocating for such a pricing structure, just noting the logic and economics of it. - * [265]Dear Mercedes. #ChuckYouFarley ([266]Score:5, Interesting) by [267]Chas [268]( 5144 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:08PM ([269]#63501093) [270]Homepage [271]Journal Seriously. Someone charges you $60-100K for a car, then tries to nickel and dime you for $20-60/month for control over YOUR CAR? No. Way to make EV even LESS desirable. [272]Reply to This [273]Share [274]twitter [275]facebook [276]Share on Google+ [277]Flag as Inappropriate + + [278]Re: ([279]Score:2) by [280]sean-it-all [281]( 10101856 ) writes: And yet people will fork over the money. Technically the the lease company didn't buy it at retail. This is going after the player driving the vehicle. While it has dropped, we can probably say 17% lease the vehicle and don't own it [282]https://www.forbes.com/sites/j... [forbes.com]. If I didn't have to fork over the 100K for the vehicle and it's a rental then the 10% extra for the monthly rent isn't going to break the bank. I think this is going to be adopted by all vehicles including EV where possible. o + [283]Re: Dear Mercedes. #ChuckYouFarley ([284]Score:2) by [285]Fons_de_spons [286]( 1311177 ) writes: I think they need to add a blue checkmark next to the logo of paying customers. o + [287]Re: ([288]Score:2, Insightful) by [289]thegarbz [290]( 1787294 ) writes: You're not being nickel and dimed. You're getting exact the performance you paid for. By all means, hack it to get more performance out of it. That's a practice as old as the combustion engine, and the introduction of fuel injection even created a business around software only hacks to do that. o + [291]Re: ([292]Score:2) by [293]Deal In One [294]( 6459326 ) writes: Another thought, if you are paying a price for a over specced vehicle, since you don't plan on paying the extra to unlock the extra performance, does your vehicle last longer / less maintenance issues? After all the motors, batteries, etc are specced for X performance, but you are only using it at 80% of that specced-for performance. Less wear and tear, less other issues maybe? o * [295]Could be a problem ([296]Score:3) by [297]rossdee [298]( 243626 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:12PM ([299]#63501107) for Lewis Hamilton and George Russell [300]Reply to This [301]Share [302]twitter [303]facebook [304]Share on Google+ [305]Flag as Inappropriate + * [306]Hey! Business needs to make a profit. But! ([307]Score:3) by [308]oldgraybeard [309]( 2939809 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:13PM ([310]#63501117) in this case screw'em! [311]Reply to This [312]Share [313]twitter [314]facebook [315]Share on Google+ [316]Flag as Inappropriate + * [317]Double Dipping ([318]Score:5, Insightful) by [319]Insanity Defense [320]( 1232008 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:13PM ([321]#63501119) First they sell you the car and then they RENT it too you too. Wonderful [322]Reply to This [323]Share [324]twitter [325]facebook [326]Share on Google+ [327]Flag as Inappropriate + + [328]Re: ([329]Score:2) by [330]thegarbz [331]( 1787294 ) writes: Only if you want to rent it. They offer you the complete sale as well. If you don't like it simply don't do it. It is that easy. o o [332]Re: ([333]Score:2) by [334]gtall [335]( 79522 ) writes: Only if you want to NOW. Sooner or later, these companies will start feeding you a sticker price to get into the seat but you'll have a monthly fee to drive it anywhere. # o [336]Re: Double Dipping ([337]Score:2) by [338]Carewolf [339]( 581105 ) writes: There is no option to buy the seat heating and multiple other features only the engine.. Don't defend psychopathy # * [340]microtransactions ([341]Score:3) by [342]Anonymouse Cowtard [343]( 6211666 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:13PM ([344]#63501121) [345]Homepage They're being short sighted on these subscription types. I'd like to have a Mercedes in which I could gain certain features in microtransactions. For example, it's forecast to be cold tomorrow and I have to start work early. So give me one hour of heated seats from 6am. I have a hot date that night. It's going well so I tap in an extra 60HP as we're walking to the car for the drive back to her place. Vrrm-vrmmm! The hourly rate can be set to make it more enticing for the consumer to upgrade to a monthly plan, or the features can be used occasionally at a higher rate. [346]Reply to This [347]Share [348]twitter [349]facebook [350]Share on Google+ [351]Flag as Inappropriate + + [352]Re: ([353]Score:2) by [354]dgatwood [355]( 11270 ) writes: And gamify it so you have to buy tokens, and pay with tokens. No, thanks. o o [356]Re: ([357]Score:2) by [358]Dictator For Life [359]( 8829 ) writes: Exactly! "Just a minute, sweetheart, I have to put a couple more tokens in the coin slot here in my Mercedes." No thanks. # o [360]Re: microtransactions ([361]Score:2) by [362]q_e_t [363]( 5104099 ) writes: Ah, drive over the speed limit and trunk size reduces? # + [364]Re: ([365]Score:3) by [366]Bert64 [367]( 520050 ) writes: Since the cheapest model comes with all these disabled features, the hardware to support them is physically present and you've already paid for it. Making you pay again to use the stuff you've already paid for and are paying for the energy to move around is ridiculous. If you just want occasional use, you can join a car club and rent use of the whole vehicle on an hourly basis. When you're not renting it, you don't have the physical vehicle at all and someone else can use it. o o [368]Re: ([369]Score:2) by [370]Admiral Krunch [371]( 6177530 ) writes: Since the cheapest model comes with all these disabled features, the hardware to support them is physically present and you've already paid for it. But you didn't pay for it. Instead you obviously saved money by not paying for it. Making you pay again to use the stuff you've already paid for and are paying for the energy to move around is ridiculous. You didn't pay for it. You certainly didn't pay them all the extra R&D costs to design an inferior version. Or the added costs to supply 2 different hardware versions. Why did you buy this version to carry around the extra stuff? Were you tricked somehow? Did you not understand you'd be carrying around excess baggage when you bought the car? # # [372]Re: ([373]Score:2) by [374]codebase7 [375]( 9682010 ) writes: But you didn't pay for it. Instead you obviously saved money by not paying for it. He did pay for it. He paid the price on the sticker at the dealership. That price included legal ownership of all of the physical parts on that specific car. You certainly didn't pay them all the extra R&D costs to design an inferior version. Or the added costs to supply 2 different hardware versions. No they did because they wanted to sell all of those extra bits at a loss. Including the extra added cost of all the DRM crap. Which will be easily bypassed by the legal owner following some guide on the internet. If they wanted to have people pay more money for "R&D costs to design an inferior version" then they should have included that in the s @ + [376]Re: ([377]Score:2) by [378]narcc [379]( 412956 ) writes: Why stop there? Skip the buying completely and reap the rewards! Just rent what you want. Doing a DIY project? Rent a truck. Have a hot date? Rent a fancy sports car. Vrrm-vrmmm! When you figure out why that's a stupid idea, you'll be enlightened. o o [380]Re: microtransactions ([381]Score:2) by [382]q_e_t [383]( 5104099 ) writes: It makes a lot of sense to do something like rent a truck or trailer for a DIY project rather than try to find something that is simultaneously a pickup and a roadster. Owning one of each will be more expensive than buying something middle-of-the-road (pun not intended) and renting something specialist now and then. # + [384]Re: ([385]Score:3) by [386]Misagon [387]( 1135 ) writes: You forgot to end your post with a "/s" o + [388]Re: microtransactions ([389]Score:2) by [390]q_e_t [391]( 5104099 ) writes: How much to unlock the glove compartment and cup holders? o + [392]Re: ([393]Score:2) by [394]gtall [395]( 79522 ) writes: She just think you are a showoff and going back to her place is where she drops you off her radar. o * [396]just an little bit of DRM to use DMCA block repair ([397]Score:2) by [398]Joe_Dragon [399]( 2206452 ) writes: just an little bit of DRM to use DMCA block any and all non dealer repair + * [400]Given the cost of a Mercedes ([401]Score:4, Funny) by [402]scourfish [403]( 573542 ) writes: <[404]scourfish@@@yahoo...com> on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:33PM ([405]#63501163) I don't think their customer base is hurting for money when it comes to the extra cost. [406]Reply to This [407]Share [408]twitter [409]facebook [410]Share on Google+ [411]Flag as Inappropriate + + [412]Re:Given the cost of a Mercedes ([413]Score:5, Insightful) by [414]Tom [415]( 822 ) writes: on Saturday May 06, 2023 @03:45AM ([416]#63501545) [417]Homepage [418]Journal This isn't aimed at people buying a Mercedes new from the factory. It's so they can profit from the 2nd hand market. [419]Reply to This [420]Parent [421]Share [422]twitter [423]facebook [424]Share on Google+ [425]Flag as Inappropriate o * [426]I'm sorry Dave, I cannot take you to that protest ([427]Score:3) by [428]aberglas [429]( 991072 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:44PM ([430]#63501181) This is coming. Permanent tracking and forbidden zones. For national security. [431]Reply to This [432]Share [433]twitter [434]facebook [435]Share on Google+ [436]Flag as Inappropriate + * [437]If users patch their control units ... ([438]Score:3) by [439]laughingskeptic [440]( 1004414 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:46PM ([441]#63501187) will Mercedes sue them for violating terms of service? I would kind of like to see the outcome of a case like this. [442]Reply to This [443]Share [444]twitter [445]facebook [446]Share on Google+ [447]Flag as Inappropriate + + [448]that is there plan to force you to use the dealer ([449]Score:3) by [450]Joe_Dragon [451]( 2206452 ) writes: that is there plan to force you to use the dealer for any and all service. o + [452]Re: ([453]Score:2) by [454]whoever57 [455]( 658626 ) writes: This is why manufacturers oppose the right to repair laws. o * [456]You will own nothing and be happy ([457]Score:3) by [458]Crashmarik [459]( 635988 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @10:48PM ([460]#63501193) [461]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] Funny I used to laugh at conspiracy theorists, these days it seems they have read the spoilers [462]Reply to This [463]Share [464]twitter [465]facebook [466]Share on Google+ [467]Flag as Inappropriate + * [468]Interesting take ([469]Score:2) by [470]bug_hunter [471]( 32923 ) writes: I wonder if whoever wrote this: >> It's not really clear that regulators have any interest in cracking down on charging dumb people extra for something they already owned and paid for. After all, ripping off gullible consumers is effectively now considered little more than creative marketing by a notable segment of government "leaders" ever bought a CPU clocked higher than the absolute base level. The consumers in this scenario aren't gullible or dumb - they're not being fooled, they are being offered so + + [472]Re: ([473]Score:2) by [474]NotEmmanuelGoldstein [475]( 6423622 ) writes: ... CPU clocked higher than the absolute base level. What do you mean by "base level"? Usually CPUs are mass-produced with one die (so many p-cores, so many e-cores, so much cache). They then test them and see how fast they can go. Random variations in manufacturing mean they don't all work at the same speed. That randomness means the number of CPUs that work at maximum speed is smaller than the number of CPUs that work at a slow speed. Because there is higher demand for the CPUs that go fast, which also in limited supply, they increase the price. This o + [476]Re: ([477]Score:2) by [478]AntisocialNetworker [479]( 5443888 ) writes: It's not even a stupid system, and this goes way back. It's the standard problem of product where the intellectual property (IP) is the most expensive part. The result is an component whose material and manufacturing costs are dwarfed by the development. The most typical product here is the CPU chip. Once the design is done, a plant just churns them out. At which point the company says "Most customers don't need the 64 processor version; how much will it cost to develop a cheap 16 processor CPU?". And o * [480]Tesla changed the power levels of early Model 3s. ([481]Score:2) by [482]whoever57 [483]( 658626 ) writes: The early Model 3s (LR RWD) were recorded doing 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, then an update nerfed the 060 time and it went to over 5 seconds, then in another update, Tesla kindly set it back to just under 5 seconds. + * [484]Consumer protection laws need revising + right to ([485]Score:5, Interesting) by [486]felixrising [487]( 1135205 ) writes: on Friday May 05, 2023 @11:55PM ([488]#63501269) The idea of locking away the full capabilities of the car I buy should come with a Caveat subscriptor, that if the car has say 100kw battery but the seller locks away 25% of that behind a subscription, then the owner should be reimbursed for having to drag around 25% dead weight... because you are paying to transport it everywhere with you. Similarly locking up the full capacity of the engine, or heated seats, or whatever means you shouldn't have to pay to maintain that thing any more, it's clearly a leased item and the maintenance of it should fall to the lessor. I would definitely vote for this. We're basically barreling down a road where we don't really own anything and just lease or rent it. It's a slippery slope that consumer protection bodies should be all over. [489]Reply to This [490]Share [491]twitter [492]facebook [493]Share on Google+ [494]Flag as Inappropriate + + [495]Re: Consumer protection laws need revising + right ([496]Score:2) by [497]DrLudicrous [498]( 607375 ) writes: Donâ(TM)t get to own things outright? I for one welcome neofeudalism! All hail our corporate lords, who only have our best interests in mind! o + [499]Re: ([500]Score:2) by [501]Admiral Krunch [502]( 6177530 ) writes: The idea of locking away the full capabilities of the car I buy should come with a Caveat subscriptor, that if the car has say 100kw battery but the seller locks away 25% of that behind a subscription, then the owner should be reimbursed for having to drag around 25% dead weight... because you are paying to transport it everywhere with you. You know you can just buy a different car right? Walking or public transport might also be an option. Similarly locking up the full capacity of the engine, or heated seats, or whatever means you shouldn't have to pay to maintain that thing any more, it's clearly a leased item and the maintenance of it should fall to the lessor. Don't want to pay to maintain something. Don't buy that thing. o o [503]Re: ([504]Score:2) by [505]Tom [506]( 822 ) writes: Don't want to pay to maintain something. Don't buy that thing. They don't offer that as an option. If you could pay $500 up front OR take it on subscription for $20/month we might be talking. But that's not how it works. # # [507]Re: ([508]Score:2) by [509]Firethorn [510]( 177587 ) writes: They might not, but odds are they're not the only provider, you know? It's not like they're a utility where you only have one company. As I understand it, John Deere is losing lots of market share due to their DRM crap. Farmers buy, get burned, go to either older models without it or a different company. @ # [511]Re: ([512]Score:2) by [513]Admiral Krunch [514]( 6177530 ) writes: What? They don't give you the option of not buying their car? Really? @ @ [515]Re: ([516]Score:2) by [517]Tom [518]( 822 ) writes: Sure, I can buy a different car. What is your strawman argument trying to accomplish? - - [519]Re: ([520]Score:2) by [521]Admiral Krunch [522]( 6177530 ) writes: How is that a strawman? You don't like something. Don't buy it. Why the need to stop others from buying it? = o [523]Re: Consumer protection laws need revising + right ([524]Score:2) by [525]Fons_de_spons [526]( 1311177 ) writes: Window seats will only be for subscribers? /s # # [527]Re: ([528]Score:2) by [529]Admiral Krunch [530]( 6177530 ) writes: Window seats will only be for subscribers? /s You'll have to pay extra for the actual window. And a fee each time you raise or lower it. Be sure to put a little sticker over the eye-tracking sensor so you don't get charged for glancing out of it by mistake. @ + [531]Re: ([532]Score:2) by [533]short [534]( 66530 ) writes: "100kw battery" - battery capacity unit is kWh. kW is power (of a motor). 100kWh battery can drive one hour with 100kW of motor power or two hours with 50kW of motor power. o + [535]Re: ([536]Score:2) by [537]mobby_6kl [538]( 668092 ) writes: You're reimbursed by paying less for the car. o * [539]This isn't new ([540]Score:2) by [541]OverlordQ [542]( 264228 ) writes: Every new car is like this. New model years boast increase HP and Torque over previous model years even though it's the exact same powertrain. All the manufacturers have done is tweak the ECU. + * [543]Maybe some justification for it ([544]Score:2) by [545]Chuck Chunder [546]( 21021 ) writes: Running the battery/motors harder might mean they are more at risk of needing warranty replacement, so there may be an extra "cost" to cover. I'm sure there is a decent profit margin though. + * [547]I would have zero problem with this... ([548]Score:2) by [549]Miles_O'Toole [550]( 5152533 ) writes: ...if there were ironclad, comprehensive right to repair laws on the books that would ensure it was absolutely OK for you to apply a patch some bright spark had coded that would do exactly the same thing for a fraction of the price. Oh...and the corporate grifters couldn't void your warranty unless they could prove the "outlaw" patch caused some kind of damage. + * [551]Vote with you wallet! ([552]Score:2) by [553]jarle.aase [554]( 1440081 ) writes: Just say no. It's that simple. + * [555]Used to dream of owning a Mercedes or a BMW ([556]Score:2) by [557]diffract [558]( 7165501 ) writes: but with all the microtransactions and subscriptions that come with them, maintenance is no longer the only issue that steers me away. + + [559]Re: ([560]Score:2) by [561]excelsior_gr [562]( 969383 ) writes: If you ever get around to it, and if Benz gets their head out of their ass, stay away from BMW. They're junk. o o [563]Re: Used to dream of owning a Mercedes or a BMW ([564]Score:2) by [565]diffract [566]( 7165501 ) writes: Thanks for the tip, as I said I'm aware the frequency and cost of maintenance are high for these. German cars in the 80-90s were very reliable. Now not so much # * [567]anything AAS ([568]Score:2) by [569]Tom [570]( 822 ) writes: "The Right to Read" was right, but didn't think far enough. We're fast moving into a world where anything becomes a "service". Which is just business buzzword for companies wanting a continuous revenue stream instead of ordinary sales. This is evil. It means everyone becomes a constant slave. It means when you hit tough times in your life you can't scale down anymore by relying on what is already yours and cutting out expenses you can go without for a while. Even if these "rental features" allow you to cance + * [571]Tesla has done this for years ([572]Score:2) by [573]MarkWegman [574]( 2553338 ) writes: I have a Tesla Mod 3 AWD. I did not buy the performance model, but my car has engines of the same design, though Tesla claims they sort engines so maybe the ones that go on P have slightly better specs. The P can accelerate from 0-60 one second faster than my car. A year or so after I bought the car, Tesla offered an over the air update to give me roughly half the difference, for a one time fee. The fee is considerably less than half the cost difference to a P. The P also has better brake pads and some + * [575]Why is this a problem? ([576]Score:2) by [577]misnohmer [578]( 1636461 ) writes: People buy gaming consoles like Playstation, or Xbox, they don't throw fits over over-the-air downloads they pay for (games, in-game purchases, etc). Why is this different on the car? The game console you own is fully capable of playing all of todays and even future titles, it doesn't mean you are entitles to access them for free. Your Android or iOS phone that you own is fully capable of running all the apps, again, it doesn't make you entitled to use them for free. If you don't like the amount of power t + + [579]Re: ([580]Score:2) by [581]votsalo [582]( 5723036 ) writes: This is a good point, but there is a big difference: When you pay for an app for your device, you pay for the work that was put in making the app software. You have a choice on installing apps from different vendors or even make your own apps (at least in the case of Android). In the case of improving the car performance or heating the seats, you do not really buy software. And if you did, you don't have the choice of installing your own seat-warming software, or buying it from a third party. I wish mo o * [583]Remember folks ([584]Score:2) by [585]quonset [586]( 4839537 ) writes: Inflation is caused by rising wages and has nothing to do with [587]companies gouging [businessinsider.com] people for [588]every pfennig [kanebridgenews.com] they can. + * There may be more comments in this discussion. Without JavaScript enabled, you might want to [589]turn on Classic Discussion System in your preferences instead. 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